Re: Plywood 101
The only types of plywood that you know for sure have a good core so
they will not be a problem down the road are the marine plys and good
MDO. Anything else you will find WILL have voides of one kind or
another shortning the life of the boat.
Jon
they will not be a problem down the road are the marine plys and good
MDO. Anything else you will find WILL have voides of one kind or
another shortning the life of the boat.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "paulthober" <paulthober@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <dschurricanes@> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's
design..?
> >
>
> I built a Gypsy and a Chebacco using ACX. Worked for me, however, it
> didn't save much moolah. Lots and lots of sorting through the pile
at
> Home Despot. For the last couple of years I haven't seen panels
> labeled ACX. I also built a Nymph using $10/sheet luau [sic]. No
> problem. I built a Cartopper a couple of years ago using BS1088 ply
> and am going to build a Chebacco, Caledonia, or a Tremolino this
> winter and it will also be built using BS1088 ply.
>
> Forgive me as this has been beaten to death numerous times in the
> past, but I agree with the faction that advocates using the good
> stuff, particularly if you want a lasting product. The bonus is that
> building is easier with quality materials.
>
> paul
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
didn't save much moolah. Lots and lots of sorting through the pile at
Home Despot. For the last couple of years I haven't seen panels
labeled ACX. I also built a Nymph using $10/sheet luau [sic]. No
problem. I built a Cartopper a couple of years ago using BS1088 ply
and am going to build a Chebacco, Caledonia, or a Tremolino this
winter and it will also be built using BS1088 ply.
Forgive me as this has been beaten to death numerous times in the
past, but I agree with the faction that advocates using the good
stuff, particularly if you want a lasting product. The bonus is that
building is easier with quality materials.
paul
>I built a Gypsy and a Chebacco using ACX. Worked for me, however, it
> Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's design..?
>
didn't save much moolah. Lots and lots of sorting through the pile at
Home Despot. For the last couple of years I haven't seen panels
labeled ACX. I also built a Nymph using $10/sheet luau [sic]. No
problem. I built a Cartopper a couple of years ago using BS1088 ply
and am going to build a Chebacco, Caledonia, or a Tremolino this
winter and it will also be built using BS1088 ply.
Forgive me as this has been beaten to death numerous times in the
past, but I agree with the faction that advocates using the good
stuff, particularly if you want a lasting product. The bonus is that
building is easier with quality materials.
paul
I have used MDO in three of my boats over the past five years. If you
use epoxy there is no need to remove the paper to bond something to
it. The paper is very strong and well attached to the wood. The
joint will fail at the wood not paper.
I very much like glassing over epoxy. It is a great surface to start
with so there is little or no surface prep.
One of the greatest advantages to MDO is the fact that you don't need
to use epoxy and fiberglass to get a good enduring Finnish. Though it
is probably still a good idea to glass the bottom for abrasion resistance.
Chris Feller
use epoxy there is no need to remove the paper to bond something to
it. The paper is very strong and well attached to the wood. The
joint will fail at the wood not paper.
I very much like glassing over epoxy. It is a great surface to start
with so there is little or no surface prep.
One of the greatest advantages to MDO is the fact that you don't need
to use epoxy and fiberglass to get a good enduring Finnish. Though it
is probably still a good idea to glass the bottom for abrasion resistance.
Chris Feller
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steven DAntonio" <sdantonio93@...> wrote:
>
> Back to the MDO board for a minute, "to make a decent joint you need
> to sand down the paper lining on the one side", How well does it take
> glass and epoxy? Do you need to sand off the paper coating in order
> to get good adhesion between the fiberglass or will that epoxy adhear
> well to the paper surface?
>
> Thanks
> Steven
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "S Rose" <paradox_4@> wrote:
> >
> > I spent a fair amount of time trying to find MDO after reading about
> it but
> > had a hard time finding it in Canada (no one in the Stores new what
> I was
> > talking about) eventually I found it under the name "Duraply". It
> comes in
> > one and two sided and is used for making outdoor signs. My first
> boat I used
> > it but to make a decent joint you need to sand down the paper lining
> on the
> > one side but it seems to have worked well for the start. It was a
small
> > project and I gave it two my neighbors kids after a few months. I
> would used
> > it again if that makes a difference.
> >
> >
>
Back to the MDO board for a minute, "to make a decent joint you need
to sand down the paper lining on the one side", How well does it take
glass and epoxy? Do you need to sand off the paper coating in order
to get good adhesion between the fiberglass or will that epoxy adhear
well to the paper surface?
Thanks
Steven
to sand down the paper lining on the one side", How well does it take
glass and epoxy? Do you need to sand off the paper coating in order
to get good adhesion between the fiberglass or will that epoxy adhear
well to the paper surface?
Thanks
Steven
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "S Rose" <paradox_4@...> wrote:
>
> I spent a fair amount of time trying to find MDO after reading about
it but
> had a hard time finding it in Canada (no one in the Stores new what
I was
> talking about) eventually I found it under the name "Duraply". It
comes in
> one and two sided and is used for making outdoor signs. My first
boat I used
> it but to make a decent joint you need to sand down the paper lining
on the
> one side but it seems to have worked well for the start. It was a small
> project and I gave it two my neighbors kids after a few months. I
would used
> it again if that makes a difference.
>
>
Hey Y'all;
Frank McNeill, owner of Cardboard ships and boats, posted this:
"Re: Paper boats mentioned on Phil Bolger group
Waters & Sons was the largest boat factory in the US at the time.
One of their larger boats was equipped with a steam engine. Check in
the links section for Ken's Paper Boat Page.
Over a hundred years ago a prosperous industry emerged in Troy, New
York in the manufacture of rowing boats and canoes from paper. These
ranged from simple single-person rowing shells to a 45 foot "pleasure
barge" that could seat seventeen in addition to its six oarsmen. This
business began in 1867 when Elisha Waters, a Troy NY paper box
manufacturer, and his son George Waters, invented and then patented a
method for constructing boat hulls from paper and shortly thereafter
formed the firm of Waters and Balch, (later to become Waters & Sons.)
In 1875 the New York Daily Graphic credited them with having the
"largest boat factory in the United States."
"
end quote
Forrest
Frank McNeill, owner of Cardboard ships and boats, posted this:
"Re: Paper boats mentioned on Phil Bolger group
Waters & Sons was the largest boat factory in the US at the time.
One of their larger boats was equipped with a steam engine. Check in
the links section for Ken's Paper Boat Page.
Over a hundred years ago a prosperous industry emerged in Troy, New
York in the manufacture of rowing boats and canoes from paper. These
ranged from simple single-person rowing shells to a 45 foot "pleasure
barge" that could seat seventeen in addition to its six oarsmen. This
business began in 1867 when Elisha Waters, a Troy NY paper box
manufacturer, and his son George Waters, invented and then patented a
method for constructing boat hulls from paper and shortly thereafter
formed the firm of Waters and Balch, (later to become Waters & Sons.)
In 1875 the New York Daily Graphic credited them with having the
"largest boat factory in the United States."
"
end quote
Forrest
I love the Diorama
HJ
Forrest Scott Wood wrote:
HJ
Forrest Scott Wood wrote:
> Hey Y'all;
>
> These guys cover mainly miniature but "full size" is welcome:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cardboardshipsandboats/
> later,
> Forrest
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Anderson" <bawrytr@...> wrote:
>
>
Hey Y'all;
These guys cover mainly miniature but "full size" is welcome:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cardboardshipsandboats/
later,
Forrest
These guys cover mainly miniature but "full size" is welcome:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cardboardshipsandboats/
later,
Forrest
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Anderson" <bawrytr@...> wrote:
>
> Or to get really wild and crazy, a titebond II or III paper mache
> canoe, waterproofed with shellac, or some crazy high-tech two part
> varnish or whatever, sort of an updated paper canoe like the one
> Nathanial Holmes Bishop paddled from Upstate New York to Florida in
> the 1880s:
>
>http://kcupery.home.isp-direct.com/SH.html
>
> The crazy thing was, that they actually used the method in the late
> 1800s to make rowing shells for competition, and they worked out
> lighter and stiffer than the wooden ones, and won pretty often.
>
>http://kcupery.home.isp-direct.com/index.html
>
> Cheers, Brian
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@> wrote:
> >
> > wow. a cardboard boat. Next, someone will want to build a canoe
from
> > split wood saplings and birch bark held together with hide
lacings.
> > using no exotic materials whatsoever.
> >
> > David Jost
> > Happy Holidays.
> >
>
I love this thread as it is much more interesting than the typical ACX
vs. Merenti thread. What would work as an alternative to Plywood
boats? Cardboard rubbed well with bear grease? latex paint over
stretched canvas? This really underscores the genius of Platt
Monfort's designs.
This is great food for thought while working on the pre-fab parts in
the workshop while waiting for better fiberglassing weather.
David Jost
vs. Merenti thread. What would work as an alternative to Plywood
boats? Cardboard rubbed well with bear grease? latex paint over
stretched canvas? This really underscores the genius of Platt
Monfort's designs.
This is great food for thought while working on the pre-fab parts in
the workshop while waiting for better fiberglassing weather.
David Jost
It will not rip unless large enough to get a lot of high wind but it
will become more permiable to air and moisture. In construction it
voids the worinty if exposed to long (red lettering fading). Tyvek will
not rip easly but it cuts and gets holes poked through it relativly
easly and personaly I would not use it. I work doing siding for a
living and we have pretty much gone back to felt paper with there being
less rot problems. Just my thoughts with a lot of experiance with
different house wrap products. For plywood boats nothing beats glass
and epoxy. With regards to wood breathing plank needs to breath plywood
and frames need to be sealed for long life.
Jon
will become more permiable to air and moisture. In construction it
voids the worinty if exposed to long (red lettering fading). Tyvek will
not rip easly but it cuts and gets holes poked through it relativly
easly and personaly I would not use it. I work doing siding for a
living and we have pretty much gone back to felt paper with there being
less rot problems. Just my thoughts with a lot of experiance with
different house wrap products. For plywood boats nothing beats glass
and epoxy. With regards to wood breathing plank needs to breath plywood
and frames need to be sealed for long life.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Schumacher" <fredschum@...> wrote:
>
> I kept a piece of Tyvek flapping around on the southwest outside of
my house
> for 10 years. This is in northern Minnesota in ambient temperatures
between
> - 62 and +103. It frayed at the edges but never tore or broke down. I
> finally cut it off. I've been planning to experiment with Tyvek as a
> substitute for fiberglass as an exterior covering for plywood.
>
> Fred Schumacher
About (and I mean about) 20 years ago Wooden Boat had an article about
a couple in England that made a catamaran of 40+ feet with ribs of tied
split willow???? and a skin of layers of butcher paper? and tar.(They
were really short of funds) They said it was very light and strong.
They planned to sail to california with the intent of picking up a
certain type of horse for a circus act they were planning. Last I heard
they'd gone through the Panama Canal. Anybody else remember this??
a couple in England that made a catamaran of 40+ feet with ribs of tied
split willow???? and a skin of layers of butcher paper? and tar.(They
were really short of funds) They said it was very light and strong.
They planned to sail to california with the intent of picking up a
certain type of horse for a circus act they were planning. Last I heard
they'd gone through the Panama Canal. Anybody else remember this??
Or to get really wild and crazy, a titebond II or III paper mache
canoe, waterproofed with shellac, or some crazy high-tech two part
varnish or whatever, sort of an updated paper canoe like the one
Nathanial Holmes Bishop paddled from Upstate New York to Florida in
the 1880s:
http://kcupery.home.isp-direct.com/SH.html
The crazy thing was, that they actually used the method in the late
1800s to make rowing shells for competition, and they worked out
lighter and stiffer than the wooden ones, and won pretty often.
http://kcupery.home.isp-direct.com/index.html
Cheers, Brian
canoe, waterproofed with shellac, or some crazy high-tech two part
varnish or whatever, sort of an updated paper canoe like the one
Nathanial Holmes Bishop paddled from Upstate New York to Florida in
the 1880s:
http://kcupery.home.isp-direct.com/SH.html
The crazy thing was, that they actually used the method in the late
1800s to make rowing shells for competition, and they worked out
lighter and stiffer than the wooden ones, and won pretty often.
http://kcupery.home.isp-direct.com/index.html
Cheers, Brian
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
> wow. a cardboard boat. Next, someone will want to build a canoe from
> split wood saplings and birch bark held together with hide lacings.
> using no exotic materials whatsoever.
>
> David Jost
> Happy Holidays.
>
Seems to me it would need some kind of solvent-based product, like
Duco or PVC pipe cement. What do the guys who make Tyvek sails use?
Duco or PVC pipe cement. What do the guys who make Tyvek sails use?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
>
> Duck Tape LOL The problem with glueing Tyvek is that the Tyvek itself
> will seperate. Tyvek also breakes down from UV.
>
> Jon
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> <wetherillc@> wrote:
> >
> > What adhesive will bond to Tyvek. I believe it is polyethylene.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > figginsco wrote:
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
wow. a cardboard boat. Next, someone will want to build a canoe from
split wood saplings and birch bark held together with hide lacings.
using no exotic materials whatsoever.
David Jost
Happy Holidays.
split wood saplings and birch bark held together with hide lacings.
using no exotic materials whatsoever.
David Jost
Happy Holidays.
I kept a piece of Tyvek flapping around on the southwest outside of my house
for 10 years. This is in northern Minnesota in ambient temperatures between
- 62 and +103. It frayed at the edges but never tore or broke down. I
finally cut it off. I've been planning to experiment with Tyvek as a
substitute for fiberglass as an exterior covering for plywood.
Fred Schumacher
for 10 years. This is in northern Minnesota in ambient temperatures between
- 62 and +103. It frayed at the edges but never tore or broke down. I
finally cut it off. I've been planning to experiment with Tyvek as a
substitute for fiberglass as an exterior covering for plywood.
Fred Schumacher
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...> wrote:
> Duck Tape LOL The problem with glueing Tyvek is that the Tyvek itself
> will seperate. Tyvek also breakes down from UV.
>
> Jon
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Christopher C.
> Wetherill"
> <wetherillc@...> wrote:
> >
> > What adhesive will bond to Tyvek. I believe it is polyethylene.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > figginsco wrote:
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Duck Tape LOL The problem with glueing Tyvek is that the Tyvek itself
will seperate. Tyvek also breakes down from UV.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
will seperate. Tyvek also breakes down from UV.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
>
> What adhesive will bond to Tyvek. I believe it is polyethylene.
>
> Chris
>
> figginsco wrote:
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
What adhesive will bond to Tyvek. I believe it is polyethylene.
Chris
figginsco wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris
figginsco wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "givifreak007" <givifreak007@...> wrote:
right on, I have been thinking along those same lines. Would be
interested in what your testing shows. No use all of us reinventing
the wheel. How are you planning keeping the cardboard dry? You know
there is a cardboard like plastic product used in sign making. Plastic
supply companies carry it. Please keep us lunitics informed.
Dave
>design..?
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <dschurricanes@> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's
> >polyurethane) over double-
> I'm planning on using a tyvek laminate (made with waterproof
> walled cardboard to build an Elegant Punt this Spring. I'mcurrently testing various grades
> of glue and tyvek for the best bonding strength.Hi Kevin
>
> Kevin
>
right on, I have been thinking along those same lines. Would be
interested in what your testing shows. No use all of us reinventing
the wheel. How are you planning keeping the cardboard dry? You know
there is a cardboard like plastic product used in sign making. Plastic
supply companies carry it. Please keep us lunitics informed.
Dave
I agree here. I am in the process of glassing the 18' workskiff. this
takes up an awful lot of epoxy and glass, but the weight should
actually help the intended purpose of being a rather unmoveable beast
with a fishing rod, or clam rake in hand.
David Jost
takes up an awful lot of epoxy and glass, but the weight should
actually help the intended purpose of being a rather unmoveable beast
with a fishing rod, or clam rake in hand.
David Jost
Kevin,
To quote Oscar Levant: "There is a fine line between genius and
insanity. I have erased that line."
Keep us informed, and let us know which hospital to send the flowers
and cards to <G>
Cheers,
David G
******************
To quote Oscar Levant: "There is a fine line between genius and
insanity. I have erased that line."
Keep us informed, and let us know which hospital to send the flowers
and cards to <G>
Cheers,
David G
******************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "givifreak007" <givifreak007@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <dschurricanes@> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's
design..?
> >
> I'm planning on using a tyvek laminate (made with waterproof
polyurethane) over double-
> walled cardboard to build an Elegant Punt this Spring. I'm
currently testing various grades
> of glue and tyvek for the best bonding strength.
>
> Kevin
>
Both sides? I'm surprised, I've read in many books that wood even plywood
needs air to breathe thus one side only. Older books often refer to "paint
outside oil inside"
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Bruce Hallman
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:14 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
Having worked a lot with ACX and boats, I strongly agree it needs
glassing of both sides.
A heavy boat is not all bad, because the increase in durability and
improvement to stability are good things.
One issue with a Teal, like all double ended boats, the 12 foot length
has the same carrying capacity as a 10 foot transom boat, or an 8 foot
punt boat.
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:29 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@
<mailto:dschurricanes%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com> wrote:
needs air to breathe thus one side only. Older books often refer to "paint
outside oil inside"
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Bruce Hallman
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:14 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
Having worked a lot with ACX and boats, I strongly agree it needs
glassing of both sides.
A heavy boat is not all bad, because the increase in durability and
improvement to stability are good things.
One issue with a Teal, like all double ended boats, the 12 foot length
has the same carrying capacity as a 10 foot transom boat, or an 8 foot
punt boat.
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:29 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@
<mailto:dschurricanes%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com> wrote:
> This might sound crazy but I have read on some sites about the ACX plywoodweights
> thing & they tell me to glass it all... now we have a 12 footer that
> a ton..I like mussing with boats painting & fixing things... to me its all[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> part of having a wood boat...Don
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
walled cardboard to build an Elegant Punt this Spring. I'm currently testing various grades
of glue and tyvek for the best bonding strength.
Kevin
>I'm planning on using a tyvek laminate (made with waterproof polyurethane) over double-
> Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's design..?
>
walled cardboard to build an Elegant Punt this Spring. I'm currently testing various grades
of glue and tyvek for the best bonding strength.
Kevin
>The ideal boat is light enough to carry on your shoulder,Dynamite Sailboard
Teal
Queen Mab
Cartoon 5
June Bug (maybe)
Kotic
Minimum Kayak
Elegant Punt
Light Dories (maybe)
Yellow Leaf
Eeek!!
Tortoise
Boxer (maybe)
Poohsticks
Fieldmouse
Nymph
Shoebox
Brick (maybe)
Cruising Kayak ...
or large enough to live aboard.
>
But nobody makes 1/4" MDO. <sob>
On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 08:06:44 -0800, David G wrote:
> ...
> These days, though, I'd use MDO. Similar, though frequently better,
> core and face - with a factory applied overlay of kraft paper and
> phenolic resin. No glassing required to stop checking. Very durable.
> Cheaper overall that the plywood + the glass & resin.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
There is no greater gift to an insecure leader that quite
matches a vague enemy who can be used to whip up fear and hatred
among the population. <Paul Rusesabagina>
Thanks, John!
--- John Kohnen <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
--- John Kohnen <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
> "Marine Tech" is a plywood manufactured by PlumIt was impossible to get a conversation going, everybody was talking too much. - Yogi Berra
> Creek for marine
> construction but, "does not qualify as a "marine"
> plywood under APBA
> specifications," according to Glen-L:
>
>http://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/marine-tech.html+
>
>http://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/wp-index.html
>
> On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:50:05 -0800, Dave wrote:
>
> > Can anyone tell me what is meant by the term
> "marine tech" plywood?
> > Is that just another way of saying marine ply?
> Thanks!
>
> --
> John <jkohnen@...>
> There is a custom, amounting almost to tradition,
> that true boat
> speeds are obscene and must never be mentioned
> except in a
> highly dressed up state. <Lindsay Lord>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming,
> respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
"Marine Tech" is a plywood manufactured by Plum Creek for marine
construction but, "does not qualify as a "marine" plywood under APBA
specifications," according to Glen-L:
http://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/marine-tech.html+
http://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/wp-index.html
construction but, "does not qualify as a "marine" plywood under APBA
specifications," according to Glen-L:
http://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/marine-tech.html+
http://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/wp-index.html
On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:50:05 -0800, Dave wrote:
> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the term "marine tech" plywood?
> Is that just another way of saying marine ply? Thanks!
--
John <jkohnen@...>
There is a custom, amounting almost to tradition, that true boat
speeds are obscene and must never be mentioned except in a
highly dressed up state. <Lindsay Lord>
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
and without the fine finish work. Then take it out boating.
A plain wood Teal, joints waterproofed with caulk, is fully FUNctional
and can be built in just a few hours.
The time consuming work, epoxy/glass/sanding, etc. is all unnecessary
for having fun in that boat. (It is only needed for looks, and for
longevity.) It is OK to make and use a Teal as a disposable fun boat.
> Hi Bruce...This winter I'm building a boat...Next winter its models..I wasMy suggestion is to build the Teal without fiberglass, without paint
> very anxious to build.. after reading & mistakes I have made I will do
> models ...during the winter...Don
and without the fine finish work. Then take it out boating.
A plain wood Teal, joints waterproofed with caulk, is fully FUNctional
and can be built in just a few hours.
The time consuming work, epoxy/glass/sanding, etc. is all unnecessary
for having fun in that boat. (It is only needed for looks, and for
longevity.) It is OK to make and use a Teal as a disposable fun boat.
Hi Bruce...This winter I'm building a boat...Next winter its models..I was very anxious to build.. after reading & mistakes I have made I will do models ...during the winter...Don
--- On Thu, 12/4/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:18 PM
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@ yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Bruce...I will let you guys know how things work out...Its a very
> learning experience for me so far . I have a lot to learn...Don
Great. You allude to my personal theory about boat building. Cheap
materials allow you to quickly make many cheap boats. Making boats is
the best way to learn how to make boats. I believe that after
building ten boats, then it makes sense to use the best materials and
to make that "museum piece". In the mean time, it is great to make
many quick cheap boats for the learning experience.
Indeed, to this end, I am a big fan of making boat scale models. Both
physically, and with computer modeling. Models are a great way to
learn about boats and boat building.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
materials allow you to quickly make many cheap boats. Making boats is
the best way to learn how to make boats. I believe that after
building ten boats, then it makes sense to use the best materials and
to make that "museum piece". In the mean time, it is great to make
many quick cheap boats for the learning experience.
Indeed, to this end, I am a big fan of making boat scale models. Both
physically, and with computer modeling. Models are a great way to
learn about boats and boat building.
> Hi Bruce...I will let you guys know how things work out...Its a veryGreat. You allude to my personal theory about boat building. Cheap
> learning experience for me so far . I have a lot to learn...Don
materials allow you to quickly make many cheap boats. Making boats is
the best way to learn how to make boats. I believe that after
building ten boats, then it makes sense to use the best materials and
to make that "museum piece". In the mean time, it is great to make
many quick cheap boats for the learning experience.
Indeed, to this end, I am a big fan of making boat scale models. Both
physically, and with computer modeling. Models are a great way to
learn about boats and boat building.
Bruce,
Apparently, they do make it in a 5/16". I haven't seen it at my local
supplier, but would imagine that - like most softwood plywoods - it's
a nominal 5/16" - and is actually a bit undersized. That would make it
mighty close to a real 1/4". I've not seen it at my local supplier
(they only stock the 3/4"... for the signmakers) but wouldn't expect
it to be different in overall quality. You'd probably have to have
your supplier order it, or oreder it yourself direct from Olypanel.
http://www.olypanel.com/signMaking/
G'luck,
David G
Harbor Woodworks
"Much speech is one thing, well timed speech is another" -- Sophocles
******************
Apparently, they do make it in a 5/16". I haven't seen it at my local
supplier, but would imagine that - like most softwood plywoods - it's
a nominal 5/16" - and is actually a bit undersized. That would make it
mighty close to a real 1/4". I've not seen it at my local supplier
(they only stock the 3/4"... for the signmakers) but wouldn't expect
it to be different in overall quality. You'd probably have to have
your supplier order it, or oreder it yourself direct from Olypanel.
http://www.olypanel.com/signMaking/
G'luck,
David G
Harbor Woodworks
"Much speech is one thing, well timed speech is another" -- Sophocles
******************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:06 AM, David <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> > These days, though, I'd use MDO. Similar, though frequently better,
> > core and face - with a factory applied overlay of kraft paper and
> > phenolic resin.
>
> Indeed, paper fiber and resin is not much different than glass fiber
and resin.
>
> If only the mills made MDO plywood in 1/4" thickness, then we would be
> in heaven.
>
Hi Bruce...I will let you guys know how things work out...Its a very learning experience for me so far . I have a lot to learn...Don
--- On Thu, 12/4/08, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 10:13 AM
Having worked a lot with ACX and boats, I strongly agree it needs
glassing of both sides.
A heavy boat is not all bad, because the increase in durability and
improvement to stability are good things.
One issue with a Teal, like all double ended boats, the 12 foot length
has the same carrying capacity as a 10 foot transom boat, or an 8 foot
punt boat.
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:29 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@ yahoo.com> wrote:
> This might sound crazy but I have read on some sites about the ACX plywood
> thing & they tell me to glass it all... now we have a 12 footer that weights
> a ton..I like mussing with boats painting & fixing things... to me its all
> part of having a wood boat...Don
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Dave thanks for the info...Don
--- On Thu, 12/4/08, David <arbordg@...> wrote:
From: David <arbordg@...>
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 11:06 AM
My family was in the plywood biz here in Oregon for many years. I'm a
professional woodworker/boatbuil der. I've done a number of projects
with marine grade douglas fir plywood. Certainly it will check if left
outside and not glassed. Paint alone will not stop the process. Just
keep in mind that it doesn't take much glass to halt the checking... 2
oz. fiberglass cloth with epoxy resin will do the trick.
These days, though, I'd use MDO. Similar, though frequently better,
core and face - with a factory applied overlay of kraft paper and
phenolic resin. No glassing required to stop checking. Very durable.
Cheaper overall that the plywood + the glass & resin.
Cheers,
David G
Harbor Woodworks
"Simplicity is not the goal. It is the byproduct of a good idea and
modest expectations" -- Paul Rand
************ ******
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@ ...> wrote:
>
> This might sound crazy but I have read on some sites about the ACX
plywood thing & they tell me to glass it all... now we have a 12
footer that weights a ton..I like mussing with boats painting & fixing
things... to me its all part of having a wood boat...Don
>
> --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
> To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 11:15 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@
yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hi guys.... I'm building Teal out of 3/8's ACX I have the sides
pulled in &
> > have started on the chines....I will let you know how things work
out... Don
>
> Sounds good, keep us posted. For what it is worth, when I built my
> Teal out of 1/4" plywood, (without much attention to keeping the
> weight down), I ended up unsatisfied because the boat weighed too much
> and carrying it around it was *not* fun. I ended up giving it away
> and building a lighter boat. I will paraphrase the truism (I think
> from Phil Bolger): The ideal boat is light enough to carry on your
> shoulder, or large enough to live aboard.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:06 AM, David <arbordg@...> wrote:
If only the mills made MDO plywood in 1/4" thickness, then we would be
in heaven.
> These days, though, I'd use MDO. Similar, though frequently better,Indeed, paper fiber and resin is not much different than glass fiber and resin.
> core and face - with a factory applied overlay of kraft paper and
> phenolic resin.
If only the mills made MDO plywood in 1/4" thickness, then we would be
in heaven.
My family was in the plywood biz here in Oregon for many years. I'm a
professional woodworker/boatbuilder. I've done a number of projects
with marine grade douglas fir plywood. Certainly it will check if left
outside and not glassed. Paint alone will not stop the process. Just
keep in mind that it doesn't take much glass to halt the checking... 2
oz. fiberglass cloth with epoxy resin will do the trick.
These days, though, I'd use MDO. Similar, though frequently better,
core and face - with a factory applied overlay of kraft paper and
phenolic resin. No glassing required to stop checking. Very durable.
Cheaper overall that the plywood + the glass & resin.
Cheers,
David G
Harbor Woodworks
"Simplicity is not the goal. It is the byproduct of a good idea and
modest expectations" -- Paul Rand
******************
professional woodworker/boatbuilder. I've done a number of projects
with marine grade douglas fir plywood. Certainly it will check if left
outside and not glassed. Paint alone will not stop the process. Just
keep in mind that it doesn't take much glass to halt the checking... 2
oz. fiberglass cloth with epoxy resin will do the trick.
These days, though, I'd use MDO. Similar, though frequently better,
core and face - with a factory applied overlay of kraft paper and
phenolic resin. No glassing required to stop checking. Very durable.
Cheaper overall that the plywood + the glass & resin.
Cheers,
David G
Harbor Woodworks
"Simplicity is not the goal. It is the byproduct of a good idea and
modest expectations" -- Paul Rand
******************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
>
> This might sound crazy but I have read on some sites about the ACX
plywood thing & they tell me to glass it all... now we have a 12
footer that weights a ton..I like mussing with boats painting & fixing
things... to me its all part of having a wood boat...Don
>
> --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 11:15 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@
yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hi guys.... I'm building Teal out of 3/8's ACX I have the sides
pulled in &
> > have started on the chines....I will let you know how things work
out... Don
>
> Sounds good, keep us posted. For what it is worth, when I built my
> Teal out of 1/4" plywood, (without much attention to keeping the
> weight down), I ended up unsatisfied because the boat weighed too much
> and carrying it around it was *not* fun. I ended up giving it away
> and building a lighter boat. I will paraphrase the truism (I think
> from Phil Bolger): The ideal boat is light enough to carry on your
> shoulder, or large enough to live aboard.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Having worked a lot with ACX and boats, I strongly agree it needs
glassing of both sides.
A heavy boat is not all bad, because the increase in durability and
improvement to stability are good things.
One issue with a Teal, like all double ended boats, the 12 foot length
has the same carrying capacity as a 10 foot transom boat, or an 8 foot
punt boat.
glassing of both sides.
A heavy boat is not all bad, because the increase in durability and
improvement to stability are good things.
One issue with a Teal, like all double ended boats, the 12 foot length
has the same carrying capacity as a 10 foot transom boat, or an 8 foot
punt boat.
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:29 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
> This might sound crazy but I have read on some sites about the ACX plywood
> thing & they tell me to glass it all... now we have a 12 footer that weights
> a ton..I like mussing with boats painting & fixing things... to me its all
> part of having a wood boat...Don
This might sound crazy but I have read on some sites about the ACX plywood thing & they tell me to glass it all... now we have a 12 footer that weights a ton..I like mussing with boats painting & fixing things... to me its all part of having a wood boat...Don
--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 11:15 AM
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@ yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi guys.... I'm building Teal out of 3/8's ACX I have the sides pulled in &
> have started on the chines....I will let you know how things work out... Don
Sounds good, keep us posted. For what it is worth, when I built my
Teal out of 1/4" plywood, (without much attention to keeping the
weight down), I ended up unsatisfied because the boat weighed too much
and carrying it around it was *not* fun. I ended up giving it away
and building a lighter boat. I will paraphrase the truism (I think
from Phil Bolger): The ideal boat is light enough to carry on your
shoulder, or large enough to live aboard.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
Teal out of 1/4" plywood, (without much attention to keeping the
weight down), I ended up unsatisfied because the boat weighed too much
and carrying it around it was *not* fun. I ended up giving it away
and building a lighter boat. I will paraphrase the truism (I think
from Phil Bolger): The ideal boat is light enough to carry on your
shoulder, or large enough to live aboard.
> Hi guys.... I'm building Teal out of 3/8's ACX I have the sides pulled in &Sounds good, keep us posted. For what it is worth, when I built my
> have started on the chines....I will let you know how things work out... Don
Teal out of 1/4" plywood, (without much attention to keeping the
weight down), I ended up unsatisfied because the boat weighed too much
and carrying it around it was *not* fun. I ended up giving it away
and building a lighter boat. I will paraphrase the truism (I think
from Phil Bolger): The ideal boat is light enough to carry on your
shoulder, or large enough to live aboard.
Hi guys.... I'm building Teal out of 3/8's ACX I have the sides pulled in & have started on the chines....I will let you know how things work out... Don
--- On Wed, 12/3/08, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:
From: adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...>
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 9:51 AM
Hi Bruce,
> For simple small boats intended to last a few years, cheap materials
> make a lot of sense.
Agreed. Not only can you get on the water more cheaply, but it's
cheaper to try different designs. I've built 11 boats using lumberyard
AC, and most of these wouldn't have made sense to try if I was using
expensive marine ply all the time.
Unfortunately, AC isn't what it used to be, and I've about had it with
filling all the checks and voids, especially in the C-side of the 1/2"
material I've been using lately. In fact, today I'm placing an order
for some marine Meranti for a new winter project. I'm looking forward
to trying this high-end stuff - I just hope the shippers don't destroy
it enroute.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures .com/boatbuildin g_index.htm
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Bruce,
cheaper to try different designs. I've built 11 boats using lumberyard
AC, and most of these wouldn't have made sense to try if I was using
expensive marine ply all the time.
Unfortunately, AC isn't what it used to be, and I've about had it with
filling all the checks and voids, especially in the C-side of the 1/2"
material I've been using lately. In fact, today I'm placing an order
for some marine Meranti for a new winter project. I'm looking forward
to trying this high-end stuff - I just hope the shippers don't destroy
it enroute.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> For simple small boats intended to last a few years, cheap materialsAgreed. Not only can you get on the water more cheaply, but it's
> make a lot of sense.
cheaper to try different designs. I've built 11 boats using lumberyard
AC, and most of these wouldn't have made sense to try if I was using
expensive marine ply all the time.
Unfortunately, AC isn't what it used to be, and I've about had it with
filling all the checks and voids, especially in the C-side of the 1/2"
material I've been using lately. In fact, today I'm placing an order
for some marine Meranti for a new winter project. I'm looking forward
to trying this high-end stuff - I just hope the shippers don't destroy
it enroute.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Can anyone tell me what is meant by the term "marine tech" plywood?
Is that just another way of saying marine ply? Thanks!
Dave
Is that just another way of saying marine ply? Thanks!
Dave
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
>
> I think you where miss told in part. As a grade standard the X has no
> meaning it is a user end distinction. AB AC CD are all face grades for
> front and back. Group 1 Group 2 ect.. ade about core and gluing. X is
> just added to the face grade for exterior glued for simplifacation in
> the building industry. Not all Luan is 1088 unless stamped on face or
> edge. Some may be interior glued and some places will tell you that.
> John K in the next post is correct in epoxy and glass not changing a C
> into a A or inproving its quality much.
>
> Jon
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steven DAntonio" <sdantonio93@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I remember there being a discussion about this a year or so ago. One
> > thing I remember from that discussion is that the "x" in ACX does not
> > stand for exterior as is commonly thought. Someone back then quoted a
> > plywood manufacturing oversight board who stated that the x means that
> > the middle layers are undefined and can be pine, poplar or any variety
> > of cheep woods.
> >
> > I also remember that luan passed 1088
> >
> > Steven
>
> boats. But the el cheapo lauan underlayment found at the big box stores isThis discussion thread occurs again and again. <Smile>
> junk,
I have found both good lauan and bad lauan in the local Home Depot,
and the bad lauan is pretty bad because it rots and delaminates
quickly. The good lauan stood up to use for many years.
My personal belief is that boats are not intended to last forever.
With practice building boats is easy. For small boats it can also be
very quick.
For simple small boats intended to last a few years, cheap materials
make a lot of sense.
That said, I personally avoid the 3 ply CDX because it warps. I do
like the quality per price of the 5 ply CDX 1/2" plywood they sell
here in California (which comes from the Oregon mills).
Marine plywood made with lauan could be made to pass the British 1088
standard (BTW, apparently you can't trust that "BS 1088" plywood bought in
the US really is, because the standard is only enforced in the UK, or so
I've been told...). As a wood, lauan isn't bad stuff. It used to be called
"Philippine Mahogany" and was considered to be pretty good for planking
boats. But the el cheapo lauan underlayment found at the big box stores is
junk, and no British plywood inspector would give it any sort of marine
plywood rating. In fact it's probably below _any_ standard for structural
use. But that didn't stop me from building my PDR out of it. <g> Never
again...
How come you're so well behaved here, Jon. ;o)
standard (BTW, apparently you can't trust that "BS 1088" plywood bought in
the US really is, because the standard is only enforced in the UK, or so
I've been told...). As a wood, lauan isn't bad stuff. It used to be called
"Philippine Mahogany" and was considered to be pretty good for planking
boats. But the el cheapo lauan underlayment found at the big box stores is
junk, and no British plywood inspector would give it any sort of marine
plywood rating. In fact it's probably below _any_ standard for structural
use. But that didn't stop me from building my PDR out of it. <g> Never
again...
How come you're so well behaved here, Jon. ;o)
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:52:20 -0800, JonA wrote:
> ...
> Not all Luan is 1088 unless stamped on face or
> edge. Some may be interior glued and some places will tell you that.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
A belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men
alone are quite capable of every wickedness. <Joseph Conrad>
Hear Hear !!
HJ
Every time I build a boat out of el cheapo plywood, whether AC fir or
HJ
Every time I build a boat out of el cheapo plywood, whether AC fir or
> Lauan, I swear I'll never do it again! The cheap stuff is just too much
> work compared to good marine plywood. :o( If you start slathering epoxy
> over the cheap stuff to make it better it's just more work, and destroys
> much of the "economy" you were aiming for when you bought the cheapo
> plywood. :ob
>
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:36:05 -0800, HJ wrote:
>
>> I have a little different take on this. I won't use AC on any thing but
>> a throwaway
>> boat that takes minimal time....
>> When you put in that
>> much work on a boat you need to use materials that insure some
>> longevity. Rather
>> than using Epoxy to add longevity to poor quality wood you can use good
>> plywood and
>> save the time and money.
>> ...
>
> --
> John <jkohnen@...>
> History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in
> times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant
> to endure. <Thurgood Marshall>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups
> Links
>
>
>
>
I think you where miss told in part. As a grade standard the X has no
meaning it is a user end distinction. AB AC CD are all face grades for
front and back. Group 1 Group 2 ect.. ade about core and gluing. X is
just added to the face grade for exterior glued for simplifacation in
the building industry. Not all Luan is 1088 unless stamped on face or
edge. Some may be interior glued and some places will tell you that.
John K in the next post is correct in epoxy and glass not changing a C
into a A or inproving its quality much.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steven DAntonio" <sdantonio93@...>
wrote:
meaning it is a user end distinction. AB AC CD are all face grades for
front and back. Group 1 Group 2 ect.. ade about core and gluing. X is
just added to the face grade for exterior glued for simplifacation in
the building industry. Not all Luan is 1088 unless stamped on face or
edge. Some may be interior glued and some places will tell you that.
John K in the next post is correct in epoxy and glass not changing a C
into a A or inproving its quality much.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steven DAntonio" <sdantonio93@...>
wrote:
>
> I remember there being a discussion about this a year or so ago. One
> thing I remember from that discussion is that the "x" in ACX does not
> stand for exterior as is commonly thought. Someone back then quoted a
> plywood manufacturing oversight board who stated that the x means that
> the middle layers are undefined and can be pine, poplar or any variety
> of cheep woods.
>
> I also remember that luan passed 1088
>
> Steven
Every time I build a boat out of el cheapo plywood, whether AC fir or
Lauan, I swear I'll never do it again! The cheap stuff is just too much
work compared to good marine plywood. :o( If you start slathering epoxy
over the cheap stuff to make it better it's just more work, and destroys
much of the "economy" you were aiming for when you bought the cheapo
plywood. :ob
Lauan, I swear I'll never do it again! The cheap stuff is just too much
work compared to good marine plywood. :o( If you start slathering epoxy
over the cheap stuff to make it better it's just more work, and destroys
much of the "economy" you were aiming for when you bought the cheapo
plywood. :ob
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:36:05 -0800, HJ wrote:
> I have a little different take on this. I won't use AC on any thing but
> a throwaway
> boat that takes minimal time....
> When you put in that
> much work on a boat you need to use materials that insure some
> longevity. Rather
> than using Epoxy to add longevity to poor quality wood you can use good
> plywood and
> save the time and money.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in
times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant
to endure. <Thurgood Marshall>
I remember there being a discussion about this a year or so ago. One
thing I remember from that discussion is that the "x" in ACX does not
stand for exterior as is commonly thought. Someone back then quoted a
plywood manufacturing oversight board who stated that the x means that
the middle layers are undefined and can be pine, poplar or any variety
of cheep woods.
I also remember that luan passed 1088
Steven
thing I remember from that discussion is that the "x" in ACX does not
stand for exterior as is commonly thought. Someone back then quoted a
plywood manufacturing oversight board who stated that the x means that
the middle layers are undefined and can be pine, poplar or any variety
of cheep woods.
I also remember that luan passed 1088
Steven
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "titanicslim" <titanicslim@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@> wrote:
> >
> > To start what is called ACX today and what was called ACX 10 or more
> > years ago are not the same beast.
> > Jon
>
> From what you say, it sounds as though they have changed the glue or
> gluing process. The stuff I've seen at my local Lowe's store isn't
> even labeled "exterior". There is a disclaimer of sorts on the
> placard saying not to use it where it's open to the elements. Forgot
> the exact wording. I asked the dude at the Customer Service [sic]
> desk where the exterior panels were and got a blank look. If I go
> across the street, the locally-owned yard has what look like the usual
> old APA stamped panels and actually call it "exterior".
>
> Have the standards changed all across the industry or are there just
> some that are trying to save a few cents to the detriment of their
> customers' work?
>
> One more thing: I couldn't find a "dealer locater" link on that MDO
> page. Where would one look for those sign panels here in Middle Earth?
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
I spent a fair amount of time trying to find MDO after reading about it but
had a hard time finding it in Canada (no one in the Stores new what I was
talking about) eventually I found it under the name "Duraply". It comes in
one and two sided and is used for making outdoor signs. My first boat I used
it but to make a decent joint you need to sand down the paper lining on the
one side but it seems to have worked well for the start. It was a small
project and I gave it two my neighbors kids after a few months. I would used
it again if that makes a difference.
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Joe Stromski
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 6:29 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Plywood 101
Straight from Bob Vila's website:
Called MDO, or medium density overlay, it's engineered plywood
<http://www.bobvila
<http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html>
com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html#> with a
resin treated fiber applied to both faces. This gives an extremely
smooth finish that is easy to paint. In addition it's rated for exterior
use, which means it is safe from the elements, insects, or other outdoor
hazards, making it a perfect choice for the new deck or porch
<http://www.bobvila
<http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html>
com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html#>.
Its commonly used for road signs, and quite a few boats have been made
from it over the years. Good stuff.....
Regards,
Joe
Roger Padvorac wrote:
had a hard time finding it in Canada (no one in the Stores new what I was
talking about) eventually I found it under the name "Duraply". It comes in
one and two sided and is used for making outdoor signs. My first boat I used
it but to make a decent joint you need to sand down the paper lining on the
one side but it seems to have worked well for the start. It was a small
project and I gave it two my neighbors kids after a few months. I would used
it again if that makes a difference.
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Joe Stromski
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 6:29 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Plywood 101
Straight from Bob Vila's website:
Called MDO, or medium density overlay, it's engineered plywood
<http://www.bobvila
<http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html>
com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html#> with a
resin treated fiber applied to both faces. This gives an extremely
smooth finish that is easy to paint. In addition it's rated for exterior
use, which means it is safe from the elements, insects, or other outdoor
hazards, making it a perfect choice for the new deck or porch
<http://www.bobvila
<http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html>
com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html#>.
Its commonly used for road signs, and quite a few boats have been made
from it over the years. Good stuff.....
Regards,
Joe
Roger Padvorac wrote:
><mailto:j.stromski%40sbcglobal.net> l.net
> Hi Joe,
> What is "MDO"?
>
> Sincerely,
> Roger
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Stromski" <j.stromski@sbcgloba
> <mailto:j.stromski%40sbcglobal.net>><mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups. <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> com
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:48 PM[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Plywood 101
>
> > I'm currently building a Michalak AF4 out of some very nice 1/4
> "premium baltic birch underlayment" obtained from my local Menard's.
> > ...
> > The bottom panels call for 1/2, so I'm using MDO there, sourced from
> Menards also.
> > ...
> > Regards,
> > Joe
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
To start with big box homeowner stores dont always offer the best
quality or price so buyer be ware. Lumber yards contractors deal with
need to provide a better product but even it needs to be hand picked.
Contractor yards can often get MDO or ABX if they dont stock it
though you may want to shop around at them. Tell them you are
building a boat it normaly gets a smily and better help. Most sign
shops use MDO tell them you are building a boat and aske where they
get theres.
The quality of all layers of the plywood has gone down over the years
in what is used to lay it up and the cores can have some real garbage
in them you cant see on the edge but may find when you cut them.
Grade standards to still make grad is lower. The glue has also
changed in chemistry with all the cancer scares and fermeldahide
scares. APA is a industry self standard the glues are due to State
and Federal laws. I saw some CDX the other day that had gotten rained
on just one night and the face was buckeling up 1/2" in riples all
the way across on the good side working on a house. The reason I use
MDO is it is less then Marine and even has more glue. MDO works good
and in some ways better.
Olymic Ply upgraded there page and removed the E-Mail link but they
may be able to tell you over the phone who in your area carries it
they are in Olypia Wa. USA
Jon
quality or price so buyer be ware. Lumber yards contractors deal with
need to provide a better product but even it needs to be hand picked.
Contractor yards can often get MDO or ABX if they dont stock it
though you may want to shop around at them. Tell them you are
building a boat it normaly gets a smily and better help. Most sign
shops use MDO tell them you are building a boat and aske where they
get theres.
The quality of all layers of the plywood has gone down over the years
in what is used to lay it up and the cores can have some real garbage
in them you cant see on the edge but may find when you cut them.
Grade standards to still make grad is lower. The glue has also
changed in chemistry with all the cancer scares and fermeldahide
scares. APA is a industry self standard the glues are due to State
and Federal laws. I saw some CDX the other day that had gotten rained
on just one night and the face was buckeling up 1/2" in riples all
the way across on the good side working on a house. The reason I use
MDO is it is less then Marine and even has more glue. MDO works good
and in some ways better.
Olymic Ply upgraded there page and removed the E-Mail link but they
may be able to tell you over the phone who in your area carries it
they are in Olypia Wa. USA
Jon
> From what you say, it sounds as though they have changed the glue orForgot
> gluing process. The stuff I've seen at my local Lowe's store isn't
> even labeled "exterior". There is a disclaimer of sorts on the
> placard saying not to use it where it's open to the elements.
> the exact wording. I asked the dude at the Customer Service [sic]usual
> desk where the exterior panels were and got a blank look. If I go
> across the street, the locally-owned yard has what look like the
> old APA stamped panels and actually call it "exterior".Earth?
>
> Have the standards changed all across the industry or are there just
> some that are trying to save a few cents to the detriment of their
> customers' work?
>
> One more thing: I couldn't find a "dealer locater" link on that MDO
> page. Where would one look for those sign panels here in Middle
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
I've used AC to good effect. When I was a teenager you could get 1/4
inch ACX for five something and couldn't tell the difference between
the A and C sides..... I'd suggest putting the C side out and
fiberglassing that and treat the inside with S3 penetrating epoxy
sealer and then it won't check. Better would be to spend the extra on
okume or similar as the cost of the plywood is a relatively small
fraction of the cost of a boat. robert
inch ACX for five something and couldn't tell the difference between
the A and C sides..... I'd suggest putting the C side out and
fiberglassing that and treat the inside with S3 penetrating epoxy
sealer and then it won't check. Better would be to spend the extra on
okume or similar as the cost of the plywood is a relatively small
fraction of the cost of a boat. robert
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's design..?
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
gluing process. The stuff I've seen at my local Lowe's store isn't
even labeled "exterior". There is a disclaimer of sorts on the
placard saying not to use it where it's open to the elements. Forgot
the exact wording. I asked the dude at the Customer Service [sic]
desk where the exterior panels were and got a blank look. If I go
across the street, the locally-owned yard has what look like the usual
old APA stamped panels and actually call it "exterior".
Have the standards changed all across the industry or are there just
some that are trying to save a few cents to the detriment of their
customers' work?
One more thing: I couldn't find a "dealer locater" link on that MDO
page. Where would one look for those sign panels here in Middle Earth?
Thanks,
Dave
>From what you say, it sounds as though they have changed the glue or
> To start what is called ACX today and what was called ACX 10 or more
> years ago are not the same beast.
> Jon
gluing process. The stuff I've seen at my local Lowe's store isn't
even labeled "exterior". There is a disclaimer of sorts on the
placard saying not to use it where it's open to the elements. Forgot
the exact wording. I asked the dude at the Customer Service [sic]
desk where the exterior panels were and got a blank look. If I go
across the street, the locally-owned yard has what look like the usual
old APA stamped panels and actually call it "exterior".
Have the standards changed all across the industry or are there just
some that are trying to save a few cents to the detriment of their
customers' work?
One more thing: I couldn't find a "dealer locater" link on that MDO
page. Where would one look for those sign panels here in Middle Earth?
Thanks,
Dave
This will help youhttp://www.olypanel.com/signMaking/Signal grade is
the best for boat building.
Jon
the best for boat building.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Padvorac" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
> What is "MDO"?
>
> Sincerely,
> Roger
Straight from Bob Vila's website:
Called MDO, or medium density overlay, it's engineered plywood
<http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html#> with a
resin treated fiber applied to both faces. This gives an extremely
smooth finish that is easy to paint. In addition it's rated for exterior
use, which means it is safe from the elements, insects, or other outdoor
hazards, making it a perfect choice for the new deck or porch
<http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html#>.
Its commonly used for road signs, and quite a few boats have been made
from it over the years. Good stuff.....
Regards,
Joe
Roger Padvorac wrote:
Called MDO, or medium density overlay, it's engineered plywood
<http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html#> with a
resin treated fiber applied to both faces. This gives an extremely
smooth finish that is easy to paint. In addition it's rated for exterior
use, which means it is safe from the elements, insects, or other outdoor
hazards, making it a perfect choice for the new deck or porch
<http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/MDO_Plywood--T299.html#>.
Its commonly used for road signs, and quite a few boats have been made
from it over the years. Good stuff.....
Regards,
Joe
Roger Padvorac wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
> What is "MDO"?
>
> Sincerely,
> Roger
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Stromski" <j.stromski@...
> <mailto:j.stromski%40sbcglobal.net>>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Plywood 101
>
> > I'm currently building a Michalak AF4 out of some very nice 1/4
> "premium baltic birch underlayment" obtained from my local Menard's.
> > ...
> > The bottom panels call for 1/2, so I'm using MDO there, sourced from
> Menards also.
> > ...
> > Regards,
> > Joe
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Hi Joe,
What is "MDO"?
Sincerely,
Roger
What is "MDO"?
Sincerely,
Roger
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Stromski" <j.stromski@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Plywood 101
> I'm currently building a Michalak AF4 out of some very nice 1/4 "premium baltic birch underlayment" obtained from my local Menard's.
> ...
> The bottom panels call for 1/2, so I'm using MDO there, sourced from Menards also.
> ...
> Regards,
> Joe
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It is that way for all and then you have to seperate all the realy bad
input.LOL Feal free to E-me at windyjon@msn .com with out the space and
I will try to help.
Jon
input.LOL Feal free to E-me at windyjon@msn .com with out the space and
I will try to help.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Don Ellenbrook <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
> I guess we learn from our mistakes..This is my first boat & I have a
lot to learn..If you care to pass along any information from time to
time..I would appreciate very much... From my family to yours Happy &
Safe Holidays....Don
I'm currently building a Michalak AF4 out of some very nice 1/4 "premium
baltic birch underlayment" obtained from my local Menard's. Very nice
looking stuff compared to the exterior fir I've seen, 5 equal thickness
plys, one really clear face, exterior glue. I'm confident its a good
choice. I understand its made in 3/8 thickness also, but I haven't found
a local source. The bottom panels call for 1/2, so I'm using MDO there,
sourced from Menards also. All plywood seems to vary pretty wildly in
quality these days, so I guess it depends upon the apparent quality of
the stuff you're looking at. If you plan to sheath with epoxy/glass that
will figure into your decision also.
Regards,
Joe
Don wrote:
baltic birch underlayment" obtained from my local Menard's. Very nice
looking stuff compared to the exterior fir I've seen, 5 equal thickness
plys, one really clear face, exterior glue. I'm confident its a good
choice. I understand its made in 3/8 thickness also, but I haven't found
a local source. The bottom panels call for 1/2, so I'm using MDO there,
sourced from Menards also. All plywood seems to vary pretty wildly in
quality these days, so I guess it depends upon the apparent quality of
the stuff you're looking at. If you plan to sheath with epoxy/glass that
will figure into your decision also.
Regards,
Joe
Don wrote:
>
> Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's design..?
>
>
I guess we learn from our mistakes..This is my first boat & I have a lot to learn..If you care to pass along any information from time to time..I would appreciate very much... From my family to yours Happy & Safe Holidays....Don
--- On Sat, 11/29/08, Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...> wrote:
From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...>
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 7:09 PM
To start what is called ACX today and what was called ACX 10 or more
years ago are not the same beast. Any voide in any ply that is not delt
with by filling with epoxy or fillet material can lead to seperation
encapsolated or not. Twice as easly with just paint. My way of dealing
with a core void in the venear butts is to stand on edge drill 1/8"
holes every 6" place tape over hole in bottom edge and inject epoxy
starting at the bottom. As the epoxy starts to come out the next hole
up I masking tape over the injection hole working up till full. Remove
tape as soon as it sets up or before it cures. ABX would be the lowest
grade I would use on any boat for any part you are less likly to have
knot hole voids in the core you cant find.
Jon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To start what is called ACX today and what was called ACX 10 or more
years ago are not the same beast. Any voide in any ply that is not delt
with by filling with epoxy or fillet material can lead to seperation
encapsolated or not. Twice as easly with just paint. My way of dealing
with a core void in the venear butts is to stand on edge drill 1/8"
holes every 6" place tape over hole in bottom edge and inject epoxy
starting at the bottom. As the epoxy starts to come out the next hole
up I masking tape over the injection hole working up till full. Remove
tape as soon as it sets up or before it cures. ABX would be the lowest
grade I would use on any boat for any part you are less likly to have
knot hole voids in the core you cant find.
Jon
years ago are not the same beast. Any voide in any ply that is not delt
with by filling with epoxy or fillet material can lead to seperation
encapsolated or not. Twice as easly with just paint. My way of dealing
with a core void in the venear butts is to stand on edge drill 1/8"
holes every 6" place tape over hole in bottom edge and inject epoxy
starting at the bottom. As the epoxy starts to come out the next hole
up I masking tape over the injection hole working up till full. Remove
tape as soon as it sets up or before it cures. ABX would be the lowest
grade I would use on any boat for any part you are less likly to have
knot hole voids in the core you cant find.
Jon
Don:
I've used AC ply for bits and pieces of boats and for the hull of
Bolger's v-bottom catboat daysailer. As long as it's coated and
painted, it's held up well. The catboat was build with polyester resin -
- the only time I haven't used epoxy -- and I had some rot in the bow
where the glass cracked. It was fairly easily reparable. Can't find AC
ply now where I live, it's either BC pine or luan.
Gary
I've used AC ply for bits and pieces of boats and for the hull of
Bolger's v-bottom catboat daysailer. As long as it's coated and
painted, it's held up well. The catboat was build with polyester resin -
- the only time I haven't used epoxy -- and I had some rot in the bow
where the glass cracked. It was fairly easily reparable. Can't find AC
ply now where I live, it's either BC pine or luan.
Gary
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's
design..?
>
I have a little different take on this. I won't use AC on any thing but a throwaway
boat that takes minimal time. I have built a couple of Elegant Punts with it in the
last couple of years but anything more and I want marine ply or MDO. I still regret
using AC on one of three Gulls that we built a few years ago. When you put in that
much work on a boat you need to use materials that insure some longevity. Rather
than using Epoxy to add longevity to poor quality wood you can use good plywood and
save the time and money. Every AC boat that I have built in the last few years has
had some delamination or splitting on the surface veneers.
HJ
Thanks..for the info...BE safe...Don
boat that takes minimal time. I have built a couple of Elegant Punts with it in the
last couple of years but anything more and I want marine ply or MDO. I still regret
using AC on one of three Gulls that we built a few years ago. When you put in that
much work on a boat you need to use materials that insure some longevity. Rather
than using Epoxy to add longevity to poor quality wood you can use good plywood and
save the time and money. Every AC boat that I have built in the last few years has
had some delamination or splitting on the surface veneers.
HJ
Thanks..for the info...BE safe...Don
>
> --- On Sat, 11/29/08, titanicslim <titanicslim@...> wrote:
>
> From: titanicslim <titanicslim@...>
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 1:31 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "Don" <dschurricanes@ ...> wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's design..?
> Hi, Don
>
> .
>
>
Thanks..for the info...BE safe...Don
--- On Sat, 11/29/08, titanicslim <titanicslim@...> wrote:
From: titanicslim <titanicslim@...>
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 1:31 PM
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "Don" <dschurricanes@ ...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's design..?
Hi, Don
I've made an Auray Punt (best little fishing boat ever) a Nymph, a
Singlehand Schooner, a Bobcat, a couple of Light Dories and a few
non-Bolger boats out of ACX. The ones I still know of are doing well
under new owners, with the exception of one, which was not maintained.
I take special pains to ensure that the C-side is saturated well with
straight epoxy, then puttied, and that any voids are dealt with. I
inject thin epoxy and push it into the void as far as I can with a
piece of wire. Sometimes I've been known to blow epoxy into a void.
Try to go through the pile at the lumberyard and select the clearest
panels. Anyway, if they won't let you select your material, for a
boat, go to a lumberyard where they will. Good luck!
Dave
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <dschurricanes@...> wrote:
I've made an Auray Punt (best little fishing boat ever) a Nymph, a
Singlehand Schooner, a Bobcat, a couple of Light Dories and a few
non-Bolger boats out of ACX. The ones I still know of are doing well
under new owners, with the exception of one, which was not maintained.
I take special pains to ensure that the C-side is saturated well with
straight epoxy, then puttied, and that any voids are dealt with. I
inject thin epoxy and push it into the void as far as I can with a
piece of wire. Sometimes I've been known to blow epoxy into a void.
Try to go through the pile at the lumberyard and select the clearest
panels. Anyway, if they won't let you select your material, for a
boat, go to a lumberyard where they will. Good luck!
Dave
>Hi, Don
> Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's design..?
I've made an Auray Punt (best little fishing boat ever) a Nymph, a
Singlehand Schooner, a Bobcat, a couple of Light Dories and a few
non-Bolger boats out of ACX. The ones I still know of are doing well
under new owners, with the exception of one, which was not maintained.
I take special pains to ensure that the C-side is saturated well with
straight epoxy, then puttied, and that any voids are dealt with. I
inject thin epoxy and push it into the void as far as I can with a
piece of wire. Sometimes I've been known to blow epoxy into a void.
Try to go through the pile at the lumberyard and select the clearest
panels. Anyway, if they won't let you select your material, for a
boat, go to a lumberyard where they will. Good luck!
Dave
Thanks for getting back to me David..I am building Teal its my first boat from scratch..I'm kinda pressed for time today..I live in Oxford Michigan & our footbal team( Lake Orion) is going for the state championship today @ Ford field in Detroit... I will be getting back to you..with some questions if you have time...BE safe..Don
--- On Sat, 11/29/08, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:
From: dnjost <davidjost@...>
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood 101
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 7:37 AM
yes.
I built a Nymph and a Diablo from it.
The Diablo held up ok, but suffered from serious neglect where mildew
and rot took her life after 20 years.
If you coat it very well, it might outlast you. The Nymph that I
built was my first boat 25 years ago and is still going strong as
reported by its second owner.
Construction of the Nymph was 1/4" ACX covered in 6 oz. glass set in
polyester resin. inside was painted with resin and then painted with
marine high gloss enamel.
Photos of Diablo can be viewed at
http://mysite. verizon.net/ vzeokhsb/ boatbuilding. html
Good luck.
David Jost
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
yes.
I built a Nymph and a Diablo from it.
The Diablo held up ok, but suffered from serious neglect where mildew
and rot took her life after 20 years.
If you coat it very well, it might outlast you. The Nymph that I
built was my first boat 25 years ago and is still going strong as
reported by its second owner.
Construction of the Nymph was 1/4" ACX covered in 6 oz. glass set in
polyester resin. inside was painted with resin and then painted with
marine high gloss enamel.
Photos of Diablo can be viewed at
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeokhsb/boatbuilding.html
Good luck.
David Jost
I built a Nymph and a Diablo from it.
The Diablo held up ok, but suffered from serious neglect where mildew
and rot took her life after 20 years.
If you coat it very well, it might outlast you. The Nymph that I
built was my first boat 25 years ago and is still going strong as
reported by its second owner.
Construction of the Nymph was 1/4" ACX covered in 6 oz. glass set in
polyester resin. inside was painted with resin and then painted with
marine high gloss enamel.
Photos of Diablo can be viewed at
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeokhsb/boatbuilding.html
Good luck.
David Jost
Has anyone used AC 3ply plywood...to build a boat...of Phil's design..?