Re: redo of tunnel stern?
I respect a man that askes for a hand up more then a hand out. The
person with a hand up can give a hand up to others making the world a
better place. A person that just wants a hand out cares little about
others. Homeless for many is a choice I have knowen more then a few.
Jon
person with a hand up can give a hand up to others making the world a
better place. A person that just wants a hand out cares little about
others. Homeless for many is a choice I have knowen more then a few.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, dave seeton <daveseeton@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Doug
> Your concerns sound sincere & valid.
> Yet I live in a town in rural America where we just dedicated a new
Animal shelter but we don't have a shelter for the homeless & the
temp is going down to 19 tonite. And there are literally 100's of
cities like this across the country. I am always amazed that
Americans will jump & run to help people around the world but ignore
the homeless, the hungry, the battered, the abused, and the mentally
handicapped in our own back yards.
> Just my opinion.
>
>
> Speaking of fishing boats. I talked to a fellow that has come from
>
> Haiti and is now back there. They have no timber left there.
>
> Hurricanes, internal strife and a host of other things have ruined
the
>
> timber and boat building industry. Most of the trees were cooked
into
>
> charcoal and used for fuel. Many fishermen no longer have boats.
These
>
> are guys that can help feed the country. Seems like boatnicks
like
>
> some of us here could push some help down there way somehow.. Maybe
even
>
> build one to ship down there. Not a bad thought you know.
>
> My Haitian friend carried some Locust seeds down there to
plant.
>
> They may well grow so fast they will run everyone into the sea and
I
>
> will windup the most hated man on earth.
>
> If they grow there they could supply lumber for boats or any other
>
> need. They can be harvested in less than ten years. As firewood
it is
>
> exceptional and when young it provides fodder for cattle and
goats.
>
> The seeds can be eaten if it's honey locust and maybe not the best
thing
>
> but beer can be made from the paste inside the pods.
>
> Just one Bolger fishing boat or light sharpie with a sail may
well
>
> feed a half dozen families or more. An organized effort might be a
>
> great thing for such people. The professional builders in these
boat
>
> groups with their know how may likely be able to supply ideas on
how to
>
> build work boats efficiently. There are organizations that ship
>
> medical supplies and other needed equipment all over the world and
I am
>
> sure they could figure out how to ship boats as well.
>
> Just thought I'd throw in this maybe worthwhile thought.
>
>
>
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Hi Doug
Your concerns sound sincere & valid.
Yet I live in a town in rural America where we just dedicated a new Animal shelter but we don't have a shelter for the homeless & the temp is going down to 19 tonite. And there are literally 100's of cities like this across the country. I am always amazed that Americans will jump & run to help people around the world but ignore the homeless, the hungry, the battered, the abused, and the mentally handicapped in our own back yards.
Just my opinion.
Your concerns sound sincere & valid.
Yet I live in a town in rural America where we just dedicated a new Animal shelter but we don't have a shelter for the homeless & the temp is going down to 19 tonite. And there are literally 100's of cities like this across the country. I am always amazed that Americans will jump & run to help people around the world but ignore the homeless, the hungry, the battered, the abused, and the mentally handicapped in our own back yards.
Just my opinion.
--- On Mon, 1/12/09, Doug Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
From: Doug Pollard <dougpol1@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] redo of tunnel stern?
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 2:26 PM
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@gmail. com
> <mailto:fredschum% 40gmail.com> > wrote:
>
> > However, it's now clear, based on the postings over the last few
> weeks, that
> > Phil will not be taking on new projects, and Susan has shown herself
> not to
> > be the master of simplicity in design ...
>
> I disagree. The series of "Advanced Fisherman" designs has been the
> hallmark of the PB&F design out put for the last decade. Fair to
> guess that these are primarily SA sponsored designs too. And these
> boats are marked by a central theme which is: lighter, smaller,
> simpler, cheaper fishing boats can save the global fisheries industry.
> The central theme: Simplicity.
>
> True, PB&F ultra simple heyday was the 1975-85 were the Instantboats.
> Frankly, there are only so many Teals, Windsprints and Zephyr shapes
> possible before you run out of possibilities. It is understandable
> that they have moved on, that idea was running dry.
>
>
Speaking of fishing boats. I talked to a fellow that has come from
Haiti and is now back there. They have no timber left there.
Hurricanes, internal strife and a host of other things have ruined the
timber and boat building industry. Most of the trees were cooked into
charcoal and used for fuel. Many fishermen no longer have boats. These
are guys that can help feed the country. Seems like boatnicks like
some of us here could push some help down there way somehow.. Maybe even
build one to ship down there. Not a bad thought you know.
My Haitian friend carried some Locust seeds down there to plant.
They may well grow so fast they will run everyone into the sea and I
will windup the most hated man on earth.
If they grow there they could supply lumber for boats or any other
need. They can be harvested in less than ten years. As firewood it is
exceptional and when young it provides fodder for cattle and goats.
The seeds can be eaten if it's honey locust and maybe not the best thing
but beer can be made from the paste inside the pods.
Just one Bolger fishing boat or light sharpie with a sail may well
feed a half dozen families or more. An organized effort might be a
great thing for such people. The professional builders in these boat
groups with their know how may likely be able to supply ideas on how to
build work boats efficiently. There are organizations that ship
medical supplies and other needed equipment all over the world and I am
sure they could figure out how to ship boats as well.
Just thought I'd throw in this maybe worthwhile thought.
Doug
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The July/August 2008 issue of Watercraft magazine has an article on Phil
Bolger and his introduction to the yamato-gata boats of Tokyo Bay. Phil was
stationed there during the post-WW II occupation, and he was so impressed by
the design of the yamato boats with their box cutwater bows that he wrote
his first magazine article, which Watercraft reproduced. The article is
excellent and I would recommend it to anyone on this list. It's interesting
that Phil's clear, concise writing style is present in his earliest work.
There are many designs yet to be drawn of simple boats. The design
possibilities have not been exhausted. Certainly Phil's version of the box
keel cutwater needs more exploring. We're renting our Mankato house out this
year while my wife is on sabbatical, and our renters talked of wanting to
develop a northern Minnesota fishing guide business with two friends, one of
whom is paraplegic. I copied the chapter on Hawkeye for them from Boats with
an Open Mind. They were very excited by its design features which would be
adaptable to wheelchair use. Hawkeye floats a good load on 9 inches draft. A
version with a garvey bow and ramp and tunnel stern would allow such a boat
to beach on shore and allow for wheel chair access away from ramps and
docks. And with the prop safely tucked away, there's less worry about the
numerous rock reefs in the Minnesota/Ontario Border Lakes region. For
example, to get upstream to Lac La Croix, one has to go between
semisubmerged rocks in the Number 56 Rapids on the Little Vermilion River,
always a problem spot when heading back downstream.
Rescue Minor is based on the Sea Bright Skiff planform. Sea Bright Skiffs
have a box keel, and it's this feature which allowed Atkin to place the
motor down low, with a driveshaft with no vertical slope, and a way to
direct water back to the tunnel stern. It's a great design which should be
expanded upon.
Fred Schumacher
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger and his introduction to the yamato-gata boats of Tokyo Bay. Phil was
stationed there during the post-WW II occupation, and he was so impressed by
the design of the yamato boats with their box cutwater bows that he wrote
his first magazine article, which Watercraft reproduced. The article is
excellent and I would recommend it to anyone on this list. It's interesting
that Phil's clear, concise writing style is present in his earliest work.
There are many designs yet to be drawn of simple boats. The design
possibilities have not been exhausted. Certainly Phil's version of the box
keel cutwater needs more exploring. We're renting our Mankato house out this
year while my wife is on sabbatical, and our renters talked of wanting to
develop a northern Minnesota fishing guide business with two friends, one of
whom is paraplegic. I copied the chapter on Hawkeye for them from Boats with
an Open Mind. They were very excited by its design features which would be
adaptable to wheelchair use. Hawkeye floats a good load on 9 inches draft. A
version with a garvey bow and ramp and tunnel stern would allow such a boat
to beach on shore and allow for wheel chair access away from ramps and
docks. And with the prop safely tucked away, there's less worry about the
numerous rock reefs in the Minnesota/Ontario Border Lakes region. For
example, to get upstream to Lac La Croix, one has to go between
semisubmerged rocks in the Number 56 Rapids on the Little Vermilion River,
always a problem spot when heading back downstream.
Rescue Minor is based on the Sea Bright Skiff planform. Sea Bright Skiffs
have a box keel, and it's this feature which allowed Atkin to place the
motor down low, with a driveshaft with no vertical slope, and a way to
direct water back to the tunnel stern. It's a great design which should be
expanded upon.
Fred Schumacher
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We sold a set of Rescue Minor plans to Ren Tolman. It looks pretty much
like he grafted RM's tunnel-stern, V-bottom Seabright skiff tail end onto
an Alaskan Skiff. It didn't look very promising to me...
like he grafted RM's tunnel-stern, V-bottom Seabright skiff tail end onto
an Alaskan Skiff. It didn't look very promising to me...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:12:37 -0800, Bob S wrote:
> I can't recall the exact name, but Tolman(?) of the Tolman Alaskan
> Skiff had that article in MAIBs where he was building a tunnel hull
> version of the Alaskan Skiff. Plywood like the original. I've been
> hoping for a follow up on that but there hasn't been one, so maybe he
> ran into some problems. I think that he, like Robb, was going to use
> a small inboard diesel. Maybe we will see something further about that
> in the future.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
tenant for the mind of an honest man. <Robert G. Ingersoll>
I can't recall the exact name, but Tolman(?) of the Tolman Alaskan
Skiff had that article in MAIBs where he was building a tunnel hull
version of the Alaskan Skiff. Plywood like the original. I've been
hoping for a follow up on that but there hasn't been one, so maybe he
ran into some problems. I think that he, like Robb, was going to use
a small inboard diesel. Maybe we will see something further about that
in the future.
Bob
Skiff had that article in MAIBs where he was building a tunnel hull
version of the Alaskan Skiff. Plywood like the original. I've been
hoping for a follow up on that but there hasn't been one, so maybe he
ran into some problems. I think that he, like Robb, was going to use
a small inboard diesel. Maybe we will see something further about that
in the future.
Bob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Schumacher" <fredschum@...> wrote:
>
> Atkin had it right for his time, materials and technology, which was the
> 1930s and 40s. This doesn't preclude the need for some new designs
today. I
> brought up Bolger in the original posting because he has been a
master of
> the parsimonious solution, coming up with designs that do the most
with the
> least. I think a tunnel stern Fish Hawk would be a good project.
>
> However, it's now clear, based on the postings over the last few
weeks, that
> Phil will not be taking on new projects, and Susan has shown herself
not to
> be the master of simplicity in design and commentary that Phil is. Susan
> likes complexity, which is quite the opposite of Phil. Robb White,
in spite
> of his aw-shucks writing, also loved complexity within simplicity,
because
> of his desire for the lightest possible construction to accomplish a
task.
> His boats are simple, but the construction of them is not, and is
not easily
> adaptable to the abilities of most people.
>
> The original posting was prompted by discussions with my neighbor,
who is an
> avid catfish fisherman. His boat is a large johnboat with a 180 hp.
outboard
> jet drive. It was costing him $2 per mile for fuel this summer. I
gave him
> copies of articles on Robb White's version of Rescue Minor. I think
Robb's
> Rescue Minor is an absolutely fantastic boat, but it would be
difficult for
> most people to replicate it. A simpler solution is called for.
>
> Fred Schumacher
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:02 AM, daschultz2000
> <daschultz8275@...>wrote:
>
> > Hmmm,
> >
> > Atkin apparently had it right, so why redo it?
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
He has another tunnel design in disguise--the Sneakeasy. Fritz Funk has
found that the ducktails act just like a tunnel drive and with the
outboard tilted up he can run with the Jon Boats with jetdrive outboards
when he moved the boat to Wisconsin several years ago.
HJ
daschultz2000 wrote:
found that the ducktails act just like a tunnel drive and with the
outboard tilted up he can run with the Jon Boats with jetdrive outboards
when he moved the boat to Wisconsin several years ago.
HJ
daschultz2000 wrote:
> Hmmm,
>
> Atkin apparently had it right, so why redo it? All the attributes of
> the Atkin design you cite seem true based on video I've seen. Atkin
> did many variations of this interesting design including a hi-speed
> tanker he drew during WWII. He believed the hull shape would work
> over an amazing range of scale.
>
> The one tunnel I've seen from Bolger is in "The Folding Schooner", and
> I think is called plywood utility for amateur builders. A 22' that's
> kinda homely on paper, it has very crude tunnel compared to the
> sophisticated shape of Atkin's tunnel sterns like Rescue Minor. If I
> were to build the Bolger utility, I think I'd build it w/o the tunnel
> and hang a pair of outboards on the back.
>
> Don
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Schumacher" <fredschum@...> wrote:
>
>> It would be good if Phil would design a new parsimonious tunnel-stern
>> sportsfishing boat for 15 hp. max. The pleasure boat industry is really
>> tanking these days. We noticed the decline this summer in northern
>> Minnesota, a place where the simple fish boat with a 3 horse kicker
>>
> used to
>
>> be the rule.....
>>
>> Why tunnel-stern? I was really impressed with Robb White's modified
>>
> Atkin
>
>> Rescue Minor. It'll float on spit and no worries about rocks and logs.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Bruce Hallman wrote:
Haiti and is now back there. They have no timber left there.
Hurricanes, internal strife and a host of other things have ruined the
timber and boat building industry. Most of the trees were cooked into
charcoal and used for fuel. Many fishermen no longer have boats. These
are guys that can help feed the country. Seems like boatnicks like
some of us here could push some help down there way somehow.. Maybe even
build one to ship down there. Not a bad thought you know.
My Haitian friend carried some Locust seeds down there to plant.
They may well grow so fast they will run everyone into the sea and I
will windup the most hated man on earth.
If they grow there they could supply lumber for boats or any other
need. They can be harvested in less than ten years. As firewood it is
exceptional and when young it provides fodder for cattle and goats.
The seeds can be eaten if it's honey locust and maybe not the best thing
but beer can be made from the paste inside the pods.
Just one Bolger fishing boat or light sharpie with a sail may well
feed a half dozen families or more. An organized effort might be a
great thing for such people. The professional builders in these boat
groups with their know how may likely be able to supply ideas on how to
build work boats efficiently. There are organizations that ship
medical supplies and other needed equipment all over the world and I am
sure they could figure out how to ship boats as well.
Just thought I'd throw in this maybe worthwhile thought.
Doug
>Speaking of fishing boats. I talked to a fellow that has come from
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...
> <mailto:fredschum%40gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > However, it's now clear, based on the postings over the last few
> weeks, that
> > Phil will not be taking on new projects, and Susan has shown herself
> not to
> > be the master of simplicity in design ...
>
> I disagree. The series of "Advanced Fisherman" designs has been the
> hallmark of the PB&F design out put for the last decade. Fair to
> guess that these are primarily SA sponsored designs too. And these
> boats are marked by a central theme which is: lighter, smaller,
> simpler, cheaper fishing boats can save the global fisheries industry.
> The central theme: Simplicity.
>
> True, PB&F ultra simple heyday was the 1975-85 were the Instantboats.
> Frankly, there are only so many Teals, Windsprints and Zephyr shapes
> possible before you run out of possibilities. It is understandable
> that they have moved on, that idea was running dry.
>
>
Haiti and is now back there. They have no timber left there.
Hurricanes, internal strife and a host of other things have ruined the
timber and boat building industry. Most of the trees were cooked into
charcoal and used for fuel. Many fishermen no longer have boats. These
are guys that can help feed the country. Seems like boatnicks like
some of us here could push some help down there way somehow.. Maybe even
build one to ship down there. Not a bad thought you know.
My Haitian friend carried some Locust seeds down there to plant.
They may well grow so fast they will run everyone into the sea and I
will windup the most hated man on earth.
If they grow there they could supply lumber for boats or any other
need. They can be harvested in less than ten years. As firewood it is
exceptional and when young it provides fodder for cattle and goats.
The seeds can be eaten if it's honey locust and maybe not the best thing
but beer can be made from the paste inside the pods.
Just one Bolger fishing boat or light sharpie with a sail may well
feed a half dozen families or more. An organized effort might be a
great thing for such people. The professional builders in these boat
groups with their know how may likely be able to supply ideas on how to
build work boats efficiently. There are organizations that ship
medical supplies and other needed equipment all over the world and I am
sure they could figure out how to ship boats as well.
Just thought I'd throw in this maybe worthwhile thought.
Doug
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...> wrote:
hallmark of the PB&F design out put for the last decade. Fair to
guess that these are primarily SA sponsored designs too. And these
boats are marked by a central theme which is: lighter, smaller,
simpler, cheaper fishing boats can save the global fisheries industry.
The central theme: Simplicity.
True, PB&F ultra simple heyday was the 1975-85 were the Instantboats.
Frankly, there are only so many Teals, Windsprints and Zephyr shapes
possible before you run out of possibilities. It is understandable
that they have moved on, that idea was running dry.
> However, it's now clear, based on the postings over the last few weeks, thatI disagree. The series of "Advanced Fisherman" designs has been the
> Phil will not be taking on new projects, and Susan has shown herself not to
> be the master of simplicity in design ...
hallmark of the PB&F design out put for the last decade. Fair to
guess that these are primarily SA sponsored designs too. And these
boats are marked by a central theme which is: lighter, smaller,
simpler, cheaper fishing boats can save the global fisheries industry.
The central theme: Simplicity.
True, PB&F ultra simple heyday was the 1975-85 were the Instantboats.
Frankly, there are only so many Teals, Windsprints and Zephyr shapes
possible before you run out of possibilities. It is understandable
that they have moved on, that idea was running dry.
Atkin had it right for his time, materials and technology, which was the
1930s and 40s. This doesn't preclude the need for some new designs today. I
brought up Bolger in the original posting because he has been a master of
the parsimonious solution, coming up with designs that do the most with the
least. I think a tunnel stern Fish Hawk would be a good project.
However, it's now clear, based on the postings over the last few weeks, that
Phil will not be taking on new projects, and Susan has shown herself not to
be the master of simplicity in design and commentary that Phil is. Susan
likes complexity, which is quite the opposite of Phil. Robb White, in spite
of his aw-shucks writing, also loved complexity within simplicity, because
of his desire for the lightest possible construction to accomplish a task.
His boats are simple, but the construction of them is not, and is not easily
adaptable to the abilities of most people.
The original posting was prompted by discussions with my neighbor, who is an
avid catfish fisherman. His boat is a large johnboat with a 180 hp. outboard
jet drive. It was costing him $2 per mile for fuel this summer. I gave him
copies of articles on Robb White's version of Rescue Minor. I think Robb's
Rescue Minor is an absolutely fantastic boat, but it would be difficult for
most people to replicate it. A simpler solution is called for.
Fred Schumacher
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:02 AM, daschultz2000
<daschultz8275@...>wrote:
1930s and 40s. This doesn't preclude the need for some new designs today. I
brought up Bolger in the original posting because he has been a master of
the parsimonious solution, coming up with designs that do the most with the
least. I think a tunnel stern Fish Hawk would be a good project.
However, it's now clear, based on the postings over the last few weeks, that
Phil will not be taking on new projects, and Susan has shown herself not to
be the master of simplicity in design and commentary that Phil is. Susan
likes complexity, which is quite the opposite of Phil. Robb White, in spite
of his aw-shucks writing, also loved complexity within simplicity, because
of his desire for the lightest possible construction to accomplish a task.
His boats are simple, but the construction of them is not, and is not easily
adaptable to the abilities of most people.
The original posting was prompted by discussions with my neighbor, who is an
avid catfish fisherman. His boat is a large johnboat with a 180 hp. outboard
jet drive. It was costing him $2 per mile for fuel this summer. I gave him
copies of articles on Robb White's version of Rescue Minor. I think Robb's
Rescue Minor is an absolutely fantastic boat, but it would be difficult for
most people to replicate it. A simpler solution is called for.
Fred Schumacher
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:02 AM, daschultz2000
<daschultz8275@...>wrote:
> Hmmm,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Atkin apparently had it right, so why redo it?
>
Hmmm,
Atkin apparently had it right, so why redo it? All the attributes of
the Atkin design you cite seem true based on video I've seen. Atkin
did many variations of this interesting design including a hi-speed
tanker he drew during WWII. He believed the hull shape would work
over an amazing range of scale.
The one tunnel I've seen from Bolger is in "The Folding Schooner", and
I think is called plywood utility for amateur builders. A 22' that's
kinda homely on paper, it has very crude tunnel compared to the
sophisticated shape of Atkin's tunnel sterns like Rescue Minor. If I
were to build the Bolger utility, I think I'd build it w/o the tunnel
and hang a pair of outboards on the back.
Don
Atkin apparently had it right, so why redo it? All the attributes of
the Atkin design you cite seem true based on video I've seen. Atkin
did many variations of this interesting design including a hi-speed
tanker he drew during WWII. He believed the hull shape would work
over an amazing range of scale.
The one tunnel I've seen from Bolger is in "The Folding Schooner", and
I think is called plywood utility for amateur builders. A 22' that's
kinda homely on paper, it has very crude tunnel compared to the
sophisticated shape of Atkin's tunnel sterns like Rescue Minor. If I
were to build the Bolger utility, I think I'd build it w/o the tunnel
and hang a pair of outboards on the back.
Don
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Schumacher" <fredschum@...> wrote:
>
> It would be good if Phil would design a new parsimonious tunnel-stern
> sportsfishing boat for 15 hp. max. The pleasure boat industry is really
> tanking these days. We noticed the decline this summer in northern
> Minnesota, a place where the simple fish boat with a 3 horse kicker
used to
> be the rule.....
>
> Why tunnel-stern? I was really impressed with Robb White's modified
Atkin
> Rescue Minor. It'll float on spit and no worries about rocks and logs.
>
Mark,
Yes. I wrote Bolger in July 2008. I thanked him for designing the Long
Micro, enclosed some pictures, and asked a few questions about the
boat's performance. I also enclosed a check for the plans, as I had
purchased my plans for CSD in 1998. After all the money and time I
spent on the boat, it seemed proper to pay the man who designed the
boat and gave me so much joy. Bolger responded promptly with a nice,
two page, handwritten letter.
I don't know Bolger well at all, but since he's reported to be a
staunch libertarian, I generally think of him as a male version of
Ayn Rand. I wrote my letter to him with that image in mind- fair
money as a reward for excellent work. I don't know if I would have
received as prompt a response had I NOT enclosed a check, but
considering the foolish things I have wasted my money on, paying
Bolger for his plans will never keep me awake at night.
I would re-fax Bolger. I would be surprised if you had any issues
receiving your plans.
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
Yes. I wrote Bolger in July 2008. I thanked him for designing the Long
Micro, enclosed some pictures, and asked a few questions about the
boat's performance. I also enclosed a check for the plans, as I had
purchased my plans for CSD in 1998. After all the money and time I
spent on the boat, it seemed proper to pay the man who designed the
boat and gave me so much joy. Bolger responded promptly with a nice,
two page, handwritten letter.
I don't know Bolger well at all, but since he's reported to be a
staunch libertarian, I generally think of him as a male version of
Ayn Rand. I wrote my letter to him with that image in mind- fair
money as a reward for excellent work. I don't know if I would have
received as prompt a response had I NOT enclosed a check, but
considering the foolish things I have wasted my money on, paying
Bolger for his plans will never keep me awake at night.
I would re-fax Bolger. I would be surprised if you had any issues
receiving your plans.
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
>
>
> I faxed PB&F a month ago to confirm the current fee for the Diamond
> Cruising Kayak, with no reply. Holiday season I wasn't too worried,
> and had, Bruce, your Freeship file to keep me warm.
>
> Just about to send money based upon the previous listing, but reading
> this thread only just now, I wonder... Has anyone here gotten a
> response to a general inquiry or order about any of the stock small
> boat plans lately.
>
> Mark
>
Yes, I have had a reply from them, dated 9th December 2008, in response to a
letter I sent them in November. My query was about Topaz and some
modifications to the design. They responded with study plans to Blackliner,
design #679-B Monitor version with a price and request of my phone number to
discuss design options.
I haven¹t replied yet, as I am still deciding.
Stuart.
letter I sent them in November. My query was about Topaz and some
modifications to the design. They responded with study plans to Blackliner,
design #679-B Monitor version with a price and request of my phone number to
discuss design options.
I haven¹t replied yet, as I am still deciding.
Stuart.
On 8/1/09 2:11 PM, "Mark Albanese" <marka@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I faxed PB&F a month ago to confirm the current fee for the Diamond
> Cruising Kayak, with no reply. Holiday season I wasn't too worried,
> and had, Bruce, your Freeship file to keep me warm.
>
> Just about to send money based upon the previous listing, but reading
> this thread only just now, I wonder... Has anyone here gotten a
> response to a general inquiry or order about any of the stock small
> boat plans lately.
>
> Mark
--
http://nomadichome.blogspot.com
http://keltwegiankiwi.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I faxed PB&F a month ago to confirm the current fee for the Diamond
Cruising Kayak, with no reply. Holiday season I wasn't too worried,
and had, Bruce, your Freeship file to keep me warm.
Just about to send money based upon the previous listing, but reading
this thread only just now, I wonder... Has anyone here gotten a
response to a general inquiry or order about any of the stock small
boat plans lately.
Mark
Cruising Kayak, with no reply. Holiday season I wasn't too worried,
and had, Bruce, your Freeship file to keep me warm.
Just about to send money based upon the previous listing, but reading
this thread only just now, I wonder... Has anyone here gotten a
response to a general inquiry or order about any of the stock small
boat plans lately.
Mark
While the general statement about women was uncalled for, If Nels'
experience, along with the recent comments about problems getting plans
from PB&F, reflects the situation at PB&F accurately I would conclude
that 1.) Bolger is done as a creative force 2.) SA may not have even
the rudimentary marketing skills of P. Bolger. This may mean that most
of Bolger's body of work is at risk of literally going down with the
ship.
I have often thought that a few months of organizing, and cataloging of
PB&F designs, along with a pulling together of his many fine essays
about the designs could result in a very healthy web based plans
business. At a minimum it would look like the John & William Atkins,
or Michalak website presentations, but hopefully something better.
Don
experience, along with the recent comments about problems getting plans
from PB&F, reflects the situation at PB&F accurately I would conclude
that 1.) Bolger is done as a creative force 2.) SA may not have even
the rudimentary marketing skills of P. Bolger. This may mean that most
of Bolger's body of work is at risk of literally going down with the
ship.
I have often thought that a few months of organizing, and cataloging of
PB&F designs, along with a pulling together of his many fine essays
about the designs could result in a very healthy web based plans
business. At a minimum it would look like the John & William Atkins,
or Michalak website presentations, but hopefully something better.
Don
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" <mhamill1@...> wrote:
>
> I concur--unfortunately the only smart and energetic women I'll have
> by my side when I am 81 will probably either be a nurse or an
> undertaker:)
>
I concur--unfortunately the only smart and energetic women I'll have
by my side when I am 81 will probably either be a nurse or an
undertaker:)
by my side when I am 81 will probably either be a nurse or an
undertaker:)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
wrote:
> >
> >> Beware an ambitious woman with her own agenda
> >
> > Beware silly and meaningless sexist comments. Is it the ambition
you
> > disapprove of, or the gender? Or of ambition among women?
>
> I ditto Chris on this.
>
> And beyond: When I am 81, I hope to have a smart energetic woman by
my
> side. I don't know the details of course but from my vantage point,
> PCB appears to be very lucky.
>
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
And beyond: When I am 81, I hope to have a smart energetic woman by my
side. I don't know the details of course but from my vantage point,
PCB appears to be very lucky.
>I ditto Chris on this.
>> Beware an ambitious woman with her own agenda
>
> Beware silly and meaningless sexist comments. Is it the ambition you
> disapprove of, or the gender? Or of ambition among women?
And beyond: When I am 81, I hope to have a smart energetic woman by my
side. I don't know the details of course but from my vantage point,
PCB appears to be very lucky.
> Beware an ambitious woman with her own agendaBeware silly and meaningless sexist comments. Is it the ambition you
disapprove of, or the gender? Or of ambition among women?
Hi Bill,
Lately, small boating has really taken hold of us. We used seven
different small plywood boats in the last two seasons for various
outings. These experiences led to ideas for improvements in future
small boats. I've compiled a long list of weeks/months-long adventures
we could spend many years pursuing in small boats. But that requires
keeping a home base somewhere, which we had not been planning all these
years and requires a different financial plan. It's going to take some
time to figure out what we really want to do.
I just finished, save for the spars, a 20' version of Windsprint (most
of which is on my website), and I'm a couple weekends away from
completing a rowing-only 25% stretch of Gypsy. I'll get photos of that
one up as soon as I update my website. These two boats provided
experience with separate techniques for stretching existing designs.
The Windsprint is intended to provide us with experience at
singlehanding, since the Light Schooner is such a handful. It has holds
for camping gear and we hope to make overnight trips in it.
The Gypsy stretch is going to be a fishing/camping getaway vehicle for
me and my dog. It's decked over with dry storage for gear. I'm
planning to row it on Blue Mesa (Curecanti N.R.A) this summer, and
possibly the Lower Columbia Water Trail this fall. A sliding seat is
in the works for this one.
I just started a simple flat water float tripper of my own design.
It's sort of a cross between a Colorado River driftboat and Michalak's
Ozarkian, if you can imagine that. We're hoping to float Little Yampa
Canyon this year, and do Labyrinth Canyon and the Missouri River Breaks
as time permits.
The original plan was to get started on "the big one" after that, but
who knows what's really next now.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> I hope you haven't given up your dream of sailing away. Any thoughtsAfter seeing the recent video, Long Micro looks pretty good!
> on your next boat?
Lately, small boating has really taken hold of us. We used seven
different small plywood boats in the last two seasons for various
outings. These experiences led to ideas for improvements in future
small boats. I've compiled a long list of weeks/months-long adventures
we could spend many years pursuing in small boats. But that requires
keeping a home base somewhere, which we had not been planning all these
years and requires a different financial plan. It's going to take some
time to figure out what we really want to do.
I just finished, save for the spars, a 20' version of Windsprint (most
of which is on my website), and I'm a couple weekends away from
completing a rowing-only 25% stretch of Gypsy. I'll get photos of that
one up as soon as I update my website. These two boats provided
experience with separate techniques for stretching existing designs.
The Windsprint is intended to provide us with experience at
singlehanding, since the Light Schooner is such a handful. It has holds
for camping gear and we hope to make overnight trips in it.
The Gypsy stretch is going to be a fishing/camping getaway vehicle for
me and my dog. It's decked over with dry storage for gear. I'm
planning to row it on Blue Mesa (Curecanti N.R.A) this summer, and
possibly the Lower Columbia Water Trail this fall. A sliding seat is
in the works for this one.
I just started a simple flat water float tripper of my own design.
It's sort of a cross between a Colorado River driftboat and Michalak's
Ozarkian, if you can imagine that. We're hoping to float Little Yampa
Canyon this year, and do Labyrinth Canyon and the Missouri River Breaks
as time permits.
The original plan was to get started on "the big one" after that, but
who knows what's really next now.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Beware an ambitious woman with her own agenda:) I suppose if it took
10 years to finally come up with the plans and you had, by then,
become to old to build, she would blame you for growing old. You are
more patient than I. I could never wait for for 7 years! Hope you can
quickly come up with something more practical so you can get on with
your cruising. I have found that with the world such a mess,cruising
our own coast and rivers seems a much better choice anyway.
Bob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
10 years to finally come up with the plans and you had, by then,
become to old to build, she would blame you for growing old. You are
more patient than I. I could never wait for for 7 years! Hope you can
quickly come up with something more practical so you can get on with
your cruising. I have found that with the world such a mess,cruising
our own coast and rivers seems a much better choice anyway.
Bob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Don,
>
> > Curious to know if those with outstanding commissions ( 1 is 7 years
> > old?) are seeing any progress now that the big gov'mnt project is
> > reported to be complete.
>
> We gave up on our commission, #668 Auriga, this past fall. Here's a
> rather long account of what we know and what happened. It's an
> unhappy story that I wasn't sure I should relate, but honestly I feel
> better getting to tell it to an audience with an interest.
>
> The navy job, as far as I've been told by PB&F, ended some time ago.
> There was a technical paper to be published, a copy of which we were
> promised but never received. I'm not sure if it ever went to print.
>
> Last February, after more than a year of no response to our letters,
> we received a phone call out of the blue from Phil. He said they
> were back on track and would be working on nothing else but our
> commission, that all of our outstanding questions over the previous
> seven years would be answered, and thanked us for our patience and
> understanding. A couple of unspecified health issues were mentioned.
> This was not the first time we had been called out of the blue and
> told they were finally working on our design, but it sounded more
> definitive than the previous commitments.
>
> Several letters and phone calls were exchanged, and we finally got
> our first real look at her since the original proposal in 2001. We
> received four detail sheets. By this time, Auriga had grown from a
> slender 49' x 10' x 25" to over 50' x 12'-6" x about the same draft.
> Her displacement went to over 30k lbs. The design was considerably
> more complex than the original proposal. For example, the engine
> room had gone from being "outdoors" under a stern launching ramp to
> being fully enclosed and requiring complex custom sheet metal
> ducting. She now had three rudders. The rig got more complicated,
> too, with additional standing rigging and more sail area. There was
> a suggestion that we should install a navigation monitor in the head
> connected wirelessly to the nav monitor at the inside steering
> station.
>
> Prior to getting the detail sheets, I asked if the stern deck could
> accomodate a Jinni skiff in addition to the 12' FastBrick (which I
> completed building two years ago but have yet to launch), Phil said
> yes on the phone and I thought it was settled, but a few days later
> we got a drawing of an all-new design that folded up and had a
> battened cat-schooner rig - the "Perfect Skiff '08" most of you have
> seen in MAIB. What you didn't see is the completely unworkable
> original design that featured three rudders, two centerboards, eight
> spars, and had an offset mainmast that made it impossible to sit on
> the rail on the port tack. All of this to reproduce the capability
> of the simple and elegant Jinni. On top of that, it had been
> determined that the port side of Auriga should now have a large
> recess built in to accomodate the folded-up skiff, and that an
> expensive welded steel davit assembly would launch it.
>
> The aesthetics of the sheerline and wheel house had long been a
> concern to us, and we had been promised back in 2003 or thereabout
> that Phil would make a stab at a new sheerline, but this never
> happened. Last year, we were promised several simpler, more
> traditional wheelhouse sketches, but never saw them either.
>
> While waiting for answers to our questions on the detail drawings, I
> did another round of preliminary costing, based on what I could glean
> from the detail sheets. The cost of building her had more than
> doubled since my original estimate in 2003. Some items had nearly
> tripled. Most of this was due to poor exchange rates (Deutz and
> Sillete components) and high commodity prices (epoxy, coatings,
> metals, etc.). We also fielded a couple of calls asking us to resend
> our rather long list of questions, as they had lost our file at one
> point, and some individual letters at another.
>
> At this point we had a long talk about our goals, requirements,
> capabilities, and resources, and realized several things almost
> simultaneously:
>
> 1) Like the frog slowly boiled, we had been incrementally agreeing to
> seemingly minor changes that, taken together, made our boat
> enormously more complicated than the simple boat we had in mind back
> in 2001.
>
> 2) The source of this complexity was Susanne, not Phil. In fact,
> there was very little Phil Bolger in this design anymore, it was
> clearly Susanne's work, and it met nearly none of the most important
> original requirements we wrote down back in 2001. There was none of
> the simple functionality that drew us to PB&F in the first place.
> Still, we bore much of the blame for agreeing to many of these
> complications.
>
> 3) We could not afford to build the boat as it was currently designed.
>
> 4) Even if we could afford it, working alone and part time it would
> take me at least 10 years to complete, putting us both near or over
> 60 when we finally got to sail her.
>
> 5) The boat as designed would cost a lot of money to operate and
> maintain once it was in the water.
>
> 6) The size of the boat and rig, and especially the complexity of the
> rig, were more than Nancy could confidently singlehand. The double
> sloop rig has six halyards, four sheets, and requires reefing at
> least two of the four sails at a time (at least it looks that way -
> we never got an answer to that question, either).
>
> 7) PB&F were once again working on other projects and not only our
> commission. We could tell this from the fishing boat articles and
> their comments to us. We had no confidence that they would ever
> complete the design and we were worn out waiting for it.
>
> 8) Given all of the above, especially the cost and complexity issues,
> we would have to scale back our goals to coastal and island cruising
> rather than ocean crossing world cruising and require a design more
> suited to that style of cruising.
>
> With heavy heart after investing our money and seven and a half years
> of our lives in the project, in October we wrote a one-page letter to
> PB&F informing them of our decision to terminate the commission and
> giving them most of the reasons described above. We asked if they
> would help us identify an existing design that was much smaller,
> simpler, less expensive, and less time-consuming to build. We
> expected that they would either be very disappointed or elated to get
> the project out of the way, but were hopeful that we could purchase
> one of their existing designs.
>
> What we got in response was obviously written by Susanne, and
> consisted of five pages of 10-point dismay, anger, condecension, and
> insult. It contained demonstrably wrong assertions about what we had
> agreed to in the past. The most disturbing was that they (she?)
> thought that we would "take the project seriously enough" to both
> quit our jobs and build full time completely indoors as soon as we
> got the plans. She even laid out a timetable for us to give notice.
> She wrote that PB&F would have nothing to do with the project if it
> was to be built part-time and outdoors, especially in Colorado.
>
> There was also a paragraph listing several recent commissions for
> large boats that never got built, or partially built, or the client
> had changed their plans. At least one (thankfully unnamed) client
> was ridiculed for deciding to do something different with his life.
>
> We were devastated. We had clearly communicated to them in writing
> that I would be working alone and outdoors way back in 2003. We even
> bought land in 2003 and erected a small workshop in 2004 specifically
> for this purpose - I had just sent them photos of the place back in
> February. They had never mentioned these preconditions previously.
> There were many other points of serious miscommunication or
> disagreement in her letter. We supposed we would be added to the
> paragraph of unfulfilled commissions in any similar letters to future
> clients.
>
> After some careful thought, we replied with another letter pointing
> out where we disagreed, and noted our displeasure with some of the
> comments. We once again asked that they help us identify a simpler
> design. We told them we didn't want our association to end badly,
> and preferably not end at all.
>
> That was in early November of last year. We have not heard back, and
> sadly, I doubt we will ever hear from them again, unless it is to be
> excoriated in some future MAIB column.
>
> #668 is a great design, clever at every turn and no doubt a perfect
> home afloat for someone. We hope the design gets finished and
> somebody builds it, but unfortunately it can't be us. At this point
> we are still trying to determine what we're going to build.
>
>
> Jon
>
Jon
Thank you for sharing your experience with us all. I appreciate the
time you put into writing your reply. I had enjoyed hearing about
your shop (when you could get to it thru the snow) and watching your
build your dingy. It's heartbreaking to see how this ended, given the
time and energy you invested and the negative tone adopted by PBF.
Just a shame.
I hope you haven't given up your dream of sailing away. Any thoughts
on your next boat?
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
Thank you for sharing your experience with us all. I appreciate the
time you put into writing your reply. I had enjoyed hearing about
your shop (when you could get to it thru the snow) and watching your
build your dingy. It's heartbreaking to see how this ended, given the
time and energy you invested and the negative tone adopted by PBF.
Just a shame.
I hope you haven't given up your dream of sailing away. Any thoughts
on your next boat?
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
Jon,
Thanks. Glad you wrote that.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
Thanks. Glad you wrote that.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 5 Jan, 2009, at 11:22 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
> Hi Don,
>
> > Curious to know if those with outstanding commissions ( 1 is 7 years
> > old?) are seeing any progress now that the big gov'mnt project is
> > reported to be complete.
>
> We gave up on our commission, #668 Auriga, this past fall. Here's a
> rather long account of what we know and what happened. It's an
> unhappy story that I wasn't sure I should relate, but honestly I feel
> better getting to tell it to an audience with an interest.
>
> The navy job, as far as I've been told by PB&F, ended some time ago.
> There was a technical paper to be published, a copy of which we were
> promised but never received. I'm not sure if it ever went to print.
>
> Last February, after more than a year of no response to our letters,
> we received a phone call out of the blue from Phil. He said they
> were back on track and would be working on nothing else but our
> commission, that all of our outstanding questions over the previous
> seven years would be answered, and thanked us for our patience and
> understanding. A couple of unspecified health issues were mentioned.
> This was not the first time we had been called out of the blue and
> told they were finally working on our design, but it sounded more
> definitive than the previous commitments.
>
> Several letters and phone calls were exchanged, and we finally got
> our first real look at her since the original proposal in 2001. We
> received four detail sheets. By this time, Auriga had grown from a
> slender 49' x 10' x 25" to over 50' x 12'-6" x about the same draft.
> Her displacement went to over 30k lbs. The design was considerably
> more complex than the original proposal. For example, the engine
> room had gone from being "outdoors" under a stern launching ramp to
> being fully enclosed and requiring complex custom sheet metal
> ducting. She now had three rudders. The rig got more complicated,
> too, with additional standing rigging and more sail area. There was
> a suggestion that we should install a navigation monitor in the head
> connected wirelessly to the nav monitor at the inside steering
> station.
>
> Prior to getting the detail sheets, I asked if the stern deck could
> accomodate a Jinni skiff in addition to the 12' FastBrick (which I
> completed building two years ago but have yet to launch), Phil said
> yes on the phone and I thought it was settled, but a few days later
> we got a drawing of an all-new design that folded up and had a
> battened cat-schooner rig - the "Perfect Skiff '08" most of you have
> seen in MAIB. What you didn't see is the completely unworkable
> original design that featured three rudders, two centerboards, eight
> spars, and had an offset mainmast that made it impossible to sit on
> the rail on the port tack. All of this to reproduce the capability
> of the simple and elegant Jinni. On top of that, it had been
> determined that the port side of Auriga should now have a large
> recess built in to accomodate the folded-up skiff, and that an
> expensive welded steel davit assembly would launch it.
>
> The aesthetics of the sheerline and wheel house had long been a
> concern to us, and we had been promised back in 2003 or thereabout
> that Phil would make a stab at a new sheerline, but this never
> happened. Last year, we were promised several simpler, more
> traditional wheelhouse sketches, but never saw them either.
>
> While waiting for answers to our questions on the detail drawings, I
> did another round of preliminary costing, based on what I could glean
> from the detail sheets. The cost of building her had more than
> doubled since my original estimate in 2003. Some items had nearly
> tripled. Most of this was due to poor exchange rates (Deutz and
> Sillete components) and high commodity prices (epoxy, coatings,
> metals, etc.). We also fielded a couple of calls asking us to resend
> our rather long list of questions, as they had lost our file at one
> point, and some individual letters at another.
>
> At this point we had a long talk about our goals, requirements,
> capabilities, and resources, and realized several things almost
> simultaneously:
>
> 1) Like the frog slowly boiled, we had been incrementally agreeing to
> seemingly minor changes that, taken together, made our boat
> enormously more complicated than the simple boat we had in mind back
> in 2001.
>
> 2) The source of this complexity was Susanne, not Phil. In fact,
> there was very little Phil Bolger in this design anymore, it was
> clearly Susanne's work, and it met nearly none of the most important
> original requirements we wrote down back in 2001. There was none of
> the simple functionality that drew us to PB&F in the first place.
> Still, we bore much of the blame for agreeing to many of these
> complications.
>
> 3) We could not afford to build the boat as it was currently designed.
>
> 4) Even if we could afford it, working alone and part time it would
> take me at least 10 years to complete, putting us both near or over
> 60 when we finally got to sail her.
>
> 5) The boat as designed would cost a lot of money to operate and
> maintain once it was in the water.
>
> 6) The size of the boat and rig, and especially the complexity of the
> rig, were more than Nancy could confidently singlehand. The double
> sloop rig has six halyards, four sheets, and requires reefing at
> least two of the four sails at a time (at least it looks that way -
> we never got an answer to that question, either).
>
> 7) PB&F were once again working on other projects and not only our
> commission. We could tell this from the fishing boat articles and
> their comments to us. We had no confidence that they would ever
> complete the design and we were worn out waiting for it.
>
> 8) Given all of the above, especially the cost and complexity issues,
> we would have to scale back our goals to coastal and island cruising
> rather than ocean crossing world cruising and require a design more
> suited to that style of cruising.
>
> With heavy heart after investing our money and seven and a half years
> of our lives in the project, in October we wrote a one-page letter to
> PB&F informing them of our decision to terminate the commission and
> giving them most of the reasons described above. We asked if they
> would help us identify an existing design that was much smaller,
> simpler, less expensive, and less time-consuming to build. We
> expected that they would either be very disappointed or elated to get
> the project out of the way, but were hopeful that we could purchase
> one of their existing designs.
>
> What we got in response was obviously written by Susanne, and
> consisted of five pages of 10-point dismay, anger, condecension, and
> insult. It contained demonstrably wrong assertions about what we had
> agreed to in the past. The most disturbing was that they (she?)
> thought that we would "take the project seriously enough" to both
> quit our jobs and build full time completely indoors as soon as we
> got the plans. She even laid out a timetable for us to give notice.
> She wrote that PB&F would have nothing to do with the project if it
> was to be built part-time and outdoors, especially in Colorado.
>
> There was also a paragraph listing several recent commissions for
> large boats that never got built, or partially built, or the client
> had changed their plans. At least one (thankfully unnamed) client
> was ridiculed for deciding to do something different with his life.
>
> We were devastated. We had clearly communicated to them in writing
> that I would be working alone and outdoors way back in 2003. We even
> bought land in 2003 and erected a small workshop in 2004 specifically
> for this purpose - I had just sent them photos of the place back in
> February. They had never mentioned these preconditions previously.
> There were many other points of serious miscommunication or
> disagreement in her letter. We supposed we would be added to the
> paragraph of unfulfilled commissions in any similar letters to future
> clients.
>
> After some careful thought, we replied with another letter pointing
> out where we disagreed, and noted our displeasure with some of the
> comments. We once again asked that they help us identify a simpler
> design. We told them we didn't want our association to end badly,
> and preferably not end at all.
>
> That was in early November of last year. We have not heard back, and
> sadly, I doubt we will ever hear from them again, unless it is to be
> excoriated in some future MAIB column.
>
> #668 is a great design, clever at every turn and no doubt a perfect
> home afloat for someone. We hope the design gets finished and
> somebody builds it, but unfortunately it can't be us. At this point
> we are still trying to determine what we're going to build.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> A couple of unspecified health issues were mentioned.Small issues, I hope. Anybody know more specifics?
Jon,
Sorry to here your experience went so badly. I had hoped we were going
to start seeing more of Phil's work coming out but it sounds like it is
mainly the Susanne show now and a quite different product.
Paul H.
Sorry to here your experience went so badly. I had hoped we were going
to start seeing more of Phil's work coming out but it sounds like it is
mainly the Susanne show now and a quite different product.
Paul H.
Hi Don,
rather long account of what we know and what happened. It's an
unhappy story that I wasn't sure I should relate, but honestly I feel
better getting to tell it to an audience with an interest.
The navy job, as far as I've been told by PB&F, ended some time ago.
There was a technical paper to be published, a copy of which we were
promised but never received. I'm not sure if it ever went to print.
Last February, after more than a year of no response to our letters,
we received a phone call out of the blue from Phil. He said they
were back on track and would be working on nothing else but our
commission, that all of our outstanding questions over the previous
seven years would be answered, and thanked us for our patience and
understanding. A couple of unspecified health issues were mentioned.
This was not the first time we had been called out of the blue and
told they were finally working on our design, but it sounded more
definitive than the previous commitments.
Several letters and phone calls were exchanged, and we finally got
our first real look at her since the original proposal in 2001. We
received four detail sheets. By this time, Auriga had grown from a
slender 49' x 10' x 25" to over 50' x 12'-6" x about the same draft.
Her displacement went to over 30k lbs. The design was considerably
more complex than the original proposal. For example, the engine
room had gone from being "outdoors" under a stern launching ramp to
being fully enclosed and requiring complex custom sheet metal
ducting. She now had three rudders. The rig got more complicated,
too, with additional standing rigging and more sail area. There was
a suggestion that we should install a navigation monitor in the head
connected wirelessly to the nav monitor at the inside steering
station.
Prior to getting the detail sheets, I asked if the stern deck could
accomodate a Jinni skiff in addition to the 12' FastBrick (which I
completed building two years ago but have yet to launch), Phil said
yes on the phone and I thought it was settled, but a few days later
we got a drawing of an all-new design that folded up and had a
battened cat-schooner rig - the "Perfect Skiff '08" most of you have
seen in MAIB. What you didn't see is the completely unworkable
original design that featured three rudders, two centerboards, eight
spars, and had an offset mainmast that made it impossible to sit on
the rail on the port tack. All of this to reproduce the capability
of the simple and elegant Jinni. On top of that, it had been
determined that the port side of Auriga should now have a large
recess built in to accomodate the folded-up skiff, and that an
expensive welded steel davit assembly would launch it.
The aesthetics of the sheerline and wheel house had long been a
concern to us, and we had been promised back in 2003 or thereabout
that Phil would make a stab at a new sheerline, but this never
happened. Last year, we were promised several simpler, more
traditional wheelhouse sketches, but never saw them either.
While waiting for answers to our questions on the detail drawings, I
did another round of preliminary costing, based on what I could glean
from the detail sheets. The cost of building her had more than
doubled since my original estimate in 2003. Some items had nearly
tripled. Most of this was due to poor exchange rates (Deutz and
Sillete components) and high commodity prices (epoxy, coatings,
metals, etc.). We also fielded a couple of calls asking us to resend
our rather long list of questions, as they had lost our file at one
point, and some individual letters at another.
At this point we had a long talk about our goals, requirements,
capabilities, and resources, and realized several things almost
simultaneously:
1) Like the frog slowly boiled, we had been incrementally agreeing to
seemingly minor changes that, taken together, made our boat
enormously more complicated than the simple boat we had in mind back
in 2001.
2) The source of this complexity was Susanne, not Phil. In fact,
there was very little Phil Bolger in this design anymore, it was
clearly Susanne's work, and it met nearly none of the most important
original requirements we wrote down back in 2001. There was none of
the simple functionality that drew us to PB&F in the first place.
Still, we bore much of the blame for agreeing to many of these
complications.
3) We could not afford to build the boat as it was currently designed.
4) Even if we could afford it, working alone and part time it would
take me at least 10 years to complete, putting us both near or over
60 when we finally got to sail her.
5) The boat as designed would cost a lot of money to operate and
maintain once it was in the water.
6) The size of the boat and rig, and especially the complexity of the
rig, were more than Nancy could confidently singlehand. The double
sloop rig has six halyards, four sheets, and requires reefing at
least two of the four sails at a time (at least it looks that way -
we never got an answer to that question, either).
7) PB&F were once again working on other projects and not only our
commission. We could tell this from the fishing boat articles and
their comments to us. We had no confidence that they would ever
complete the design and we were worn out waiting for it.
8) Given all of the above, especially the cost and complexity issues,
we would have to scale back our goals to coastal and island cruising
rather than ocean crossing world cruising and require a design more
suited to that style of cruising.
With heavy heart after investing our money and seven and a half years
of our lives in the project, in October we wrote a one-page letter to
PB&F informing them of our decision to terminate the commission and
giving them most of the reasons described above. We asked if they
would help us identify an existing design that was much smaller,
simpler, less expensive, and less time-consuming to build. We
expected that they would either be very disappointed or elated to get
the project out of the way, but were hopeful that we could purchase
one of their existing designs.
What we got in response was obviously written by Susanne, and
consisted of five pages of 10-point dismay, anger, condecension, and
insult. It contained demonstrably wrong assertions about what we had
agreed to in the past. The most disturbing was that they (she?)
thought that we would "take the project seriously enough" to both
quit our jobs and build full time completely indoors as soon as we
got the plans. She even laid out a timetable for us to give notice.
She wrote that PB&F would have nothing to do with the project if it
was to be built part-time and outdoors, especially in Colorado.
There was also a paragraph listing several recent commissions for
large boats that never got built, or partially built, or the client
had changed their plans. At least one (thankfully unnamed) client
was ridiculed for deciding to do something different with his life.
We were devastated. We had clearly communicated to them in writing
that I would be working alone and outdoors way back in 2003. We even
bought land in 2003 and erected a small workshop in 2004 specifically
for this purpose - I had just sent them photos of the place back in
February. They had never mentioned these preconditions previously.
There were many other points of serious miscommunication or
disagreement in her letter. We supposed we would be added to the
paragraph of unfulfilled commissions in any similar letters to future
clients.
After some careful thought, we replied with another letter pointing
out where we disagreed, and noted our displeasure with some of the
comments. We once again asked that they help us identify a simpler
design. We told them we didn't want our association to end badly,
and preferably not end at all.
That was in early November of last year. We have not heard back, and
sadly, I doubt we will ever hear from them again, unless it is to be
excoriated in some future MAIB column.
#668 is a great design, clever at every turn and no doubt a perfect
home afloat for someone. We hope the design gets finished and
somebody builds it, but unfortunately it can't be us. At this point
we are still trying to determine what we're going to build.
Jon
> Curious to know if those with outstanding commissions ( 1 is 7 yearsWe gave up on our commission, #668 Auriga, this past fall. Here's a
> old?) are seeing any progress now that the big gov'mnt project is
> reported to be complete.
rather long account of what we know and what happened. It's an
unhappy story that I wasn't sure I should relate, but honestly I feel
better getting to tell it to an audience with an interest.
The navy job, as far as I've been told by PB&F, ended some time ago.
There was a technical paper to be published, a copy of which we were
promised but never received. I'm not sure if it ever went to print.
Last February, after more than a year of no response to our letters,
we received a phone call out of the blue from Phil. He said they
were back on track and would be working on nothing else but our
commission, that all of our outstanding questions over the previous
seven years would be answered, and thanked us for our patience and
understanding. A couple of unspecified health issues were mentioned.
This was not the first time we had been called out of the blue and
told they were finally working on our design, but it sounded more
definitive than the previous commitments.
Several letters and phone calls were exchanged, and we finally got
our first real look at her since the original proposal in 2001. We
received four detail sheets. By this time, Auriga had grown from a
slender 49' x 10' x 25" to over 50' x 12'-6" x about the same draft.
Her displacement went to over 30k lbs. The design was considerably
more complex than the original proposal. For example, the engine
room had gone from being "outdoors" under a stern launching ramp to
being fully enclosed and requiring complex custom sheet metal
ducting. She now had three rudders. The rig got more complicated,
too, with additional standing rigging and more sail area. There was
a suggestion that we should install a navigation monitor in the head
connected wirelessly to the nav monitor at the inside steering
station.
Prior to getting the detail sheets, I asked if the stern deck could
accomodate a Jinni skiff in addition to the 12' FastBrick (which I
completed building two years ago but have yet to launch), Phil said
yes on the phone and I thought it was settled, but a few days later
we got a drawing of an all-new design that folded up and had a
battened cat-schooner rig - the "Perfect Skiff '08" most of you have
seen in MAIB. What you didn't see is the completely unworkable
original design that featured three rudders, two centerboards, eight
spars, and had an offset mainmast that made it impossible to sit on
the rail on the port tack. All of this to reproduce the capability
of the simple and elegant Jinni. On top of that, it had been
determined that the port side of Auriga should now have a large
recess built in to accomodate the folded-up skiff, and that an
expensive welded steel davit assembly would launch it.
The aesthetics of the sheerline and wheel house had long been a
concern to us, and we had been promised back in 2003 or thereabout
that Phil would make a stab at a new sheerline, but this never
happened. Last year, we were promised several simpler, more
traditional wheelhouse sketches, but never saw them either.
While waiting for answers to our questions on the detail drawings, I
did another round of preliminary costing, based on what I could glean
from the detail sheets. The cost of building her had more than
doubled since my original estimate in 2003. Some items had nearly
tripled. Most of this was due to poor exchange rates (Deutz and
Sillete components) and high commodity prices (epoxy, coatings,
metals, etc.). We also fielded a couple of calls asking us to resend
our rather long list of questions, as they had lost our file at one
point, and some individual letters at another.
At this point we had a long talk about our goals, requirements,
capabilities, and resources, and realized several things almost
simultaneously:
1) Like the frog slowly boiled, we had been incrementally agreeing to
seemingly minor changes that, taken together, made our boat
enormously more complicated than the simple boat we had in mind back
in 2001.
2) The source of this complexity was Susanne, not Phil. In fact,
there was very little Phil Bolger in this design anymore, it was
clearly Susanne's work, and it met nearly none of the most important
original requirements we wrote down back in 2001. There was none of
the simple functionality that drew us to PB&F in the first place.
Still, we bore much of the blame for agreeing to many of these
complications.
3) We could not afford to build the boat as it was currently designed.
4) Even if we could afford it, working alone and part time it would
take me at least 10 years to complete, putting us both near or over
60 when we finally got to sail her.
5) The boat as designed would cost a lot of money to operate and
maintain once it was in the water.
6) The size of the boat and rig, and especially the complexity of the
rig, were more than Nancy could confidently singlehand. The double
sloop rig has six halyards, four sheets, and requires reefing at
least two of the four sails at a time (at least it looks that way -
we never got an answer to that question, either).
7) PB&F were once again working on other projects and not only our
commission. We could tell this from the fishing boat articles and
their comments to us. We had no confidence that they would ever
complete the design and we were worn out waiting for it.
8) Given all of the above, especially the cost and complexity issues,
we would have to scale back our goals to coastal and island cruising
rather than ocean crossing world cruising and require a design more
suited to that style of cruising.
With heavy heart after investing our money and seven and a half years
of our lives in the project, in October we wrote a one-page letter to
PB&F informing them of our decision to terminate the commission and
giving them most of the reasons described above. We asked if they
would help us identify an existing design that was much smaller,
simpler, less expensive, and less time-consuming to build. We
expected that they would either be very disappointed or elated to get
the project out of the way, but were hopeful that we could purchase
one of their existing designs.
What we got in response was obviously written by Susanne, and
consisted of five pages of 10-point dismay, anger, condecension, and
insult. It contained demonstrably wrong assertions about what we had
agreed to in the past. The most disturbing was that they (she?)
thought that we would "take the project seriously enough" to both
quit our jobs and build full time completely indoors as soon as we
got the plans. She even laid out a timetable for us to give notice.
She wrote that PB&F would have nothing to do with the project if it
was to be built part-time and outdoors, especially in Colorado.
There was also a paragraph listing several recent commissions for
large boats that never got built, or partially built, or the client
had changed their plans. At least one (thankfully unnamed) client
was ridiculed for deciding to do something different with his life.
We were devastated. We had clearly communicated to them in writing
that I would be working alone and outdoors way back in 2003. We even
bought land in 2003 and erected a small workshop in 2004 specifically
for this purpose - I had just sent them photos of the place back in
February. They had never mentioned these preconditions previously.
There were many other points of serious miscommunication or
disagreement in her letter. We supposed we would be added to the
paragraph of unfulfilled commissions in any similar letters to future
clients.
After some careful thought, we replied with another letter pointing
out where we disagreed, and noted our displeasure with some of the
comments. We once again asked that they help us identify a simpler
design. We told them we didn't want our association to end badly,
and preferably not end at all.
That was in early November of last year. We have not heard back, and
sadly, I doubt we will ever hear from them again, unless it is to be
excoriated in some future MAIB column.
#668 is a great design, clever at every turn and no doubt a perfect
home afloat for someone. We hope the design gets finished and
somebody builds it, but unfortunately it can't be us. At this point
we are still trying to determine what we're going to build.
Jon
I have not heard a word from PB&F about reviving work on Wandervogel.
I have not pressed them about it either.
Doug
I have not pressed them about it either.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
>
> Curious to know if those with outstanding commissions ( 1 is 7 years
> old?) are seeing any progress now that the big gov'mnt project is
> reported to be complete.
>
> Hope so.
>
> Don Schultz
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
> <jon@> wrote:
> >
> > > I think that has a lot to do with the waning number of posts. Over
> > the
> > > past three years, I have tried to retain Mr. Bolger for two or
> > three
> > > different small-boat projects (most recently to draw plans for the
> > > Garvey Daysailer a couple of weeks ago), and he has in each case
> > > written back and said he is not taking any new engagements.
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@> wrote:
> > I agree that some of the falloff in traffic is PB&F not producing
> > anything for the hobbyist/homebuilder/messabout in some time.
> > FastBrick and Becky Thatcher are the only two that come to mind in
> > the last five years, but the "Perfect Skiff 2008" might be finished
> > now........
>
Curious to know if those with outstanding commissions ( 1 is 7 years
old?) are seeing any progress now that the big gov'mnt project is
reported to be complete.
Hope so.
Don Schultz
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
old?) are seeing any progress now that the big gov'mnt project is
reported to be complete.
Hope so.
Don Schultz
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
>
> > I think that has a lot to do with the waning number of posts. Over
> the
> > past three years, I have tried to retain Mr. Bolger for two or
> three
> > different small-boat projects (most recently to draw plans for the
> > Garvey Daysailer a couple of weeks ago), and he has in each case
> > written back and said he is not taking any new engagements.
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@> wrote:
> I agree that some of the falloff in traffic is PB&F not producing
> anything for the hobbyist/homebuilder/messabout in some time.
> FastBrick and Becky Thatcher are the only two that come to mind in
> the last five years, but the "Perfect Skiff 2008" might be finished
> now........
>Hi Patrick,
> I'm in Chapel Hill. What sort of boat(s) do you have?
>
> Patrick
>
I've got a handful of plastic boats, just sold my 27' keelboat
to free up time and funds for smaller things. Really want to build
Tennessee or Idaho and cruise the Cape Fear River before the Corps pull
the locks down. Plenty of other suitable waters if I take too long.
I have the foils for Bolger's EEEK! sailing canoe finished (not a lot
of work) just waiting for a likely looking stack of 1/4" ply to land at
Lowes or HD.
I saw your Windsprint on your yahoo profile.
I remember seeing it at 2008 NC Governor's Cup (I race a Buccaneer 18).
I think I saw it years ago towed behind a Subaru near Glenn Lennox Gulf
too.
Justin
> He made a 200 mile trip out and back on theThat is better gas mileage than my car gets!
> Mississippi and only burned 12 Gal of gas.
Fritz Funk's sneakeasy
http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Sneakeasy/Sneakeasy.htm
was built in Alaska but he has it in Wisconsin now. He runs it with a 15 hp
shortshaft and when he is running it in shallow water he tilts the outboard up and
the opening between the ducktail's acts like a a tunnel drive. He has actually
pulled up next to a jon boat that was stuck and pulled people off because the Snea
http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Sneakeasy/Sneakeasy.htm
was built in Alaska but he has it in Wisconsin now. He runs it with a 15 hp
shortshaft and when he is running it in shallow water he tilts the outboard up and
the opening between the ducktail's acts like a a tunnel drive. He has actually
pulled up next to a jon boat that was stuck and pulled people off because the Snea
Fritz Funk's sneakeasy
http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Sneakeasy/Sneakeasy.htm
was built in Alaska but he has it in Wisconsin now. He runs it with a 15 hp
shortshaft and when he is running it in shallow water he tilts the outboard up and
the opening between the ducktail's acts like a a tunnel drive. He has actually
pulled up next to a jon boat that was stuck and pulled people off because the
Sneakeasy drew less than the Jon boat. He made a 200 mile trip out and back on the
Mississippi and only burned 12 Gal of gas. I think the boat you want is already
here.
HJ
http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Sneakeasy/Sneakeasy.htm
was built in Alaska but he has it in Wisconsin now. He runs it with a 15 hp
shortshaft and when he is running it in shallow water he tilts the outboard up and
the opening between the ducktail's acts like a a tunnel drive. He has actually
pulled up next to a jon boat that was stuck and pulled people off because the
Sneakeasy drew less than the Jon boat. He made a 200 mile trip out and back on the
Mississippi and only burned 12 Gal of gas. I think the boat you want is already
here.
HJ
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Michael Stratton <mind.sailor@...>wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat
>> design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world, but
>> will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the mindset that
>> caused the problems
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It would be good if Phil would design a new parsimonious tunnel-stern
> sportsfishing boat for 15 hp. max. The pleasure boat industry is really
> tanking these days. We noticed the decline this summer in northern
> Minnesota, a place where the simple fish boat with a 3 horse kicker used to
> be the rule. My neighbor in southern Minnesota has a johnboat with a 200+
> horse outboard jet drive to go catfishing. It costs him $4 per mile to run
> that thing.
>
> Why tunnel-stern? I was really impressed with Robb White's modified Atkin
> Rescue Minor. It'll float on spit and no worries about rocks and logs. I
> recently bought an old 10 horse Honda, so I plan to build Bolger's old Fish
> Hawk design for it. Bolger is the master of the minimal solution. His
> mid-life work has a puritanical sparseness to it that provides the most
> utility with the fewest curves. He is a living treasure.
>
> Fred Schumacher
>
> Non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups
> Links
>
>
>
>
It looks very similar to me.
Máximo.
Máximo.
> Isn't the Trover similar in concept to Diablo?
> Malcolm
The concept, too.
See
http://www.spc.int/Coastfish/Sections/Development/FDSPublications/FDS_DSFDReports/dsfd-NewCaledonia-79.pdf
There was a project in the 70's to help develop fisheries in the South
Pacific Islands with locally built boats. Many of the boats built were
the Bolger Sampan Express designs (look at the photo on page 10). The
Sampan Express boats were precursors of the diablo. Successful at the
time, but I believe the latest boats they're using are power catamarans.
See
http://www.spc.int/Coastfish/Sections/Development/FDSPublications/FDS_DSFDReports/dsfd-NewCaledonia-79.pdf
There was a project in the 70's to help develop fisheries in the South
Pacific Islands with locally built boats. Many of the boats built were
the Bolger Sampan Express designs (look at the photo on page 10). The
Sampan Express boats were precursors of the diablo. Successful at the
time, but I believe the latest boats they're using are power catamarans.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
>
> Probably not the concept, but the shapes of the underwater
> portions of the hulls are very similar.
>
> Sincerely,
> Ken Grome
> Bagacay Boatworks
> www.bagacayboatworks.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Isn't the Trover similar in concept to Diablo?
> > Malcolm
> >
> > pvanderwaart wrote:
> > > > John Welsford has already done it. Some have been
> > > > built. They were designed for islanders of the
> > > > pacific but would be just as good anywhere in the
> > > > world.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure what Welsford design you mean, but you
> > > might be referring to the boats that were built to help
> > > avoid famine in East Timor. I think the version of that
> > > boat meant for average folks is Trover.
> > >
> > >http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm
> > > <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm>
> > >
> > > JW has suggested extending the boat to longer lengths.
> > > Look in the archives of the jwbuilders yahoo group.
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
> > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1625 -
> > > Release Date: 8/21/2008 6:04 AM
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Probably not the concept, but the shapes of the underwater
portions of the hulls are very similar.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
portions of the hulls are very similar.
Sincerely,
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
> Isn't the Trover similar in concept to Diablo?
> Malcolm
>
> pvanderwaart wrote:
> > > John Welsford has already done it. Some have been
> > > built. They were designed for islanders of the
> > > pacific but would be just as good anywhere in the
> > > world.
> >
> > I'm not sure what Welsford design you mean, but you
> > might be referring to the boats that were built to help
> > avoid famine in East Timor. I think the version of that
> > boat meant for average folks is Trover.
> >
> >http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm
> > <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm>
> >
> > JW has suggested extending the boat to longer lengths.
> > Look in the archives of the jwbuilders yahoo group.
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1625 -
> > Release Date: 8/21/2008 6:04 AM
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Isn't the Trover similar in concept to Diablo?
Malcolm
pvanderwaart wrote:
Malcolm
pvanderwaart wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. They
> > were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good
> > anywhere in the world.
>
> I'm not sure what Welsford design you mean, but you might be referring
> to the boats that were built to help avoid famine in East Timor. I
> think the version of that boat meant for average folks is Trover.
>
>http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm
> <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm>
>
> JW has suggested extending the boat to longer lengths. Look in the
> archives of the jwbuilders yahoo group.
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1625 - Release Date: 8/21/2008 6:04 AM
>
Hi Group,
This be true, "It is pretty audacious to seek out to save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat design." Plus he & she are getting younger every day. Thanks, Mike
This be true, "It is pretty audacious to seek out to save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat design." Plus he & she are getting younger every day. Thanks, Mike
--- On Thu, 8/21/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
> From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 2:22 PM
> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM,
> adventures_in_astrophotography
> <jon@...> wrote:
>
>
> > I think many folks, including me,
> > were attracted by the purposeful but simple and
> elegant solutions of
> > much of Phil's earlier work.
>
> If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the
> 'golden era' in
> PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from
> the 1970's and
> 1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics
> like the Micro.
> What these all share in common is that they are distilled
> down to the
> minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
>
> To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had
> been designing
> boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the
> spectrum of
> designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
>
> Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a
> "boat",
> period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also
> admire the "thinking
> big" period in the last decade. It is pretty
> audacious to seek out to
> save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better
> boat
> design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people
> in the world
> can hope to achieve.
>
> Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard
> hobbyist lacks
> the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and
> snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
> MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups
> Links
>
>
>
Where would one find more info on PCBs fishing boat design? I kinda remember something was said about it here.
Blessings Krissie
Hi,
I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world, but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.
I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?
Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately, in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near future! :)
Mike S.
Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
_,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Blessings Krissie
Hi,
I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world, but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.
I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?
Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately, in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near future! :)
Mike S.
Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
_,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From the plans site at Duckworks is Clarence River Dory
The civilian version as he calls it
Hope this helps you out.
Carl West
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Stratton
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:14 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
I went to Welsford's web site and he does have some nice boats, but I didn't
see anything similar to what Bolger is advocating. Is there a design I'm
missing?
Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but many times, in the end,
you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
--- On Thu, 8/21/08, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@verizon.
<mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net> net> wrote:
From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@verizon. <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>
net>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
To: bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com
Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 11:54 AM
I think Bolger is already too late to design an efficent fishing boat
type. John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. They
were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good
anywhere in the world. I wish I could remeber the name of the boats but
I will go to his site and find it. Bolger may be behind the curve in
the low fuel consumption, cheap to build work boat, but there is pleanty
of room for his knd of inovation in either a new design or a piggyback
design beginning with Welsford designes.
As far as Bolgers designs are concerned I admire his early designes
much more than his instant boat stuff. I concider flat bottomed high
sided boats a step way backwards in boat design. I think them only
slightly easyier to build than v bottomed and flare sided boats that are
much better design as far as seaworthyness and comfort are concerned.
The looks of a slabsided square boat are extrememy ugly form and point
of view other than looking straight on to its side. The sterns are ugly
and from the bow as well.
The now popular flat bottomed boats have their least stability when
heeled over and sailing hard. At that point it is ve bottomed. A ve
bottom boat has most of it's hull stability when heald and the deadrise
is rideing flat on the water. These boats often need no ballast. The
square boat is likely to lay on it's side and stay there unless you put
ballast in them. Not the best in the world for a trailerable boat. A
water ballasted boat does not have any ballast until the water ballast
begins to lift out of the water.
I don't think anyone can arue much that these square boats are ugly
when Phil Bolger thinks so too. After all his argument for the saving
grace of their looks is that you don't get a tax deduction for
provideing beauty to your neighbors.
Don't misunderstand I think PB is and excellent designer in a class
with and he designed two boats for me which were excellent sailors
strong light and comfortable.
I think what he did in recent years was to take an infeerier style
of boat and design it to be usefull but still not a superor design and
the with good marketing sold the idea.
Bill Tripp sold out when he went to work for Columbia and I think
Bolger did the same in the 1980's buy going way too far with his instant
boat designs. One or two designes would have been enough of that kind
of thing and a return to finely shaped new designs would have made him
more memorable. His more recent designs are very forgetable while some
others have picked up on some of his earlier designs and made names for
themslves with those worked into other good designs and some
improvement to meet todays needs. Having said all this Bolger is still
among my favorites and there are plenty of them to think back on and
some that are current. Most have designed some great boats and some that
were not great and Bolger falls in right with them.
Doug
Michael Stratton wrote:
wrote:
lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978)
282-1349
- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_
<mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups
Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1624 - Release Date: 8/20/2008
7:11 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The civilian version as he calls it
Hope this helps you out.
Carl West
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Stratton
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:14 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
I went to Welsford's web site and he does have some nice boats, but I didn't
see anything similar to what Bolger is advocating. Is there a design I'm
missing?
Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but many times, in the end,
you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
--- On Thu, 8/21/08, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@verizon.
<mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net> net> wrote:
From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@verizon. <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>
net>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
To: bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com
Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 11:54 AM
I think Bolger is already too late to design an efficent fishing boat
type. John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. They
were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good
anywhere in the world. I wish I could remeber the name of the boats but
I will go to his site and find it. Bolger may be behind the curve in
the low fuel consumption, cheap to build work boat, but there is pleanty
of room for his knd of inovation in either a new design or a piggyback
design beginning with Welsford designes.
As far as Bolgers designs are concerned I admire his early designes
much more than his instant boat stuff. I concider flat bottomed high
sided boats a step way backwards in boat design. I think them only
slightly easyier to build than v bottomed and flare sided boats that are
much better design as far as seaworthyness and comfort are concerned.
The looks of a slabsided square boat are extrememy ugly form and point
of view other than looking straight on to its side. The sterns are ugly
and from the bow as well.
The now popular flat bottomed boats have their least stability when
heeled over and sailing hard. At that point it is ve bottomed. A ve
bottom boat has most of it's hull stability when heald and the deadrise
is rideing flat on the water. These boats often need no ballast. The
square boat is likely to lay on it's side and stay there unless you put
ballast in them. Not the best in the world for a trailerable boat. A
water ballasted boat does not have any ballast until the water ballast
begins to lift out of the water.
I don't think anyone can arue much that these square boats are ugly
when Phil Bolger thinks so too. After all his argument for the saving
grace of their looks is that you don't get a tax deduction for
provideing beauty to your neighbors.
Don't misunderstand I think PB is and excellent designer in a class
with and he designed two boats for me which were excellent sailors
strong light and comfortable.
I think what he did in recent years was to take an infeerier style
of boat and design it to be usefull but still not a superor design and
the with good marketing sold the idea.
Bill Tripp sold out when he went to work for Columbia and I think
Bolger did the same in the 1980's buy going way too far with his instant
boat designs. One or two designes would have been enough of that kind
of thing and a return to finely shaped new designs would have made him
more memorable. His more recent designs are very forgetable while some
others have picked up on some of his earlier designs and made names for
themslves with those worked into other good designs and some
improvement to meet todays needs. Having said all this Bolger is still
among my favorites and there are plenty of them to think back on and
some that are current. Most have designed some great boats and some that
were not great and Bolger falls in right with them.
Doug
Michael Stratton wrote:
><mailto:bruce%40hallman.org> org
> Hi,
>
> I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat
> design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world,
> but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the
> mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.
>
> I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It
> seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is
> anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is
> there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?
>
> Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm
> less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my
> projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately,
> in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near
> future! :)
>
> Mike S.
>
> Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the
> end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
>
> --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@hallman.
> <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> wrote:<mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>>
>
> From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@hallman. <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org> org
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> To: bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com
> Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 10:22 AM<mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com>>
>
> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography
> <jon@kolbsadventures <mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com> .com
wrote:
>and
> > I think many folks, including me,
> > were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of
> > much of Phil's earlier work.
>
> If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era' in
> PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's
> 1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro."boat",
> What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the
> minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
>
> To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing
> boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of
> designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
>
> Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a
> period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire theposts
> "thinking
> big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to
> save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
> design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world
> can hope to achieve.
>
> Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks
> the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
><mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978)
> 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_
lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!Groups
> Links------------------------------------
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978)
282-1349
- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_
<mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups
Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1624 - Release Date: 8/20/2008
7:11 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. TheyI'm not sure what Welsford design you mean, but you might be referring
> were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good
> anywhere in the world.
to the boats that were built to help avoid famine in East Timor. I
think the version of that boat meant for average folks is Trover.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm
JW has suggested extending the boat to longer lengths. Look in the
archives of the jwbuilders yahoo group.
Here is the link to the East Timor project
http://www.perfectsites.com/ABETQUEENSLAND/what.html
I recall it was also featured in a Duckworks article a few years ago.
http://www.perfectsites.com/ABETQUEENSLAND/what.html
I recall it was also featured in a Duckworks article a few years ago.
You probably are remembering the FAO fishing boat project
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/007/y5649e/y5649e00.pdf
That project is great, but is distinguished from the PB&F project, I
think, in that it is aimed at the ultra poor in the Third World.
The PB&F plan is aimed instead to resurrect the disaster that
overfishing and high fuel prices has wrought on the traditional
fisheries industry. Specifically in Gloucester, and similar
situtations.
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/007/y5649e/y5649e00.pdf
That project is great, but is distinguished from the PB&F project, I
think, in that it is aimed at the ultra poor in the Third World.
The PB&F plan is aimed instead to resurrect the disaster that
overfishing and high fuel prices has wrought on the traditional
fisheries industry. Specifically in Gloucester, and similar
situtations.
Micheal, google Welsford Fat CanoeBubbaP
To:bolger@yahoogroups.comFrom:dougpol1@...: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:45:31 -0400Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
Sorry Michal I can't find the site either. After a hard drive and motherboard failure and a switch to Linux I have lost track of my favorites. It was I think not on Wellsfords sight but on some kind of an anthropoligy site where they were trying to help native fishermen and as I remember Wellsford designed the boats for them.I don't have time to find it right now but will post it in the next day or so.They were low powerd either flat or shallow v bottomed nearly canoe like maybe sharpie related. Good looking boats that appeared to me very practical and easy to build.Sorry!DougMichael Stratton wrote:>> I went to Welsford's web site and he does have some nice boats, but I > didn't see anything similar to what Bolger is advocating. Is there a > design I'm missing?>> Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but many times, in the > end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.>> --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>> wrote:>> From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>> Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 11:54 AM>> I think Bolger is already too late to design an efficent fishing boat> type. John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. They> were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good> anywhere in the world. I wish I could remeber the name of the boats but> I will go to his site and find it. Bolger may be behind the curve in> the low fuel consumption, cheap to build work boat, but there is pleanty> of room for his knd of inovation in either a new design or a piggyback> design beginning with Welsford designes.> As far as Bolgers designs are concerned I admire his early designes> much more than his instant boat stuff. I concider flat bottomed high> sided boats a step way backwards in boat design. I think them only> slightly easyier to build than v bottomed and flare sided boats that are> much better design as far as seaworthyness and comfort are concerned.> The looks of a slabsided square boat are extrememy ugly form and point> of view other than looking straight on to its side. The sterns are ugly> and from the bow as well.> The now popular flat bottomed boats have their least stability when> heeled over and sailing hard. At that point it is ve bottomed. A ve> bottom boat has most of it's hull stability when heald and the deadrise> is rideing flat on the water. These boats often need no ballast. The> square boat is likely to lay on it's side and stay there unless you put> ballast in them. Not the best in the world for a trailerable boat. A> water ballasted boat does not have any ballast until the water ballast> begins to lift out of the water.> I don't think anyone can arue much that these square boats are ugly> when Phil Bolger thinks so too. After all his argument for the saving> grace of their looks is that you don't get a tax deduction for> provideing beauty to your neighbors.> Don't misunderstand I think PB is and excellent designer in a class> with and he designed two boats for me which were excellent sailors> strong light and comfortable.> I think what he did in recent years was to take an infeerier style> of boat and design it to be usefull but still not a superor design and> the with good marketing sold the idea.> Bill Tripp sold out when he went to work for Columbia and I think> Bolger did the same in the 1980's buy going way too far with his instant> boat designs. One or two designes would have been enough of that kind> of thing and a return to finely shaped new designs would have made him> more memorable. His more recent designs are very forgetable while some> others have picked up on some of his earlier designs and made names for> themslves with those worked into other good designs and some> improvement to meet todays needs. Having said all this Bolger is still> among my favorites and there are plenty of them to think back on and> some that are current. Most have designed some great boats and some that> were not great and Bolger falls in right with them.>> Doug>> Michael Stratton wrote:> >> > Hi,> >> > I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat> > design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world,> > but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the> > mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.> >> > I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It> > seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is> > anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is> > there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?> >> > Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm>> > less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my> > projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately,> > in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near> > future! :)> >> > Mike S.> >> > Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the> > end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.> >> > --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> > <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> wrote:> >> > From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...<mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>>> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>> > Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 10:22 AM> >> > On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography> > <jon@...<mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com> > <mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com>>> wrote:> >> > > I think many folks, including me,> > > were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of> > > much of Phil's earlier work.> >> > If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era' in> > PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's> and> > 1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.> > What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the> > minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.> >> > To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing> > boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of> > designs, for 56 years now, and still going.> >> > Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a> "boat",> > period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the> > "thinking> > big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to> > save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat> > design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world> > can hope to achieve.> >> > Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks> > the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.> >> > ------------------------------------> >> > Bolger rules!!!> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging> > dead horses> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'> posts> >> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,> > Fax: (978)> > 282-1349> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>> > <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>> > <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!> Groups> > Links> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> >>> ------------------------------------>> Bolger rules!!!> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging > dead horses> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, > Fax: (978)> 282-1349> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups> Links>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To:bolger@yahoogroups.comFrom:dougpol1@...: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:45:31 -0400Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
Sorry Michal I can't find the site either. After a hard drive and motherboard failure and a switch to Linux I have lost track of my favorites. It was I think not on Wellsfords sight but on some kind of an anthropoligy site where they were trying to help native fishermen and as I remember Wellsford designed the boats for them.I don't have time to find it right now but will post it in the next day or so.They were low powerd either flat or shallow v bottomed nearly canoe like maybe sharpie related. Good looking boats that appeared to me very practical and easy to build.Sorry!DougMichael Stratton wrote:>> I went to Welsford's web site and he does have some nice boats, but I > didn't see anything similar to what Bolger is advocating. Is there a > design I'm missing?>> Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but many times, in the > end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.>> --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>> wrote:>> From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>> Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 11:54 AM>> I think Bolger is already too late to design an efficent fishing boat> type. John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. They> were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good> anywhere in the world. I wish I could remeber the name of the boats but> I will go to his site and find it. Bolger may be behind the curve in> the low fuel consumption, cheap to build work boat, but there is pleanty> of room for his knd of inovation in either a new design or a piggyback> design beginning with Welsford designes.> As far as Bolgers designs are concerned I admire his early designes> much more than his instant boat stuff. I concider flat bottomed high> sided boats a step way backwards in boat design. I think them only> slightly easyier to build than v bottomed and flare sided boats that are> much better design as far as seaworthyness and comfort are concerned.> The looks of a slabsided square boat are extrememy ugly form and point> of view other than looking straight on to its side. The sterns are ugly> and from the bow as well.> The now popular flat bottomed boats have their least stability when> heeled over and sailing hard. At that point it is ve bottomed. A ve> bottom boat has most of it's hull stability when heald and the deadrise> is rideing flat on the water. These boats often need no ballast. The> square boat is likely to lay on it's side and stay there unless you put> ballast in them. Not the best in the world for a trailerable boat. A> water ballasted boat does not have any ballast until the water ballast> begins to lift out of the water.> I don't think anyone can arue much that these square boats are ugly> when Phil Bolger thinks so too. After all his argument for the saving> grace of their looks is that you don't get a tax deduction for> provideing beauty to your neighbors.> Don't misunderstand I think PB is and excellent designer in a class> with and he designed two boats for me which were excellent sailors> strong light and comfortable.> I think what he did in recent years was to take an infeerier style> of boat and design it to be usefull but still not a superor design and> the with good marketing sold the idea.> Bill Tripp sold out when he went to work for Columbia and I think> Bolger did the same in the 1980's buy going way too far with his instant> boat designs. One or two designes would have been enough of that kind> of thing and a return to finely shaped new designs would have made him> more memorable. His more recent designs are very forgetable while some> others have picked up on some of his earlier designs and made names for> themslves with those worked into other good designs and some> improvement to meet todays needs. Having said all this Bolger is still> among my favorites and there are plenty of them to think back on and> some that are current. Most have designed some great boats and some that> were not great and Bolger falls in right with them.>> Doug>> Michael Stratton wrote:> >> > Hi,> >> > I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat> > design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world,> > but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the> > mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.> >> > I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It> > seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is> > anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is> > there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?> >> > Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm>> > less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my> > projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately,> > in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near> > future! :)> >> > Mike S.> >> > Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the> > end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.> >> > --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> > <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> wrote:> >> > From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...<mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>>> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>> > Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 10:22 AM> >> > On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography> > <jon@...<mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com> > <mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com>>> wrote:> >> > > I think many folks, including me,> > > were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of> > > much of Phil's earlier work.> >> > If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era' in> > PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's> and> > 1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.> > What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the> > minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.> >> > To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing> > boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of> > designs, for 56 years now, and still going.> >> > Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a> "boat",> > period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the> > "thinking> > big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to> > save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat> > design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world> > can hope to achieve.> >> > Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks> > the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.> >> > ------------------------------------> >> > Bolger rules!!!> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging> > dead horses> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'> posts> >> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,> > Fax: (978)> > 282-1349> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>> > <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>> > <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!> Groups> > Links> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> >>> ------------------------------------>> Bolger rules!!!> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging > dead horses> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, > Fax: (978)> 282-1349> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups> Links>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>
_________________________________________________________________
See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Fat Canoe?http://www.electriclamb.org/AFP/pages/24.html
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry Michal I can't find the site either. After a hard drive and
> motherboard failure and a switch to Linux I have lost track of my
> favorites. It was I think not on Wellsfords sight but on some kind
of
> an anthropoligy site where they were trying to help native
fishermen
> and as I remember Wellsford designed the boats for them.
> I don't have time to find it right now but will post it in the
next
> day or so.
> They were low powerd either flat or shallow v bottomed nearly
canoe
> like maybe sharpie related. Good looking boats that appeared to me
very
> practical and easy to build.
> Sorry!
> Doug
>
>
>
> Michael Stratton wrote:
> >
> > I went to Welsford's web site and he does have some nice boats,
but I
> > didn't see anything similar to what Bolger is advocating. Is
there a
> > design I'm missing?
> >
> > Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but many times,
in the
> > end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
> >
> > --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...
> > <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>> wrote:
> >
> > From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...
> > <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>>
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 11:54 AM
> >
> > I think Bolger is already too late to design an efficent fishing
boat
> > type. John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built.
They
> > were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as
good
> > anywhere in the world. I wish I could remeber the name of the
boats but
> > I will go to his site and find it. Bolger may be behind the curve
in
> > the low fuel consumption, cheap to build work boat, but there is
pleanty
> > of room for his knd of inovation in either a new design or a
piggyback
> > design beginning with Welsford designes.
> > As far as Bolgers designs are concerned I admire his early
designes
> > much more than his instant boat stuff. I concider flat bottomed
high
> > sided boats a step way backwards in boat design. I think them only
> > slightly easyier to build than v bottomed and flare sided boats
that are
> > much better design as far as seaworthyness and comfort are
concerned.
> > The looks of a slabsided square boat are extrememy ugly form and
point
> > of view other than looking straight on to its side. The sterns
are ugly
> > and from the bow as well.
> > The now popular flat bottomed boats have their least stability
when
> > heeled over and sailing hard. At that point it is ve bottomed. A
ve
> > bottom boat has most of it's hull stability when heald and the
deadrise
> > is rideing flat on the water. These boats often need no ballast.
The
> > square boat is likely to lay on it's side and stay there unless
you put
> > ballast in them. Not the best in the world for a trailerable
boat. A
> > water ballasted boat does not have any ballast until the water
ballast
> > begins to lift out of the water.
> > I don't think anyone can arue much that these square boats are
ugly
> > when Phil Bolger thinks so too. After all his argument for the
saving
> > grace of their looks is that you don't get a tax deduction for
> > provideing beauty to your neighbors.
> > Don't misunderstand I think PB is and excellent designer in a
class
> > with and he designed two boats for me which were excellent sailors
> > strong light and comfortable.
> > I think what he did in recent years was to take an infeerier style
> > of boat and design it to be usefull but still not a superor
design and
> > the with good marketing sold the idea.
> > Bill Tripp sold out when he went to work for Columbia and I think
> > Bolger did the same in the 1980's buy going way too far with his
instant
> > boat designs. One or two designes would have been enough of that
kind
> > of thing and a return to finely shaped new designs would have
made him
> > more memorable. His more recent designs are very forgetable while
some
> > others have picked up on some of his earlier designs and made
names for
> > themslves with those worked into other good designs and some
> > improvement to meet todays needs. Having said all this Bolger is
still
> > among my favorites and there are plenty of them to think back on
and
> > some that are current. Most have designed some great boats and
some that
> > were not great and Bolger falls in right with them.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > Michael Stratton wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing
boat
> > > design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the
world,
> > > but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the
> > > mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.
> > >
> > > I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat
design. It
> > > seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is
> > > anything being done to raise the money needed for the
prototypes? Is
> > > there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?
> > >
> > > Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but
I'm
> >
> > > less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose
my
> > > projects a little more carefully now because of that.
Unfortunately,
> > > in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in
the near
> > > future! :)
> > >
> > > Mike S.
> > >
> > > Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times,
in the
> > > end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...
> > <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>
> > > <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@... <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>
> > <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>>
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 10:22 AM
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography
> > > <jon@... <mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com>
> > <mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com>>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think many folks, including me,
> > > > were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant
solutions of
> > > > much of Phil's earlier work.
> > >
> > > If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era'
in
> > > PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the
1970's
> > and
> > > 1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the
Micro.
> > > What these all share in common is that they are distilled down
to the
> > > minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
> > >
> > > To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been
designing
> > > boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum
of
> > > designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
> > >
> > > Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a
> > "boat",
> > > period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the
> > > "thinking
> > > big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek
out to
> > > save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
> > > design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the
world
> > > can hope to achieve.
> > >
> > > Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist
lacks
> > > the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
flogging
> > > dead horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred'
> > posts
> > >
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930,
> > > Fax: (978)
> > > 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!
> > Groups
> > > Links
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
flogging
> > dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> >
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930,
> > Fax: (978)
> > 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!
Groups
> > Links
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
Sorry Michal I can't find the site either. After a hard drive and
motherboard failure and a switch to Linux I have lost track of my
favorites. It was I think not on Wellsfords sight but on some kind of
an anthropoligy site where they were trying to help native fishermen
and as I remember Wellsford designed the boats for them.
I don't have time to find it right now but will post it in the next
day or so.
They were low powerd either flat or shallow v bottomed nearly canoe
like maybe sharpie related. Good looking boats that appeared to me very
practical and easy to build.
Sorry!
Doug
Michael Stratton wrote:
motherboard failure and a switch to Linux I have lost track of my
favorites. It was I think not on Wellsfords sight but on some kind of
an anthropoligy site where they were trying to help native fishermen
and as I remember Wellsford designed the boats for them.
I don't have time to find it right now but will post it in the next
day or so.
They were low powerd either flat or shallow v bottomed nearly canoe
like maybe sharpie related. Good looking boats that appeared to me very
practical and easy to build.
Sorry!
Doug
Michael Stratton wrote:
>
> I went to Welsford's web site and he does have some nice boats, but I
> didn't see anything similar to what Bolger is advocating. Is there a
> design I'm missing?
>
> Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but many times, in the
> end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
>
> --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...
> <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>> wrote:
>
> From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...
> <mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 11:54 AM
>
> I think Bolger is already too late to design an efficent fishing boat
> type. John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. They
> were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good
> anywhere in the world. I wish I could remeber the name of the boats but
> I will go to his site and find it. Bolger may be behind the curve in
> the low fuel consumption, cheap to build work boat, but there is pleanty
> of room for his knd of inovation in either a new design or a piggyback
> design beginning with Welsford designes.
> As far as Bolgers designs are concerned I admire his early designes
> much more than his instant boat stuff. I concider flat bottomed high
> sided boats a step way backwards in boat design. I think them only
> slightly easyier to build than v bottomed and flare sided boats that are
> much better design as far as seaworthyness and comfort are concerned.
> The looks of a slabsided square boat are extrememy ugly form and point
> of view other than looking straight on to its side. The sterns are ugly
> and from the bow as well.
> The now popular flat bottomed boats have their least stability when
> heeled over and sailing hard. At that point it is ve bottomed. A ve
> bottom boat has most of it's hull stability when heald and the deadrise
> is rideing flat on the water. These boats often need no ballast. The
> square boat is likely to lay on it's side and stay there unless you put
> ballast in them. Not the best in the world for a trailerable boat. A
> water ballasted boat does not have any ballast until the water ballast
> begins to lift out of the water.
> I don't think anyone can arue much that these square boats are ugly
> when Phil Bolger thinks so too. After all his argument for the saving
> grace of their looks is that you don't get a tax deduction for
> provideing beauty to your neighbors.
> Don't misunderstand I think PB is and excellent designer in a class
> with and he designed two boats for me which were excellent sailors
> strong light and comfortable.
> I think what he did in recent years was to take an infeerier style
> of boat and design it to be usefull but still not a superor design and
> the with good marketing sold the idea.
> Bill Tripp sold out when he went to work for Columbia and I think
> Bolger did the same in the 1980's buy going way too far with his instant
> boat designs. One or two designes would have been enough of that kind
> of thing and a return to finely shaped new designs would have made him
> more memorable. His more recent designs are very forgetable while some
> others have picked up on some of his earlier designs and made names for
> themslves with those worked into other good designs and some
> improvement to meet todays needs. Having said all this Bolger is still
> among my favorites and there are plenty of them to think back on and
> some that are current. Most have designed some great boats and some that
> were not great and Bolger falls in right with them.
>
> Doug
>
> Michael Stratton wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat
> > design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world,
> > but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the
> > mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.
> >
> > I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It
> > seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is
> > anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is
> > there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?
> >
> > Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm
>
> > less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my
> > projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately,
> > in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near
> > future! :)
> >
> > Mike S.
> >
> > Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the
> > end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
> >
> > --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...
> <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>
> > <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> wrote:
> >
> > From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...<mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>
> <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>>
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 10:22 AM
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography
> > <jon@...<mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com>
> <mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I think many folks, including me,
> > > were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of
> > > much of Phil's earlier work.
> >
> > If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era' in
> > PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's
> and
> > 1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.
> > What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the
> > minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
> >
> > To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing
> > boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of
> > designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
> >
> > Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a
> "boat",
> > period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the
> > "thinking
> > big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to
> > save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
> > design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world
> > can hope to achieve.
> >
> > Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks
> > the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> > dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> >
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978)
> > 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!
> Groups
> > Links
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978)
> 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups
> Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
I went to Welsford's web site and he does have some nice boats, but I didn't see anything similar to what Bolger is advocating. Is there a design I'm missing?
Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but many times, in the end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but many times, in the end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
--- On Thu, 8/21/08, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 11:54 AM
I think Bolger is already too late to design an efficent fishing boat
type. John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. They
were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good
anywhere in the world. I wish I could remeber the name of the boats but
I will go to his site and find it. Bolger may be behind the curve in
the low fuel consumption, cheap to build work boat, but there is pleanty
of room for his knd of inovation in either a new design or a piggyback
design beginning with Welsford designes.
As far as Bolgers designs are concerned I admire his early designes
much more than his instant boat stuff. I concider flat bottomed high
sided boats a step way backwards in boat design. I think them only
slightly easyier to build than v bottomed and flare sided boats that are
much better design as far as seaworthyness and comfort are concerned.
The looks of a slabsided square boat are extrememy ugly form and point
of view other than looking straight on to its side. The sterns are ugly
and from the bow as well.
The now popular flat bottomed boats have their least stability when
heeled over and sailing hard. At that point it is ve bottomed. A ve
bottom boat has most of it's hull stability when heald and the deadrise
is rideing flat on the water. These boats often need no ballast. The
square boat is likely to lay on it's side and stay there unless you put
ballast in them. Not the best in the world for a trailerable boat. A
water ballasted boat does not have any ballast until the water ballast
begins to lift out of the water.
I don't think anyone can arue much that these square boats are ugly
when Phil Bolger thinks so too. After all his argument for the saving
grace of their looks is that you don't get a tax deduction for
provideing beauty to your neighbors.
Don't misunderstand I think PB is and excellent designer in a class
with and he designed two boats for me which were excellent sailors
strong light and comfortable.
I think what he did in recent years was to take an infeerier style
of boat and design it to be usefull but still not a superor design and
the with good marketing sold the idea.
Bill Tripp sold out when he went to work for Columbia and I think
Bolger did the same in the 1980's buy going way too far with his instant
boat designs. One or two designes would have been enough of that kind
of thing and a return to finely shaped new designs would have made him
more memorable. His more recent designs are very forgetable while some
others have picked up on some of his earlier designs and made names for
themslves with those worked into other good designs and some
improvement to meet todays needs. Having said all this Bolger is still
among my favorites and there are plenty of them to think back on and
some that are current. Most have designed some great boats and some that
were not great and Bolger falls in right with them.
Doug
Michael Stratton wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat
> design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world,
> but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the
> mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.
>
> I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It
> seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is
> anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is
> there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?
>
> Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm
> less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my
> projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately,
> in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near
> future! :)
>
> Mike S.
>
> Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the
> end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
>
> --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...
> <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> wrote:
>
> From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...
<mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 10:22 AM
>
> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography
> <jon@...<mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com>>
wrote:
>
> > I think many folks, including me,
> > were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of
> > much of Phil's earlier work.
>
> If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era' in
> PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's
and
> 1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.
> What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the
> minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
>
> To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing
> boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of
> designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
>
> Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a
"boat",
> period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the
> "thinking
> big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to
> save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
> design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world
> can hope to achieve.
>
> Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks
> the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
>
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978)
> 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!
Groups
> Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
------------------------------------
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups
Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think Bolger is already too late to design an efficent fishing boat
type. John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. They
were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good
anywhere in the world. I wish I could remeber the name of the boats but
I will go to his site and find it. Bolger may be behind the curve in
the low fuel consumption, cheap to build work boat, but there is pleanty
of room for his knd of inovation in either a new design or a piggyback
design beginning with Welsford designes.
As far as Bolgers designs are concerned I admire his early designes
much more than his instant boat stuff. I concider flat bottomed high
sided boats a step way backwards in boat design. I think them only
slightly easyier to build than v bottomed and flare sided boats that are
much better design as far as seaworthyness and comfort are concerned.
The looks of a slabsided square boat are extrememy ugly form and point
of view other than looking straight on to its side. The sterns are ugly
and from the bow as well.
The now popular flat bottomed boats have their least stability when
heeled over and sailing hard. At that point it is ve bottomed. A ve
bottom boat has most of it's hull stability when heald and the deadrise
is rideing flat on the water. These boats often need no ballast. The
square boat is likely to lay on it's side and stay there unless you put
ballast in them. Not the best in the world for a trailerable boat. A
water ballasted boat does not have any ballast until the water ballast
begins to lift out of the water.
I don't think anyone can arue much that these square boats are ugly
when Phil Bolger thinks so too. After all his argument for the saving
grace of their looks is that you don't get a tax deduction for
provideing beauty to your neighbors.
Don't misunderstand I think PB is and excellent designer in a class
with and he designed two boats for me which were excellent sailors
strong light and comfortable.
I think what he did in recent years was to take an infeerier style
of boat and design it to be usefull but still not a superor design and
the with good marketing sold the idea.
Bill Tripp sold out when he went to work for Columbia and I think
Bolger did the same in the 1980's buy going way too far with his instant
boat designs. One or two designes would have been enough of that kind
of thing and a return to finely shaped new designs would have made him
more memorable. His more recent designs are very forgetable while some
others have picked up on some of his earlier designs and made names for
themslves with those worked into other good designs and some
improvement to meet todays needs. Having said all this Bolger is still
among my favorites and there are plenty of them to think back on and
some that are current. Most have designed some great boats and some that
were not great and Bolger falls in right with them.
Doug
Michael Stratton wrote:
type. John Welsford has already done it. Some have been built. They
were designed for islanders of the pacific but would be just as good
anywhere in the world. I wish I could remeber the name of the boats but
I will go to his site and find it. Bolger may be behind the curve in
the low fuel consumption, cheap to build work boat, but there is pleanty
of room for his knd of inovation in either a new design or a piggyback
design beginning with Welsford designes.
As far as Bolgers designs are concerned I admire his early designes
much more than his instant boat stuff. I concider flat bottomed high
sided boats a step way backwards in boat design. I think them only
slightly easyier to build than v bottomed and flare sided boats that are
much better design as far as seaworthyness and comfort are concerned.
The looks of a slabsided square boat are extrememy ugly form and point
of view other than looking straight on to its side. The sterns are ugly
and from the bow as well.
The now popular flat bottomed boats have their least stability when
heeled over and sailing hard. At that point it is ve bottomed. A ve
bottom boat has most of it's hull stability when heald and the deadrise
is rideing flat on the water. These boats often need no ballast. The
square boat is likely to lay on it's side and stay there unless you put
ballast in them. Not the best in the world for a trailerable boat. A
water ballasted boat does not have any ballast until the water ballast
begins to lift out of the water.
I don't think anyone can arue much that these square boats are ugly
when Phil Bolger thinks so too. After all his argument for the saving
grace of their looks is that you don't get a tax deduction for
provideing beauty to your neighbors.
Don't misunderstand I think PB is and excellent designer in a class
with and he designed two boats for me which were excellent sailors
strong light and comfortable.
I think what he did in recent years was to take an infeerier style
of boat and design it to be usefull but still not a superor design and
the with good marketing sold the idea.
Bill Tripp sold out when he went to work for Columbia and I think
Bolger did the same in the 1980's buy going way too far with his instant
boat designs. One or two designes would have been enough of that kind
of thing and a return to finely shaped new designs would have made him
more memorable. His more recent designs are very forgetable while some
others have picked up on some of his earlier designs and made names for
themslves with those worked into other good designs and some
improvement to meet todays needs. Having said all this Bolger is still
among my favorites and there are plenty of them to think back on and
some that are current. Most have designed some great boats and some that
were not great and Bolger falls in right with them.
Doug
Michael Stratton wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat
> design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world,
> but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the
> mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.
>
> I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It
> seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is
> anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is
> there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?
>
> Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm
> less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my
> projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately,
> in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near
> future! :)
>
> Mike S.
>
> Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the
> end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
>
> --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...
> <mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>> wrote:
>
> From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...<mailto:bruce%40hallman.org>>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 10:22 AM
>
> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography
> <jon@...<mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com>> wrote:
>
> > I think many folks, including me,
> > were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of
> > much of Phil's earlier work.
>
> If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era' in
> PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's and
> 1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.
> What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the
> minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
>
> To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing
> boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of
> designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
>
> Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a "boat",
> period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the
> "thinking
> big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to
> save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
> design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world
> can hope to achieve.
>
> Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks
> the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978)
> 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups
> Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Michael Stratton <mind.sailor@...>wrote:
sportsfishing boat for 15 hp. max. The pleasure boat industry is really
tanking these days. We noticed the decline this summer in northern
Minnesota, a place where the simple fish boat with a 3 horse kicker used to
be the rule. My neighbor in southern Minnesota has a johnboat with a 200+
horse outboard jet drive to go catfishing. It costs him $4 per mile to run
that thing.
Why tunnel-stern? I was really impressed with Robb White's modified Atkin
Rescue Minor. It'll float on spit and no worries about rocks and logs. I
recently bought an old 10 horse Honda, so I plan to build Bolger's old Fish
Hawk design for it. Bolger is the master of the minimal solution. His
mid-life work has a puritanical sparseness to it that provides the most
utility with the fewest curves. He is a living treasure.
Fred Schumacher
Non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Hi,It would be good if Phil would design a new parsimonious tunnel-stern
>
> I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat
> design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world, but
> will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the mindset that
> caused the problems
>
sportsfishing boat for 15 hp. max. The pleasure boat industry is really
tanking these days. We noticed the decline this summer in northern
Minnesota, a place where the simple fish boat with a 3 horse kicker used to
be the rule. My neighbor in southern Minnesota has a johnboat with a 200+
horse outboard jet drive to go catfishing. It costs him $4 per mile to run
that thing.
Why tunnel-stern? I was really impressed with Robb White's modified Atkin
Rescue Minor. It'll float on spit and no worries about rocks and logs. I
recently bought an old 10 horse Honda, so I plan to build Bolger's old Fish
Hawk design for it. Bolger is the master of the minimal solution. His
mid-life work has a puritanical sparseness to it that provides the most
utility with the fewest curves. He is a living treasure.
Fred Schumacher
Non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi,
I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world, but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.
I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?
Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately, in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near future! :)
Mike S.
Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
I have to agree with Bruce. If PCB is successful in his fishing boat design, not only will he be helping many people throughout the world, but will also be responsible, at least in part, for changing the mindset that caused the problems "we" are experiencing now.
I read PCB's article in MAIB concerning his fishing boat design. It seemed the main obstacle was money to build the prototypes. Is anything being done to raise the money needed for the prototypes? Is there a fund, or Non-profit out there trying to accomplish this?
Plus, Mr. Bolger is 80. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm less productive now (at 57) than I was at 37. I tend to choose my projects a little more carefully now because of that. Unfortunately, in my case, I don't see that aging trend reversing itself in the near future! :)
Mike S.
Life is like sailing -- you can steer a course, but some times, in the end, you have to go where the strongest wind takes you.
--- On Thu, 8/21/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 10:22 AM
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography
<jon@...> wrote:
> I think many folks, including me,
> were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of
> much of Phil's earlier work.
If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era' in
PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's and
1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.
What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the
minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing
boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of
designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a "boat",
period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the
"thinking
big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to
save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world
can hope to achieve.
Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks
the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
------------------------------------
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups
Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If Phil can achieve the shift in thinking that allows a trend towards
economical craft for fishing it will be his greatest legacy. If that can be
combined with a sustainable fishery model based on his scenarios for use he
may well be the man of the century. That is assuming that feeding billions
is viewed as a good thing since humans tend to breed without regard for the
carrying capacity of the globe and that creates billions more to feed.
Caloosarat
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Bruce Hallman
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:22 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography
<jon@kolbsadventures <mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com> .com> wrote:
PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's and
1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.
What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the
minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing
boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of
designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a "boat",
period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the "thinking
big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to
save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world
can hope to achieve.
Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks
the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
economical craft for fishing it will be his greatest legacy. If that can be
combined with a sustainable fishery model based on his scenarios for use he
may well be the man of the century. That is assuming that feeding billions
is viewed as a good thing since humans tend to breed without regard for the
carrying capacity of the globe and that creates billions more to feed.
Caloosarat
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Bruce Hallman
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:22 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger list traffic?
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography
<jon@kolbsadventures <mailto:jon%40kolbsadventures.com> .com> wrote:
> I think many folks, including me,If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era' in
> were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of
> much of Phil's earlier work.
PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's and
1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.
What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the
minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing
boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of
designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a "boat",
period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the "thinking
big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to
save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world
can hope to achieve.
Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks
the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography
<jon@...> wrote:
PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's and
1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.
What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the
minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing
boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of
designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a "boat",
period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the "thinking
big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to
save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world
can hope to achieve.
Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks
the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
<jon@...> wrote:
> I think many folks, including me,If I can parse this some more, I suspect that the 'golden era' in
> were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of
> much of Phil's earlier work.
PCB's design opus you mention is the spare period from the 1970's and
1980's, including the Instantboats and other classics like the Micro.
What these all share in common is that they are distilled down to the
minimum, just the necessary essence, of 'boat'.
To be fair, this is not the earlier work of PCB, he had been designing
boats for 20 plus years by then. It is remarkable the spectrum of
designs, for 56 years now, and still going.
Personally, I like the spare, simple, essense of what is a "boat",
period from the 70's and 80's. That said, I also admire the "thinking
big" period in the last decade. It is pretty audacious to seek out to
save the Worlds failed fisheries industry through a better boat
design. That is an immensely grand goal that few people in the world
can hope to achieve.
Designing yet another recreational boat for a backyard hobbyist lacks
the nobility of trying to feed a few billion hungry people.
> I think that has a lot to do with the waning number of posts. Overthe
> past three years, I have tried to retain Mr. Bolger for two orthree
> different small-boat projects (most recently to draw plans for themany/any
> Garvey Daysailer a couple of weeks ago), and he has in each case
> written back and said he is not taking any new engagements.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@> wrote:
> >
> > > Has some of the traffic gone somewhere else?
> > > I know about yahoo Bolger lists 2 through 6, etc.
> > > Is there another forum or bb somewhere else on the net?
> >
> > Don't know, but my guess is that Mr. Bolger has not produced
> > new designs in the small/home buildable range to keep interest up.Part of the reason they won't take any new commissions is that they
have a backlog going back quite a few years, over seven in my case.
The various reasons for this have been published in MAIB in the past.
I agree that some of the falloff in traffic is PB&F not producing
anything for the hobbyist/homebuilder/messabout in some time.
FastBrick and Becky Thatcher are the only two that come to mind in
the last five years, but the "Perfect Skiff 2008" might be finished
now. There could be others I'm forgetting.
In my personal opinion, the transition of most of the work from Phil
to Susanne has also changed the overall nature of most of the designs
to more complex and expensive. I think many folks, including me,
were attracted by the purposeful but simple and elegant solutions of
much of Phil's earlier work. The more recent designs tend to be much
more complicated and perhaps less interesting to some people.
Perfect Skiff 2008, for example, started with two centerboards and
three rudders (needed to sail the two halves separately or combined),
eight spars, four halyards, and so on.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@...> wrote:
BTW would a LM Navigator be Empress then? And what would the 55footer
be?
Graeme
> We just need more debate about the Long Micro.Ah, but Bill, what's to debate when she's Queen of the fleet! ;-)
BTW would a LM Navigator be Empress then? And what would the 55footer
be?
Graeme
Justin:
I'm in Chapel Hill. What sort of boat(s) do you have?
Patrick
Justin M wrote:
I'm in Chapel Hill. What sort of boat(s) do you have?
Patrick
Justin M wrote:
> After turning emails off a few years ago due to extreme volume of
> Bolger list emails, I recently turned on the digest version.
> The post count is way down but there are twice as many members now.
>
> Has some of the traffic gone somewhere else?
> I know about yahoo Bolger lists 2 through 6, etc.
> Is there another forum or bb somewhere else on the net?
>
> Justin
> Durham, NC
>
Justin,
Most of the old timers (defined as active participants when I joined
in 2003) are still here, they just don't post often. Some long time
members are active on other forums (Lenihan and others post on the
wooden boat forums). Nels is no longer active on this group but still
posts on the microcruising yahoo list. Some of the other web-based
forums (using V-bulletin) facilitate posting pictures and that's
attractive. But some of those bulletins (e.g., the instant boats forum
on the web (not yahoo)) has fairly low post counts.
A while back one of the list members proposed breaking off and forming
an "instant boats" yahoo forum. I think they formed the group but I
haven't looked.
Generally, if the question doesn't concern a Long Micro, Gypsy, or
something specific I own, built, or have experienced, I don't
participate much (although I read all the posts). Some posts address
bi-weekly questions (the best epoxy, wood, paint) and I find these to
be too subjective to jump into. But I'm here and standing by to offer
advice or answer questions. We just need more debate about the Long
Micro.
Bill in Ohio
Long Micro Pugnacious
Most of the old timers (defined as active participants when I joined
in 2003) are still here, they just don't post often. Some long time
members are active on other forums (Lenihan and others post on the
wooden boat forums). Nels is no longer active on this group but still
posts on the microcruising yahoo list. Some of the other web-based
forums (using V-bulletin) facilitate posting pictures and that's
attractive. But some of those bulletins (e.g., the instant boats forum
on the web (not yahoo)) has fairly low post counts.
A while back one of the list members proposed breaking off and forming
an "instant boats" yahoo forum. I think they formed the group but I
haven't looked.
Generally, if the question doesn't concern a Long Micro, Gypsy, or
something specific I own, built, or have experienced, I don't
participate much (although I read all the posts). Some posts address
bi-weekly questions (the best epoxy, wood, paint) and I find these to
be too subjective to jump into. But I'm here and standing by to offer
advice or answer questions. We just need more debate about the Long
Micro.
Bill in Ohio
Long Micro Pugnacious
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Justin M" <jmeddock@...> wrote:
>
>
> After turning emails off a few years ago due to extreme volume of
> Bolger list emails, I recently turned on the digest version.
> The post count is way down but there are twice as many members now.
>
> Has some of the traffic gone somewhere else?
> I know about yahoo Bolger lists 2 through 6, etc.
> Is there another forum or bb somewhere else on the net?
>
> Justin
> Durham, NC
>
I think that has a lot to do with the waning number of posts. Over the
past three years, I have tried to retain Mr. Bolger for two or three
different small-boat projects (most recently to draw plans for the
Garvey Daysailer a couple of weeks ago), and he has in each case
written back and said he is not taking any new engagements.
past three years, I have tried to retain Mr. Bolger for two or three
different small-boat projects (most recently to draw plans for the
Garvey Daysailer a couple of weeks ago), and he has in each case
written back and said he is not taking any new engagements.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> > Has some of the traffic gone somewhere else?
> > I know about yahoo Bolger lists 2 through 6, etc.
> > Is there another forum or bb somewhere else on the net?
>
> Don't know, but my guess is that Mr. Bolger has not produced many/any
> new designs in the small/home buildable range to keep interest up.
>
> Has some of the traffic gone somewhere else?Don't know, but my guess is that Mr. Bolger has not produced many/any
> I know about yahoo Bolger lists 2 through 6, etc.
> Is there another forum or bb somewhere else on the net?
new designs in the small/home buildable range to keep interest up.
After turning emails off a few years ago due to extreme volume of
Bolger list emails, I recently turned on the digest version.
The post count is way down but there are twice as many members now.
Has some of the traffic gone somewhere else?
I know about yahoo Bolger lists 2 through 6, etc.
Is there another forum or bb somewhere else on the net?
Justin
Durham, NC
Bolger list emails, I recently turned on the digest version.
The post count is way down but there are twice as many members now.
Has some of the traffic gone somewhere else?
I know about yahoo Bolger lists 2 through 6, etc.
Is there another forum or bb somewhere else on the net?
Justin
Durham, NC