Re: Rudder issues with Bobcat/TinyCat
Jay, I forgot to mention that part about releasing the sail after a
tack and allowing the boat to fall off a little bit more than you
might be used to, so I am glad that you figured that one out.
As far as the boats windward ability, I don't know of any way to get
the boat to point as high as a sloop rigged or more modern cat rig,
(if anyone does, please chime in I would like to hear). I have found
that it seems to work better not sheeting the sail in and trying to
pinch up as much as you might with a sloop. It seems that by
allowing the sail to be out a little more you gain some boat speed
and achieve a little more lift. I usually sail with boom over the
rear corner of the transom, while I am going to windward. Sailing
this way I have usually been able to get where I am going and I am
fairly content with it's ability.
Bobby Chilek
tack and allowing the boat to fall off a little bit more than you
might be used to, so I am glad that you figured that one out.
As far as the boats windward ability, I don't know of any way to get
the boat to point as high as a sloop rigged or more modern cat rig,
(if anyone does, please chime in I would like to hear). I have found
that it seems to work better not sheeting the sail in and trying to
pinch up as much as you might with a sloop. It seems that by
allowing the sail to be out a little more you gain some boat speed
and achieve a little more lift. I usually sail with boom over the
rear corner of the transom, while I am going to windward. Sailing
this way I have usually been able to get where I am going and I am
fairly content with it's ability.
Bobby Chilek
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
>
> Jay says:
> "The trick is to sheet out as the wind crosses the bow. That will
stop the
> wind from turning the boat back up before the tack is complete.
>
> Once the boat has turned sufficiently, sheet in, but hold the tiller
> amidships. The boat will start to turn, but it will also
accelerate. Once
> it has picked up enough speed, you can steer with the rudder again,
and all
> will be well."
>
> It sounds exactly the same as the way I sail Micro. Micro has a lot
more weight but also a lot more windage. You might try falling off a
bit before coming about so you can accelerate to the point where you
slack off the main.
>
>
> MylesJ
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jay says:
"The trick is to sheet out as the wind crosses the bow. That will stop the
wind from turning the boat back up before the tack is complete.
Once the boat has turned sufficiently, sheet in, but hold the tiller
amidships. The boat will start to turn, but it will also accelerate. Once
it has picked up enough speed, you can steer with the rudder again, and all
will be well."
It sounds exactly the same as the way I sail Micro. Micro has a lot more weight but also a lot more windage. You might try falling off a bit before coming about so you can accelerate to the point where you slack off the main.
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"The trick is to sheet out as the wind crosses the bow. That will stop the
wind from turning the boat back up before the tack is complete.
Once the boat has turned sufficiently, sheet in, but hold the tiller
amidships. The boat will start to turn, but it will also accelerate. Once
it has picked up enough speed, you can steer with the rudder again, and all
will be well."
It sounds exactly the same as the way I sail Micro. Micro has a lot more weight but also a lot more windage. You might try falling off a bit before coming about so you can accelerate to the point where you slack off the main.
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I want to share what I've learned over the last few sails.
As I mentioned before, the boat slows down a lot during the tack, which
reduces rudder effectiveness. When the sail fills on the new tack, the boat
tries to turn to windward, but the rudder can't counter that effect.
The first mistake is to try to steer against that turning force. You'll
just slow the boat and make the rudder do even less.
The trick is to sheet out as the wind crosses the bow. That will stop the
wind from turning the boat back up before the tack is complete.
Once the boat has turned sufficiently, sheet in, but hold the tiller
amidships. The boat will start to turn, but it will also accelerate. Once
it has picked up enough speed, you can steer with the rudder again, and all
will be well.
I haven't tried again to tack up a very narrow channel, but everywhere else,
I've been fine now that I've learned this quirk.
If the boat could point a little higher when close hauled, it would reduce
the severity of this problem: you wouldn't have to turn quite as far before
the boat can sail normally. I think that even 5 degrees better windward
performance would help a lot.
-Jay
As I mentioned before, the boat slows down a lot during the tack, which
reduces rudder effectiveness. When the sail fills on the new tack, the boat
tries to turn to windward, but the rudder can't counter that effect.
The first mistake is to try to steer against that turning force. You'll
just slow the boat and make the rudder do even less.
The trick is to sheet out as the wind crosses the bow. That will stop the
wind from turning the boat back up before the tack is complete.
Once the boat has turned sufficiently, sheet in, but hold the tiller
amidships. The boat will start to turn, but it will also accelerate. Once
it has picked up enough speed, you can steer with the rudder again, and all
will be well.
I haven't tried again to tack up a very narrow channel, but everywhere else,
I've been fine now that I've learned this quirk.
If the boat could point a little higher when close hauled, it would reduce
the severity of this problem: you wouldn't have to turn quite as far before
the boat can sail normally. I think that even 5 degrees better windward
performance would help a lot.
-Jay
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 8:17 PM, txsailor37 <txsailor37@...> wrote:
> I am going to direct you to a couple of articles I wrote for
> Duckworksmagazine. These go into a lot of detail about the building
> and learning to sail of my Bobcat. Ther are also some pictures that
> you can see the tiller.
>
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/bobcat/index.htm
>
> and
>
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/bobcat2/index.htm
>
> As for as to where I sit....it varies in light winds I sit on teh
> floor, crossways and in heavy air I sit on the deck with the cockpit
> coamings digging into my thighs, but by sitting on a throwable
> floatation device (cushion) I find it fairly comfortable.
>
> Bobby Chilek
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jay Bazuzi"
> <jay@...> wrote:
> >
> > It's good to find someone with a Bobcat to talk to.
> >
> > Would you send me a picture of your modified tiller? In fact, any
> detailed
> > pics you have of your boat would be helpful in thinking about my
> boat.
> >
> > I don't want to give up entirely on the boat in the current
> configuration.
> > I would like to think that with some practice I could resolve the
> problem
> > without changing the boat.
> >
> > When you talk about steering through the tack with the sails, what
> do you
> > do, exactly? I've seen that when heading up, sheeted in for a
> close reach,
> > the sail wants to turn the boat higher, and that I'm holding the
> tiller to
> > weather to keep going straight. So, if I ease pressure on the
> tiller, I
> > will turn and tack. Once I'm through the eye of the wind (and going
> > slowly), if I stay sheeted in, the wind will try to turn me back in
> to the
> > wind... so I should sheet out until I finish turning, then sheet in
> to get
> > some drive? Hmm, I think I need to practice some more.
> >
> > By the way, I keep my centerboard down pretty much all the time.
> Partly
> > because I've never incorporated changing the centerboard in to my
> sailing
> > technique. Partly because mine is stiff (very stiff when it swells
> in the
> > water), so moving it is a pain. Fixing that is a project for this
> winter.
> >
> > When you're heading upwind, where do you usually sit in the boat?
> >
> > -Jay
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 3:48 PM, txsailor37 <txsailor37@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I have a Bobcat, I have experienced some of the problems you
> have
> > > mentioned. When sailing if you to turn a certain direction you
> will
> > > need to let the sail out if you are turning toward a run. The sail
> > > develops a lot more power than the rudder. After spending some
> time
> > > getting to know the boat I only really have problems while
> running in
> > > a stiff breeze and the boat is wanting to turn up. I can though,
> > > usually keep it going where I want it to. As far as tacking goes,
> > > you need to be sure that you have the centerboard down. If it is
> > > down I never have any problems tacking, she will always tack like
> a
> > > dream, but not at all if the board is up. I at one time thought
> that
> > > the boat needed a larger rudder as well. I have since concluded
> that
> > > the one as designed is sufficient. I now think of doing the
> steering
> > > with the sail and use the rudder for fine adjustment. If you come
> to
> > > thik that way you will tend to get better boat speeds anyway,
> because
> > > the sail is trimmed more appropriately. As far as the tiller
> coming
> > > through the transom, I have NEVER had any water copme in through
> that
> > > hole. I do have a modified tiller handle that curves sharply
> upward
> > > and is thus more out of the way and comfortable. I would recommend
> > > making that modification. I installed a motor mount on the back of
> > > my boat after much reinforcement and hung a 2.5 hp motor back
> there.
> > > The motor mounted that way has never touched the rudder. I would
> > > think that for just hanging a trolling motor, that minimum
> > > reinforement would be required.
> > >
> > > The Bobcat is a great boat as designed, and I absolutely love
> her. I
> > > just got through completing the Texas200 in the boat, we had some
> > > major wind and waves and she did fine. Oh... I would STRONGLY
> > > recommend installing a boom vang. This makes the boat much more
> > > controllable when running downwind in a strong breeze.
> > >
> > > If you have any more questions I would be happy to answer them
> here
> > > or by Email.
> > >
> > > Bobby Chilek
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com> <bolger%
> 40yahoogroups.com>, "Jay
> Bazuzi"
> > > <jay@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey folks,
> > > >
> > > > I recently bought a 20-year-old Bobcat, and have been out on the
> > > water with
> > > > it a few times. I have experience sailing other people's boats,
> > > but I've
> > > > never sailed a catboat before, and never owned my own boat
> before.
> > > >
> > > > I was having a lot of trouble tacking at low speed. I took an
> > > experienced
> > > > sailor friend out, and he had trouble, too. When I go to tack,
> if
> > > I don't
> > > > turn far enough (because I'm not paying attention, or the boat
> > > stops before
> > > > I finish turning), I get stuck in irons. The sail fills, but
> > > before the
> > > > boat accellerates, it swings back to windward (due to wind
> pressure
> > > on the
> > > > sail), and tacks again, but again doesn't get enough way on to
> > > steer before
> > > > it tacks again. It can be very difficult to get out. It's pretty
> > > much
> > > > impossible to tack up a narrow channel, because after one tack,
> I
> > > can't get
> > > > enough speed to tack again without getting stuck. Obviously,
> > > getting stuck
> > > > in a narrow channel sucks.
> > > >
> > > > A related issue I've seen is that when going very slowly,
> turning
> > > down to a
> > > > run, the boat doesn't want to turn at first, even with the
> rudder
> > > hard over.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > My conclusion is that the rudder, which is quite small, isn't
> very
> > > effective
> > > > at low speeds. The horizontal fins seem to help a lot when the
> > > boat is
> > > > moving well, but at low speeds it isn't enough.
> > > >
> > > > My friend also thought the boat would be much more comfortable &
> > > safer, if
> > > > the tiller came over the transom, instead of through a hole in
> it.
> > > The hole
> > > > could be plugged to keep out the water, and the tiller could be
> > > hinged so I
> > > > could lift it up out of the way.
> > > >
> > > > He has suggested I build a new, deeper rudder, using the same
> > > hardware as
> > > > the old rudder, and with a higher swing-up tiller.
> > > >
> > > > I also have a small trolling motor, but the prop tends to hit
> the
> > > wide
> > > > rudder fins. We're thinking that a conventional rudder without
> the
> > > fins
> > > > wouldn't have that trouble, and that I could mount the motor
> > > directly to the
> > > > rudder, giving me just one tiller to mess with.
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to hear your thoughts: do I just need to learn to sail
> > > this boat
> > > > better? Should I build the new rudder as my friend suggests?
> > > >
> > > > -Jay
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am going to direct you to a couple of articles I wrote for
Duckworksmagazine. These go into a lot of detail about the building
and learning to sail of my Bobcat. Ther are also some pictures that
you can see the tiller.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/bobcat/index.htm
and
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/bobcat2/index.htm
As for as to where I sit....it varies in light winds I sit on teh
floor, crossways and in heavy air I sit on the deck with the cockpit
coamings digging into my thighs, but by sitting on a throwable
floatation device (cushion) I find it fairly comfortable.
Bobby Chilek
Duckworksmagazine. These go into a lot of detail about the building
and learning to sail of my Bobcat. Ther are also some pictures that
you can see the tiller.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/bobcat/index.htm
and
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/bobcat2/index.htm
As for as to where I sit....it varies in light winds I sit on teh
floor, crossways and in heavy air I sit on the deck with the cockpit
coamings digging into my thighs, but by sitting on a throwable
floatation device (cushion) I find it fairly comfortable.
Bobby Chilek
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Bazuzi" <jay@...> wrote:
>
> It's good to find someone with a Bobcat to talk to.
>
> Would you send me a picture of your modified tiller? In fact, any
detailed
> pics you have of your boat would be helpful in thinking about my
boat.
>
> I don't want to give up entirely on the boat in the current
configuration.
> I would like to think that with some practice I could resolve the
problem
> without changing the boat.
>
> When you talk about steering through the tack with the sails, what
do you
> do, exactly? I've seen that when heading up, sheeted in for a
close reach,
> the sail wants to turn the boat higher, and that I'm holding the
tiller to
> weather to keep going straight. So, if I ease pressure on the
tiller, I
> will turn and tack. Once I'm through the eye of the wind (and going
> slowly), if I stay sheeted in, the wind will try to turn me back in
to the
> wind... so I should sheet out until I finish turning, then sheet in
to get
> some drive? Hmm, I think I need to practice some more.
>
> By the way, I keep my centerboard down pretty much all the time.
Partly
> because I've never incorporated changing the centerboard in to my
sailing
> technique. Partly because mine is stiff (very stiff when it swells
in the
> water), so moving it is a pain. Fixing that is a project for this
winter.
>
> When you're heading upwind, where do you usually sit in the boat?
>
> -Jay
>
> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 3:48 PM, txsailor37 <txsailor37@...> wrote:
>
> > I have a Bobcat, I have experienced some of the problems you
have
> > mentioned. When sailing if you to turn a certain direction you
will
> > need to let the sail out if you are turning toward a run. The sail
> > develops a lot more power than the rudder. After spending some
time
> > getting to know the boat I only really have problems while
running in
> > a stiff breeze and the boat is wanting to turn up. I can though,
> > usually keep it going where I want it to. As far as tacking goes,
> > you need to be sure that you have the centerboard down. If it is
> > down I never have any problems tacking, she will always tack like
a
> > dream, but not at all if the board is up. I at one time thought
that
> > the boat needed a larger rudder as well. I have since concluded
that
> > the one as designed is sufficient. I now think of doing the
steering
> > with the sail and use the rudder for fine adjustment. If you come
to
> > thik that way you will tend to get better boat speeds anyway,
because
> > the sail is trimmed more appropriately. As far as the tiller
coming
> > through the transom, I have NEVER had any water copme in through
that
> > hole. I do have a modified tiller handle that curves sharply
upward
> > and is thus more out of the way and comfortable. I would recommend
> > making that modification. I installed a motor mount on the back of
> > my boat after much reinforcement and hung a 2.5 hp motor back
there.
> > The motor mounted that way has never touched the rudder. I would
> > think that for just hanging a trolling motor, that minimum
> > reinforement would be required.
> >
> > The Bobcat is a great boat as designed, and I absolutely love
her. I
> > just got through completing the Texas200 in the boat, we had some
> > major wind and waves and she did fine. Oh... I would STRONGLY
> > recommend installing a boom vang. This makes the boat much more
> > controllable when running downwind in a strong breeze.
> >
> > If you have any more questions I would be happy to answer them
here
> > or by Email.
> >
> > Bobby Chilek
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jay
Bazuzi"
> > <jay@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey folks,
> > >
> > > I recently bought a 20-year-old Bobcat, and have been out on the
> > water with
> > > it a few times. I have experience sailing other people's boats,
> > but I've
> > > never sailed a catboat before, and never owned my own boat
before.
> > >
> > > I was having a lot of trouble tacking at low speed. I took an
> > experienced
> > > sailor friend out, and he had trouble, too. When I go to tack,
if
> > I don't
> > > turn far enough (because I'm not paying attention, or the boat
> > stops before
> > > I finish turning), I get stuck in irons. The sail fills, but
> > before the
> > > boat accellerates, it swings back to windward (due to wind
pressure
> > on the
> > > sail), and tacks again, but again doesn't get enough way on to
> > steer before
> > > it tacks again. It can be very difficult to get out. It's pretty
> > much
> > > impossible to tack up a narrow channel, because after one tack,
I
> > can't get
> > > enough speed to tack again without getting stuck. Obviously,
> > getting stuck
> > > in a narrow channel sucks.
> > >
> > > A related issue I've seen is that when going very slowly,
turning
> > down to a
> > > run, the boat doesn't want to turn at first, even with the
rudder
> > hard over.
> > >
> > >
> > > My conclusion is that the rudder, which is quite small, isn't
very
> > effective
> > > at low speeds. The horizontal fins seem to help a lot when the
> > boat is
> > > moving well, but at low speeds it isn't enough.
> > >
> > > My friend also thought the boat would be much more comfortable &
> > safer, if
> > > the tiller came over the transom, instead of through a hole in
it.
> > The hole
> > > could be plugged to keep out the water, and the tiller could be
> > hinged so I
> > > could lift it up out of the way.
> > >
> > > He has suggested I build a new, deeper rudder, using the same
> > hardware as
> > > the old rudder, and with a higher swing-up tiller.
> > >
> > > I also have a small trolling motor, but the prop tends to hit
the
> > wide
> > > rudder fins. We're thinking that a conventional rudder without
the
> > fins
> > > wouldn't have that trouble, and that I could mount the motor
> > directly to the
> > > rudder, giving me just one tiller to mess with.
> > >
> > > I'd like to hear your thoughts: do I just need to learn to sail
> > this boat
> > > better? Should I build the new rudder as my friend suggests?
> > >
> > > -Jay
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
It's good to find someone with a Bobcat to talk to.
Would you send me a picture of your modified tiller? In fact, any detailed
pics you have of your boat would be helpful in thinking about my boat.
I don't want to give up entirely on the boat in the current configuration.
I would like to think that with some practice I could resolve the problem
without changing the boat.
When you talk about steering through the tack with the sails, what do you
do, exactly? I've seen that when heading up, sheeted in for a close reach,
the sail wants to turn the boat higher, and that I'm holding the tiller to
weather to keep going straight. So, if I ease pressure on the tiller, I
will turn and tack. Once I'm through the eye of the wind (and going
slowly), if I stay sheeted in, the wind will try to turn me back in to the
wind... so I should sheet out until I finish turning, then sheet in to get
some drive? Hmm, I think I need to practice some more.
By the way, I keep my centerboard down pretty much all the time. Partly
because I've never incorporated changing the centerboard in to my sailing
technique. Partly because mine is stiff (very stiff when it swells in the
water), so moving it is a pain. Fixing that is a project for this winter.
When you're heading upwind, where do you usually sit in the boat?
-Jay
Would you send me a picture of your modified tiller? In fact, any detailed
pics you have of your boat would be helpful in thinking about my boat.
I don't want to give up entirely on the boat in the current configuration.
I would like to think that with some practice I could resolve the problem
without changing the boat.
When you talk about steering through the tack with the sails, what do you
do, exactly? I've seen that when heading up, sheeted in for a close reach,
the sail wants to turn the boat higher, and that I'm holding the tiller to
weather to keep going straight. So, if I ease pressure on the tiller, I
will turn and tack. Once I'm through the eye of the wind (and going
slowly), if I stay sheeted in, the wind will try to turn me back in to the
wind... so I should sheet out until I finish turning, then sheet in to get
some drive? Hmm, I think I need to practice some more.
By the way, I keep my centerboard down pretty much all the time. Partly
because I've never incorporated changing the centerboard in to my sailing
technique. Partly because mine is stiff (very stiff when it swells in the
water), so moving it is a pain. Fixing that is a project for this winter.
When you're heading upwind, where do you usually sit in the boat?
-Jay
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 3:48 PM, txsailor37 <txsailor37@...> wrote:
> I have a Bobcat, I have experienced some of the problems you have
> mentioned. When sailing if you to turn a certain direction you will
> need to let the sail out if you are turning toward a run. The sail
> develops a lot more power than the rudder. After spending some time
> getting to know the boat I only really have problems while running in
> a stiff breeze and the boat is wanting to turn up. I can though,
> usually keep it going where I want it to. As far as tacking goes,
> you need to be sure that you have the centerboard down. If it is
> down I never have any problems tacking, she will always tack like a
> dream, but not at all if the board is up. I at one time thought that
> the boat needed a larger rudder as well. I have since concluded that
> the one as designed is sufficient. I now think of doing the steering
> with the sail and use the rudder for fine adjustment. If you come to
> thik that way you will tend to get better boat speeds anyway, because
> the sail is trimmed more appropriately. As far as the tiller coming
> through the transom, I have NEVER had any water copme in through that
> hole. I do have a modified tiller handle that curves sharply upward
> and is thus more out of the way and comfortable. I would recommend
> making that modification. I installed a motor mount on the back of
> my boat after much reinforcement and hung a 2.5 hp motor back there.
> The motor mounted that way has never touched the rudder. I would
> think that for just hanging a trolling motor, that minimum
> reinforement would be required.
>
> The Bobcat is a great boat as designed, and I absolutely love her. I
> just got through completing the Texas200 in the boat, we had some
> major wind and waves and she did fine. Oh... I would STRONGLY
> recommend installing a boom vang. This makes the boat much more
> controllable when running downwind in a strong breeze.
>
> If you have any more questions I would be happy to answer them here
> or by Email.
>
> Bobby Chilek
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jay Bazuzi"
> <jay@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hey folks,
> >
> > I recently bought a 20-year-old Bobcat, and have been out on the
> water with
> > it a few times. I have experience sailing other people's boats,
> but I've
> > never sailed a catboat before, and never owned my own boat before.
> >
> > I was having a lot of trouble tacking at low speed. I took an
> experienced
> > sailor friend out, and he had trouble, too. When I go to tack, if
> I don't
> > turn far enough (because I'm not paying attention, or the boat
> stops before
> > I finish turning), I get stuck in irons. The sail fills, but
> before the
> > boat accellerates, it swings back to windward (due to wind pressure
> on the
> > sail), and tacks again, but again doesn't get enough way on to
> steer before
> > it tacks again. It can be very difficult to get out. It's pretty
> much
> > impossible to tack up a narrow channel, because after one tack, I
> can't get
> > enough speed to tack again without getting stuck. Obviously,
> getting stuck
> > in a narrow channel sucks.
> >
> > A related issue I've seen is that when going very slowly, turning
> down to a
> > run, the boat doesn't want to turn at first, even with the rudder
> hard over.
> >
> >
> > My conclusion is that the rudder, which is quite small, isn't very
> effective
> > at low speeds. The horizontal fins seem to help a lot when the
> boat is
> > moving well, but at low speeds it isn't enough.
> >
> > My friend also thought the boat would be much more comfortable &
> safer, if
> > the tiller came over the transom, instead of through a hole in it.
> The hole
> > could be plugged to keep out the water, and the tiller could be
> hinged so I
> > could lift it up out of the way.
> >
> > He has suggested I build a new, deeper rudder, using the same
> hardware as
> > the old rudder, and with a higher swing-up tiller.
> >
> > I also have a small trolling motor, but the prop tends to hit the
> wide
> > rudder fins. We're thinking that a conventional rudder without the
> fins
> > wouldn't have that trouble, and that I could mount the motor
> directly to the
> > rudder, giving me just one tiller to mess with.
> >
> > I'd like to hear your thoughts: do I just need to learn to sail
> this boat
> > better? Should I build the new rudder as my friend suggests?
> >
> > -Jay
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi,
I sail a Chebacco, with the same rudder. I don't have a problem with
it and haven't heard of anyone else having one either. It might be
the catboat configuration that is bothering you -- when tacking, the
Chebacco doesn't snap round like a dinghy with a sloop rig, it likes
to be sailed around and if, as you noticed, you stop turning too soon
you'll be in irons. Once in irons, you can get out by reversing the
rudder and steering the stern. Remember that going backwards
directons are also backwards. Holding the sail out should also work,
it'll probably push the stern around as long as sail and rudder are
working together and not cancelling each other out. Try one at a
time to get the hang of it.
Turning away from the wind onto a run, let the sheet run out as you
turn, otherwise that big main is working against the rudder. The
rudder isn't too small, the sail is just bigger.
My only experience with a Bobcat (I liked it) was in light winds, and
I found it behaved very like the Chebacco so I think if you persevere
and get used to the catboat rig you'll find the rudder is fine. Of
course, if you have the urge to experiment, go for it.
Good luck,
Jamie Orr,
Chebacco Wayward Lass
I sail a Chebacco, with the same rudder. I don't have a problem with
it and haven't heard of anyone else having one either. It might be
the catboat configuration that is bothering you -- when tacking, the
Chebacco doesn't snap round like a dinghy with a sloop rig, it likes
to be sailed around and if, as you noticed, you stop turning too soon
you'll be in irons. Once in irons, you can get out by reversing the
rudder and steering the stern. Remember that going backwards
directons are also backwards. Holding the sail out should also work,
it'll probably push the stern around as long as sail and rudder are
working together and not cancelling each other out. Try one at a
time to get the hang of it.
Turning away from the wind onto a run, let the sheet run out as you
turn, otherwise that big main is working against the rudder. The
rudder isn't too small, the sail is just bigger.
My only experience with a Bobcat (I liked it) was in light winds, and
I found it behaved very like the Chebacco so I think if you persevere
and get used to the catboat rig you'll find the rudder is fine. Of
course, if you have the urge to experiment, go for it.
Good luck,
Jamie Orr,
Chebacco Wayward Lass
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Bazuzi" <jay@...> wrote:
>
> Hey folks,
>
> I recently bought a 20-year-old Bobcat, and have been out on the
water with
> it a few times. I have experience sailing other people's boats,
but I've
> never sailed a catboat before, and never owned my own boat before.
>
> I was having a lot of trouble tacking at low speed. I took an
experienced
> sailor friend out, and he had trouble, too. When I go to tack, if
I don't
> turn far enough (because I'm not paying attention, or the boat
stops before
> I finish turning), I get stuck in irons. The sail fills, but
before the
> boat accellerates, it swings back to windward (due to wind pressure
on the
> sail), and tacks again, but again doesn't get enough way on to
steer before
> it tacks again. It can be very difficult to get out. It's pretty
much
> impossible to tack up a narrow channel, because after one tack, I
can't get
> enough speed to tack again without getting stuck. Obviously,
getting stuck
> in a narrow channel sucks.
>
> A related issue I've seen is that when going very slowly, turning
down to a
> run, the boat doesn't want to turn at first, even with the rudder
hard over.
>
>
> My conclusion is that the rudder, which is quite small, isn't very
effective
> at low speeds. The horizontal fins seem to help a lot when the
boat is
> moving well, but at low speeds it isn't enough.
>
> My friend also thought the boat would be much more comfortable &
safer, if
> the tiller came over the transom, instead of through a hole in it.
The hole
> could be plugged to keep out the water, and the tiller could be
hinged so I
> could lift it up out of the way.
>
> He has suggested I build a new, deeper rudder, using the same
hardware as
> the old rudder, and with a higher swing-up tiller.
>
> I also have a small trolling motor, but the prop tends to hit the
wide
> rudder fins. We're thinking that a conventional rudder without the
fins
> wouldn't have that trouble, and that I could mount the motor
directly to the
> rudder, giving me just one tiller to mess with.
>
> I'd like to hear your thoughts: do I just need to learn to sail
this boat
> better? Should I build the new rudder as my friend suggests?
>
> -Jay
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I have a Bobcat, I have experienced some of the problems you have
mentioned. When sailing if you to turn a certain direction you will
need to let the sail out if you are turning toward a run. The sail
develops a lot more power than the rudder. After spending some time
getting to know the boat I only really have problems while running in
a stiff breeze and the boat is wanting to turn up. I can though,
usually keep it going where I want it to. As far as tacking goes,
you need to be sure that you have the centerboard down. If it is
down I never have any problems tacking, she will always tack like a
dream, but not at all if the board is up. I at one time thought that
the boat needed a larger rudder as well. I have since concluded that
the one as designed is sufficient. I now think of doing the steering
with the sail and use the rudder for fine adjustment. If you come to
thik that way you will tend to get better boat speeds anyway, because
the sail is trimmed more appropriately. As far as the tiller coming
through the transom, I have NEVER had any water copme in through that
hole. I do have a modified tiller handle that curves sharply upward
and is thus more out of the way and comfortable. I would recommend
making that modification. I installed a motor mount on the back of
my boat after much reinforcement and hung a 2.5 hp motor back there.
The motor mounted that way has never touched the rudder. I would
think that for just hanging a trolling motor, that minimum
reinforement would be required.
The Bobcat is a great boat as designed, and I absolutely love her. I
just got through completing the Texas200 in the boat, we had some
major wind and waves and she did fine. Oh... I would STRONGLY
recommend installing a boom vang. This makes the boat much more
controllable when running downwind in a strong breeze.
If you have any more questions I would be happy to answer them here
or by Email.
Bobby Chilek
mentioned. When sailing if you to turn a certain direction you will
need to let the sail out if you are turning toward a run. The sail
develops a lot more power than the rudder. After spending some time
getting to know the boat I only really have problems while running in
a stiff breeze and the boat is wanting to turn up. I can though,
usually keep it going where I want it to. As far as tacking goes,
you need to be sure that you have the centerboard down. If it is
down I never have any problems tacking, she will always tack like a
dream, but not at all if the board is up. I at one time thought that
the boat needed a larger rudder as well. I have since concluded that
the one as designed is sufficient. I now think of doing the steering
with the sail and use the rudder for fine adjustment. If you come to
thik that way you will tend to get better boat speeds anyway, because
the sail is trimmed more appropriately. As far as the tiller coming
through the transom, I have NEVER had any water copme in through that
hole. I do have a modified tiller handle that curves sharply upward
and is thus more out of the way and comfortable. I would recommend
making that modification. I installed a motor mount on the back of
my boat after much reinforcement and hung a 2.5 hp motor back there.
The motor mounted that way has never touched the rudder. I would
think that for just hanging a trolling motor, that minimum
reinforement would be required.
The Bobcat is a great boat as designed, and I absolutely love her. I
just got through completing the Texas200 in the boat, we had some
major wind and waves and she did fine. Oh... I would STRONGLY
recommend installing a boom vang. This makes the boat much more
controllable when running downwind in a strong breeze.
If you have any more questions I would be happy to answer them here
or by Email.
Bobby Chilek
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Bazuzi" <jay@...> wrote:
>
> Hey folks,
>
> I recently bought a 20-year-old Bobcat, and have been out on the
water with
> it a few times. I have experience sailing other people's boats,
but I've
> never sailed a catboat before, and never owned my own boat before.
>
> I was having a lot of trouble tacking at low speed. I took an
experienced
> sailor friend out, and he had trouble, too. When I go to tack, if
I don't
> turn far enough (because I'm not paying attention, or the boat
stops before
> I finish turning), I get stuck in irons. The sail fills, but
before the
> boat accellerates, it swings back to windward (due to wind pressure
on the
> sail), and tacks again, but again doesn't get enough way on to
steer before
> it tacks again. It can be very difficult to get out. It's pretty
much
> impossible to tack up a narrow channel, because after one tack, I
can't get
> enough speed to tack again without getting stuck. Obviously,
getting stuck
> in a narrow channel sucks.
>
> A related issue I've seen is that when going very slowly, turning
down to a
> run, the boat doesn't want to turn at first, even with the rudder
hard over.
>
>
> My conclusion is that the rudder, which is quite small, isn't very
effective
> at low speeds. The horizontal fins seem to help a lot when the
boat is
> moving well, but at low speeds it isn't enough.
>
> My friend also thought the boat would be much more comfortable &
safer, if
> the tiller came over the transom, instead of through a hole in it.
The hole
> could be plugged to keep out the water, and the tiller could be
hinged so I
> could lift it up out of the way.
>
> He has suggested I build a new, deeper rudder, using the same
hardware as
> the old rudder, and with a higher swing-up tiller.
>
> I also have a small trolling motor, but the prop tends to hit the
wide
> rudder fins. We're thinking that a conventional rudder without the
fins
> wouldn't have that trouble, and that I could mount the motor
directly to the
> rudder, giving me just one tiller to mess with.
>
> I'd like to hear your thoughts: do I just need to learn to sail
this boat
> better? Should I build the new rudder as my friend suggests?
>
> -Jay
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Bazuzi" <jay@...> wrote:
up, and grabbing the boom (or holding the sheet near the boom) to
hold the sail aback while reversing the rudder (tiller put over to
lee). The boat should go into reverse and follow the rudder. Wait
until the the wind has come well around to the beam, then let the
sail go while centering the helm, or putting it a bit to weather if
required, and sail away. Use as little rudder as you can.
boat - it stalls. Hard over the rudder is a brake only.
TFJ is all good.
Graeme
> I get stuck in irons. The sail fills, but before the boatWhen stuck in irons, have you tried the dinghy technique of reaching
> accellerates, it swings back to windward (due to wind pressure on
> the sail), and tacks again, but again doesn't get enough way on to
> steer before it tacks again. It can be very difficult to get out.
> It's pretty much impossible to tack up a narrow channel, because
> after one tack, I can't get enough speed to tack again without
> getting stuck. Obviously, getting stuck in a narrow channel sucks.
up, and grabbing the boom (or holding the sheet near the boom) to
hold the sail aback while reversing the rudder (tiller put over to
lee). The boat should go into reverse and follow the rudder. Wait
until the the wind has come well around to the beam, then let the
sail go while centering the helm, or putting it a bit to weather if
required, and sail away. Use as little rudder as you can.
> A related issue I've seen is that when going very slowly, turningThe rudder hard over, especially at low speed, will not steer the
> down to a run, the boat doesn't want to turn at first, even with
> the rudder hard over.
boat - it stalls. Hard over the rudder is a brake only.
TFJ is all good.
Graeme
Periodically, a chat group will get going on the merits of small, foil shaped boards versus big flat boards. PCB has designed a rudder which uses winglets to minimize turbulence over the end of the blade and improve the flow over the blade. The problem with small, aerodynamic rudders/centerboards is that they need to be moving through the water to be effective. In very light air, they don't move fast enough to be effective. Size matters and bigger is better.
If you sail in light air (and most lake sailors do much of the time) I would build a new, bigger, deeper rudder and accept any degradation in moderate/heavy air performance. Unless you go toe to toe with another Bobcat, you will never notice any difference!
JohnT
If you sail in light air (and most lake sailors do much of the time) I would build a new, bigger, deeper rudder and accept any degradation in moderate/heavy air performance. Unless you go toe to toe with another Bobcat, you will never notice any difference!
JohnT
----- Original Message -----
From: thedumbox2
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 5:49 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Rudder issues with Bobcat/TinyCat
Hi, Jay, T.F. Jones in "New Plywood Boats and Some Others" thought the Bobcat would be
improved by a higher aspect ratio rudder that would kick up in the shallows. I'd say give it a
shot.
Dennis
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi, Jay, T.F. Jones in "New Plywood Boats and Some Others" thought the Bobcat would be
improved by a higher aspect ratio rudder that would kick up in the shallows. I'd say give it a
shot.
Dennis
improved by a higher aspect ratio rudder that would kick up in the shallows. I'd say give it a
shot.
Dennis
> I was having a lot of trouble tacking at low speed.Bobcat is a small boat with not much inertia. Much different than
when sailing a ballasted sloop.
I suspect you tried the tactic where you ease up on the sheet to head
off the wind a bit to gain speed before trying to head up and use the
speed and momentum to come about. In low winds sometimes it is easier
to come about by doing a gybe instead of tack. Or, whip out the
paddle and use some brute force to get the bow around.
Hey folks,
I recently bought a 20-year-old Bobcat, and have been out on the water with
it a few times. I have experience sailing other people's boats, but I've
never sailed a catboat before, and never owned my own boat before.
I was having a lot of trouble tacking at low speed. I took an experienced
sailor friend out, and he had trouble, too. When I go to tack, if I don't
turn far enough (because I'm not paying attention, or the boat stops before
I finish turning), I get stuck in irons. The sail fills, but before the
boat accellerates, it swings back to windward (due to wind pressure on the
sail), and tacks again, but again doesn't get enough way on to steer before
it tacks again. It can be very difficult to get out. It's pretty much
impossible to tack up a narrow channel, because after one tack, I can't get
enough speed to tack again without getting stuck. Obviously, getting stuck
in a narrow channel sucks.
A related issue I've seen is that when going very slowly, turning down to a
run, the boat doesn't want to turn at first, even with the rudder hard over.
My conclusion is that the rudder, which is quite small, isn't very effective
at low speeds. The horizontal fins seem to help a lot when the boat is
moving well, but at low speeds it isn't enough.
My friend also thought the boat would be much more comfortable & safer, if
the tiller came over the transom, instead of through a hole in it. The hole
could be plugged to keep out the water, and the tiller could be hinged so I
could lift it up out of the way.
He has suggested I build a new, deeper rudder, using the same hardware as
the old rudder, and with a higher swing-up tiller.
I also have a small trolling motor, but the prop tends to hit the wide
rudder fins. We're thinking that a conventional rudder without the fins
wouldn't have that trouble, and that I could mount the motor directly to the
rudder, giving me just one tiller to mess with.
I'd like to hear your thoughts: do I just need to learn to sail this boat
better? Should I build the new rudder as my friend suggests?
-Jay
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I recently bought a 20-year-old Bobcat, and have been out on the water with
it a few times. I have experience sailing other people's boats, but I've
never sailed a catboat before, and never owned my own boat before.
I was having a lot of trouble tacking at low speed. I took an experienced
sailor friend out, and he had trouble, too. When I go to tack, if I don't
turn far enough (because I'm not paying attention, or the boat stops before
I finish turning), I get stuck in irons. The sail fills, but before the
boat accellerates, it swings back to windward (due to wind pressure on the
sail), and tacks again, but again doesn't get enough way on to steer before
it tacks again. It can be very difficult to get out. It's pretty much
impossible to tack up a narrow channel, because after one tack, I can't get
enough speed to tack again without getting stuck. Obviously, getting stuck
in a narrow channel sucks.
A related issue I've seen is that when going very slowly, turning down to a
run, the boat doesn't want to turn at first, even with the rudder hard over.
My conclusion is that the rudder, which is quite small, isn't very effective
at low speeds. The horizontal fins seem to help a lot when the boat is
moving well, but at low speeds it isn't enough.
My friend also thought the boat would be much more comfortable & safer, if
the tiller came over the transom, instead of through a hole in it. The hole
could be plugged to keep out the water, and the tiller could be hinged so I
could lift it up out of the way.
He has suggested I build a new, deeper rudder, using the same hardware as
the old rudder, and with a higher swing-up tiller.
I also have a small trolling motor, but the prop tends to hit the wide
rudder fins. We're thinking that a conventional rudder without the fins
wouldn't have that trouble, and that I could mount the motor directly to the
rudder, giving me just one tiller to mess with.
I'd like to hear your thoughts: do I just need to learn to sail this boat
better? Should I build the new rudder as my friend suggests?
-Jay
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]