Re: replace epoxy with resorcinal??
> Thanks everyone for the good feedback. Im thinking of somethingYou can find my writeup on the Cynthia J in the File section. Since
> like Cynthia J ( or maybe a 24x8 sailing scow ( triple brick ? )
> since I liked double brick so much.
this boat is full framed, you can use any good woodworking glue if
your fits are good. There are some tricky parts to the "instant boat"
construction, though, which you want to think about.
Bolger's written instructions suggest making the frames and cutting
out the side panels. Then attaching the sides to the frames "on the
fly", i.e. not using any sort of building frame. It can be tricky
getting things lined up and clamped because there is plenty of spring
to the sides and once you cut the bevels, the surfaces available for
clamping are no longer parallel. Clamps can slide out of place, etc.
You do need an adhesive with a long enough working time.
Thanks everyone for the good feedback. Im thinking of something
like Cynthia J ( or maybe a 24x8 sailing scow ( triple brick ? )
since I liked double brick so much.
Bill
like Cynthia J ( or maybe a 24x8 sailing scow ( triple brick ? )
since I liked double brick so much.
Bill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <bigtiddles69@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill
> Sure 'nuff, all the resorcinol joins on old ply boats I've rebuilt
> have crystalised, dried out, & failed over time,
> Early Mirror dinghies were stitch + tape, using Polyester
resin....
> seen a lot of those fail, too.
> I've never come across an example of a well made epoxy joint that
> failed in the glue....... ALWAYS, the wood lets go first.
> Regarding sheathing & coating....... Polyester/glass is a disaster
> looking for a place to happen..... the wet gets in between the
> sheathing & the wood, the wood STAYS wet, & rots.... VERY fast.
I've
> seen a ply over frame boat where the entire bottom was rotted out,
&
> the only thing keeping it afloat (briefly) was the 1.5 mm of
> poly/glass sheathing.
> well built ply/epoxy boats with glass/epoxy coating are the most
> durable & maintenence-reduced you can get (even with shoddy modern
> ply.... & Doug's right about the wood being just as important)
> ....Sorry!! I hate using it too, but I wouldn't build a boat using
> anything else unless I considered it "disposable"
> Cheers Dave
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rpspiritwaters" <rpspiritwaters@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > builders,
> > >
> > > allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and
> gloving
> > > to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood
joints
> with
> > > resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester or
> > > vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for
> any
> > > help.
> > >
> > > bill in nc
> > >
> > Bruce is right, we repair Muskoka boats using traditional
methods,
> good
> > jointery and fastners. Poly glue is good stuff, 3M 5200 glues up
> great
> > just a bit messy, Epoxy has it uses but is not the do all to end
all
> >
> > Randy
> >
>
Doug
You make a very important point about different glues for different
woods. It is all-important.
Ash, mahogany, spruce, cedar and many others (Have you shopped for
hardwood lately? They are coming up with species whose names sound
more like rap artists' than anything else!) will glue up with epoxy or
aliphatics like they grew together but may not resist rot or abrasion
very well, while the oak I favor doesn't like anything but resorcinol.
Almost half-way down this page there is a string of about six photos,
one of which is of charred wood. See what this says about
polyurethane glue.
Dave
You make a very important point about different glues for different
woods. It is all-important.
Ash, mahogany, spruce, cedar and many others (Have you shopped for
hardwood lately? They are coming up with species whose names sound
more like rap artists' than anything else!) will glue up with epoxy or
aliphatics like they grew together but may not resist rot or abrasion
very well, while the oak I favor doesn't like anything but resorcinol.
Almost half-way down this page there is a string of about six photos,
one of which is of charred wood. See what this says about
polyurethane glue.
Dave
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
> I Like resorsanol glue. I like epoxy but hate to use it. I also
> like tight bond three.These are for the most part the glues I have
> experience with. I'm sure there are others out there that like other
glues.
> A little on where my experience comes fro is that I am older than
> dirt. I am dumb as a stump. A good friend says you may be dumb Doug,
but
> you have the best memory of anyone I know, so dumb or not you know a
lot
> of stuff. So this is some of what I remember about glue and wood. Any
> talk of boat building glue without talking about wood is a complete
> waste of time. I think!!
> In the late 1930's when I was a small boy everyone in our neighbor
> hood had a half rotten old boat in the water and a new one under
> construction in the back yard. The boats were mostly sharpies but more
> and more people were copying Owens yacht companies power boats as well
> as the type of construction. The sharpies had almost no glue in them
> and were held to together with nails and some screws. The new boats
> were glue and screws with a few nails. The glue was Casco a cheap glue
> and used above the water line. From a little above the waterline down
> was used resoranol glue and bronze screws. There was no stainless
steel
> or it was very expensive and hard to come by and completely not trusted.
> Speaking of Bronze screws, The wood including planking was hard
and
> close grained and there were no electric screwdrivers that would have
> been laughed at by boat builders because the could not have been
used to
> drive screws into that harder wood. Screws were waxed or soaped and
> driven in with the tremendous force applied by the Brace and bit. They
> were big and long with a large root diameter. The glue held the
wood in
> place only in the six inch long section between screws. I used to hear
> all the time that screws were not needed after the glue hardened and it
> may be so, but I have known any one to take them all out after gluing.
> WWII brought plywood onto the scene, a huge change. We laughed at
> the landing barges built by Owens and many said they hoped the war did
> not last long because all the landing barges were going to fall apart.
> Peoples earlier experience with plywood had been a disaster and a
little
> of that attitude falsely exists today. The resorsanol glue held up in
> many of those barges for as much as fifty years and the amazing
thing is
> so did the Casco glue that held the laminations together. Resorsonal
> glue was not used to laminate plywood during the war years but
excellent
> wood was, and the laminates in the plywood were excellent as well. At
> the time we didn't know that because we did not have modern wood to
> compare it to. It's kind of like the Eskimo that doesn't know he is
> cold because he has never been warm. And thats a well worn phrase!!
> In 1946 I was 12 years old and helping my older friends build punts
> and duck boats at that time the wood was excellent it was still coming
> out of the deep forests where trees had struggle for light and
> nutrients. These trees grew slow with narrow rings and even the pulpy
> wood was tough and rot resistant. I am speaking here of boat lumber
> there was plenty of trash wood going into houses and even so most are
> standing today.
> Today most of us home builders are using the junk wood that comes
> from big box stores that is of a quality suitable to make paper from.
> Do you really need a strong glue to hold wood together that is so weak
> that the glue can pull chunks of wood off. If ripped apart?? Seems to
> me that boats of stitch and glue construction need epoxy because she
> needs to be built with epoxy on glass in joints and I don't believe any
> other glue can be used in this way. I think that epoxy and glass are
> important for a covering to protect such sorry wood. If a boat is
being
> built to go to sea the best wood and glue as well as good screws. By
> best glue I am thinking of epoxy and should be sheathed in glass and
> epoxy as well as even carbon fiber in areas that are vulnerable. Good
> wood can still be gotten but its a chore.
> I stated earlier that I am dumb if you don't think so, consider
> this I built my Elver from really nice long leaf yellow pine and then
> used big box plywood for bottom ,decks and bulkheads and when it has
> all rotted away my planking will still be there. I would say, either
> build your boat out of cheap wood and cheap everything else or build it
> out of all good stuff I would not mix and match.
> I'd say the best glue may not be the best for a boat to be used
for
> dinking around and the best may be what's easy to use. This of course
> only applies if the glue is good enough, to do the job. Really and
> truly the cheapest glue may be epoxy if you have a good way to mix very
> small amounts of it. Of course it you think ahead you may be able to
> use the left over to glue something else or coat something for
> protection. I find it hard to construct things in epoxy because I am
> always tearing my gloved or clamping the finger tips of the between to
> pieces of wood and pulling off the finger tips.
> If I go to sea in a boat I want good screws as well as good glue in
> it because I don't want to wake up at 3A.M. wondering if a seam has
> pulled apart. I have absolute confidence in a seam that is screwed and
> glued and covered with a couple layers of glass and epoxy and I get a
> warm fuzzy feeling about that same boat with no through hulls. The same
> boat with hatches and topside built with the same strength and care as
> the bottom.
> I guess it's irrational but somehow I don't get the same secure
> feeling out of a glass boat. There is something about all the
different
> layers of different materials that in my mind instills confidence in a
> wood glass composite boat.
> Even a steel or aluminum boat give and instants of fright when
there
> is a sudden thump on the hull. My mind instantly goes to a little
> mistrust of the mysteriousness of the welds hold the seams together.
> AS a young man I sailed on boats where you woke up and felt the
cabin
> sole for water every morning that is a great relief when none is found,
> but doe's not show a lot of confidence before the fact.
> Fear has caused a lot of tragedies at sea and most of it is
cause by
> some lack of confidence in some part of a boat, the mind jumps to the
> wrong conclusion and grave mistakes are made.
>
> Doug
>
Hi Bill
Sure 'nuff, all the resorcinol joins on old ply boats I've rebuilt
have crystalised, dried out, & failed over time,
Early Mirror dinghies were stitch + tape, using Polyester resin....
seen a lot of those fail, too.
I've never come across an example of a well made epoxy joint that
failed in the glue....... ALWAYS, the wood lets go first.
Regarding sheathing & coating....... Polyester/glass is a disaster
looking for a place to happen..... the wet gets in between the
sheathing & the wood, the wood STAYS wet, & rots.... VERY fast. I've
seen a ply over frame boat where the entire bottom was rotted out, &
the only thing keeping it afloat (briefly) was the 1.5 mm of
poly/glass sheathing.
well built ply/epoxy boats with glass/epoxy coating are the most
durable & maintenence-reduced you can get (even with shoddy modern
ply.... & Doug's right about the wood being just as important)
....Sorry!! I hate using it too, but I wouldn't build a boat using
anything else unless I considered it "disposable"
Cheers Dave
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rpspiritwaters" <rpspiritwaters@...>
wrote:
Sure 'nuff, all the resorcinol joins on old ply boats I've rebuilt
have crystalised, dried out, & failed over time,
Early Mirror dinghies were stitch + tape, using Polyester resin....
seen a lot of those fail, too.
I've never come across an example of a well made epoxy joint that
failed in the glue....... ALWAYS, the wood lets go first.
Regarding sheathing & coating....... Polyester/glass is a disaster
looking for a place to happen..... the wet gets in between the
sheathing & the wood, the wood STAYS wet, & rots.... VERY fast. I've
seen a ply over frame boat where the entire bottom was rotted out, &
the only thing keeping it afloat (briefly) was the 1.5 mm of
poly/glass sheathing.
well built ply/epoxy boats with glass/epoxy coating are the most
durable & maintenence-reduced you can get (even with shoddy modern
ply.... & Doug's right about the wood being just as important)
....Sorry!! I hate using it too, but I wouldn't build a boat using
anything else unless I considered it "disposable"
Cheers Dave
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rpspiritwaters" <rpspiritwaters@...>
wrote:
>gloving
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
> wrote:
> >
> > builders,
> >
> > allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and
> > to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood jointswith
> > resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester orany
> > vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for
> > help.good
> >
> > bill in nc
> >
> Bruce is right, we repair Muskoka boats using traditional methods,
> jointery and fastners. Poly glue is good stuff, 3M 5200 glues upgreat
> just a bit messy, Epoxy has it uses but is not the do all to end all
>
> Randy
>
It should be noted Gorila Glue and all its clones is not recomended for
areas that are constently wet (below the water line and potental). It
says water proof on the front in big letters and on the back in the
fine print water resistant. A kind of how do you define sex sort of
thing. Not a great glue for open boats or for the hull and cabin
exterior. Did I mention it can cost as much as 50% more then epoxy
depending on where you buy the epoxy.
Jon
areas that are constently wet (below the water line and potental). It
says water proof on the front in big letters and on the back in the
fine print water resistant. A kind of how do you define sex sort of
thing. Not a great glue for open boats or for the hull and cabin
exterior. Did I mention it can cost as much as 50% more then epoxy
depending on where you buy the epoxy.
Jon
titanicslim wrote:
like tight bond three.These are for the most part the glues I have
experience with. I'm sure there are others out there that like other glues.
A little on where my experience comes fro is that I am older than
dirt. I am dumb as a stump. A good friend says you may be dumb Doug, but
you have the best memory of anyone I know, so dumb or not you know a lot
of stuff. So this is some of what I remember about glue and wood. Any
talk of boat building glue without talking about wood is a complete
waste of time. I think!!
In the late 1930's when I was a small boy everyone in our neighbor
hood had a half rotten old boat in the water and a new one under
construction in the back yard. The boats were mostly sharpies but more
and more people were copying Owens yacht companies power boats as well
as the type of construction. The sharpies had almost no glue in them
and were held to together with nails and some screws. The new boats
were glue and screws with a few nails. The glue was Casco a cheap glue
and used above the water line. From a little above the waterline down
was used resoranol glue and bronze screws. There was no stainless steel
or it was very expensive and hard to come by and completely not trusted.
Speaking of Bronze screws, The wood including planking was hard and
close grained and there were no electric screwdrivers that would have
been laughed at by boat builders because the could not have been used to
drive screws into that harder wood. Screws were waxed or soaped and
driven in with the tremendous force applied by the Brace and bit. They
were big and long with a large root diameter. The glue held the wood in
place only in the six inch long section between screws. I used to hear
all the time that screws were not needed after the glue hardened and it
may be so, but I have known any one to take them all out after gluing.
WWII brought plywood onto the scene, a huge change. We laughed at
the landing barges built by Owens and many said they hoped the war did
not last long because all the landing barges were going to fall apart.
Peoples earlier experience with plywood had been a disaster and a little
of that attitude falsely exists today. The resorsanol glue held up in
many of those barges for as much as fifty years and the amazing thing is
so did the Casco glue that held the laminations together. Resorsonal
glue was not used to laminate plywood during the war years but excellent
wood was, and the laminates in the plywood were excellent as well. At
the time we didn't know that because we did not have modern wood to
compare it to. It's kind of like the Eskimo that doesn't know he is
cold because he has never been warm. And thats a well worn phrase!!
In 1946 I was 12 years old and helping my older friends build punts
and duck boats at that time the wood was excellent it was still coming
out of the deep forests where trees had struggle for light and
nutrients. These trees grew slow with narrow rings and even the pulpy
wood was tough and rot resistant. I am speaking here of boat lumber
there was plenty of trash wood going into houses and even so most are
standing today.
Today most of us home builders are using the junk wood that comes
from big box stores that is of a quality suitable to make paper from.
Do you really need a strong glue to hold wood together that is so weak
that the glue can pull chunks of wood off. If ripped apart?? Seems to
me that boats of stitch and glue construction need epoxy because she
needs to be built with epoxy on glass in joints and I don't believe any
other glue can be used in this way. I think that epoxy and glass are
important for a covering to protect such sorry wood. If a boat is being
built to go to sea the best wood and glue as well as good screws. By
best glue I am thinking of epoxy and should be sheathed in glass and
epoxy as well as even carbon fiber in areas that are vulnerable. Good
wood can still be gotten but its a chore.
I stated earlier that I am dumb if you don't think so, consider
this I built my Elver from really nice long leaf yellow pine and then
used big box plywood for bottom ,decks and bulkheads and when it has
all rotted away my planking will still be there. I would say, either
build your boat out of cheap wood and cheap everything else or build it
out of all good stuff I would not mix and match.
I'd say the best glue may not be the best for a boat to be used for
dinking around and the best may be what's easy to use. This of course
only applies if the glue is good enough, to do the job. Really and
truly the cheapest glue may be epoxy if you have a good way to mix very
small amounts of it. Of course it you think ahead you may be able to
use the left over to glue something else or coat something for
protection. I find it hard to construct things in epoxy because I am
always tearing my gloved or clamping the finger tips of the between to
pieces of wood and pulling off the finger tips.
If I go to sea in a boat I want good screws as well as good glue in
it because I don't want to wake up at 3A.M. wondering if a seam has
pulled apart. I have absolute confidence in a seam that is screwed and
glued and covered with a couple layers of glass and epoxy and I get a
warm fuzzy feeling about that same boat with no through hulls. The same
boat with hatches and topside built with the same strength and care as
the bottom.
I guess it's irrational but somehow I don't get the same secure
feeling out of a glass boat. There is something about all the different
layers of different materials that in my mind instills confidence in a
wood glass composite boat.
Even a steel or aluminum boat give and instants of fright when there
is a sudden thump on the hull. My mind instantly goes to a little
mistrust of the mysteriousness of the welds hold the seams together.
AS a young man I sailed on boats where you woke up and felt the cabin
sole for water every morning that is a great relief when none is found,
but doe's not show a lot of confidence before the fact.
Fear has caused a lot of tragedies at sea and most of it is cause by
some lack of confidence in some part of a boat, the mind jumps to the
wrong conclusion and grave mistakes are made.
Doug
>I Like resorsanol glue. I like epoxy but hate to use it. I also
> I'm sure that is correct, and the main reason a resorcinol joint must
> be very strongly clamped. It is nothing at all like epoxy and other
> resins. (Which reminds me: might the failed joints you mention
> sometimes in fact be plastic resin glue- PRG? Weldwood.)
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jon
> & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
> >> resorcinal gets brittle over time. The same reason old chair joints
> > fail over time.
> >
> > Jon
>
>
like tight bond three.These are for the most part the glues I have
experience with. I'm sure there are others out there that like other glues.
A little on where my experience comes fro is that I am older than
dirt. I am dumb as a stump. A good friend says you may be dumb Doug, but
you have the best memory of anyone I know, so dumb or not you know a lot
of stuff. So this is some of what I remember about glue and wood. Any
talk of boat building glue without talking about wood is a complete
waste of time. I think!!
In the late 1930's when I was a small boy everyone in our neighbor
hood had a half rotten old boat in the water and a new one under
construction in the back yard. The boats were mostly sharpies but more
and more people were copying Owens yacht companies power boats as well
as the type of construction. The sharpies had almost no glue in them
and were held to together with nails and some screws. The new boats
were glue and screws with a few nails. The glue was Casco a cheap glue
and used above the water line. From a little above the waterline down
was used resoranol glue and bronze screws. There was no stainless steel
or it was very expensive and hard to come by and completely not trusted.
Speaking of Bronze screws, The wood including planking was hard and
close grained and there were no electric screwdrivers that would have
been laughed at by boat builders because the could not have been used to
drive screws into that harder wood. Screws were waxed or soaped and
driven in with the tremendous force applied by the Brace and bit. They
were big and long with a large root diameter. The glue held the wood in
place only in the six inch long section between screws. I used to hear
all the time that screws were not needed after the glue hardened and it
may be so, but I have known any one to take them all out after gluing.
WWII brought plywood onto the scene, a huge change. We laughed at
the landing barges built by Owens and many said they hoped the war did
not last long because all the landing barges were going to fall apart.
Peoples earlier experience with plywood had been a disaster and a little
of that attitude falsely exists today. The resorsanol glue held up in
many of those barges for as much as fifty years and the amazing thing is
so did the Casco glue that held the laminations together. Resorsonal
glue was not used to laminate plywood during the war years but excellent
wood was, and the laminates in the plywood were excellent as well. At
the time we didn't know that because we did not have modern wood to
compare it to. It's kind of like the Eskimo that doesn't know he is
cold because he has never been warm. And thats a well worn phrase!!
In 1946 I was 12 years old and helping my older friends build punts
and duck boats at that time the wood was excellent it was still coming
out of the deep forests where trees had struggle for light and
nutrients. These trees grew slow with narrow rings and even the pulpy
wood was tough and rot resistant. I am speaking here of boat lumber
there was plenty of trash wood going into houses and even so most are
standing today.
Today most of us home builders are using the junk wood that comes
from big box stores that is of a quality suitable to make paper from.
Do you really need a strong glue to hold wood together that is so weak
that the glue can pull chunks of wood off. If ripped apart?? Seems to
me that boats of stitch and glue construction need epoxy because she
needs to be built with epoxy on glass in joints and I don't believe any
other glue can be used in this way. I think that epoxy and glass are
important for a covering to protect such sorry wood. If a boat is being
built to go to sea the best wood and glue as well as good screws. By
best glue I am thinking of epoxy and should be sheathed in glass and
epoxy as well as even carbon fiber in areas that are vulnerable. Good
wood can still be gotten but its a chore.
I stated earlier that I am dumb if you don't think so, consider
this I built my Elver from really nice long leaf yellow pine and then
used big box plywood for bottom ,decks and bulkheads and when it has
all rotted away my planking will still be there. I would say, either
build your boat out of cheap wood and cheap everything else or build it
out of all good stuff I would not mix and match.
I'd say the best glue may not be the best for a boat to be used for
dinking around and the best may be what's easy to use. This of course
only applies if the glue is good enough, to do the job. Really and
truly the cheapest glue may be epoxy if you have a good way to mix very
small amounts of it. Of course it you think ahead you may be able to
use the left over to glue something else or coat something for
protection. I find it hard to construct things in epoxy because I am
always tearing my gloved or clamping the finger tips of the between to
pieces of wood and pulling off the finger tips.
If I go to sea in a boat I want good screws as well as good glue in
it because I don't want to wake up at 3A.M. wondering if a seam has
pulled apart. I have absolute confidence in a seam that is screwed and
glued and covered with a couple layers of glass and epoxy and I get a
warm fuzzy feeling about that same boat with no through hulls. The same
boat with hatches and topside built with the same strength and care as
the bottom.
I guess it's irrational but somehow I don't get the same secure
feeling out of a glass boat. There is something about all the different
layers of different materials that in my mind instills confidence in a
wood glass composite boat.
Even a steel or aluminum boat give and instants of fright when there
is a sudden thump on the hull. My mind instantly goes to a little
mistrust of the mysteriousness of the welds hold the seams together.
AS a young man I sailed on boats where you woke up and felt the cabin
sole for water every morning that is a great relief when none is found,
but doe's not show a lot of confidence before the fact.
Fear has caused a lot of tragedies at sea and most of it is cause by
some lack of confidence in some part of a boat, the mind jumps to the
wrong conclusion and grave mistakes are made.
Doug
Dural used to make a powdered marine glue.
Have used Weldbond with good results for years.
DURA PRO Information & Order Desk:
U.S.: 800 537 4502 ext. 1252)
Canada: 800 361 2340
E-Mail:durapro@...
DURA PRO is a trademark of Dural Industries Inc. in the United States
and of Dural, A Division of Multibond Inc. in Canada; both leading
manufacturers of adhesives, coatings and polymers.
I have no stake in this company.
Mark
Have used Weldbond with good results for years.
DURA PRO Information & Order Desk:
U.S.: 800 537 4502 ext. 1252)
Canada: 800 361 2340
E-Mail:durapro@...
DURA PRO is a trademark of Dural Industries Inc. in the United States
and of Dural, A Division of Multibond Inc. in Canada; both leading
manufacturers of adhesives, coatings and polymers.
I have no stake in this company.
Mark
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@...>
wrote:
jointery and fastners. Poly glue is good stuff, 3M 5200 glues up great
just a bit messy, Epoxy has it uses but is not the do all to end all
Randy
wrote:
>Bruce is right, we repair Muskoka boats using traditional methods, good
> builders,
>
> allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and gloving
> to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood joints with
> resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester or
> vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for any
> help.
>
> bill in nc
>
jointery and fastners. Poly glue is good stuff, 3M 5200 glues up great
just a bit messy, Epoxy has it uses but is not the do all to end all
Randy
Just to be clear, there are glues which can replace epoxy in a
well-fitted, wood-to-wood joint. That is well accepted.
Some people have tried various substitutes for epoxy in stitch & glue
boatbuilding. Although there have been some short term successes in
small boats, I am not aware of any substitutes for epoxy that have
been generally accepted for these joints where the wood surfaces are
not well mated.
You need to choose your catboat design to suit the glue you want to
use. I would not build Bolger's Bob Cat, aka Tiny Cat, using any glue
other than epoxy. There are catboat designs of just about every size
that can be built without epoxy. The original Beetle Cat, for example,
may have no glue at all. William Garden's Tom Cat could be built with
glues other than epoxy.
If you elaborate on what sort of boat you want, and what your skills
are, we can suggest some other specific designs.
well-fitted, wood-to-wood joint. That is well accepted.
Some people have tried various substitutes for epoxy in stitch & glue
boatbuilding. Although there have been some short term successes in
small boats, I am not aware of any substitutes for epoxy that have
been generally accepted for these joints where the wood surfaces are
not well mated.
You need to choose your catboat design to suit the glue you want to
use. I would not build Bolger's Bob Cat, aka Tiny Cat, using any glue
other than epoxy. There are catboat designs of just about every size
that can be built without epoxy. The original Beetle Cat, for example,
may have no glue at all. William Garden's Tom Cat could be built with
glues other than epoxy.
If you elaborate on what sort of boat you want, and what your skills
are, we can suggest some other specific designs.
Resorcinal is a very strong glue, but it requires very tight joints and
even, fairly strong pressure. The last time I messed with it was rebuilding
the center section of the wing on a Fairchild PT-19 (I was a helper) and to
laminate several sections of thin plywood, it was necessary to drive (and
subsequently pull) a nail every square inch! If you want to build a boat
using plywood panels on a frame, resorcinol is a perfectly acceptable glue.
If you want to build using traditional lapstrake or carvel construction, you
need to use mechanical fasteners. And if you want to fiberglass sheathing,
you need to use either epoxy or polyester resin.
JohnT
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
davy riggs
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 5:39 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] replace epoxy with resorcinal??
There may be a few folk who become sensitive to
polyurethane (although I haven't personally heard of
any) but here's the thing: epoxy is CARCINOGENIC!
Also resorcinol is not suitable for adhering
fiberglass. Remember the clamping pressure I
mentioned? And if one DID use it for that, the volume
of glue would be stupendous and the stuff is REALLY
EXPENSIVE. Not a realistic method.
I would get Payson's book (whichever one applies best
to your project) and use his method. It happens to be
the cheapest and at least we know it works.
Dave
--- "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@verizon. <mailto:wetherillc%40verizon.net> net> wrote:
brother. -Artemus Ward
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
even, fairly strong pressure. The last time I messed with it was rebuilding
the center section of the wing on a Fairchild PT-19 (I was a helper) and to
laminate several sections of thin plywood, it was necessary to drive (and
subsequently pull) a nail every square inch! If you want to build a boat
using plywood panels on a frame, resorcinol is a perfectly acceptable glue.
If you want to build using traditional lapstrake or carvel construction, you
need to use mechanical fasteners. And if you want to fiberglass sheathing,
you need to use either epoxy or polyester resin.
JohnT
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
davy riggs
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 5:39 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] replace epoxy with resorcinal??
There may be a few folk who become sensitive to
polyurethane (although I haven't personally heard of
any) but here's the thing: epoxy is CARCINOGENIC!
Also resorcinol is not suitable for adhering
fiberglass. Remember the clamping pressure I
mentioned? And if one DID use it for that, the volume
of glue would be stupendous and the stuff is REALLY
EXPENSIVE. Not a realistic method.
I would get Payson's book (whichever one applies best
to your project) and use his method. It happens to be
the cheapest and at least we know it works.
Dave
--- "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@verizon. <mailto:wetherillc%40verizon.net> net> wrote:
> I don't know if resourcinol will hold glass orI have given two cousins to war and I stand ready to sacrifice my wife's
> polyester cloth. Harold
> Payson discusses its use in building instant boats
> for bonding wooden
> components together. I do know that it is a
> "sensitizing" adhesive. I
> hear anecdotes about people who have worked around
> it for years being
> unable to work with plywood. I believe polyurethane
> has a similar effect.
>
> Chris
>
> bill shamblin wrote:
> > builders,
> >
> > allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of
> suiting and gloving
> > to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make
> adequate wood joints with
> > resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have
> polyester or
> > vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in
> advance for any
> > help.
> >
> > bill in nc
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
brother. -Artemus Ward
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon is correct on this one. Resorcinol was used a lot in boatbuilding.
It does granulate and fail over time. My latest reminder of this is a
client who's restoring a Cheoy Lee Frisco Flyer. The original masts
were a hollow rectangle, glued up (according to the factory) with
resorcinol. When they pulled the 40 year old stick, it got bumped and
some of the glue lines failed, just as Jon describes. The PO decided
not to try to salvage it (though I think it could have been), so he
chopped it into 3 lengths and stored it inside the boat. We're talking
now about what type of adhesive to use for his new stick.
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with
potatoes" -- Douglas Adams
**************
It does granulate and fail over time. My latest reminder of this is a
client who's restoring a Cheoy Lee Frisco Flyer. The original masts
were a hollow rectangle, glued up (according to the factory) with
resorcinol. When they pulled the 40 year old stick, it got bumped and
some of the glue lines failed, just as Jon describes. The PO decided
not to try to salvage it (though I think it could have been), so he
chopped it into 3 lengths and stored it inside the boat. We're talking
now about what type of adhesive to use for his new stick.
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with
potatoes" -- Douglas Adams
**************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
>
> No and the Forest Products Testing Lab also talks about the failings of
> resorcinal over time. The glue itself cracking when the joint is
> stressed. Weldwood also gets brittle with time and shows a cristalen
> fracture. This is why epoxy made for glueing joints is more elastic
> then epoxy made for glassing and coating.
>
> Jon
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "titanicslim" <titanicslim@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure that is correct, and the main reason a resorcinol joint must
> > be very strongly clamped. It is nothing at all like epoxy and other
> > resins. (Which reminds me: might the failed joints you mention
> > sometimes in fact be plastic resin glue- PRG? Weldwood.)
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@> wrote:
> > >> resorcinal gets brittle over time. The same reason old chair
> joints
> > > fail over time.
> > >
> > > Jon
> >
>
No and the Forest Products Testing Lab also talks about the failings of
resorcinal over time. The glue itself cracking when the joint is
stressed. Weldwood also gets brittle with time and shows a cristalen
fracture. This is why epoxy made for glueing joints is more elastic
then epoxy made for glassing and coating.
Jon
resorcinal over time. The glue itself cracking when the joint is
stressed. Weldwood also gets brittle with time and shows a cristalen
fracture. This is why epoxy made for glueing joints is more elastic
then epoxy made for glassing and coating.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "titanicslim" <titanicslim@...> wrote:
>
> I'm sure that is correct, and the main reason a resorcinol joint must
> be very strongly clamped. It is nothing at all like epoxy and other
> resins. (Which reminds me: might the failed joints you mention
> sometimes in fact be plastic resin glue- PRG? Weldwood.)
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@> wrote:
> >> resorcinal gets brittle over time. The same reason old chair
joints
> > fail over time.
> >
> > Jon
>
I'm sure that is correct, and the main reason a resorcinol joint must
be very strongly clamped. It is nothing at all like epoxy and other
resins. (Which reminds me: might the failed joints you mention
sometimes in fact be plastic resin glue- PRG? Weldwood.)
be very strongly clamped. It is nothing at all like epoxy and other
resins. (Which reminds me: might the failed joints you mention
sometimes in fact be plastic resin glue- PRG? Weldwood.)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
>> resorcinal gets brittle over time. The same reason old chair joints
> fail over time.
>
> Jon
The Lightning I am restoring had all the laminations and joints glued
with resorcinal and screwed togather. Built in 62 and stored indoors
for the last 6 years. Nearly every joint the glue had failed because
resorcinal gets brittle over time. The same reason old chair joints
fail over time.
Jon
with resorcinal and screwed togather. Built in 62 and stored indoors
for the last 6 years. Nearly every joint the glue had failed because
resorcinal gets brittle over time. The same reason old chair joints
fail over time.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, davy riggs <titanicslim@...> wrote:
>
>
> There may be a few folk who become sensitive to
> polyurethane (although I haven't personally heard of
> any) but here's the thing: epoxy is CARCINOGENIC!
>
> Also resorcinol is not suitable for adhering
> fiberglass. Remember the clamping pressure I
> mentioned? And if one DID use it for that, the volume
> of glue would be stupendous and the stuff is REALLY
> EXPENSIVE. Not a realistic method.
>
> I would get Payson's book (whichever one applies best
> to your project) and use his method. It happens to be
> the cheapest and at least we know it works.
>
> Dave
>
>
> --- "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> <wetherillc@...> wrote:
>
> > I don't know if resourcinol will hold glass or
> > polyester cloth. Harold
> > Payson discusses its use in building instant boats
> > for bonding wooden
> > components together. I do know that it is a
> > "sensitizing" adhesive. I
> > hear anecdotes about people who have worked around
> > it for years being
> > unable to work with plywood. I believe polyurethane
> > has a similar effect.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > bill shamblin wrote:
> > > builders,
> > >
> > > allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of
> > suiting and gloving
> > > to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make
> > adequate wood joints with
> > > resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have
> > polyester or
> > > vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in
> > advance for any
> > > help.
> > >
> > > bill in nc
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
> I have given two cousins to war and I stand ready to sacrifice my
wife's brother. -Artemus Ward
>
There may be a few folk who become sensitive to
polyurethane (although I haven't personally heard of
any) but here's the thing: epoxy is CARCINOGENIC!
Also resorcinol is not suitable for adhering
fiberglass. Remember the clamping pressure I
mentioned? And if one DID use it for that, the volume
of glue would be stupendous and the stuff is REALLY
EXPENSIVE. Not a realistic method.
I would get Payson's book (whichever one applies best
to your project) and use his method. It happens to be
the cheapest and at least we know it works.
Dave
--- "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
polyurethane (although I haven't personally heard of
any) but here's the thing: epoxy is CARCINOGENIC!
Also resorcinol is not suitable for adhering
fiberglass. Remember the clamping pressure I
mentioned? And if one DID use it for that, the volume
of glue would be stupendous and the stuff is REALLY
EXPENSIVE. Not a realistic method.
I would get Payson's book (whichever one applies best
to your project) and use his method. It happens to be
the cheapest and at least we know it works.
Dave
--- "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
> I don't know if resourcinol will hold glass orI have given two cousins to war and I stand ready to sacrifice my wife's brother. -Artemus Ward
> polyester cloth. Harold
> Payson discusses its use in building instant boats
> for bonding wooden
> components together. I do know that it is a
> "sensitizing" adhesive. I
> hear anecdotes about people who have worked around
> it for years being
> unable to work with plywood. I believe polyurethane
> has a similar effect.
>
> Chris
>
> bill shamblin wrote:
> > builders,
> >
> > allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of
> suiting and gloving
> > to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make
> adequate wood joints with
> > resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have
> polyester or
> > vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in
> advance for any
> > help.
> >
> > bill in nc
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Boats were built for thousands of years before epoxy and fiberglass
were invented.
They achieved strength using mechanical fasteners, nails, screws and
bolts. (Still a good idea for important joint, even if you use epoxy
glue.) The planking can be made very waterproof using caulk in the
seams. The decks were often waterproofed with a skin of canvas sealed
with oil paint.
On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
were invented.
They achieved strength using mechanical fasteners, nails, screws and
bolts. (Still a good idea for important joint, even if you use epoxy
glue.) The planking can be made very waterproof using caulk in the
seams. The decks were often waterproofed with a skin of canvas sealed
with oil paint.
On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
> I don't know if resourcinol will hold glass or polyester cloth. Harold
> Payson discusses its use in building instant boats for bonding wooden
> components together. I do know that it is a "sensitizing" adhesive. I
> hear anecdotes about people who have worked around it for years being
> unable to work with plywood. I believe polyurethane has a similar effect.
>
> Chris
>
> bill shamblin wrote:
>> builders,
>>
>> allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and gloving
>> to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood joints with
>> resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester or
>> vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for any
>> help.
>>
>> bill in nc
I don't know if resourcinol will hold glass or polyester cloth. Harold
Payson discusses its use in building instant boats for bonding wooden
components together. I do know that it is a "sensitizing" adhesive. I
hear anecdotes about people who have worked around it for years being
unable to work with plywood. I believe polyurethane has a similar effect.
Chris
bill shamblin wrote:
Payson discusses its use in building instant boats for bonding wooden
components together. I do know that it is a "sensitizing" adhesive. I
hear anecdotes about people who have worked around it for years being
unable to work with plywood. I believe polyurethane has a similar effect.
Chris
bill shamblin wrote:
> builders,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and gloving
> to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood joints with
> resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester or
> vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for any
> help.
>
> bill in nc
>
>
>
I was recently lucky enough to spend an afternoon being taken around one
of the larger marine timber merchants in the UK (Robbins in Bristol, for
those Brits on here), in the company of a bunch of marine surveyors and
other surveying students like myself. The MD there mentioned that they
stocked a product called Balcotan (at least in the UK and Europe) - a
dark brown, waterproof, one-part polyurethane (I think, might have to
double-check, but it's definitely not epoxy-based), that has some
gap-filling properties (though not as good as thickened epoxy). I've
heard it recommended by a few people for strip-planking and general
woodwork, I imagine it'd be suitable for gluing together a boat that
would later be sheathed in vinylester or polyester resin (I'd recommend
vinylester if you can afford it),
Dan.
bill shamblin wrote:
----------
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release Date: 24/10/2008 18:08
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of the larger marine timber merchants in the UK (Robbins in Bristol, for
those Brits on here), in the company of a bunch of marine surveyors and
other surveying students like myself. The MD there mentioned that they
stocked a product called Balcotan (at least in the UK and Europe) - a
dark brown, waterproof, one-part polyurethane (I think, might have to
double-check, but it's definitely not epoxy-based), that has some
gap-filling properties (though not as good as thickened epoxy). I've
heard it recommended by a few people for strip-planking and general
woodwork, I imagine it'd be suitable for gluing together a boat that
would later be sheathed in vinylester or polyester resin (I'd recommend
vinylester if you can afford it),
Dan.
bill shamblin wrote:
>----------
> builders,
>
> allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and gloving
> to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood joints with
> resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester or
> vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for any
> help.
>
> bill in nc
>
>
----------
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release Date: 24/10/2008 18:08
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
Resorcinol will also require tight joints clamped tightly. The Navy
required 150lb./sq.in. on their boats. That will make as near a
permanent bond as you can get with glue, and is what you want below
the waterline or if the boat is not to be dried out frequently.
Weldwood, on the other hand, is not to be considered an absolutely
permanent bond. I would use it for above-the-waterline stuff.
Polyurethane glue (Gorilla Glue) is also good. I used to get it in
European health-food stores before that; it was introduced as a safe
alternative to epoxy. Nowadays you can get off-brand stuff for much
less than Gorilla Glue costs, and it seems to work just as well.
Dynamite Payson says he has always used Weldwood. I don't like
laminating resin nearly as well as epoxy but it will do the job, and
cheaper. If I didn't care too much about appearance I would consider
hiring someone to do all my fiberglass work. I hate it so very, very
much...
Which catboat?
Dave
>Hi, Bill
> Weldwood is all my father ever used as a boatbuilder cause thats all
> they had. The joints have to be tight and you have to clamp. He built
> up glued up masts that lasted over thirty years to my knowledge.
> Titebond III is what I use a lot these days, supposed to be waterproof.
Resorcinol will also require tight joints clamped tightly. The Navy
required 150lb./sq.in. on their boats. That will make as near a
permanent bond as you can get with glue, and is what you want below
the waterline or if the boat is not to be dried out frequently.
Weldwood, on the other hand, is not to be considered an absolutely
permanent bond. I would use it for above-the-waterline stuff.
Polyurethane glue (Gorilla Glue) is also good. I used to get it in
European health-food stores before that; it was introduced as a safe
alternative to epoxy. Nowadays you can get off-brand stuff for much
less than Gorilla Glue costs, and it seems to work just as well.
Dynamite Payson says he has always used Weldwood. I don't like
laminating resin nearly as well as epoxy but it will do the job, and
cheaper. If I didn't care too much about appearance I would consider
hiring someone to do all my fiberglass work. I hate it so very, very
much...
Which catboat?
Dave
> HJdead horses
>
> bill shamblin wrote:
> > builders,
> >
> > allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and gloving
> > to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood joints with
> > resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester or
> > vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for any
> > help.
> >
> > bill in nc
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Weldwood is all my father ever used as a boatbuilder cause thats all
they had. The joints have to be tight and you have to clamp. He built
up glued up masts that lasted over thirty years to my knowledge.
Titebond III is what I use a lot these days, supposed to be waterproof.
HJ
bill shamblin wrote:
they had. The joints have to be tight and you have to clamp. He built
up glued up masts that lasted over thirty years to my knowledge.
Titebond III is what I use a lot these days, supposed to be waterproof.
HJ
bill shamblin wrote:
> builders,
>
> allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and gloving
> to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood joints with
> resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester or
> vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for any
> help.
>
> bill in nc
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
builders,
allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and gloving
to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood joints with
resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester or
vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for any
help.
bill in nc
allergic to epoxy from previous boats, and wary of suiting and gloving
to build a catboat, i wonder if i can make adequate wood joints with
resorcinol?? the glued-together boat would have polyester or
vinlyester glass cloth inside and out?? thanks in advance for any
help.
bill in nc