Re: [bolger] Re: Badger, sailing dories, Bolger priorities, etc.
Peter
I am with you on the multihull. On those occasions that I dream
of voyaging to other shores, multihull is what comes to mind.
Fast comfortable offshore passages coupled with the ability to
get in close when you get somewhere.
You touched on another thing with cost constraints. I had some
thoughts on cost, but did not include them in my first comment on
this thread. Mr. Bolger and Mr. Perry not only design for
different coasts and cruising conditions, the clientele is
markedly different. You could build and equip 4-5 AS 29's for the
price of a 15 year old Valiant 40.
I think of the average production boat buyer, cruiser traveling
from marina to marina in his or hers very expensive and systems
intensive boat, when they do anchor out it is often in a raft of
others like them. When they do make it inshore to explore it is
in a rubber raft, powered by an outboard. When a system fails, or
work needs to be done on the boat they employ some one to take
care of it. They learned to sail at one of the major schools who
probably sent them to a dealer. I think of them as victims, of
the dealers, the magazines and the schools, who don't make any
money off of somebody floating up an estuary on the tide through
the quiet of a summer evening in a shallow draft, home built
boat.
This is a very elitist and snooty attitude. If we all liked the
same things then some parts of the world where I find my peace
would get very crowded.
HJ
Peter Vanderwaart wrote:
_ _ _ _ _
% Harrywelshman@...
I am with you on the multihull. On those occasions that I dream
of voyaging to other shores, multihull is what comes to mind.
Fast comfortable offshore passages coupled with the ability to
get in close when you get somewhere.
You touched on another thing with cost constraints. I had some
thoughts on cost, but did not include them in my first comment on
this thread. Mr. Bolger and Mr. Perry not only design for
different coasts and cruising conditions, the clientele is
markedly different. You could build and equip 4-5 AS 29's for the
price of a 15 year old Valiant 40.
I think of the average production boat buyer, cruiser traveling
from marina to marina in his or hers very expensive and systems
intensive boat, when they do anchor out it is often in a raft of
others like them. When they do make it inshore to explore it is
in a rubber raft, powered by an outboard. When a system fails, or
work needs to be done on the boat they employ some one to take
care of it. They learned to sail at one of the major schools who
probably sent them to a dealer. I think of them as victims, of
the dealers, the magazines and the schools, who don't make any
money off of somebody floating up an estuary on the tide through
the quiet of a summer evening in a shallow draft, home built
boat.
This is a very elitist and snooty attitude. If we all liked the
same things then some parts of the world where I find my peace
would get very crowded.
HJ
Peter Vanderwaart wrote:
>--
> > So if you are interested in performance, racing and off shore
> > passages go deep keel. If you want to cruise along the coast, any
> > coast, keels suck. I cannot conceive of 6-7ft draft and doing
> > what I like to do.
>
> I think its pretty instructive that in multihulls, where the problem
> of getting ballast as low as possible doesn't arise, the
> centerboard/daggerboard boats greatly outnumber the ones with fixed
> fins. If all cost constraints were lifted, I would certainly sail a
> multihull.
>
> Peter
>
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_ _ _ _ _
% Harrywelshman@...
Yes, and no ... Yes,Pete and Annie's new boat is a cat but no, it is
not a Wharram, though there is some Wharram influence to my eye. The
design is Pete's and she is called China Moon. Annie discussed their
new boat (under construction) in some detail in the last issue of the
"Junk Rig Assoc." newsletter if you can find a copy. Just the wet
your
appetite, the boat will be Junk rigged with two 'main' sails, one in
each hull and a mizzen centered aft. This is not a new concept, in
fact
I have seen a boat here in San Francisco Bay, with the same rig. Of
course the Hills have their own unique and always well thought out
way
of doing things. To be sure you will be seeing alot more about this
boat in the months/years to come.
not a Wharram, though there is some Wharram influence to my eye. The
design is Pete's and she is called China Moon. Annie discussed their
new boat (under construction) in some detail in the last issue of the
"Junk Rig Assoc." newsletter if you can find a copy. Just the wet
your
appetite, the boat will be Junk rigged with two 'main' sails, one in
each hull and a mizzen centered aft. This is not a new concept, in
fact
I have seen a boat here in San Francisco Bay, with the same rig. Of
course the Hills have their own unique and always well thought out
way
of doing things. To be sure you will be seeing alot more about this
boat in the months/years to come.
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr." <paul@w...> wrote:
> ah, so they've finally gone full circle! I'll be it's a Wharram cat
too....
>
> Paul
>
> paul@w...
Paul,
The Hill's new boat is a catamaran.
Ron
The Hill's new boat is a catamaran.
Ron
>From: "Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr." <paul@...>
> so can you provide more info? I'd be curious what their new boat is
> like,
> given the many, many miles they put under Badger and what they've
> learned. Every boat is a compromise, the Hills are obviously
> intelligent people and Badger seemed like a very good compromise for
> what they wanted to do; if they have come up with a better compromise
> based on their experience,
> I'd like to know more about it!
>
> Paul
>paul@...
I was thinking about the wrong boat. I was wrong.
I have always admired the Badger and the folks that built it for getting a
lot of bang for their buck. For crusing sailing ability is not the only
quailitie that is important. Getting there alive is the most important.
Ease of handling, cost and room are all about as importatant as saling
quailites.
We spend a lot of time looking for the best answer when all we need is a
good answer. There is no doubt the Badger is a good answer. It may well be
the best answer for the owners and some others. From what I have seen it
looks easy to build and easy to rig. It's dory shape has a great history
of weathing stroms. It gets them where they are going and they are saling
while I am settig in Oklahoma dreaming about it.
Gordon
Gordon Cougergcouger@...
Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
I have always admired the Badger and the folks that built it for getting a
lot of bang for their buck. For crusing sailing ability is not the only
quailitie that is important. Getting there alive is the most important.
Ease of handling, cost and room are all about as importatant as saling
quailites.
We spend a lot of time looking for the best answer when all we need is a
good answer. There is no doubt the Badger is a good answer. It may well be
the best answer for the owners and some others. From what I have seen it
looks easy to build and easy to rig. It's dory shape has a great history
of weathing stroms. It gets them where they are going and they are saling
while I am settig in Oklahoma dreaming about it.
Gordon
Gordon Cougergcouger@...
Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bennett Scheuer" <btscheuer@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 9:01 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Badger, sailing dories, Bolger priorities, etc.
> Gordon - What is the source of your information about the Badger?
> Particularly your comment that the boat was designed as a shoal draft
> vessel that didn't sail worth 'squat'? The boat was never designed as
> a
> shoal draft vessel. It is true that it doesn't go to windward as well
> as some vessels, though about as well as most gaffers of similar
> size.
> I have sailed aboard Badger with Pete and Annie. I would say that
> Badger is very well built and as well, suited to the type of sailing
> the Hills intended for her; fast...no, weatherly ... better than
> some,
> not as good as others, seaworthy ...very. I have said many times that
> I
> am of the impression that the capabilities of most sailing vessels
> exceeds that of their skippers. the Hills are rare exceptions.
> Nonetheless, I think they would tell you that they were generaly
> satisfied with the sailing characteristics of Badger.
>
> Bob Weiss makes a good point and states it well ... Badger has indeed
> 'walked the walk...' Lest there be any question, check my post #1418
> which includes a very brief tally of the sailing the Hills did with
> Badger in the period just before they sold her.
>
> Bob, I wish I had your gift for articulation.
>
> All the best, Bennett Scheuer
>
>
>
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>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
I did some checking and I was talking about the wrong boat.
Gordon
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. O'Donnell" <dadadata@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 9:30 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Badger, sailing dories, Bolger priorities, etc.
> Gordon - What is the source of your information about the Badger?
> Particularly your comment that the boat was designed as a shoal draft
> vessel that didn't sail worth 'squat'? The boat was never designed as
> a shoal draft vessel.
>
> ===
>
> And Badger is *not* a "sailing dory". It does have a "dorylike" hull
> shape; after all, there are only so many hull shapes with flat bottoms.
>
> If you want to see a DORY, go to Mystic Seaport. The dories there are
> NOT Gloucester Light Dories.
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>