Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...
Technically, it's perfectly legal to take lines and reproduce a hull.
Anyone who doesn't make a backup copy of plans to work from is just
silly.
Anyone who doesn't make a backup copy of plans to work from is just
silly.
On Nov 12, 2008, at 10:08 AM, rmdeming wrote:
>http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2008/11/cory-doctorow-why-i-
> copyfight.html.
=== craig o'donnell
dadadata@...
Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've had good success with using an aerosol spray protectant. While it
might slightly darken the paper - not a bad thing if you read them in
natural sunlight - the paper is rendered moisture and dirt resistant.
It's not perfect but gives you a chance to recover from an OOPS moment
like spilling coffee on the plans. For an example of this type of
product see
http://www.lyndist.com/lynproductsheets/sec_aerosols/acrylic_coating.htm
orhttp://tinyurl.com/5hlzuo
Bryant
might slightly darken the paper - not a bad thing if you read them in
natural sunlight - the paper is rendered moisture and dirt resistant.
It's not perfect but gives you a chance to recover from an OOPS moment
like spilling coffee on the plans. For an example of this type of
product see
http://www.lyndist.com/lynproductsheets/sec_aerosols/acrylic_coating.htm
orhttp://tinyurl.com/5hlzuo
Bryant
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rmdeming" <rmdeming@...> wrote:
>
> Sound like a good topic for a poll.
>
> Personally, I build from the originals, but see nothing wrong with
> making a working copy so that you have the original just in case you
> cna not see the dimension through the coffee rings ;-)
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pierce Nichols" <rocketgeek@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Depends on the year the boat was designed. If it was designed
> before the
> > passage of (IIRC) the Sonny Bono Copyright Act (which, in general,
> is
> > nothing but corporate welfare for Disney et al) in the mid 1990s,
> it is
> > unprotected. If afterwards, it is protected. Now, if you think
> about it,
> > this makes a certain amount of sense -- Steve has the first part
> precisely
> > right, and in addition, relatively few people can build a boat from
> a raw
> > set of lines, and those who can have to do most of the designer's
> task in
> > order to do so.
> >
> > The real problem with copyright law, as now conceived in the US, is
> a larger
> > version of the problem Steve identified with advances in hull
> shape. Cory
> > Doctorow goes over it better and in far more detail than I'm up to
> here:
> >http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2008/11/cory-doctorow-why-i-
> copyfight.html.
> >
> > -p
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Steven Rose <paradox_4@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the
> local
> > > Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own
> plans.
> > > Perhaps those lines happen to be from a Bolger Boat, then it
> seems to be
> > > all
> > > ok! Yet to copy a piece of paper with the same information is a
> great evil
> > > to many in the boating world. I suspect if Bolger or anyone else
> had never
> > > taken a line or an idea off someone else's design in the first
> place we
> > > would still be building Dugout Canoes and Pot boats. Law is
> different in
> > > every country anyway so it really doesn't apply, I think using
> common sense
> > > and respect is more important. Don't sell Bolgers plans for
> profit, give
> > > him
> > > recognition for the great work he has done. Staples, just has
> blanket rules
> > > that I suspect only part of the staff follow anyway, go to five
> Staples and
> > > I suspect you would have the copies.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of
> > > John Kohnen
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:06 AM
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...
> > >
> > > There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own
> use, as
> > > long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into
> the
> > > notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates
> either,
> > > but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.
> > >
> > > On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:
> > >
> > > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed
> the law.
> > > > Do you want us to be upset too?
> > >
> > > --
> > > John <jkohnen@>
> > > It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
> > > at all. <James Thurber>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
> flogging dead
> > > horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax:
> > > (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo!
> > > Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
> > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date:
> 11/9/2008
> > > 2:14 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
> flogging dead
> > > horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax:
> > > (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo!
> > > Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:08 AM, rmdeming <rmdeming@...> wrote:
the drawings is much more important during the first parts of the
build. By the time I get to the latter parts, when the drawing are
faded, tattered and unreadable...then the drawing is not so important.
> Sound like a good topic for a poll.Personally, I build from the originals, and a funny thing... reading
>
> Personally, I build from the originals,
the drawings is much more important during the first parts of the
build. By the time I get to the latter parts, when the drawing are
faded, tattered and unreadable...then the drawing is not so important.
Sound like a good topic for a poll.
Personally, I build from the originals, but see nothing wrong with
making a working copy so that you have the original just in case you
cna not see the dimension through the coffee rings ;-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pierce Nichols" <rocketgeek@...>
wrote:
Personally, I build from the originals, but see nothing wrong with
making a working copy so that you have the original just in case you
cna not see the dimension through the coffee rings ;-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pierce Nichols" <rocketgeek@...>
wrote:
>before the
> Depends on the year the boat was designed. If it was designed
> passage of (IIRC) the Sonny Bono Copyright Act (which, in general,is
> nothing but corporate welfare for Disney et al) in the mid 1990s,it is
> unprotected. If afterwards, it is protected. Now, if you thinkabout it,
> this makes a certain amount of sense -- Steve has the first partprecisely
> right, and in addition, relatively few people can build a boat froma raw
> set of lines, and those who can have to do most of the designer'stask in
> order to do so.a larger
>
> The real problem with copyright law, as now conceived in the US, is
> version of the problem Steve identified with advances in hullshape. Cory
> Doctorow goes over it better and in far more detail than I'm up tohere:
>http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2008/11/cory-doctorow-why-i-copyfight.html.
>local
> -p
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Steven Rose <paradox_4@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the
> > Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their ownplans.
> > Perhaps those lines happen to be from a Bolger Boat, then itseems to be
> > allgreat evil
> > ok! Yet to copy a piece of paper with the same information is a
> > to many in the boating world. I suspect if Bolger or anyone elsehad never
> > taken a line or an idea off someone else's design in the firstplace we
> > would still be building Dugout Canoes and Pot boats. Law isdifferent in
> > every country anyway so it really doesn't apply, I think usingcommon sense
> > and respect is more important. Don't sell Bolgers plans forprofit, give
> > himblanket rules
> > recognition for the great work he has done. Staples, just has
> > that I suspect only part of the staff follow anyway, go to fiveStaples and
> > I suspect you would have the copies.Behalf Of
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
> > John Kohnenuse, as
> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:06 AM
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...
> >
> > There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own
> > long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits intothe
> > notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirateseither,
> > but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.the law.
> >
> > On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:
> >
> > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed
> > > Do you want us to be upset too?flogging dead
> >
> > --
> > John <jkohnen@...>
> > It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
> > at all. <James Thurber>
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
> > horsesposts
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax:
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> > (978) 282-1349Yahoo!
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Groups Links11/9/2008
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date:
> > 2:14 PMflogging dead
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
> > horsesposts
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax:
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> > (978) 282-1349Yahoo!
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Rose" <paradox_4@...> wrote:
Title V: Vessel Hull Design Protection Act
DMCA Title V added sections 1301 through 1332 to add a sui generis
protection for boat hull designs. Boat hull designs were not previously
considered covered under copyright law because they are useful articles
whose form cannot be cleanly separated from their function.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html>
In brief, designs must be registered within two years of first
publication to receive protection that lasts for ten years. Older
designs or those that are not registered are unprotected. Boats may be
built freely from published plans or duplicated from existing hulls
unless they are registered in accordance with this law.
Construction of hulls from unpublished plans supplied by architects to
clients is governed by contract, not by copyright law. The contract
will typically say that the plans remain the property of the architect
and that their use is licensed for construction of only one hull.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the localThe Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes the answer quite explicit:
> Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans.
Title V: Vessel Hull Design Protection Act
DMCA Title V added sections 1301 through 1332 to add a sui generis
protection for boat hull designs. Boat hull designs were not previously
considered covered under copyright law because they are useful articles
whose form cannot be cleanly separated from their function.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html>
In brief, designs must be registered within two years of first
publication to receive protection that lasts for ten years. Older
designs or those that are not registered are unprotected. Boats may be
built freely from published plans or duplicated from existing hulls
unless they are registered in accordance with this law.
Construction of hulls from unpublished plans supplied by architects to
clients is governed by contract, not by copyright law. The contract
will typically say that the plans remain the property of the architect
and that their use is licensed for construction of only one hull.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Rose" <paradox_4@...> wrote:
Title V: Vessel Hull Design Protection Act
DMCA Title V added sections 1301 through 1332 to add a sui generis
protection for boat hull designs. Boat hull designs were not previously
considered covered under copyright law because they are useful articles
whose form cannot be cleanly separated from their function.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html>
In brief, designs must be registered within two years of first
publication to receive protection that lasts for ten years. Older
designs or those that are not registered are unprotected. Boats may be
built freely from published plans or duplicated from existing hulls
unless they are registered in accordance with this law.
Construction of hulls from unpublished plans supplied by architects to
clients is governed by contract, not by copyright law. The contract
will typically say that the plans remain the property of the architect
and that their use is licensed for construction of only one hull.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the localThe Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes the answer quite explicit:
> Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans.
Title V: Vessel Hull Design Protection Act
DMCA Title V added sections 1301 through 1332 to add a sui generis
protection for boat hull designs. Boat hull designs were not previously
considered covered under copyright law because they are useful articles
whose form cannot be cleanly separated from their function.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html>
In brief, designs must be registered within two years of first
publication to receive protection that lasts for ten years. Older
designs or those that are not registered are unprotected. Boats may be
built freely from published plans or duplicated from existing hulls
unless they are registered in accordance with this law.
Construction of hulls from unpublished plans supplied by architects to
clients is governed by contract, not by copyright law. The contract
will typically say that the plans remain the property of the architect
and that their use is licensed for construction of only one hull.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Depends on the year the boat was designed. If it was designed before the
passage of (IIRC) the Sonny Bono Copyright Act (which, in general, is
nothing but corporate welfare for Disney et al) in the mid 1990s, it is
unprotected. If afterwards, it is protected. Now, if you think about it,
this makes a certain amount of sense -- Steve has the first part precisely
right, and in addition, relatively few people can build a boat from a raw
set of lines, and those who can have to do most of the designer's task in
order to do so.
The real problem with copyright law, as now conceived in the US, is a larger
version of the problem Steve identified with advances in hull shape. Cory
Doctorow goes over it better and in far more detail than I'm up to here:
http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2008/11/cory-doctorow-why-i-copyfight.html.
-p
passage of (IIRC) the Sonny Bono Copyright Act (which, in general, is
nothing but corporate welfare for Disney et al) in the mid 1990s, it is
unprotected. If afterwards, it is protected. Now, if you think about it,
this makes a certain amount of sense -- Steve has the first part precisely
right, and in addition, relatively few people can build a boat from a raw
set of lines, and those who can have to do most of the designer's task in
order to do so.
The real problem with copyright law, as now conceived in the US, is a larger
version of the problem Steve identified with advances in hull shape. Cory
Doctorow goes over it better and in far more detail than I'm up to here:
http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2008/11/cory-doctorow-why-i-copyfight.html.
-p
On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Steven Rose <paradox_4@...> wrote:
>
> Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the local
> Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans.
> Perhaps those lines happen to be from a Bolger Boat, then it seems to be
> all
> ok! Yet to copy a piece of paper with the same information is a great evil
> to many in the boating world. I suspect if Bolger or anyone else had never
> taken a line or an idea off someone else's design in the first place we
> would still be building Dugout Canoes and Pot boats. Law is different in
> every country anyway so it really doesn't apply, I think using common sense
> and respect is more important. Don't sell Bolgers plans for profit, give
> him
> recognition for the great work he has done. Staples, just has blanket rules
> that I suspect only part of the staff follow anyway, go to five Staples and
> I suspect you would have the copies.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> John Kohnen
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:06 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...
>
> There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own use, as
> long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into the
> notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates either,
> but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.
>
> On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:
>
> As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
> > Do you want us to be upset too?
>
> --
> John <jkohnen@...>
> It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
> at all. <James Thurber>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
> 2:14 PM
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the local
Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans.
Perhaps those lines happen to be from a Bolger Boat, then it seems to be all
ok! Yet to copy a piece of paper with the same information is a great evil
to many in the boating world. I suspect if Bolger or anyone else had never
taken a line or an idea off someone else's design in the first place we
would still be building Dugout Canoes and Pot boats. Law is different in
every country anyway so it really doesn't apply, I think using common sense
and respect is more important. Don't sell Bolgers plans for profit, give him
recognition for the great work he has done. Staples, just has blanket rules
that I suspect only part of the staff follow anyway, go to five Staples and
I suspect you would have the copies.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
John Kohnen
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:06 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...
There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own use, as
long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into the
notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates either,
but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.
Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans.
Perhaps those lines happen to be from a Bolger Boat, then it seems to be all
ok! Yet to copy a piece of paper with the same information is a great evil
to many in the boating world. I suspect if Bolger or anyone else had never
taken a line or an idea off someone else's design in the first place we
would still be building Dugout Canoes and Pot boats. Law is different in
every country anyway so it really doesn't apply, I think using common sense
and respect is more important. Don't sell Bolgers plans for profit, give him
recognition for the great work he has done. Staples, just has blanket rules
that I suspect only part of the staff follow anyway, go to five Staples and
I suspect you would have the copies.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
John Kohnen
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:06 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...
There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own use, as
long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into the
notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates either,
but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.
On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:
As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
> Do you want us to be upset too?
--
John <jkohnen@...>
It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
at all. <James Thurber>
------------------------------------
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
Groups Links
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG -http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
2:14 PM
So what magic formula does Staples apply to determine "fair use"? Has
anyone bothered to contact Bolger or any other plans seller to encourage
them to add a "fair use" statement to the plans? Nope, I thought not.
Far better to castigate the big nasty corporation for attempting, as
best they can, to follow the rules...
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
North East, MD.
“Capt’n Pauley’s Boat Repairs & Upgrades”
book at www.captnpauley.com
home.comcast.net/~pesterle/
John Kohnen wrote:
anyone bothered to contact Bolger or any other plans seller to encourage
them to add a "fair use" statement to the plans? Nope, I thought not.
Far better to castigate the big nasty corporation for attempting, as
best they can, to follow the rules...
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
North East, MD.
“Capt’n Pauley’s Boat Repairs & Upgrades”
book at www.captnpauley.com
home.comcast.net/~pesterle/
John Kohnen wrote:
> Making copies for your own use in the shop is surely "fair use." I think
> Staples went too far.
>
> On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:44:12 -0800, Paul E wrote:
>
>
>> I applaud Staples for upholding copyright law and protecting
>> intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating "how-to" videos
>> because they were getting ripped and copied. The blueprint place did you
>> favor but what's to stop them from assisting a "Common Sense" style rip
>> off? I'll have to stop shopping at Office Depot and start shopping at
>> Staples...
>>
>
>
There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own use, as
long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into the
notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates either,
but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.
long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into the
notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates either,
but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.
On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:
As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
> Do you want us to be upset too?
--
John <jkohnen@...>
It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
at all. <James Thurber>
Making copies for your own use in the shop is surely "fair use." I think
Staples went too far.
Staples went too far.
On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:44:12 -0800, Paul E wrote:
> I applaud Staples for upholding copyright law and protecting
> intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating "how-to" videos
> because they were getting ripped and copied. The blueprint place did you
> favor but what's to stop them from assisting a "Common Sense" style rip
> off? I'll have to stop shopping at Office Depot and start shopping at
> Staples...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
Why should we take advice on sex from the Pope? If he knows
anything about it, he shouldn't. <G. B. Shaw>
Paul,
I have some how-to stuff on CD's, and they have a security lock on them
so they can't be copied. Maybe if you went to burnin'-disc's? I
suppose someone will find a way around that, or has...
Garry
I have some how-to stuff on CD's, and they have a security lock on them
so they can't be copied. Maybe if you went to burnin'-disc's? I
suppose someone will find a way around that, or has...
Garry
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Paul Esterle <pesterle@...> wrote:
>
> I applaud Staples for upholding copyright law and protecting
> intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating "how-to" videos
> because they were getting ripped and copied. The blueprint place did
you
> favor but what's to stop them from assisting a "Common Sense" style
rip
> off? I'll have to stop shopping at Office Depot and start shopping at
> Staples...
>
> Paul Esterle
> Freelance Boating Writer
> Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
> North East, MD.
> "Capt'n Pauley's Boat Repairs & Upgrades"
> book at www.captnpauley.com
> home.comcast.net/~pesterle/
>
>
>
> Gene Tehansky wrote:
> >
> > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
> > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
> > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
> > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
> > What have they prevented? If I wanted to pull a "Common Sense
> > Designs" and run off copies and sell them I'm sure I could work that
> > out without their help. So, Staples is now on that list I have just
> > for their kind (and that makes me unhappy because I liked Staples).
> > But the good news is, I got superior copies from a blueprint firm
run
> > by a young lady who used to live at a marina. The copies are sharper
> > and more precise than Staples ever were, she did them while I
waited,
> > and the conversation was all about boats. She had 2 machines, one
> > scanned and one printed. Inbetween she manipulated the photos on a
> > computer. Way more sophisticated than a copier. So should I say
> > thanks to Staples? Nah!
> >
> > This must be a new policy because they never asked before if what I
> > wanted copied was copyrighted. And the drawings were stamped
> > copyrighted. I need to look at my single handed schooner plans.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Gene T.
> >
> >
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What he wanted to do, make a backup or working copy, is 100% legal. Staples
was following an extremist interpretation of copyright law that has no basis
in statute or case law.
-p
was following an extremist interpretation of copyright law that has no basis
in statute or case law.
-p
On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:31 AM, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
> > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
> > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
> > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
> > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
>
>
> As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
> Do you want us to be upset too?
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.The "law" is not so simple.
> Do you want us to be upset too?
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
This is my opinion, of course, but I believe that backup photocopy
duplication of the plans to protect the original so you can scribble
on the copies them during construction is plainly 'fair use' and would
be allowed per law.
You know this same thing is seen in the homebuilt aircraft scene as well. Most designers say in their plans that you are allowed to make a SHOP copy of the plans. I don't care how hard you try plans get mucked up.
I have also seen full knockoffs of full aircraft kits... Zenithair's 701 is a prime example
So what can we do as a builder? Only deal with the designer that holds the design rights or those that hold the rights to sell the plans.
It may also be a good idea for the designer to state that you can make a shop copy, that way things are covered.
Blessings Krissie
I have also seen full knockoffs of full aircraft kits... Zenithair's 701 is a prime example
So what can we do as a builder? Only deal with the designer that holds the design rights or those that hold the rights to sell the plans.
It may also be a good idea for the designer to state that you can make a shop copy, that way things are covered.
Blessings Krissie
--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Gene Tehansky <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
I'm only upset because I've used them before with no issues and it
was a royal pain in the arse to find the other place. What you do
with Staples is not really my concern. What do you do when you build
a boat from plans? Do you just use the originals in the shop? Do
you think I am in the wrong to work from copies?
Sincerely,
Gene T.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mednak2000 wrote:
around with video and fair use a little. One of the problems is that to
make a copy of a drawing would seem to come under fair use laws. Seems
like you should be able to write and sign a paper, give it to Staples
saying what you intend to do with it and as long as you don't intend to
give it away or sell it you would be within your right of fair use. If
you buy a set of plans you are not buying a patented new kind of paper
with a new kind of laws. You are buying the right to build one boat
represented by the lines and figures on the drawing.
A simular thing is to copy a piece of music onto a CD that also
comes under fair use as long as you don't sell it or give it away. All
you have to do is show you bought it in the first place.
The problem is, government has passed a law saying that Walmart ,
Staples or anyone else copying for money can not copy anything
copyrighted and that would seem to have nothing to do with copyright
infringement.
This is my opinion for what it's worth and for what I have
charged for it.
Doug
>I am by no means able to write with any authority but I have fooled
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris
> Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
> > > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO!
> Seems
> > > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does
> that
> > > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as
> proof.
> >
> >
> > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the
> law.
> > Do you want us to be upset too?
> >
> I understand if someone was going to copy and sell plans,but i should
> be able to copy plans for my own use.
>
>
around with video and fair use a little. One of the problems is that to
make a copy of a drawing would seem to come under fair use laws. Seems
like you should be able to write and sign a paper, give it to Staples
saying what you intend to do with it and as long as you don't intend to
give it away or sell it you would be within your right of fair use. If
you buy a set of plans you are not buying a patented new kind of paper
with a new kind of laws. You are buying the right to build one boat
represented by the lines and figures on the drawing.
A simular thing is to copy a piece of music onto a CD that also
comes under fair use as long as you don't sell it or give it away. All
you have to do is show you bought it in the first place.
The problem is, government has passed a law saying that Walmart ,
Staples or anyone else copying for money can not copy anything
copyrighted and that would seem to have nothing to do with copyright
infringement.
This is my opinion for what it's worth and for what I have
charged for it.
Doug
I am a b to b magazine publisher, so I deal with copyright issues all the time (though I am not an expert in this very specific area concerning boat plans).
There are provisions within the copyright laws that allow for making single copies for personal use. Not wanting to get involved in what is a highly technical and very complex area of law, many copy facilities simply have a blanket rule that they will not copy anythingt that has a clearly marked copyright holder. If it were found that those copies were later used to distribute the work more widely, Staples could be found liable.
If you were just getting regular photocopies, then Staples saved you from what could have been a boatbuilding disaster. Photocopiers -- even the good ones --almost never copy at exactly 100%. In my experience, even professional grade copiers reduce the original by about 2%. If you were to try to take measurements off of such copies, you would be significantly off the original measurements. This might be of little consequence for a small open boat, but could prove a major headache in a more complicated project, like Moicro.
Real blue prints do not have this flaw.
I have heard that it is common for boatbuillders to request a second copy of an individual sheet or two of plans, due to the originals being shop stained beyond use. In his book about the boat, the original builder of Bolger's "Blueberry" mentions he did just that. The designer (as did Bolger in this case), will usually offer the replacement copy at a substantial discount.
David C
There are provisions within the copyright laws that allow for making single copies for personal use. Not wanting to get involved in what is a highly technical and very complex area of law, many copy facilities simply have a blanket rule that they will not copy anythingt that has a clearly marked copyright holder. If it were found that those copies were later used to distribute the work more widely, Staples could be found liable.
If you were just getting regular photocopies, then Staples saved you from what could have been a boatbuilding disaster. Photocopiers -- even the good ones --almost never copy at exactly 100%. In my experience, even professional grade copiers reduce the original by about 2%. If you were to try to take measurements off of such copies, you would be significantly off the original measurements. This might be of little consequence for a small open boat, but could prove a major headache in a more complicated project, like Moicro.
Real blue prints do not have this flaw.
I have heard that it is common for boatbuillders to request a second copy of an individual sheet or two of plans, due to the originals being shop stained beyond use. In his book about the boat, the original builder of Bolger's "Blueberry" mentions he did just that. The designer (as did Bolger in this case), will usually offer the replacement copy at a substantial discount.
David C
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
> > > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO!
> Seems
> > > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does
> that
> > > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as
> proof.
> >
> >
> > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the
> law.
> > Do you want us to be upset too?
> >
> I understand if someone was going to copy and sell plans,but i should
> be able to copy plans for my own use.
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
be able to copy plans for my own use.
>Seems
> > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
> > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO!
> > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how doesthat
> > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters asproof.
>law.
>
> As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the
> Do you want us to be upset too?I understand if someone was going to copy and sell plans,but i should
>
be able to copy plans for my own use.
I'm only upset because I've used them before with no issues and it
was a royal pain in the arse to find the other place. What you do
with Staples is not really my concern. What do you do when you build
a boat from plans? Do you just use the originals in the shop? Do
you think I am in the wrong to work from copies?
Sincerely,
Gene T.
was a royal pain in the arse to find the other place. What you do
with Staples is not really my concern. What do you do when you build
a boat from plans? Do you just use the originals in the shop? Do
you think I am in the wrong to work from copies?
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 8 Nov, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Chris Crandall wrote:
> > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
> > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
> > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
> > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
>
> As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the
> law.
> Do you want us to be upset too?
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I couldAs far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
> scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
> I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
> work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
Do you want us to be upset too?
I applaud Staples for upholding copyright law and protecting
intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating "how-to" videos
because they were getting ripped and copied. The blueprint place did you
favor but what's to stop them from assisting a "Common Sense" style rip
off? I'll have to stop shopping at Office Depot and start shopping at
Staples...
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
North East, MD.
“Capt’n Pauley’s Boat Repairs & Upgrades”
book at www.captnpauley.com
home.comcast.net/~pesterle/
Gene Tehansky wrote:
intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating "how-to" videos
because they were getting ripped and copied. The blueprint place did you
favor but what's to stop them from assisting a "Common Sense" style rip
off? I'll have to stop shopping at Office Depot and start shopping at
Staples...
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
North East, MD.
“Capt’n Pauley’s Boat Repairs & Upgrades”
book at www.captnpauley.com
home.comcast.net/~pesterle/
Gene Tehansky wrote:
>
> Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
> scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
> I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
> work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
> What have they prevented? If I wanted to pull a "Common Sense
> Designs" and run off copies and sell them I'm sure I could work that
> out without their help. So, Staples is now on that list I have just
> for their kind (and that makes me unhappy because I liked Staples).
> But the good news is, I got superior copies from a blueprint firm run
> by a young lady who used to live at a marina. The copies are sharper
> and more precise than Staples ever were, she did them while I waited,
> and the conversation was all about boats. She had 2 machines, one
> scanned and one printed. Inbetween she manipulated the photos on a
> computer. Way more sophisticated than a copier. So should I say
> thanks to Staples? Nah!
>
> This must be a new policy because they never asked before if what I
> wanted copied was copyrighted. And the drawings were stamped
> copyrighted. I need to look at my single handed schooner plans.
>
> Sincerely,
> Gene T.
>
>
Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
What have they prevented? If I wanted to pull a "Common Sense
Designs" and run off copies and sell them I'm sure I could work that
out without their help. So, Staples is now on that list I have just
for their kind (and that makes me unhappy because I liked Staples).
But the good news is, I got superior copies from a blueprint firm run
by a young lady who used to live at a marina. The copies are sharper
and more precise than Staples ever were, she did them while I waited,
and the conversation was all about boats. She had 2 machines, one
scanned and one printed. Inbetween she manipulated the photos on a
computer. Way more sophisticated than a copier. So should I say
thanks to Staples? Nah!
This must be a new policy because they never asked before if what I
wanted copied was copyrighted. And the drawings were stamped
copyrighted. I need to look at my single handed schooner plans.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
What have they prevented? If I wanted to pull a "Common Sense
Designs" and run off copies and sell them I'm sure I could work that
out without their help. So, Staples is now on that list I have just
for their kind (and that makes me unhappy because I liked Staples).
But the good news is, I got superior copies from a blueprint firm run
by a young lady who used to live at a marina. The copies are sharper
and more precise than Staples ever were, she did them while I waited,
and the conversation was all about boats. She had 2 machines, one
scanned and one printed. Inbetween she manipulated the photos on a
computer. Way more sophisticated than a copier. So should I say
thanks to Staples? Nah!
This must be a new policy because they never asked before if what I
wanted copied was copyrighted. And the drawings were stamped
copyrighted. I need to look at my single handed schooner plans.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
Nothing wrong with a balance lug hung from an A-mast.
It's been done. One approach was taken by R.B. Roosevelt. Google
"Mary & Lamb" Cheap Pages.
It's been done. One approach was taken by R.B. Roosevelt. Google
"Mary & Lamb" Cheap Pages.
On Oct 30, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Gene Tehansky wrote:
> ,
> I asked Phil about a modification to the mast on the FMS and he
> suggested just using a balanced lug. Your suggestion might have
> complications when sailing down wind. One good thing, I think it
> would remove the post from the center of the cabin going forward. I
> finally decided the boat was just to big for me at this time. I
> currently am bitten by the Micro Navigator, to the point of having
> bought plywood.
>
> Sincerely,
> Gene T.
>
> On 29 Oct, 2008, at 7:31 PM, daschultz2000 wrote:
>
> > Looking at the FMS sail rig, it occurs to me one could build a
> support
> > with two masts and a short crossbar at the top with one guy wire
> > forward and two aft. This would make it possible to tack by just
> > moving the forward attach point of the sail from one side to the
> > other. One would not have to drop the sail and drag it around on the
> > otherside of the mast at each tack.
> >
> > I think I've seen drawings of such a mast. What I saw looked like a
> > higher aspect ratio St.Louis Arch. I believe they were associated
> > with a Bolger design. Can any point me toward such info?
> >
> > Bolger suggests, tacking would be done under power. IMO a small 4
> > stroke running almost constantly while under sail would make for a
> > true motorsailer. The result would be something more versatile and
> > comfortable than Bolger's cartoon of SMS, a 22' motor sailer with a
> > small diesel inboard.
> >
> > The downside I see is the need to add time to break the wishbone
> mast
> > into multiple pieces each time it is struck. It's a good trade
> off, I
> > think. What do you think?
> >
> > I'm looking at trailerable motor/sail cruisers for river and other
> > protected water camp cruising of a couple of days or so. The best in
> > terms of utility is Fast Motor Sailer which is in BWAOM. There
> are as
> > many as 4 other Bolger designs which lend themselves to the
> > application.
> >
> > 1.) Plywood Diesel Cruiser also in BWAOM built as an outboard, and
> > possibly fitted with the FMS sailing gear including the lee board,
> > sail, etc. This is a really handsome boat. It is much more pleasant
> > to look at than FMS, or.......
> >
> > 2.) Utility for Homebuilders from "The Folding Schooner". This 22'
> > plywood inboard may be one of the few Bolger power designs actually
> > uglier than FMS. But it also features very simple construction. I
> > would not include the tunnel. It is very crude and draggy.
> >
> > 3.) Economy Motorsailer from "The Folding Schooner". 25+ footer with
> > an outboard for power. I'd use FMS's sail and offset mount a rudder
> > in place of the oar. This is a nice appearing boat. It would be
> > interesting to take the basic form, and create a multi-chine plywood
> > S&G built version.
> >
> > 4.) Ada, the first FMS. In BWAOM there is a pic in the FMS chapter.
> > It's a 26' Diablo, which is something Bolger probably should have
> done
> > as a straight power boat with a variety of superstructures and
> even an
> > open version.
> >
> > I supposed I missed some others. So, #2 and #3 are 30+ year old
> > designs, and apparently never built. But if ugly is the only reason,
> > FMS wouldn't have been built either.
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
=== craig o'donnell
dadadata@...
Box 232 Betterton Md 21610
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
,
I asked Phil about a modification to the mast on the FMS and he
suggested just using a balanced lug. Your suggestion might have
complications when sailing down wind. One good thing, I think it
would remove the post from the center of the cabin going forward. I
finally decided the boat was just to big for me at this time. I
currently am bitten by the Micro Navigator, to the point of having
bought plywood.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
I asked Phil about a modification to the mast on the FMS and he
suggested just using a balanced lug. Your suggestion might have
complications when sailing down wind. One good thing, I think it
would remove the post from the center of the cabin going forward. I
finally decided the boat was just to big for me at this time. I
currently am bitten by the Micro Navigator, to the point of having
bought plywood.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 29 Oct, 2008, at 7:31 PM, daschultz2000 wrote:
> Looking at the FMS sail rig, it occurs to me one could build a support
> with two masts and a short crossbar at the top with one guy wire
> forward and two aft. This would make it possible to tack by just
> moving the forward attach point of the sail from one side to the
> other. One would not have to drop the sail and drag it around on the
> otherside of the mast at each tack.
>
> I think I've seen drawings of such a mast. What I saw looked like a
> higher aspect ratio St.Louis Arch. I believe they were associated
> with a Bolger design. Can any point me toward such info?
>
> Bolger suggests, tacking would be done under power. IMO a small 4
> stroke running almost constantly while under sail would make for a
> true motorsailer. The result would be something more versatile and
> comfortable than Bolger's cartoon of SMS, a 22' motor sailer with a
> small diesel inboard.
>
> The downside I see is the need to add time to break the wishbone mast
> into multiple pieces each time it is struck. It's a good trade off, I
> think. What do you think?
>
> I'm looking at trailerable motor/sail cruisers for river and other
> protected water camp cruising of a couple of days or so. The best in
> terms of utility is Fast Motor Sailer which is in BWAOM. There are as
> many as 4 other Bolger designs which lend themselves to the
> application.
>
> 1.) Plywood Diesel Cruiser also in BWAOM built as an outboard, and
> possibly fitted with the FMS sailing gear including the lee board,
> sail, etc. This is a really handsome boat. It is much more pleasant
> to look at than FMS, or.......
>
> 2.) Utility for Homebuilders from "The Folding Schooner". This 22'
> plywood inboard may be one of the few Bolger power designs actually
> uglier than FMS. But it also features very simple construction. I
> would not include the tunnel. It is very crude and draggy.
>
> 3.) Economy Motorsailer from "The Folding Schooner". 25+ footer with
> an outboard for power. I'd use FMS's sail and offset mount a rudder
> in place of the oar. This is a nice appearing boat. It would be
> interesting to take the basic form, and create a multi-chine plywood
> S&G built version.
>
> 4.) Ada, the first FMS. In BWAOM there is a pic in the FMS chapter.
> It's a 26' Diablo, which is something Bolger probably should have done
> as a straight power boat with a variety of superstructures and even an
> open version.
>
> I supposed I missed some others. So, #2 and #3 are 30+ year old
> designs, and apparently never built. But if ugly is the only reason,
> FMS wouldn't have been built either.
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This has been discussed at length and can be found in the message archive.
V/R
Chris
daschultz2000 wrote:
V/R
Chris
daschultz2000 wrote:
> Looking at the FMS sail rig, it occurs to me one could build a support[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> with two masts and a short crossbar at the top with one guy wire
> forward and two aft. This would make it possible to tack by just
> moving the forward attach point of the sail from one side to the
> other. One would not have to drop the sail and drag it around on the
> otherside of the mast at each tack.
>
> I think I've seen drawings of such a mast. What I saw looked like a
> higher aspect ratio St.Louis Arch. I believe they were associated
> with a Bolger design. Can any point me toward such info?
>
> Bolger suggests, tacking would be done under power. IMO a small 4
> stroke running almost constantly while under sail would make for a
> true motorsailer. The result would be something more versatile and
> comfortable than Bolger's cartoon of SMS, a 22' motor sailer with a
> small diesel inboard.
>
> The downside I see is the need to add time to break the wishbone mast
> into multiple pieces each time it is struck. It's a good trade off, I
> think. What do you think?
>
> I'm looking at trailerable motor/sail cruisers for river and other
> protected water camp cruising of a couple of days or so. The best in
> terms of utility is Fast Motor Sailer which is in BWAOM. There are as
> many as 4 other Bolger designs which lend themselves to the application.
>
> 1.) Plywood Diesel Cruiser also in BWAOM built as an outboard, and
> possibly fitted with the FMS sailing gear including the lee board,
> sail, etc. This is a really handsome boat. It is much more pleasant
> to look at than FMS, or.......
>
> 2.) Utility for Homebuilders from "The Folding Schooner". This 22'
> plywood inboard may be one of the few Bolger power designs actually
> uglier than FMS. But it also features very simple construction. I
> would not include the tunnel. It is very crude and draggy.
>
> 3.) Economy Motorsailer from "The Folding Schooner". 25+ footer with
> an outboard for power. I'd use FMS's sail and offset mount a rudder
> in place of the oar. This is a nice appearing boat. It would be
> interesting to take the basic form, and create a multi-chine plywood
> S&G built version.
>
> 4.) Ada, the first FMS. In BWAOM there is a pic in the FMS chapter.
> It's a 26' Diablo, which is something Bolger probably should have done
> as a straight power boat with a variety of superstructures and even an
> open version.
>
> I supposed I missed some others. So, #2 and #3 are 30+ year old
> designs, and apparently never built. But if ugly is the only reason,
> FMS wouldn't have been built either.
>
>
Looking at the FMS sail rig, it occurs to me one could build a support
with two masts and a short crossbar at the top with one guy wire
forward and two aft. This would make it possible to tack by just
moving the forward attach point of the sail from one side to the
other. One would not have to drop the sail and drag it around on the
otherside of the mast at each tack.
I think I've seen drawings of such a mast. What I saw looked like a
higher aspect ratio St.Louis Arch. I believe they were associated
with a Bolger design. Can any point me toward such info?
Bolger suggests, tacking would be done under power. IMO a small 4
stroke running almost constantly while under sail would make for a
true motorsailer. The result would be something more versatile and
comfortable than Bolger's cartoon of SMS, a 22' motor sailer with a
small diesel inboard.
The downside I see is the need to add time to break the wishbone mast
into multiple pieces each time it is struck. It's a good trade off, I
think. What do you think?
I'm looking at trailerable motor/sail cruisers for river and other
protected water camp cruising of a couple of days or so. The best in
terms of utility is Fast Motor Sailer which is in BWAOM. There are as
many as 4 other Bolger designs which lend themselves to the application.
1.) Plywood Diesel Cruiser also in BWAOM built as an outboard, and
possibly fitted with the FMS sailing gear including the lee board,
sail, etc. This is a really handsome boat. It is much more pleasant
to look at than FMS, or.......
2.) Utility for Homebuilders from "The Folding Schooner". This 22'
plywood inboard may be one of the few Bolger power designs actually
uglier than FMS. But it also features very simple construction. I
would not include the tunnel. It is very crude and draggy.
3.) Economy Motorsailer from "The Folding Schooner". 25+ footer with
an outboard for power. I'd use FMS's sail and offset mount a rudder
in place of the oar. This is a nice appearing boat. It would be
interesting to take the basic form, and create a multi-chine plywood
S&G built version.
4.) Ada, the first FMS. In BWAOM there is a pic in the FMS chapter.
It's a 26' Diablo, which is something Bolger probably should have done
as a straight power boat with a variety of superstructures and even an
open version.
I supposed I missed some others. So, #2 and #3 are 30+ year old
designs, and apparently never built. But if ugly is the only reason,
FMS wouldn't have been built either.
with two masts and a short crossbar at the top with one guy wire
forward and two aft. This would make it possible to tack by just
moving the forward attach point of the sail from one side to the
other. One would not have to drop the sail and drag it around on the
otherside of the mast at each tack.
I think I've seen drawings of such a mast. What I saw looked like a
higher aspect ratio St.Louis Arch. I believe they were associated
with a Bolger design. Can any point me toward such info?
Bolger suggests, tacking would be done under power. IMO a small 4
stroke running almost constantly while under sail would make for a
true motorsailer. The result would be something more versatile and
comfortable than Bolger's cartoon of SMS, a 22' motor sailer with a
small diesel inboard.
The downside I see is the need to add time to break the wishbone mast
into multiple pieces each time it is struck. It's a good trade off, I
think. What do you think?
I'm looking at trailerable motor/sail cruisers for river and other
protected water camp cruising of a couple of days or so. The best in
terms of utility is Fast Motor Sailer which is in BWAOM. There are as
many as 4 other Bolger designs which lend themselves to the application.
1.) Plywood Diesel Cruiser also in BWAOM built as an outboard, and
possibly fitted with the FMS sailing gear including the lee board,
sail, etc. This is a really handsome boat. It is much more pleasant
to look at than FMS, or.......
2.) Utility for Homebuilders from "The Folding Schooner". This 22'
plywood inboard may be one of the few Bolger power designs actually
uglier than FMS. But it also features very simple construction. I
would not include the tunnel. It is very crude and draggy.
3.) Economy Motorsailer from "The Folding Schooner". 25+ footer with
an outboard for power. I'd use FMS's sail and offset mount a rudder
in place of the oar. This is a nice appearing boat. It would be
interesting to take the basic form, and create a multi-chine plywood
S&G built version.
4.) Ada, the first FMS. In BWAOM there is a pic in the FMS chapter.
It's a 26' Diablo, which is something Bolger probably should have done
as a straight power boat with a variety of superstructures and even an
open version.
I supposed I missed some others. So, #2 and #3 are 30+ year old
designs, and apparently never built. But if ugly is the only reason,
FMS wouldn't have been built either.