Re: Copyright and Boat Building
I agree with going to the blueprint shop for copies. They are used to the idea of working copies (like one for each subcontractor) and they can generally scale things. I recently got some plans that had been rescaled and republished several times. I got the drawings rescaled again and now have some usable 1 inch to the foot drawings.
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is legally complicated, but practically simple.
Plans can be copyrighted, but that would only protect the actual
drawing, not the design of the boat which is protected by your
contract with the designer. Bolger sells the plans with rights to
build one boat. Those rights govern the intellectual property created
by Bolger and transferred via the plans (and perhaps in other ways,
too, like a fax or phone call).
Nowadays, you do not have to mark material as copyrighted to have it
considered to be copyrighted so the plans would get that status
automatically.
As a practical matter, you can do anything you want with the plans,
including copy them, as long as it does not cost Bolger any additional
plan sales, or facilitate the construction of additional boats.
Bolger might look to sell multiple copies to professional shops,
production builders, or where multiple copies have to be submitted
e.g. for government licensing review, but not from amateur builders of
small boats. In MAIB, he made some snippy comments about the movie
makers who were unwilling to buy additional copies of plans for the Rose.
Plans can be copyrighted, but that would only protect the actual
drawing, not the design of the boat which is protected by your
contract with the designer. Bolger sells the plans with rights to
build one boat. Those rights govern the intellectual property created
by Bolger and transferred via the plans (and perhaps in other ways,
too, like a fax or phone call).
Nowadays, you do not have to mark material as copyrighted to have it
considered to be copyrighted so the plans would get that status
automatically.
As a practical matter, you can do anything you want with the plans,
including copy them, as long as it does not cost Bolger any additional
plan sales, or facilitate the construction of additional boats.
Bolger might look to sell multiple copies to professional shops,
production builders, or where multiple copies have to be submitted
e.g. for government licensing review, but not from amateur builders of
small boats. In MAIB, he made some snippy comments about the movie
makers who were unwilling to buy additional copies of plans for the Rose.
Many rights are inherent in such things as the doctrines of fair use and
first purchase. Making shop copies is one of them -- the designer can't
forbid you from doing it even if they wanted to. Selling the build license
(if you haven't used it) is another.
-p
first purchase. Making shop copies is one of them -- the designer can't
forbid you from doing it even if they wanted to. Selling the build license
(if you haven't used it) is another.
-p
On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 7:59 AM, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...>wrote:
> PAUL DELORY wrote:
> >
> >
> > Gene, Try KINKOS next time they have been making working copies for me
> > for years. Just as a matter of fact I copy
> > all plans, put the originals away and play with the copies.
> > BubbaP
> >
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.comFrom<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.comFrom<bolger%2540yahoogroups.comFrom>
> >:
> >goldranger02-boats@...
> > <mailto:goldranger02-boats%40yahoo.comDate<goldranger02-boats%2540yahoo.comDate>>:
> Sat, 8 Nov 2008 17:57:37
> > -0500Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building
> >
> > I'd like to thank everybody who came across with positive comments. I
> > didn't want to come back to the negative comments and start a
> > senseless exchange so thanks for handling it. I know I'm not doing
> > anything illegal by making the copies but that isn't how I feel after
> > walking out of a store being refused. Yea, I might have wanted all of
> > you to get mad at Staples but not really. I was just very frustrated
> > when I got home and wanted to hear what others thought.Sincerely,Gene
> > T.On 8 Nov, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Ron Magen wrote:> snip> > Well, I went
> > to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could > scribble> > all
> > over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! . . .> snip>> Gene,>
> > I use Staples for a great many things . . 'like a kid in a candy >
> > store' . .> when there are really good sales. Cheap binders, clear
> > 'File > Boxes', 0.5mm> pencils {for the shop & otherwise}, USB memory,
> > and a lot of other > stuff.> BUT - almost never COPYING. For that I go
> > {in my case} next door.>> KINKO's {or FedX/Kinkos now} is
> > predominately for copying . . and > has the> LARGE 'Blueprint' copying
> > machines to prove it !! EVERY 'PLAN' I > take into> the shop -Bolger
> > or otherwise- IS a COPY. The originals are rolled > up/folded> in the
> > office. In addition for either specific parts, or entire 'small>
> > plans' I will make copies, attach them to 1/8 or 1/4 Hardboard, cut >
> > them out> and use as Templates - either drawing or for routing.>> For
> > 1 or 2 sheets of 'notebook' size i use the local Library . . . > they
> > are> the cheapest at $0.10 a sheet. REALLY CHEAP when you set the >
> > machine for> 11x14, or 14x17 !! I've even dropped $3 to $6, and about
> > an hour of > time, to> copy entire books. It's really cheap compared
> > to what you'll spend > on ebay> or 'Half.com, etc. to get long
> > out-of-print books . . Sucher on > Dories,> Gardener on Traditional,
> > Oughtred & Stewart on 'Clinker' & > 'Lapstrake', Monk> on 'Small
> > Boats', etc.>> Regards & Good Luck,> Ron Magen> Backyard Boatshop>>>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with
> > Windows Live
> >http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/
> > <http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/>
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> I have been using picture, music and video that was done by other people
> who stamped a creative commons license on the work. When I put a video
> together I give them what ever credit they want and the kind of license
> tells me what I can and cannot do under the license. The different
> licenses go all the way from not being able to do anything beyond whats
> allowed under fair use to licensing anyone to do anything they want with
> the item. For example, A boat designer could license the plans to
> allow one copy for shop use, one copy made small suitable fro framing,
> and a copy for education to be used in the classroom. On rubber stamp
> on the drawing tells it all. When you take it to Staples there is no
> question as to what rights you have bought. Of course Staples has a
> right to sell what they want and give whatever service they want and
> every customer
> has to decide whether thier policy suits their needs or not. My way of
> deciding if I want to deal with someone or not is did I get what I went
> after at the price I wanted to pay and was it a pleasant experience.
> Then always in the back of my mind is, do they spread oil on clean
> waters or kill baby seals?? Then I vote with my dollars.
> Doug
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here's a suggestion for working around the issue. Next time you are
buying plans, ask the designer if he will sell a shop copy as well for
a nominal fee. It need not be any more than to cover the extra
duplication costs. This way your shop copy is of good quality, made
directly from the original.
I would think Mr. Bolger would be sympathetic to the needs of his
builder-customers. Explain the reason for the spare when making the
request and your desire to avoid any copyright issues. Then again, he
has been burned enough times to be suspicious. Still, being
realistic, there are now plenty of means to duplicate plans, so one
extra copy in existence is not a big deal. His big concern is outfits
selling many unauthorized copies.
Doug
buying plans, ask the designer if he will sell a shop copy as well for
a nominal fee. It need not be any more than to cover the extra
duplication costs. This way your shop copy is of good quality, made
directly from the original.
I would think Mr. Bolger would be sympathetic to the needs of his
builder-customers. Explain the reason for the spare when making the
request and your desire to avoid any copyright issues. Then again, he
has been burned enough times to be suspicious. Still, being
realistic, there are now plenty of means to duplicate plans, so one
extra copy in existence is not a big deal. His big concern is outfits
selling many unauthorized copies.
Doug
This topic comes up on this group every six months or so, so much of
this is repeat...
Still, one thing I find interesting about USA law in this regard it
that the law is different for the paper describing the hull vessel
shape, and the actual vessel shape of the hull. Copyright law applies
to the paper describing the shape of the vessel, but not to the shape
of the vessel.
The shapes of vessels is protected much differently than the writing on paper.
The law about shapes of vessel hulls is found here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sup_01_17_10_13.html
this is repeat...
Still, one thing I find interesting about USA law in this regard it
that the law is different for the paper describing the hull vessel
shape, and the actual vessel shape of the hull. Copyright law applies
to the paper describing the shape of the vessel, but not to the shape
of the vessel.
The shapes of vessels is protected much differently than the writing on paper.
The law about shapes of vessel hulls is found here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sup_01_17_10_13.html
PAUL DELORY wrote:
who stamped a creative commons license on the work. When I put a video
together I give them what ever credit they want and the kind of license
tells me what I can and cannot do under the license. The different
licenses go all the way from not being able to do anything beyond whats
allowed under fair use to licensing anyone to do anything they want with
the item. For example, A boat designer could license the plans to
allow one copy for shop use, one copy made small suitable fro framing,
and a copy for education to be used in the classroom. On rubber stamp
on the drawing tells it all. When you take it to Staples there is no
question as to what rights you have bought. Of course Staples has a
right to sell what they want and give whatever service they want and
every customer
has to decide whether thier policy suits their needs or not. My way of
deciding if I want to deal with someone or not is did I get what I went
after at the price I wanted to pay and was it a pleasant experience.
Then always in the back of my mind is, do they spread oil on clean
waters or kill baby seals?? Then I vote with my dollars.
Doug
>I have been using picture, music and video that was done by other people
>
> Gene, Try KINKOS next time they have been making working copies for me
> for years. Just as a matter of fact I copy
> all plans, put the originals away and play with the copies.
> BubbaP
>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.comFrom<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.comFrom>:
>goldranger02-boats@...
> <mailto:goldranger02-boats%40yahoo.comDate>: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 17:57:37
> -0500Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building
>
> I'd like to thank everybody who came across with positive comments. I
> didn't want to come back to the negative comments and start a
> senseless exchange so thanks for handling it. I know I'm not doing
> anything illegal by making the copies but that isn't how I feel after
> walking out of a store being refused. Yea, I might have wanted all of
> you to get mad at Staples but not really. I was just very frustrated
> when I got home and wanted to hear what others thought.Sincerely,Gene
> T.On 8 Nov, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Ron Magen wrote:> snip> > Well, I went
> to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could > scribble> > all
> over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! . . .> snip>> Gene,>
> I use Staples for a great many things . . 'like a kid in a candy >
> store' . .> when there are really good sales. Cheap binders, clear
> 'File > Boxes', 0.5mm> pencils {for the shop & otherwise}, USB memory,
> and a lot of other > stuff.> BUT - almost never COPYING. For that I go
> {in my case} next door.>> KINKO's {or FedX/Kinkos now} is
> predominately for copying . . and > has the> LARGE 'Blueprint' copying
> machines to prove it !! EVERY 'PLAN' I > take into> the shop -Bolger
> or otherwise- IS a COPY. The originals are rolled > up/folded> in the
> office. In addition for either specific parts, or entire 'small>
> plans' I will make copies, attach them to 1/8 or 1/4 Hardboard, cut >
> them out> and use as Templates - either drawing or for routing.>> For
> 1 or 2 sheets of 'notebook' size i use the local Library . . . > they
> are> the cheapest at $0.10 a sheet. REALLY CHEAP when you set the >
> machine for> 11x14, or 14x17 !! I've even dropped $3 to $6, and about
> an hour of > time, to> copy entire books. It's really cheap compared
> to what you'll spend > on ebay> or 'Half.com, etc. to get long
> out-of-print books . . Sucher on > Dories,> Gardener on Traditional,
> Oughtred & Stewart on 'Clinker' & > 'Lapstrake', Monk> on 'Small
> Boats', etc.>> Regards & Good Luck,> Ron Magen> Backyard Boatshop>>>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with
> Windows Live
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/
> <http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
who stamped a creative commons license on the work. When I put a video
together I give them what ever credit they want and the kind of license
tells me what I can and cannot do under the license. The different
licenses go all the way from not being able to do anything beyond whats
allowed under fair use to licensing anyone to do anything they want with
the item. For example, A boat designer could license the plans to
allow one copy for shop use, one copy made small suitable fro framing,
and a copy for education to be used in the classroom. On rubber stamp
on the drawing tells it all. When you take it to Staples there is no
question as to what rights you have bought. Of course Staples has a
right to sell what they want and give whatever service they want and
every customer
has to decide whether thier policy suits their needs or not. My way of
deciding if I want to deal with someone or not is did I get what I went
after at the price I wanted to pay and was it a pleasant experience.
Then always in the back of my mind is, do they spread oil on clean
waters or kill baby seals?? Then I vote with my dollars.
Doug
Gene, Try KINKOS next time they have been making working copies for me for years. Just as a matter of fact I copy
all plans, put the originals away and play with the copies.
BubbaP
To:bolger@yahoogroups.comFrom:goldranger02-boats@...: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 17:57:37 -0500Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building
I'd like to thank everybody who came across with positive comments. I didn't want to come back to the negative comments and start a senseless exchange so thanks for handling it. I know I'm not doing anything illegal by making the copies but that isn't how I feel after walking out of a store being refused. Yea, I might have wanted all of you to get mad at Staples but not really. I was just very frustrated when I got home and wanted to hear what others thought.Sincerely,Gene T.On 8 Nov, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Ron Magen wrote:> snip> > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could > scribble> > all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! . . .> snip>> Gene,> I use Staples for a great many things . . 'like a kid in a candy > store' . .> when there are really good sales. Cheap binders, clear 'File > Boxes', 0.5mm> pencils {for the shop & otherwise}, USB memory, and a lot of other > stuff.> BUT - almost never COPYING. For that I go {in my case} next door.>> KINKO's {or FedX/Kinkos now} is predominately for copying . . and > has the> LARGE 'Blueprint' copying machines to prove it !! EVERY 'PLAN' I > take into> the shop -Bolger or otherwise- IS a COPY. The originals are rolled > up/folded> in the office. In addition for either specific parts, or entire 'small> plans' I will make copies, attach them to 1/8 or 1/4 Hardboard, cut > them out> and use as Templates - either drawing or for routing.>> For 1 or 2 sheets of 'notebook' size i use the local Library . . . > they are> the cheapest at $0.10 a sheet. REALLY CHEAP when you set the > machine for> 11x14, or 14x17 !! I've even dropped $3 to $6, and about an hour of > time, to> copy entire books. It's really cheap compared to what you'll spend > on ebay> or 'Half.com, etc. to get long out-of-print books . . Sucher on > Dories,> Gardener on Traditional, Oughtred & Stewart on 'Clinker' & > 'Lapstrake', Monk> on 'Small Boats', etc.>> Regards & Good Luck,> Ron Magen> Backyard Boatshop>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
all plans, put the originals away and play with the copies.
BubbaP
To:bolger@yahoogroups.comFrom:goldranger02-boats@...: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 17:57:37 -0500Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building
I'd like to thank everybody who came across with positive comments. I didn't want to come back to the negative comments and start a senseless exchange so thanks for handling it. I know I'm not doing anything illegal by making the copies but that isn't how I feel after walking out of a store being refused. Yea, I might have wanted all of you to get mad at Staples but not really. I was just very frustrated when I got home and wanted to hear what others thought.Sincerely,Gene T.On 8 Nov, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Ron Magen wrote:> snip> > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could > scribble> > all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! . . .> snip>> Gene,> I use Staples for a great many things . . 'like a kid in a candy > store' . .> when there are really good sales. Cheap binders, clear 'File > Boxes', 0.5mm> pencils {for the shop & otherwise}, USB memory, and a lot of other > stuff.> BUT - almost never COPYING. For that I go {in my case} next door.>> KINKO's {or FedX/Kinkos now} is predominately for copying . . and > has the> LARGE 'Blueprint' copying machines to prove it !! EVERY 'PLAN' I > take into> the shop -Bolger or otherwise- IS a COPY. The originals are rolled > up/folded> in the office. In addition for either specific parts, or entire 'small> plans' I will make copies, attach them to 1/8 or 1/4 Hardboard, cut > them out> and use as Templates - either drawing or for routing.>> For 1 or 2 sheets of 'notebook' size i use the local Library . . . > they are> the cheapest at $0.10 a sheet. REALLY CHEAP when you set the > machine for> 11x14, or 14x17 !! I've even dropped $3 to $6, and about an hour of > time, to> copy entire books. It's really cheap compared to what you'll spend > on ebay> or 'Half.com, etc. to get long out-of-print books . . Sucher on > Dories,> Gardener on Traditional, Oughtred & Stewart on 'Clinker' & > 'Lapstrake', Monk> on 'Small Boats', etc.>> Regards & Good Luck,> Ron Magen> Backyard Boatshop>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'd like to thank everybody who came across with positive comments.
I didn't want to come back to the negative comments and start a
senseless exchange so thanks for handling it. I know I'm not doing
anything illegal by making the copies but that isn't how I feel after
walking out of a store being refused. Yea, I might have wanted all
of you to get mad at Staples but not really. I was just very
frustrated when I got home and wanted to hear what others thought.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
I didn't want to come back to the negative comments and start a
senseless exchange so thanks for handling it. I know I'm not doing
anything illegal by making the copies but that isn't how I feel after
walking out of a store being refused. Yea, I might have wanted all
of you to get mad at Staples but not really. I was just very
frustrated when I got home and wanted to hear what others thought.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 8 Nov, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Ron Magen wrote:
> snip
> > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
> scribble
> > all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! . . .
> snip
>
> Gene,
> I use Staples for a great many things . . 'like a kid in a candy
> store' . .
> when there are really good sales. Cheap binders, clear 'File
> Boxes', 0.5mm
> pencils {for the shop & otherwise}, USB memory, and a lot of other
> stuff.
> BUT - almost never COPYING. For that I go {in my case} next door.
>
> KINKO's {or FedX/Kinkos now} is predominately for copying . . and
> has the
> LARGE 'Blueprint' copying machines to prove it !! EVERY 'PLAN' I
> take into
> the shop -Bolger or otherwise- IS a COPY. The originals are rolled
> up/folded
> in the office. In addition for either specific parts, or entire 'small
> plans' I will make copies, attach them to 1/8 or 1/4 Hardboard, cut
> them out
> and use as Templates - either drawing or for routing.
>
> For 1 or 2 sheets of 'notebook' size i use the local Library . . .
> they are
> the cheapest at $0.10 a sheet. REALLY CHEAP when you set the
> machine for
> 11x14, or 14x17 !! I've even dropped $3 to $6, and about an hour of
> time, to
> copy entire books. It's really cheap compared to what you'll spend
> on ebay
> or 'Half.com, etc. to get long out-of-print books . . Sucher on
> Dories,
> Gardener on Traditional, Oughtred & Stewart on 'Clinker' &
> 'Lapstrake', Monk
> on 'Small Boats', etc.
>
> Regards & Good Luck,
> Ron Magen
> Backyard Boatshop
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
snip
Gene,
I use Staples for a great many things . . 'like a kid in a candy store' . .
when there are really good sales. Cheap binders, clear 'File Boxes', 0.5mm
pencils {for the shop & otherwise}, USB memory, and a lot of other stuff.
BUT - almost never COPYING. For that I go {in my case} next door.
KINKO's {or FedX/Kinkos now} is predominately for copying . . and has the
LARGE 'Blueprint' copying machines to prove it !! EVERY 'PLAN' I take into
the shop -Bolger or otherwise- IS a COPY. The originals are rolled up/folded
in the office. In addition for either specific parts, or entire 'small
plans' I will make copies, attach them to 1/8 or 1/4 Hardboard, cut them out
and use as Templates - either drawing or for routing.
For 1 or 2 sheets of 'notebook' size i use the local Library . . . they are
the cheapest at $0.10 a sheet. REALLY CHEAP when you set the machine for
11x14, or 14x17 !! I've even dropped $3 to $6, and about an hour of time, to
copy entire books. It's really cheap compared to what you'll spend on ebay
or 'Half.com, etc. to get long out-of-print books . . Sucher on Dories,
Gardener on Traditional, Oughtred & Stewart on 'Clinker' & 'Lapstrake', Monk
on 'Small Boats', etc.
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
> Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could scribblesnip
> all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! . . .
Gene,
I use Staples for a great many things . . 'like a kid in a candy store' . .
when there are really good sales. Cheap binders, clear 'File Boxes', 0.5mm
pencils {for the shop & otherwise}, USB memory, and a lot of other stuff.
BUT - almost never COPYING. For that I go {in my case} next door.
KINKO's {or FedX/Kinkos now} is predominately for copying . . and has the
LARGE 'Blueprint' copying machines to prove it !! EVERY 'PLAN' I take into
the shop -Bolger or otherwise- IS a COPY. The originals are rolled up/folded
in the office. In addition for either specific parts, or entire 'small
plans' I will make copies, attach them to 1/8 or 1/4 Hardboard, cut them out
and use as Templates - either drawing or for routing.
For 1 or 2 sheets of 'notebook' size i use the local Library . . . they are
the cheapest at $0.10 a sheet. REALLY CHEAP when you set the machine for
11x14, or 14x17 !! I've even dropped $3 to $6, and about an hour of time, to
copy entire books. It's really cheap compared to what you'll spend on ebay
or 'Half.com, etc. to get long out-of-print books . . Sucher on Dories,
Gardener on Traditional, Oughtred & Stewart on 'Clinker' & 'Lapstrake', Monk
on 'Small Boats', etc.
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop