Re: [bolger] Re: seeking opinions on rig choice
> the junk rig is one of my favorite rigs for all the reasons youIt is a good call to try to stick with the PCB plans, especially with
> mention however bolger seems not to agree and as this is a bolger boat
> I thought I would try to stick to his design parameters
a design element as important as the sail rig.
For what it is worth, PCB is not entirely opposed to the junk rig,
only to the loose battened type of junk rig.
The Bolger 'Chinese gaff' which has a jawed type of batten is a Bolger
junk rig. It is used on his Micro Navigator design, and also on the
Yonder, Hassle and Fiji designs. I can attest that the Chinese Gaff
is an effective sailing rig, though like all junk rigs, it is complex
with many pieces and parts. (And, most suited for 'navigator cabin'
types of sailboats.)
the junk rig is one of my favorite rigs for all the reasons you
mention however bolger seems not to agree and as this is a bolger boat
I thought I would try to stick to his design parameters, also as the
leg-o-mutton main is reefed the center of effort moves forward
maintaining helm balance with the mizzen, I don't think this would be
the case with the junk rig as it drops straight down. I am toying
with the idea of a tacking crab claw as well mainly because they are
so cool but also because the mast could be quite short < 20 feet i
would think and that would get around the tabernacle issue although it
might not look quite right
mention however bolger seems not to agree and as this is a bolger boat
I thought I would try to stick to his design parameters, also as the
leg-o-mutton main is reefed the center of effort moves forward
maintaining helm balance with the mizzen, I don't think this would be
the case with the junk rig as it drops straight down. I am toying
with the idea of a tacking crab claw as well mainly because they are
so cool but also because the mast could be quite short < 20 feet i
would think and that would get around the tabernacle issue although it
might not look quite right
Hi there,
Would not the easiest rig be a junk rig? They are reefed in seconds with one hand, they put themselves "to bed" by letting go the halyard and letting them drop into the lazy jacks, They maintain a proper sail shape at any point of reef, the will beat any similar boat off the wind and keep up with most on the wind, one never has to leave the cockpit to hoist, reef, drop, etc., there is no heavy boom to worry about, the sails won't flap and flog when left to "weathercock"... I could go on. If the mast on your boat is freestanding (ie. no stays or shrouds) there is (in my opinion) no more flexible rig for single handed safe (and therefore relaxed) sailing.
All the best.
Jon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Would not the easiest rig be a junk rig? They are reefed in seconds with one hand, they put themselves "to bed" by letting go the halyard and letting them drop into the lazy jacks, They maintain a proper sail shape at any point of reef, the will beat any similar boat off the wind and keep up with most on the wind, one never has to leave the cockpit to hoist, reef, drop, etc., there is no heavy boom to worry about, the sails won't flap and flog when left to "weathercock"... I could go on. If the mast on your boat is freestanding (ie. no stays or shrouds) there is (in my opinion) no more flexible rig for single handed safe (and therefore relaxed) sailing.
All the best.
Jon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thanks for all of the input having had my visions of a kiting club
flying around the deck at head height in adverse conditions verified I
am going to go with the standard leg-o-mutton rig but set in the
tabernacle drawn up for the solent lug option. I feel this is the best
choice for the boat as I intend to use it and I cant see any reason
not to go this route
btw has anyone heard of or seen an example of the black skimmer with
the jib? It s on the plans but it seems like an after thought
flying around the deck at head height in adverse conditions verified I
am going to go with the standard leg-o-mutton rig but set in the
tabernacle drawn up for the solent lug option. I feel this is the best
choice for the boat as I intend to use it and I cant see any reason
not to go this route
btw has anyone heard of or seen an example of the black skimmer with
the jib? It s on the plans but it seems like an after thought
Makes you wonder if the rig could not have a separate set of
attachment points to make it into a balanced lug for heavier winds
(i.e. vertical yard becomes horizontal yard). I've also wondered
about a small "utility" mizzen like that of an Oldshoe/Micro. Rowing
a BW in a crosswind can be a challenge since the rower sits so far
aft and the bow blows off downwind. The alternative is to retrofit a
bow centerboard, which was done with the Dovekie.
attachment points to make it into a balanced lug for heavier winds
(i.e. vertical yard becomes horizontal yard). I've also wondered
about a small "utility" mizzen like that of an Oldshoe/Micro. Rowing
a BW in a crosswind can be a challenge since the rower sits so far
aft and the bow blows off downwind. The alternative is to retrofit a
bow centerboard, which was done with the Dovekie.
On Sep 28, 2008, at 12:26 AM, Bob Larkin wrote:
> My Solent lug experience is with the BW2. A quick summary, after 2
> years with the boat:
>
> As drawn, the 144 sq-ft Solent-lug main plus 71 sq-ft jib makes the
> boat sail wonderfully, as a SA/D in the high 20's should. It is a fun
> rig.
>
> With 2 or 3 knowledgeable folks on board, the sail handling is
> good, up
> to the 15+ knot range. With practice, this could undoubtedly be
> extended.
>
> With one person, I feel the boat can be sailed in wind for which sail
> handling is very difficult or impossible. Until the sail is fully up,
> the bag/kite, along with the light weight of the boat, tends to pull
> one beam to the wind. This applies to wind in the 10+ kt range. The
> flailing of the sail and boom easily tangles a line, making the event
> more interesting. Remember, after reefing, one needs to get the sail
> and yard back up. As the wind picks up, I feel this can get wild.
>
> In addition, I feel the Solent lug for a boat size of BW2 or bigger is
> dangerous. The end of the yard is at head height, and looks a lot like
> a baseball bat. I have constrained the yard to the mast, to solve this
> safety issue (sliding gunter style). I would recommend this change.
>
> Equipment helps (I have all these): A halyard winch makes the raising
> faster. It has to go up fast! A line clutch makes it faster/easier,
> and is a useful aid for lowering the main. A four part downhaul
> (preset before raising the main) helps straighten the luff. I have
> found a boom topping lift keeps the sail out of the water.
>
> I'm certainly not as good at this as some. I'm a 68-year old guy, in
> reasonable shape, with about 20 years of random sailing experience.
> Each person must make their own decisions about what makes them
> comfortable. But, last winter, I got Lynne Fabricant
>http://www.sailmakersart.com/to make up a small main that would work
> on the mast without a yard. This is sort of a "second reef" for the
> big BW2 sail. I am trying to get web-notes together on this sail,
> along
> with more on the solent lug, so I won't add more here. But, for me,
> this has greatly increased the sailing options, when the wind picks
> up.
>
> Bob
> Corvallis, OR
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ehrenherman" <ehrenherman@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all I have been studying my plans for the black skimmer and am
> > trying to decide on the rig. The plans come with the options of a
> jib
> > headed sprit rig or the solent lug. My initial thought was the
> solent
> > lug for ease in dropping the mast for low bridges (Tampa bay) but
> the
> > prospect of the sail kiting away as I'm trying to reef in a blow has
> > given me pause, thats a big stick. Does anyone have actual
> experience
> > with the solent lug? is it fairly easy to handle in practice?
> > ....snip
>
>
>
=== craig o'donnell
dadadata@...
Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My Solent lug experience is with the BW2. A quick summary, after 2
years with the boat:
As drawn, the 144 sq-ft Solent-lug main plus 71 sq-ft jib makes the
boat sail wonderfully, as a SA/D in the high 20's should. It is a fun
rig.
With 2 or 3 knowledgeable folks on board, the sail handling is good, up
to the 15+ knot range. With practice, this could undoubtedly be
extended.
With one person, I feel the boat can be sailed in wind for which sail
handling is very difficult or impossible. Until the sail is fully up,
the bag/kite, along with the light weight of the boat, tends to pull
one beam to the wind. This applies to wind in the 10+ kt range. The
flailing of the sail and boom easily tangles a line, making the event
more interesting. Remember, after reefing, one needs to get the sail
and yard back up. As the wind picks up, I feel this can get wild.
In addition, I feel the Solent lug for a boat size of BW2 or bigger is
dangerous. The end of the yard is at head height, and looks a lot like
a baseball bat. I have constrained the yard to the mast, to solve this
safety issue (sliding gunter style). I would recommend this change.
Equipment helps (I have all these): A halyard winch makes the raising
faster. It has to go up fast! A line clutch makes it faster/easier,
and is a useful aid for lowering the main. A four part downhaul
(preset before raising the main) helps straighten the luff. I have
found a boom topping lift keeps the sail out of the water.
I'm certainly not as good at this as some. I'm a 68-year old guy, in
reasonable shape, with about 20 years of random sailing experience.
Each person must make their own decisions about what makes them
comfortable. But, last winter, I got Lynne Fabricant
http://www.sailmakersart.com/to make up a small main that would work
on the mast without a yard. This is sort of a "second reef" for the
big BW2 sail. I am trying to get web-notes together on this sail, along
with more on the solent lug, so I won't add more here. But, for me,
this has greatly increased the sailing options, when the wind picks up.
Bob
Corvallis, OR
years with the boat:
As drawn, the 144 sq-ft Solent-lug main plus 71 sq-ft jib makes the
boat sail wonderfully, as a SA/D in the high 20's should. It is a fun
rig.
With 2 or 3 knowledgeable folks on board, the sail handling is good, up
to the 15+ knot range. With practice, this could undoubtedly be
extended.
With one person, I feel the boat can be sailed in wind for which sail
handling is very difficult or impossible. Until the sail is fully up,
the bag/kite, along with the light weight of the boat, tends to pull
one beam to the wind. This applies to wind in the 10+ kt range. The
flailing of the sail and boom easily tangles a line, making the event
more interesting. Remember, after reefing, one needs to get the sail
and yard back up. As the wind picks up, I feel this can get wild.
In addition, I feel the Solent lug for a boat size of BW2 or bigger is
dangerous. The end of the yard is at head height, and looks a lot like
a baseball bat. I have constrained the yard to the mast, to solve this
safety issue (sliding gunter style). I would recommend this change.
Equipment helps (I have all these): A halyard winch makes the raising
faster. It has to go up fast! A line clutch makes it faster/easier,
and is a useful aid for lowering the main. A four part downhaul
(preset before raising the main) helps straighten the luff. I have
found a boom topping lift keeps the sail out of the water.
I'm certainly not as good at this as some. I'm a 68-year old guy, in
reasonable shape, with about 20 years of random sailing experience.
Each person must make their own decisions about what makes them
comfortable. But, last winter, I got Lynne Fabricant
http://www.sailmakersart.com/to make up a small main that would work
on the mast without a yard. This is sort of a "second reef" for the
big BW2 sail. I am trying to get web-notes together on this sail, along
with more on the solent lug, so I won't add more here. But, for me,
this has greatly increased the sailing options, when the wind picks up.
Bob
Corvallis, OR
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ehrenherman" <ehrenherman@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all I have been studying my plans for the black skimmer and am
> trying to decide on the rig. The plans come with the options of a jib
> headed sprit rig or the solent lug. My initial thought was the solent
> lug for ease in dropping the mast for low bridges (Tampa bay) but the
> prospect of the sail kiting away as I'm trying to reef in a blow has
> given me pause, thats a big stick. Does anyone have actual experience
> with the solent lug? is it fairly easy to handle in practice?
> ....snip
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
Mason,
how so? It shouldn't have had to come down for reefing on BW1.
Pull on a string and the reef is taken into the mast. Slacken the
string and the reef shakes out. At least that's how it could be.
PCB shows a funny way to reeve that reefing line (brail) - just one
overly long zig-zagged string through alternating grommets with
plenty of opportunity to bind, where it should be one heavy string
all the way up the luff with smaller brails whipped/spliced onto it
and out through paired grommets at equal heights that has any
friction sequenced in parallel and only has to be handed a couple of
feet (see Fig 38, American Small Sailing Craft by H I Chapelle).
With that BW original sail, I don't see how a jib also could not be
set flying. The turning block could be at any convenient mast height
as that style of reefing won't see it interfere with the sail
lacings. Similarly, the snotter doesn't interfere with reefing, so
it doesn't have to be handed or repositioned, but just slackened or
tightened along with the reef brail as the case may be.
Graeme
> It came down in a hurry, which you can't say for the regular BWrig.
Mason,
how so? It shouldn't have had to come down for reefing on BW1.
Pull on a string and the reef is taken into the mast. Slacken the
string and the reef shakes out. At least that's how it could be.
PCB shows a funny way to reeve that reefing line (brail) - just one
overly long zig-zagged string through alternating grommets with
plenty of opportunity to bind, where it should be one heavy string
all the way up the luff with smaller brails whipped/spliced onto it
and out through paired grommets at equal heights that has any
friction sequenced in parallel and only has to be handed a couple of
feet (see Fig 38, American Small Sailing Craft by H I Chapelle).
With that BW original sail, I don't see how a jib also could not be
set flying. The turning block could be at any convenient mast height
as that style of reefing won't see it interfere with the sail
lacings. Similarly, the snotter doesn't interfere with reefing, so
it doesn't have to be handed or repositioned, but just slackened or
tightened along with the reef brail as the case may be.
Graeme
I do have some experience with the Solent lug. It was discussed (my experience, that is) by Phil and Susanne in some articles in Messing About inBoats a couple of years ago. I had the rig on my second Birdwatcher. It seemed to me the only way that could have been used, practically, to increase the power of the Birdwatcher rig, and I think you see it on BW II. It required a very good 2:1 downhaul. It came down in a hurry, which you can't say for the regular BW rig. It was easier to raise the mast, it being shorter and not burdened with the sail. It was a bit of a loose cannon, partway up or partway down, and required some learned techniques; and it filled the boat with sail when lete down, and was fairly hard to bundle up and organize single-handed. Way less simple than the standard sail but it upped the performance nicely. I used it with a roller furling jib set flying, tacked to the forward slope of the cabin-top, as far forward as it could be and still be aligned with the offset mast. Not like the BWII jib. ---Mason Smith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have the optional solent lug rig on a Birdwatcher. It is 144 square
feet. I have not had problems with it kiting. I tie the tack of the
sail to the mast before hoisting to keep this corner under control.
(This line is not otherwise necessary as the downhaul is supposed to
control it.) I try to hoist the yard very quickly and also try to get
it down quickly but still under control. That is, it ideally comes
down just slowly enough to avoid rope burns.
I have not had the occasion to reef in a blow. If in doubt, I start
out with a reef and shake it out if conditions warrant. Bear in mind
that to reef, the yard has to be dropped on deck. The halyard
attachment has to move up the yard when reefing. This causes minimal
trouble in the Birdwatcher, since the sail and yard can be dropped
into the slot top of the cabin, out of the wind. It could get away
from you on deck of the Black Skimmer, though having the mizzen to
keep head to wind will help. The boom moves to a new clew cringle
when reefing. It is still tied to the boat by the snotter and the
sheet, but it could go over the side if not controlled.
The yard on BW is a 16' 2x4 whittled down on both ends, substantially
at the top. The sail remains lashed to the yard, so you will want a
long sailbag.
In the case of Birdwatcher, the lug mast is 3.5' shorter for a larger
sail (144 vs 125 square feet). I suspect this is a real advantage
when manhandling the mast. It would be somewhat less a factor with a
tabernacle, especially if you can have substantial counterweight.
Doug
feet. I have not had problems with it kiting. I tie the tack of the
sail to the mast before hoisting to keep this corner under control.
(This line is not otherwise necessary as the downhaul is supposed to
control it.) I try to hoist the yard very quickly and also try to get
it down quickly but still under control. That is, it ideally comes
down just slowly enough to avoid rope burns.
I have not had the occasion to reef in a blow. If in doubt, I start
out with a reef and shake it out if conditions warrant. Bear in mind
that to reef, the yard has to be dropped on deck. The halyard
attachment has to move up the yard when reefing. This causes minimal
trouble in the Birdwatcher, since the sail and yard can be dropped
into the slot top of the cabin, out of the wind. It could get away
from you on deck of the Black Skimmer, though having the mizzen to
keep head to wind will help. The boom moves to a new clew cringle
when reefing. It is still tied to the boat by the snotter and the
sheet, but it could go over the side if not controlled.
The yard on BW is a 16' 2x4 whittled down on both ends, substantially
at the top. The sail remains lashed to the yard, so you will want a
long sailbag.
In the case of Birdwatcher, the lug mast is 3.5' shorter for a larger
sail (144 vs 125 square feet). I suspect this is a real advantage
when manhandling the mast. It would be somewhat less a factor with a
tabernacle, especially if you can have substantial counterweight.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ehrenherman" <ehrenherman@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all I have been studying my plans for the black skimmer and am
> trying to decide on the rig. The plans come with the options of a jib
> headed sprit rig or the solent lug. My initial thought was the solent
> lug for ease in dropping the mast for low bridges (Tampa bay) but the
> prospect of the sail kiting away as I'm trying to reef in a blow has
> given me pause, thats a big stick. Does anyone have actual experience
> with the solent lug? is it fairly easy to handle in practice?
http://www.nexusmarine.com/skimmer_sailing.html
HJ
ehrenherman wrote:
HJ
ehrenherman wrote:
> Hello all I have been studying my plans for the black skimmer and am
> trying to decide on the rig. The plans come with the options of a jib
> headed sprit rig or the solent lug. My initial thought was the solent
> lug for ease in dropping the mast for low bridges (Tampa bay) but the
> prospect of the sail kiting away as I'm trying to reef in a blow has
> given me pause, thats a big stick. Does anyone have actual experience
> with the solent lug? is it fairly easy to handle in practice?
>
> Currently I am considering going with the jib headed sail and using
> the tabernacle as designed. I realize that the mast will hang off the
> back of the boat a bit but as I don't plan to trailer this boat much
> I'm not overly concerned with that, are there any other issues I am
> overlooking?
>
>
>
>
Hello all I have been studying my plans for the black skimmer and am
trying to decide on the rig. The plans come with the options of a jib
headed sprit rig or the solent lug. My initial thought was the solent
lug for ease in dropping the mast for low bridges (Tampa bay) but the
prospect of the sail kiting away as I'm trying to reef in a blow has
given me pause, thats a big stick. Does anyone have actual experience
with the solent lug? is it fairly easy to handle in practice?
Currently I am considering going with the jib headed sail and using
the tabernacle as designed. I realize that the mast will hang off the
back of the boat a bit but as I don't plan to trailer this boat much
I'm not overly concerned with that, are there any other issues I am
overlooking?
trying to decide on the rig. The plans come with the options of a jib
headed sprit rig or the solent lug. My initial thought was the solent
lug for ease in dropping the mast for low bridges (Tampa bay) but the
prospect of the sail kiting away as I'm trying to reef in a blow has
given me pause, thats a big stick. Does anyone have actual experience
with the solent lug? is it fairly easy to handle in practice?
Currently I am considering going with the jib headed sail and using
the tabernacle as designed. I realize that the mast will hang off the
back of the boat a bit but as I don't plan to trailer this boat much
I'm not overly concerned with that, are there any other issues I am
overlooking?