[bolger] Re: Light Scooner X 2? Scalability
The crabs got a reprieve today. It's been very humid so I spent the day
waiting for my teal's paint to dry and casting about the Montauk boat
building community, Light Scooner plans in hand. Heres a smattering of
thought on "Doubling the Scooner" from a few guys who make boats for a
living (and a few who don't.)
1: If you make her, DON'T take her offshore. Even if the boat didn't
fall apart, the flat bottom would give you a terible pounding.
2: She'd be great for cruising the sound, as long as you had one eye on
the weather, (pounding from the flat bottom, knock downs, total failure
of the hull and/or rigging, etc.)
3: Most of the strength in any hull like this one comes from how hard
it is to bend plywood along the flat axis, i.e. a rectanglular piece of
plywood is hard to make into a paralellagram. The sticks (chines,
gunnells, stringers) mostly encourage the plywood to stay in a hard to
deflect orientation. 1/4 would probably be sufficient, provided it's
backed up by bigger sticks and/or more sticks. (Two camps seemed to
develop, one favoring 4x4's (just to be on the safe side), the other a
more modest size increase, but adding more runners along the sides, top
and bottom to match the maximum spans allowed in the original design.)
4: The sail/balast/keel combination seems to be the most thorny issue.
Dynamic balasting by the crew might be fun on a 23.5 footer, but simply
gathering sufficient crew, (let alone choreographing them,) to keep a
47 (with four times the sail area,) flat is obviouly not the right
solution. This leads to the thought of a balasted keel; and this, along
with trying to keep the masts from being broken or blown off leads to a
cascading series of off reenforments that move the whole project out of
the realm of a pirate ship you can build in your yard. A better thought
is less canvas, but how much less is the big question. Start with the
original rig and work up? If you build the dagger board(s) around a
steel center, maybe you could carry a little more, but now we're
reenforcing the trunk...it's a slippery slope.
All and all, guys we're in favor of the idea. After all, it's not their
time, money, or life. I'm sure as long as I had beer in the fridge I'd
have plenty of help. How do get epoxy to set in 20-30 degree weather?
The wind is suppose to be NW tomorrow, and as soon as the paint dries,
the crabs' reprieve is up. If you're in the neighborhood, we stop by.
We should have plenty.
Best,
David Ryan
waiting for my teal's paint to dry and casting about the Montauk boat
building community, Light Scooner plans in hand. Heres a smattering of
thought on "Doubling the Scooner" from a few guys who make boats for a
living (and a few who don't.)
1: If you make her, DON'T take her offshore. Even if the boat didn't
fall apart, the flat bottom would give you a terible pounding.
2: She'd be great for cruising the sound, as long as you had one eye on
the weather, (pounding from the flat bottom, knock downs, total failure
of the hull and/or rigging, etc.)
3: Most of the strength in any hull like this one comes from how hard
it is to bend plywood along the flat axis, i.e. a rectanglular piece of
plywood is hard to make into a paralellagram. The sticks (chines,
gunnells, stringers) mostly encourage the plywood to stay in a hard to
deflect orientation. 1/4 would probably be sufficient, provided it's
backed up by bigger sticks and/or more sticks. (Two camps seemed to
develop, one favoring 4x4's (just to be on the safe side), the other a
more modest size increase, but adding more runners along the sides, top
and bottom to match the maximum spans allowed in the original design.)
4: The sail/balast/keel combination seems to be the most thorny issue.
Dynamic balasting by the crew might be fun on a 23.5 footer, but simply
gathering sufficient crew, (let alone choreographing them,) to keep a
47 (with four times the sail area,) flat is obviouly not the right
solution. This leads to the thought of a balasted keel; and this, along
with trying to keep the masts from being broken or blown off leads to a
cascading series of off reenforments that move the whole project out of
the realm of a pirate ship you can build in your yard. A better thought
is less canvas, but how much less is the big question. Start with the
original rig and work up? If you build the dagger board(s) around a
steel center, maybe you could carry a little more, but now we're
reenforcing the trunk...it's a slippery slope.
All and all, guys we're in favor of the idea. After all, it's not their
time, money, or life. I'm sure as long as I had beer in the fridge I'd
have plenty of help. How do get epoxy to set in 20-30 degree weather?
The wind is suppose to be NW tomorrow, and as soon as the paint dries,
the crabs' reprieve is up. If you're in the neighborhood, we stop by.
We should have plenty.
Best,
David Ryan
> Widlly underbuilt, for the same reason that elephant's legs arealmost as
> fat as they are long and ants can pick up things many times largerthan
> themselves but, luckily, can't grow as tall as buildings.3-dimensional
> things grow as a cubic even when any single dimension grows linearly.increased
>
> So, for example, double a 1 foot boat to 2 feet: your volume has
> 8-fold, from 1 ft3 to 8 ft3! Your 52' light schooner might go from500
> pounds to 5000 - can't imagine something the mass of Surburan heldtogether
> with 2x2's!over-built,
> Yikes!
>
> Gregg Carlson
>
>
> >My initial and rather simple minded thought is double everything. 1/2
> >inch plywood, 2x2 inch chine logs, etc. However, the more cautious
> >parts of my brain tell me that this would either be wildly
> >or wildly under-built. For example, it seems that some extra bulkhead
> >would be in order, and perhaps a little less canvas.
> >
> >If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them; especially
> >those based on experience and/or expertise, (I've have access to a
> >bountiful supply of beer fuel speculation.)
>
>
>
>
>
As others have pointed out, it doesn't quite scale that way.
Have you considered the Folding Schooner? It's 32ft long and was designed to be
that way. You could probably strectch it to be 36 or so, and still fit it on a
small trailer.
G Carlson wrote:
Have you considered the Folding Schooner? It's 32ft long and was designed to be
that way. You could probably strectch it to be 36 or so, and still fit it on a
small trailer.
G Carlson wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> Widlly underbuilt, for the same reason that elephant's legs are almost as
> fat as they are long and ants can pick up things many times larger than
> themselves but, luckily, can't grow as tall as buildings. 3-dimensional
> things grow as a cubic even when any single dimension grows linearly.
>
> So, for example, double a 1 foot boat to 2 feet: your volume has increased
> 8-fold, from 1 ft3 to 8 ft3! Your 52' light schooner might go from 500
> pounds to 5000 - can't imagine something the mass of Surburan held together
> with 2x2's!
> Yikes!
>
> Gregg Carlson
>
> >My initial and rather simple minded thought is double everything. 1/2
> >inch plywood, 2x2 inch chine logs, etc. However, the more cautious
> >parts of my brain tell me that this would either be wildly over-built,
> >or wildly under-built. For example, it seems that some extra bulkhead
> >would be in order, and perhaps a little less canvas.
> >
> >If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them; especially
> >those based on experience and/or expertise, (I've have access to a
> >bountiful supply of beer fuel speculation.)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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David,
A rule of thumb is lengthen or shorten a boat by no more than 10% --
otherwise you need another design. The original designer may not be
disposed to lengthen one of his boats, and prefer to create a new boat.
If choosing to lengthen a design, I would stick to the 10% change, and
try to involve the designer. If he is unable to help, minimize the
risk of disappointing results -- study yacht/boat design books (lots
out there) and try something small in time and money.
Phil Lea
Russellville, AR.
Building a modified June Bug
<7ng9tt$q87-@egroups.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=59
A rule of thumb is lengthen or shorten a boat by no more than 10% --
otherwise you need another design. The original designer may not be
disposed to lengthen one of his boats, and prefer to create a new boat.
If choosing to lengthen a design, I would stick to the 10% change, and
try to involve the designer. If he is unable to help, minimize the
risk of disappointing results -- study yacht/boat design books (lots
out there) and try something small in time and money.
Phil Lea
Russellville, AR.
Building a modified June Bug
<7ng9tt$q87-@egroups.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=59
> The teal in nearly done. I've got a spit coat of white paint dryingthe
> overnight, and a pot of red paint to finish her off. Maiden voyage is
> going to be a crab killing mission on Georgica pond just as soon as
> paint dries.footer
>
> After today's primer coat on the teal, we headed of to Napigue Harbor
> to kill some clams and my thought headed in the direction of the Light
> Scooner. For some reason, I can't ge the idea of doubling the
> dimentions out of my head, (if a 23.5 foot scooner is good, a 47
> is twice as good!)
>
> My initial and rather simple minded thought is double everything. 1/2
> inch plywood, 2x2 inch chine logs, etc. However, the more cautious
> parts of my brain tell me that this would either be wildly over-built,
> or wildly under-built. For example, it seems that some extra bulkhead
> would be in order, and perhaps a little less canvas.
>
> If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them; especially
> those based on experience and/or expertise, (I've have access to a
> bountiful supply of beer fuel speculation.)
>
> TIA,
>
> David Ryan
>
> P.S. Carpentry is fun, finishing sucks!
>
>
>
Hi David,
Widlly underbuilt, for the same reason that elephant's legs are almost as
fat as they are long and ants can pick up things many times larger than
themselves but, luckily, can't grow as tall as buildings. 3-dimensional
things grow as a cubic even when any single dimension grows linearly.
So, for example, double a 1 foot boat to 2 feet: your volume has increased
8-fold, from 1 ft3 to 8 ft3! Your 52' light schooner might go from 500
pounds to 5000 - can't imagine something the mass of Surburan held together
with 2x2's!
Yikes!
Gregg Carlson
Widlly underbuilt, for the same reason that elephant's legs are almost as
fat as they are long and ants can pick up things many times larger than
themselves but, luckily, can't grow as tall as buildings. 3-dimensional
things grow as a cubic even when any single dimension grows linearly.
So, for example, double a 1 foot boat to 2 feet: your volume has increased
8-fold, from 1 ft3 to 8 ft3! Your 52' light schooner might go from 500
pounds to 5000 - can't imagine something the mass of Surburan held together
with 2x2's!
Yikes!
Gregg Carlson
>My initial and rather simple minded thought is double everything. 1/2
>inch plywood, 2x2 inch chine logs, etc. However, the more cautious
>parts of my brain tell me that this would either be wildly over-built,
>or wildly under-built. For example, it seems that some extra bulkhead
>would be in order, and perhaps a little less canvas.
>
>If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them; especially
>those based on experience and/or expertise, (I've have access to a
>bountiful supply of beer fuel speculation.)
The teal in nearly done. I've got a spit coat of white paint drying
overnight, and a pot of red paint to finish her off. Maiden voyage is
going to be a crab killing mission on Georgica pond just as soon as the
paint dries.
After today's primer coat on the teal, we headed of to Napigue Harbor
to kill some clams and my thought headed in the direction of the Light
Scooner. For some reason, I can't ge the idea of doubling the
dimentions out of my head, (if a 23.5 foot scooner is good, a 47 footer
is twice as good!)
My initial and rather simple minded thought is double everything. 1/2
inch plywood, 2x2 inch chine logs, etc. However, the more cautious
parts of my brain tell me that this would either be wildly over-built,
or wildly under-built. For example, it seems that some extra bulkhead
would be in order, and perhaps a little less canvas.
If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them; especially
those based on experience and/or expertise, (I've have access to a
bountiful supply of beer fuel speculation.)
TIA,
David Ryan
P.S. Carpentry is fun, finishing sucks!
overnight, and a pot of red paint to finish her off. Maiden voyage is
going to be a crab killing mission on Georgica pond just as soon as the
paint dries.
After today's primer coat on the teal, we headed of to Napigue Harbor
to kill some clams and my thought headed in the direction of the Light
Scooner. For some reason, I can't ge the idea of doubling the
dimentions out of my head, (if a 23.5 foot scooner is good, a 47 footer
is twice as good!)
My initial and rather simple minded thought is double everything. 1/2
inch plywood, 2x2 inch chine logs, etc. However, the more cautious
parts of my brain tell me that this would either be wildly over-built,
or wildly under-built. For example, it seems that some extra bulkhead
would be in order, and perhaps a little less canvas.
If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them; especially
those based on experience and/or expertise, (I've have access to a
bountiful supply of beer fuel speculation.)
TIA,
David Ryan
P.S. Carpentry is fun, finishing sucks!