Re: Badger, sailing dories, Bolger priorities, etc.
> So if you are interested in performance, racing and off shoreI think its pretty instructive that in multihulls, where the problem
> passages go deep keel. If you want to cruise along the coast, any
> coast, keels suck. I cannot conceive of 6-7ft draft and doing
> what I like to do.
of getting ballast as low as possible doesn't arise, the
centerboard/daggerboard boats greatly outnumber the ones with fixed
fins. If all cost constraints were lifted, I would certainly sail a
multihull.
Peter
I have lived in the Northwest for quite a while. When I was going
to collage in Olympia, WA I owned a 26' 1936 Jenson designed
sloop of about 4' draft. With the type of cruising that I do,
where the bottom was occupied my mind a lot. I would push in
until I hit bottom with the oar and then back off a little
depending on what the tide was doing. On two different occasions
I got to spend some time on shore with the dinghy while waiting
for the tide to come in, hoping the boat would lift before the
water came over the cockpit combing (sp doubtful) into the non
self bailing cockpit. I have have had similar concerns here in
AK. I like to go way up the inlets and get the dinghies out and
see the country. I am down to 3.5 ft now, but still very
concerned about draft (Dakota, Wyoming dreaming big time).
I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Perry as a designer. His
boats are superb off shore with a great safety record as fast
passage makers. I have done a couple of weeks on a Valiant 40 and
it was very nice. From coastline to coastline, a great way to go,
speed, comfort and style.
So if you are interested in performance, racing and off shore
passages go deep keel. If you want to cruise along the coast, any
coast, keels suck. I cannot conceive of 6-7ft draft and doing
what I like to do.
HJ
Buyers seem to have accepted deep draft as the price of
to collage in Olympia, WA I owned a 26' 1936 Jenson designed
sloop of about 4' draft. With the type of cruising that I do,
where the bottom was occupied my mind a lot. I would push in
until I hit bottom with the oar and then back off a little
depending on what the tide was doing. On two different occasions
I got to spend some time on shore with the dinghy while waiting
for the tide to come in, hoping the boat would lift before the
water came over the cockpit combing (sp doubtful) into the non
self bailing cockpit. I have have had similar concerns here in
AK. I like to go way up the inlets and get the dinghies out and
see the country. I am down to 3.5 ft now, but still very
concerned about draft (Dakota, Wyoming dreaming big time).
I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Perry as a designer. His
boats are superb off shore with a great safety record as fast
passage makers. I have done a couple of weeks on a Valiant 40 and
it was very nice. From coastline to coastline, a great way to go,
speed, comfort and style.
So if you are interested in performance, racing and off shore
passages go deep keel. If you want to cruise along the coast, any
coast, keels suck. I cannot conceive of 6-7ft draft and doing
what I like to do.
HJ
Buyers seem to have accepted deep draft as the price of
> performance, and there is no sign of a mass defection to% Harrywelshman@...
> centerboard/leeboard boats. Or if there is, it is restricted to multi-
> hull sailors. To pick out one designer on the other side of the
> fence, Robert Perry has several times suggested in his review column
> in Sailing that some designer has limited the performance of a design
> by keeping the draft to "only" 5' or 6' or whatever.
>
> Mr. Bolger sails in a shallow bay in Massachusetts and Mr. Perry
> sails in the deep waters of the Northwest....
>
> So I presume that Mr. Bolger finds Badger too deep, Mr. Perry finds
> Badger too shoal, and Mr. Benford takes pride in a design that has
> taken its crew safely across oceans.
>
> Peter
Being a big Badger fan, I knew I'd seen more mention somewhere back
there.... I went back to read your post again, and found it's #1427, in
reply to 1418, for others as interested in all this thread as I am. I am
still trying to decide what boat I will build, Badger naturally having been
the first candidate after reading Annie's book; since then I've been
attracted by the larger Bolger boxes - jury's still out as I work to build
up the cash reserves to start the project, whatever it winds up being. I had
recently seen something, somewhere, about the Hills building a new boat and
selling Badger. You appear to be rather knowledgeable about their exploits,
so can you provide more info? I'd be curious what their new boat is like,
given the many, many miles they put under Badger and what they've learned.
Every boat is a compromise, the Hills are obviously intelligent people and
Badger seemed like a very good compromise for what they wanted to do; if
they have come up with a better compromise based on their experience, I'd
like to know more about it!
Paul
paul@...
there.... I went back to read your post again, and found it's #1427, in
reply to 1418, for others as interested in all this thread as I am. I am
still trying to decide what boat I will build, Badger naturally having been
the first candidate after reading Annie's book; since then I've been
attracted by the larger Bolger boxes - jury's still out as I work to build
up the cash reserves to start the project, whatever it winds up being. I had
recently seen something, somewhere, about the Hills building a new boat and
selling Badger. You appear to be rather knowledgeable about their exploits,
so can you provide more info? I'd be curious what their new boat is like,
given the many, many miles they put under Badger and what they've learned.
Every boat is a compromise, the Hills are obviously intelligent people and
Badger seemed like a very good compromise for what they wanted to do; if
they have come up with a better compromise based on their experience, I'd
like to know more about it!
Paul
paul@...
Gordon - What is the source of your information about the Badger?
Particularly your comment that the boat was designed as a shoal draft
vessel that didn't sail worth 'squat'? The boat was never designed as
a shoal draft vessel.
===
And Badger is *not* a "sailing dory". It does have a "dorylike" hull
shape; after all, there are only so many hull shapes with flat bottoms.
If you want to see a DORY, go to Mystic Seaport. The dories there are
NOT Gloucester Light Dories.
Particularly your comment that the boat was designed as a shoal draft
vessel that didn't sail worth 'squat'? The boat was never designed as
a shoal draft vessel.
===
And Badger is *not* a "sailing dory". It does have a "dorylike" hull
shape; after all, there are only so many hull shapes with flat bottoms.
If you want to see a DORY, go to Mystic Seaport. The dories there are
NOT Gloucester Light Dories.
Gordon - What is the source of your information about the Badger?
Particularly your comment that the boat was designed as a shoal draft
vessel that didn't sail worth 'squat'? The boat was never designed as
a
shoal draft vessel. It is true that it doesn't go to windward as well
as some vessels, though about as well as most gaffers of similar
size.
I have sailed aboard Badger with Pete and Annie. I would say that
Badger is very well built and as well, suited to the type of sailing
the Hills intended for her; fast...no, weatherly ... better than
some,
not as good as others, seaworthy ...very. I have said many times that
I
am of the impression that the capabilities of most sailing vessels
exceeds that of their skippers. the Hills are rare exceptions.
Nonetheless, I think they would tell you that they were generaly
satisfied with the sailing characteristics of Badger.
Bob Weiss makes a good point and states it well ... Badger has indeed
'walked the walk...' Lest there be any question, check my post #1418
which includes a very brief tally of the sailing the Hills did with
Badger in the period just before they sold her.
Bob, I wish I had your gift for articulation.
All the best, Bennett Scheuer
Particularly your comment that the boat was designed as a shoal draft
vessel that didn't sail worth 'squat'? The boat was never designed as
a
shoal draft vessel. It is true that it doesn't go to windward as well
as some vessels, though about as well as most gaffers of similar
size.
I have sailed aboard Badger with Pete and Annie. I would say that
Badger is very well built and as well, suited to the type of sailing
the Hills intended for her; fast...no, weatherly ... better than
some,
not as good as others, seaworthy ...very. I have said many times that
I
am of the impression that the capabilities of most sailing vessels
exceeds that of their skippers. the Hills are rare exceptions.
Nonetheless, I think they would tell you that they were generaly
satisfied with the sailing characteristics of Badger.
Bob Weiss makes a good point and states it well ... Badger has indeed
'walked the walk...' Lest there be any question, check my post #1418
which includes a very brief tally of the sailing the Hills did with
Badger in the period just before they sold her.
Bob, I wish I had your gift for articulation.
All the best, Bennett Scheuer
One thing that should be kept in mind when discussing the merits of a boat
such as "Badger" is that the design has walked the walk ( so to speak) and
just like the AS29 and Loose Moose designs actually does the job. Its very
hard to argue with sea miles.
All sailing vessels are the stuff of compromise and to belittle someones
design, choice of vessel and home is most likely shows ones own lack of
experience.
If I had a penny for every time I heard how Loose Moose was not a proper
vessel or how it scandilized the anchorage I would be a rich man...If I had
waited for the perfect boat/keel/rig combination I would still be sitting in
France....so it goes.
Bob Wise
St Thomas USVI
such as "Badger" is that the design has walked the walk ( so to speak) and
just like the AS29 and Loose Moose designs actually does the job. Its very
hard to argue with sea miles.
All sailing vessels are the stuff of compromise and to belittle someones
design, choice of vessel and home is most likely shows ones own lack of
experience.
If I had a penny for every time I heard how Loose Moose was not a proper
vessel or how it scandilized the anchorage I would be a rich man...If I had
waited for the perfect boat/keel/rig combination I would still be sitting in
France....so it goes.
Bob Wise
St Thomas USVI
<<The Badger started out as a shallow draft boat that didn't sail for
squat and they had to add the keel to get better sailing performance.>>
Badger always had a keel. I believe that they changed the original Concrete keel to a wing keel to reduce draft and to aid drying out
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Couger [SMTP:gcouger@...]
Sent: Wed 05 Jul 00 21:09
To:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] re: Badger, sailing dories, Bolger priorities, etc.
Even the owners of the Badger said the sailing quailities were not very
good. The Badger started out as a shallow draft boat that didn't sail for
squat and they had to add the keel to get better saling performance.
It would be an interesting exercize to design a deep keel boat that could
drop the keel and sail with reduced sails in shallow water. The chalange
is picking the keel up again.
A dory dosn't provide near as much lift to the windward when heeled as a
shapie.
Gordon
Gordon Cougergcouger@...
Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
From: "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>
Paul,
Thanks for posting this link. I had missed it.
on the part of those who don't read carefully and, in addition, take
the emphatic language too seriously. Our public discourse in the year
2000 is too often tempered with 'sort of', and 'somewhat',
and 'perhaps.' Writers like Bolger and Limbaugh get a reputation for
being clear thinkers just by leaving them out.
Actually, as near as I can tell, Bolger is a clear thinker, but
Limbaugh is not.
Anyway, there are a couple of points I would make.
1. Although AS-29 is derived from the sharpie and Badger is derived
from the dory, they are actually quite similar in length, weight, and
the breadth of the flat bottom. In my opinion, it is hard to denounce
one without damaging the other.
2. At this time, Mr. Bolger is extremely interested in shallow draft
boats, or should I say, he seems to be very uninterested in deep
draft boats. This puts him out-of-step with the majority of
designers. Buyers seem to have accepted deep draft as the price of
performance, and there is no sign of a mass defection to
centerboard/leeboard boats. Or if there is, it is restricted to multi-
hull sailors. To pick out one designer on the other side of the
fence, Robert Perry has several times suggested in his review column
in Sailing that some designer has limited the performance of a design
by keeping the draft to "only" 5' or 6' or whatever.
Mr. Bolger sails in a shallow bay in Massachusetts and Mr. Perry
sails in the deep waters of the Northwest....
So I presume that Mr. Bolger finds Badger too deep, Mr. Perry finds
Badger too shoal, and Mr. Benford takes pride in a design that has
taken its crew safely across oceans.
Peter
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Bolger rules!!!
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squat and they had to add the keel to get better sailing performance.>>
Badger always had a keel. I believe that they changed the original Concrete keel to a wing keel to reduce draft and to aid drying out
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Couger [SMTP:gcouger@...]
Sent: Wed 05 Jul 00 21:09
To:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] re: Badger, sailing dories, Bolger priorities, etc.
Even the owners of the Badger said the sailing quailities were not very
good. The Badger started out as a shallow draft boat that didn't sail for
squat and they had to add the keel to get better saling performance.
It would be an interesting exercize to design a deep keel boat that could
drop the keel and sail with reduced sails in shallow water. The chalange
is picking the keel up again.
A dory dosn't provide near as much lift to the windward when heeled as a
shapie.
Gordon
Gordon Cougergcouger@...
Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
From: "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>
Paul,
Thanks for posting this link. I had missed it.
>http://www.egroups.com/message/bolger/1256?&start=690This is exactly the sort of post that creates a lot of misconceptions
on the part of those who don't read carefully and, in addition, take
the emphatic language too seriously. Our public discourse in the year
2000 is too often tempered with 'sort of', and 'somewhat',
and 'perhaps.' Writers like Bolger and Limbaugh get a reputation for
being clear thinkers just by leaving them out.
Actually, as near as I can tell, Bolger is a clear thinker, but
Limbaugh is not.
Anyway, there are a couple of points I would make.
1. Although AS-29 is derived from the sharpie and Badger is derived
from the dory, they are actually quite similar in length, weight, and
the breadth of the flat bottom. In my opinion, it is hard to denounce
one without damaging the other.
2. At this time, Mr. Bolger is extremely interested in shallow draft
boats, or should I say, he seems to be very uninterested in deep
draft boats. This puts him out-of-step with the majority of
designers. Buyers seem to have accepted deep draft as the price of
performance, and there is no sign of a mass defection to
centerboard/leeboard boats. Or if there is, it is restricted to multi-
hull sailors. To pick out one designer on the other side of the
fence, Robert Perry has several times suggested in his review column
in Sailing that some designer has limited the performance of a design
by keeping the draft to "only" 5' or 6' or whatever.
Mr. Bolger sails in a shallow bay in Massachusetts and Mr. Perry
sails in the deep waters of the Northwest....
So I presume that Mr. Bolger finds Badger too deep, Mr. Perry finds
Badger too shoal, and Mr. Benford takes pride in a design that has
taken its crew safely across oceans.
Peter
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Bolger rules!!!
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> I don't have my source at hand...Just about the time I clicked "send," I found my copy of Boat Design
Quarterly No. 7 with the article about Badger. She is the 34' model.
Apparently, her original keel was a concrete fin, presumably of the
design depth of 4'6". (This is enough for good windward performance
if everything is otherwise right. I base this opinion on many hours
on a Tartan 33 with 4'6" Scheel keel.) The new keel is a tandem keel
(like two fins bridged at the tips) designed by Warwick Collins. This
reduces draft to 4'.
I quote from the article: "Designer Benford suggests that if driving
upwind is important, we should choose the taller cutter rig" rather
than the junk schooner.
Peter
> Even the owners of the Badger said the sailing quailities were notvery
> good. The Badger started out as a shallow draft boat that didn'tsail for
> squat and they had to add the keel to get better salingperformance.
>AS-29
LOA 29'6", Beam 7'10", Draft(board up) 1'1", Disp 7300lbs. SA 363 Sq
ft.
I'm not sure which model Badger is but for example:
Benford 32' Sailing Dory
LOA 32', Beam 9', Draft (fin keel) 4', Disp 6900 lbs., SA 500 sq ft
I think that suggestion that they are pretty similar holds up, if you
compare them with say, a Wharram cat, a Laurent Giles Virtue, a
Bolger Sweet Chariot. The concern about sailing dories is mostly
about power to carry sail, which doesn't seem to be a concern here.
I don't have my source at hand, but as I remember, due to great
concern about draft, Badger was fitted with a very shoal keel at
first, and then retro-fitted with a 'patent' keel. I don't think
anyone would expect much windward performance from either the
original keel or the rig.
Peter
Even the owners of the Badger said the sailing quailities were not very
good. The Badger started out as a shallow draft boat that didn't sail for
squat and they had to add the keel to get better saling performance.
It would be an interesting exercize to design a deep keel boat that could
drop the keel and sail with reduced sails in shallow water. The chalange
is picking the keel up again.
A dory dosn't provide near as much lift to the windward when heeled as a
shapie.
Gordon
Gordon Cougergcouger@...
Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
From: "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>
Paul,
Thanks for posting this link. I had missed it.
on the part of those who don't read carefully and, in addition, take
the emphatic language too seriously. Our public discourse in the year
2000 is too often tempered with 'sort of', and 'somewhat',
and 'perhaps.' Writers like Bolger and Limbaugh get a reputation for
being clear thinkers just by leaving them out.
Actually, as near as I can tell, Bolger is a clear thinker, but
Limbaugh is not.
Anyway, there are a couple of points I would make.
1. Although AS-29 is derived from the sharpie and Badger is derived
from the dory, they are actually quite similar in length, weight, and
the breadth of the flat bottom. In my opinion, it is hard to denounce
one without damaging the other.
2. At this time, Mr. Bolger is extremely interested in shallow draft
boats, or should I say, he seems to be very uninterested in deep
draft boats. This puts him out-of-step with the majority of
designers. Buyers seem to have accepted deep draft as the price of
performance, and there is no sign of a mass defection to
centerboard/leeboard boats. Or if there is, it is restricted to multi-
hull sailors. To pick out one designer on the other side of the
fence, Robert Perry has several times suggested in his review column
in Sailing that some designer has limited the performance of a design
by keeping the draft to "only" 5' or 6' or whatever.
Mr. Bolger sails in a shallow bay in Massachusetts and Mr. Perry
sails in the deep waters of the Northwest....
So I presume that Mr. Bolger finds Badger too deep, Mr. Perry finds
Badger too shoal, and Mr. Benford takes pride in a design that has
taken its crew safely across oceans.
Peter
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Vince Carter and Peyton Manning hang out? Where else?
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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing
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good. The Badger started out as a shallow draft boat that didn't sail for
squat and they had to add the keel to get better saling performance.
It would be an interesting exercize to design a deep keel boat that could
drop the keel and sail with reduced sails in shallow water. The chalange
is picking the keel up again.
A dory dosn't provide near as much lift to the windward when heeled as a
shapie.
Gordon
Gordon Cougergcouger@...
Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
From: "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>
Paul,
Thanks for posting this link. I had missed it.
>http://www.egroups.com/message/bolger/1256?&start=690This is exactly the sort of post that creates a lot of misconceptions
on the part of those who don't read carefully and, in addition, take
the emphatic language too seriously. Our public discourse in the year
2000 is too often tempered with 'sort of', and 'somewhat',
and 'perhaps.' Writers like Bolger and Limbaugh get a reputation for
being clear thinkers just by leaving them out.
Actually, as near as I can tell, Bolger is a clear thinker, but
Limbaugh is not.
Anyway, there are a couple of points I would make.
1. Although AS-29 is derived from the sharpie and Badger is derived
from the dory, they are actually quite similar in length, weight, and
the breadth of the flat bottom. In my opinion, it is hard to denounce
one without damaging the other.
2. At this time, Mr. Bolger is extremely interested in shallow draft
boats, or should I say, he seems to be very uninterested in deep
draft boats. This puts him out-of-step with the majority of
designers. Buyers seem to have accepted deep draft as the price of
performance, and there is no sign of a mass defection to
centerboard/leeboard boats. Or if there is, it is restricted to multi-
hull sailors. To pick out one designer on the other side of the
fence, Robert Perry has several times suggested in his review column
in Sailing that some designer has limited the performance of a design
by keeping the draft to "only" 5' or 6' or whatever.
Mr. Bolger sails in a shallow bay in Massachusetts and Mr. Perry
sails in the deep waters of the Northwest....
So I presume that Mr. Bolger finds Badger too deep, Mr. Perry finds
Badger too shoal, and Mr. Benford takes pride in a design that has
taken its crew safely across oceans.
Peter
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do sports heroes like Derek Jeter, Mia Hamm,
Vince Carter and Peyton Manning hang out? Where else?
Click now and find 'em all here!
http://click.egroups.com/1/6211/13/_/3457/_/962826609/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing
- stay on topic
- use punctuation
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.