Re: Was: Long Micro sailing video...now Micro/LM extra foil area
Bolgers plans are STILL relatively cheap. After reading an article on
the Jarcat catamaran I checked into plans to build. Too expensive by
far for the plans a couple of years ago. I checked again last week to
see how your Australian dollar was doing against out US dollar, and
found that it would still cost $375.00 US to buy the plans for a 16'
boat! That puts Bolgers prices into perspective.
Bob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
the Jarcat catamaran I checked into plans to build. Too expensive by
far for the plans a couple of years ago. I checked again last week to
see how your Australian dollar was doing against out US dollar, and
found that it would still cost $375.00 US to buy the plans for a 16'
boat! That puts Bolgers prices into perspective.
Bob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Yep, I should'a bought a few plans then instead of waiting for imminent
> parity... Goes up and down daily with the Dow now. Some say the AUD is
> *the* health indicator of the sick global economy. Ah well, boating
> related commodities are trending down... Now, if PB&F just hold their
> price increases - did you see how much recently for Naval Jelly plans?
> USD75!!!
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >....
> > To think we were practically up to par with the US$ a couple of
> > months ago! - Reminded me of the good old days when I used to travel
> > to the US regularly and we'd get US$1.25 to the AUST$ in those
> > days...long gone now Welcome to the New World Order.
>
Ah, but we do split hairs (those thAT HAS 'EM anyway).
I referrred to the current MAIB isssue, and exactly that, that is, that
the plans are in a Bolger book (Folding Schooner, I believe), and are
of vintage elegant simplicity. The Naval Jelly variation of a few years
ago in MAIB - the one with all the masts and many sails - now, for the
rigging and mast construction alone, that may reasonably approach
AUD112.665 (http://www.xe.com/2028AEST170109). There is that thing
about price and value (psychology/worth) - where are PB&F headed?
Hi ya, Mark. How's it going? Well I hope, and that clever kayak, it's
plans unavailability in any widely sought after publications not
withstanding, seems to pack in the value. I guess you pays your money
and makes your choices, but steep hikes are quite breath taking
nevertheless.
Cheeers
Graeme
Here now, they're repackaging some very choice export wine into vessels
of unaccustomed lower marques. Will we have more value for our dinners
worth or more dinners? I believe it worthy of ongoing research...
I referrred to the current MAIB isssue, and exactly that, that is, that
the plans are in a Bolger book (Folding Schooner, I believe), and are
of vintage elegant simplicity. The Naval Jelly variation of a few years
ago in MAIB - the one with all the masts and many sails - now, for the
rigging and mast construction alone, that may reasonably approach
AUD112.665 (http://www.xe.com/2028AEST170109). There is that thing
about price and value (psychology/worth) - where are PB&F headed?
Hi ya, Mark. How's it going? Well I hope, and that clever kayak, it's
plans unavailability in any widely sought after publications not
withstanding, seems to pack in the value. I guess you pays your money
and makes your choices, but steep hikes are quite breath taking
nevertheless.
Cheeers
Graeme
Here now, they're repackaging some very choice export wine into vessels
of unaccustomed lower marques. Will we have more value for our dinners
worth or more dinners? I believe it worthy of ongoing research...
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
>
> Not to split hairs, but you may refer to my post re: the Diamond
> Cruising Kayak. Those are now $75. I gulped once and sent the money.
> Now am eagerly eyeing the mailbox.
>
> BTW Buildable Naval Jelly plans are in 'Different Boats' if someone
> gets an interlibrary loan.
>
>
>
> On Jan 16, 2009, at 9:07 PM, graeme19121984 wrote:
> > snip Now, if PB&F just hold their
> > price increases - did you see how much recently for Naval Jelly
plans?
> > USD75!!!
> >
> >
>
Not to split hairs, but you may refer to my post re: the Diamond
Cruising Kayak. Those are now $75. I gulped once and sent the money.
Now am eagerly eyeing the mailbox.
BTW Buildable Naval Jelly plans are in 'Different Boats' if someone
gets an interlibrary loan.
Cruising Kayak. Those are now $75. I gulped once and sent the money.
Now am eagerly eyeing the mailbox.
BTW Buildable Naval Jelly plans are in 'Different Boats' if someone
gets an interlibrary loan.
On Jan 16, 2009, at 9:07 PM, graeme19121984 wrote:
> snip Now, if PB&F just hold their
> price increases - did you see how much recently for Naval Jelly plans?
> USD75!!!
>
>
Yes, well, waiting for parity, sounds like a theatre of the absurd
sort of play, really. There are a few plans I wouldn't have minded
buying but like you, held off until it was right up! I believed the
pundits. Camper #640,for one, and I've already bought Amherst Galley,
for work, just in case! Not parity then, but was close. Laminating
them cost more!
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
sort of play, really. There are a few plans I wouldn't have minded
buying but like you, held off until it was right up! I believed the
pundits. Camper #640,for one, and I've already bought Amherst Galley,
for work, just in case! Not parity then, but was close. Laminating
them cost more!
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Yep, I should'a bought a few plans then instead of waiting for imminent
> parity... Goes up and down daily with the Dow now. Some say the AUD is
> *the* health indicator of the sick global economy. Ah well, boating
> related commodities are trending down... Now, if PB&F just hold their
> price increases - did you see how much recently for Naval Jelly plans?
> USD75!!!
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >....
> > To think we were practically up to par with the US$ a couple of
> > months ago! - Reminded me of the good old days when I used to travel
> > to the US regularly and we'd get US$1.25 to the AUST$ in those
> > days...long gone now Welcome to the New World Order.
>
Yep, I should'a bought a few plans then instead of waiting for imminent
parity... Goes up and down daily with the Dow now. Some say the AUD is
*the* health indicator of the sick global economy. Ah well, boating
related commodities are trending down... Now, if PB&F just hold their
price increases - did you see how much recently for Naval Jelly plans?
USD75!!!
Graeme
parity... Goes up and down daily with the Dow now. Some say the AUD is
*the* health indicator of the sick global economy. Ah well, boating
related commodities are trending down... Now, if PB&F just hold their
price increases - did you see how much recently for Naval Jelly plans?
USD75!!!
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>....
> To think we were practically up to par with the US$ a couple of
> months ago! - Reminded me of the good old days when I used to travel
> to the US regularly and we'd get US$1.25 to the AUST$ in those
> days...long gone now Welcome to the New World Order.
Ah, yes, Graeme, I see where you mean the off-centreboard may be,
interesting boat at a very low price, I wonder what happened to it?
Seems a real shame if it was cut up. $500,even if it is US$ seems
nothing for such a boat.
To think we were practically up to par with the US$ a couple of
months ago! - Reminded me of the good old days when I used to travel
to the US regularly and we'd get US$1.25 to the AUST$ in those
days...long gone now Welcome to the New World Order.
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
interesting boat at a very low price, I wonder what happened to it?
Seems a real shame if it was cut up. $500,even if it is US$ seems
nothing for such a boat.
To think we were practically up to par with the US$ a couple of
months ago! - Reminded me of the good old days when I used to travel
to the US regularly and we'd get US$1.25 to the AUST$ in those
days...long gone now Welcome to the New World Order.
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>archives
> Greg,
>
> yes, that's the one pictured in bolger6 files. I don't know where
> else - other than to go through the thread(s) (long) in the
> for leads.his
>
> A friend has sent a link to Duckworks where Jason has advertised
> Micro for sale. IIRC Jason posted here last year that he wasJune
> relocating and couldn't take his Micro - he'd built a stretched
> Bug and was contemplating a much bigger build in the future.folder:
> --------------
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/classified.htmscan 2/3rds down
> page: there's a thumnail of that 1st file pic from the bolger6
> Micro Navigator-like boat for sale - No keel, off centerboard,3/8"
> internally ballasted - Tanbark Martha Jane Balanced Lug - Built
> MDO sheathed to waterline. Needs TLC on badly neglected bright workanymore.
> and plenty of other things to keep you busy. Trailer available but
> that will cost extra. Wil be cut up in June for lead and bronze
> fittings, sail is worth more than I'm asking. $500, takes her.
> Somebody save her, I don't have a car capable of towing her
> Jason - stancil@...may
> ---------------
> That would be June last year, I think.
> D'yer know, I'm now not even sure Jason did go with a Michalack
> leeboard! Jason made many changes - I think at one stage a standard
> Micro was all but complete - then out came the saw, off came the
> keel... I recall that centreboards were discussed, and that may be
> it: the off-centreboard mentioned in the add. The top of the case
> be just visible through the starboard windscreen in the bow pic inreferring
> bolger6.
> Graeme
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > Graeme
> >
> > Found pictures of Jason's lug rigged Micro Navigator in Bolger 6
> > under the files section and in Bolger something or other else but
> > could see no sign of a leeboard. Is that the boat you're
> > to?
> >
> > Greg
>
Greg,
yes, that's the one pictured in bolger6 files. I don't know where
else - other than to go through the thread(s) (long) in the archives
for leads.
A friend has sent a link to Duckworks where Jason has advertised his
Micro for sale. IIRC Jason posted here last year that he was
relocating and couldn't take his Micro - he'd built a stretched June
Bug and was contemplating a much bigger build in the future.
--------------
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/classified.htmscan 2/3rds down
page: there's a thumnail of that 1st file pic from the bolger6 folder:
Micro Navigator-like boat for sale - No keel, off centerboard,
internally ballasted - Tanbark Martha Jane Balanced Lug - Built 3/8"
MDO sheathed to waterline. Needs TLC on badly neglected bright work
and plenty of other things to keep you busy. Trailer available but
that will cost extra. Wil be cut up in June for lead and bronze
fittings, sail is worth more than I'm asking. $500, takes her.
Somebody save her, I don't have a car capable of towing her anymore.
Jason -stancil@...
---------------
That would be June last year, I think.
D'yer know, I'm now not even sure Jason did go with a Michalack
leeboard! Jason made many changes - I think at one stage a standard
Micro was all but complete - then out came the saw, off came the
keel... I recall that centreboards were discussed, and that may be
it: the off-centreboard mentioned in the add. The top of the case may
be just visible through the starboard windscreen in the bow pic in
bolger6.
Graeme
yes, that's the one pictured in bolger6 files. I don't know where
else - other than to go through the thread(s) (long) in the archives
for leads.
A friend has sent a link to Duckworks where Jason has advertised his
Micro for sale. IIRC Jason posted here last year that he was
relocating and couldn't take his Micro - he'd built a stretched June
Bug and was contemplating a much bigger build in the future.
--------------
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/classified.htmscan 2/3rds down
page: there's a thumnail of that 1st file pic from the bolger6 folder:
Micro Navigator-like boat for sale - No keel, off centerboard,
internally ballasted - Tanbark Martha Jane Balanced Lug - Built 3/8"
MDO sheathed to waterline. Needs TLC on badly neglected bright work
and plenty of other things to keep you busy. Trailer available but
that will cost extra. Wil be cut up in June for lead and bronze
fittings, sail is worth more than I'm asking. $500, takes her.
Somebody save her, I don't have a car capable of towing her anymore.
Jason -stancil@...
---------------
That would be June last year, I think.
D'yer know, I'm now not even sure Jason did go with a Michalack
leeboard! Jason made many changes - I think at one stage a standard
Micro was all but complete - then out came the saw, off came the
keel... I recall that centreboards were discussed, and that may be
it: the off-centreboard mentioned in the add. The top of the case may
be just visible through the starboard windscreen in the bow pic in
bolger6.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Graeme
>
> Found pictures of Jason's lug rigged Micro Navigator in Bolger 6
> under the files section and in Bolger something or other else but
> could see no sign of a leeboard. Is that the boat you're referring
> to?
>
> Greg
Graeme
Found pictures of Jason's lug rigged Micro Navigator in Bolger 6
under the files section and in Bolger something or other else but
could see no sign of a leeboard. Is that the boat you're referring
to?
Greg
Found pictures of Jason's lug rigged Micro Navigator in Bolger 6
under the files section and in Bolger something or other else but
could see no sign of a leeboard. Is that the boat you're referring
to?
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Graeme
>
> Any hints as to where Jason's leeboard Miro pictures & info may be
> found - I haven't been able to find anything as yet.
>
> GregF
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Just a few years ago Jason built a Micro with a Michalak style
> > leeboard -- and also without the salient keel. He used internal
> > ballast. Unlike Roger's temporary fitting of waterballast
contained
> > in jugs, Jason went solid. I can't just now clearly recall
whether
> > either lead ingots, or steel punchings in concrete were what he
> went
> > with. He also fitted a balanced lugsail -- via a pivoting
> tabernacle
> > mount IIRC. He said it sailed well, the ballast working for him
on
> > his sailing grounds, but so too the foil. There'll be a lot of
info
> > in the archives, and pictures somewhere in one or more of the
> groups.
> >
> > Graeme
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well Paloma Blanca, the much travelled Micro of Roger Keyes in
> South
> > > Australia, started out with leboards rather than a keel, maybe
> Roger
> > > could be persuaded into putting the boards back on now that
Paloma
> > > Blanca has the keel. It seems from photos that the fittings
for
> the
> > > boards are all still there.
> > >
> > > See the files section in Bolger 7
> > >
> > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Paloma%20Blanca/
> > >
> > > GregF
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > With all this talk on leeboards and foil shape, I think it
> might
> > be
> > > > worth a try for someone to do a double leeboard or bilgeboard
> set
> > up
> > > > on a Micro. Ballast could be in the form of bolted on steel
> > plate in
> > > > the shape of some of that found on some of his latter power
> > boats.
> > > > The 18 foot work skiff I am building has such an external
keel
> 1"
> > > > thick and a foot wide at the stern, tapering towards the
bow.
> > > >
> > > > Admittedly the motion of the boat would be more tiddly with
the
> > > > ballast up 18" higher and not in the center part of the boat,
> but
> > the
> > > > performance might improve. The location of that ballast is
> what
> > gives
> > > > the Micro such sea kindly manners. It is liking sitting in a
> > church
> > > > pew (without the sermon).
> > > >
> > > > Quite honestly, I felt the best part of Micro was that the
> motor
> > was
> > > > so easily reached, that it was far too easy to just start it
up
> > and
> > > > motor to windward. I wish I owned one of the newer, quieter
> > Hondas.
> > > >
> > > > David Jost
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Graeme
Any hints as to where Jason's leeboard Miro pictures & info may be
found - I haven't been able to find anything as yet.
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
Any hints as to where Jason's leeboard Miro pictures & info may be
found - I haven't been able to find anything as yet.
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>went
>
> Just a few years ago Jason built a Micro with a Michalak style
> leeboard -- and also without the salient keel. He used internal
> ballast. Unlike Roger's temporary fitting of waterballast contained
> in jugs, Jason went solid. I can't just now clearly recall whether
> either lead ingots, or steel punchings in concrete were what he
> with. He also fitted a balanced lugsail -- via a pivotingtabernacle
> mount IIRC. He said it sailed well, the ballast working for him ongroups.
> his sailing grounds, but so too the foil. There'll be a lot of info
> in the archives, and pictures somewhere in one or more of the
>South
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > Well Paloma Blanca, the much travelled Micro of Roger Keyes in
> > Australia, started out with leboards rather than a keel, maybeRoger
> > could be persuaded into putting the boards back on now that Palomathe
> > Blanca has the keel. It seems from photos that the fittings for
> > boards are all still there.might
> >
> > See the files section in Bolger 7
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Paloma%20Blanca/
> >
> > GregF
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@> wrote:
> > >
> > > With all this talk on leeboards and foil shape, I think it
> beset
> > > worth a try for someone to do a double leeboard or bilgeboard
> up1"
> > > on a Micro. Ballast could be in the form of bolted on steel
> plate in
> > > the shape of some of that found on some of his latter power
> boats.
> > > The 18 foot work skiff I am building has such an external keel
> > > thick and a foot wide at the stern, tapering towards the bow.but
> > >
> > > Admittedly the motion of the boat would be more tiddly with the
> > > ballast up 18" higher and not in the center part of the boat,
> thewhat
> > > performance might improve. The location of that ballast is
> givesmotor
> > > the Micro such sea kindly manners. It is liking sitting in a
> church
> > > pew (without the sermon).
> > >
> > > Quite honestly, I felt the best part of Micro was that the
> was
> > > so easily reached, that it was far too easy to just start it up
> and
> > > motor to windward. I wish I owned one of the newer, quieter
> Hondas.
> > >
> > > David Jost
> > >
> >
>
Thanks Myles
I'll trey to do just as you advise, next time I'm
out, ...whenever...I'll look at the tides and maybe this weekend!
I appreciate the advice!
Greg
I'll trey to do just as you advise, next time I'm
out, ...whenever...I'll look at the tides and maybe this weekend!
I appreciate the advice!
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> Micro has plenty of carry to get you through stays. I rarely touch
the mizzen when coming about. As Bill noted, you may have to slack
off a bit first if you have been sailing as close to the wind as you
can. Haul in and accelerate into the turn feeding it some rudder. At
a certain point you will begin to slow. Your job is to practice so
you can identify the point right before this happens. When you get
there slack the main, put the rudder over more but not so much as to
slow you. Hold that until the bow is well over, steer your new course
and then set the main. Reset the mizzen for your new course unless
you are working your way upwind.
>
> MylesJ
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Just a few years ago Jason built a Micro with a Michalak style
leeboard -- and also without the salient keel. He used internal
ballast. Unlike Roger's temporary fitting of waterballast contained
in jugs, Jason went solid. I can't just now clearly recall whether
either lead ingots, or steel punchings in concrete were what he went
with. He also fitted a balanced lugsail -- via a pivoting tabernacle
mount IIRC. He said it sailed well, the ballast working for him on
his sailing grounds, but so too the foil. There'll be a lot of info
in the archives, and pictures somewhere in one or more of the groups.
Graeme
leeboard -- and also without the salient keel. He used internal
ballast. Unlike Roger's temporary fitting of waterballast contained
in jugs, Jason went solid. I can't just now clearly recall whether
either lead ingots, or steel punchings in concrete were what he went
with. He also fitted a balanced lugsail -- via a pivoting tabernacle
mount IIRC. He said it sailed well, the ballast working for him on
his sailing grounds, but so too the foil. There'll be a lot of info
in the archives, and pictures somewhere in one or more of the groups.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Well Paloma Blanca, the much travelled Micro of Roger Keyes in South
> Australia, started out with leboards rather than a keel, maybe Roger
> could be persuaded into putting the boards back on now that Paloma
> Blanca has the keel. It seems from photos that the fittings for the
> boards are all still there.
>
> See the files section in Bolger 7
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Paloma%20Blanca/
>
> GregF
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@> wrote:
> >
> > With all this talk on leeboards and foil shape, I think it might
be
> > worth a try for someone to do a double leeboard or bilgeboard set
up
> > on a Micro. Ballast could be in the form of bolted on steel
plate in
> > the shape of some of that found on some of his latter power
boats.
> > The 18 foot work skiff I am building has such an external keel 1"
> > thick and a foot wide at the stern, tapering towards the bow.
> >
> > Admittedly the motion of the boat would be more tiddly with the
> > ballast up 18" higher and not in the center part of the boat, but
the
> > performance might improve. The location of that ballast is what
gives
> > the Micro such sea kindly manners. It is liking sitting in a
church
> > pew (without the sermon).
> >
> > Quite honestly, I felt the best part of Micro was that the motor
was
> > so easily reached, that it was far too easy to just start it up
and
> > motor to windward. I wish I owned one of the newer, quieter
Hondas.
> >
> > David Jost
> >
>
Greg,
Micro has plenty of carry to get you through stays. I rarely touch the mizzen when coming about. As Bill noted, you may have to slack off a bit first if you have been sailing as close to the wind as you can. Haul in and accelerate into the turn feeding it some rudder. At a certain point you will begin to slow. Your job is to practice so you can identify the point right before this happens. When you get there slack the main, put the rudder over more but not so much as to slow you. Hold that until the bow is well over, steer your new course and then set the main. Reset the mizzen for your new course unless you are working your way upwind.
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Micro has plenty of carry to get you through stays. I rarely touch the mizzen when coming about. As Bill noted, you may have to slack off a bit first if you have been sailing as close to the wind as you can. Haul in and accelerate into the turn feeding it some rudder. At a certain point you will begin to slow. Your job is to practice so you can identify the point right before this happens. When you get there slack the main, put the rudder over more but not so much as to slow you. Hold that until the bow is well over, steer your new course and then set the main. Reset the mizzen for your new course unless you are working your way upwind.
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How this Micro keel subject keeps on keeping on! I'll just chime in
to thank Graeme again for the more technical analysis, which I am
happy to say jibes well with my limited information and intuitions
about foils and plates. And to thank Myles and others for technical
tips on coming about. I guess I do some of these things, including
sailing backwards and putting the helm over when necessary; one
always does manage to get about with the dear Micro, and I never
blame the boat.
I, for my part, would not wish to deepen the keel. I've been pleased
that, after putting a drop axle on my trailer, and a couple of fairly
tall keel guides to railroad that keel onto its various rollers, it
is every bit as easy and quick to launch and retrieve the Micro as it
was the Birdwatchers and Dovekie I've had, and without getting my
tailpipe in the water too. But I wouldn't want her keel any deeper.
Neither would I wish to put leeboards on her. Her draft is still
pretty shallow, and the virtues of that keel are resoundingly great
and essential to her Micro-ness. As quick as I had leeboards on a
Micro I would wish that she were longer and narrower, a decidedly
different thing.
So: I hope to try the swinging plate on mine, out of pure mischief
(and if I keep her long enough); maybe with a little thickness and
cross-sectional shape just to dodge some of that awful drag of flat
plates.
But I'll also start another thread about sailing Micro in the Virgin
Islands and hope for more wisdom from the group on that subject. Note
also that having stumbled on a photo of my second Birdwatcher I,
with a Solent lug main, I've put up another album, next to the
Whalewatcher album I sent in a few days ago. ---Mason
to thank Graeme again for the more technical analysis, which I am
happy to say jibes well with my limited information and intuitions
about foils and plates. And to thank Myles and others for technical
tips on coming about. I guess I do some of these things, including
sailing backwards and putting the helm over when necessary; one
always does manage to get about with the dear Micro, and I never
blame the boat.
I, for my part, would not wish to deepen the keel. I've been pleased
that, after putting a drop axle on my trailer, and a couple of fairly
tall keel guides to railroad that keel onto its various rollers, it
is every bit as easy and quick to launch and retrieve the Micro as it
was the Birdwatchers and Dovekie I've had, and without getting my
tailpipe in the water too. But I wouldn't want her keel any deeper.
Neither would I wish to put leeboards on her. Her draft is still
pretty shallow, and the virtues of that keel are resoundingly great
and essential to her Micro-ness. As quick as I had leeboards on a
Micro I would wish that she were longer and narrower, a decidedly
different thing.
So: I hope to try the swinging plate on mine, out of pure mischief
(and if I keep her long enough); maybe with a little thickness and
cross-sectional shape just to dodge some of that awful drag of flat
plates.
But I'll also start another thread about sailing Micro in the Virgin
Islands and hope for more wisdom from the group on that subject. Note
also that having stumbled on a photo of my second Birdwatcher I,
with a Solent lug main, I've put up another album, next to the
Whalewatcher album I sent in a few days ago. ---Mason
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Well Paloma Blanca, the much travelled Micro of Roger Keyes in South
> Australia, started out with leboards rather than a keel, maybe Roger
> could be persuaded into putting the boards back on now that Paloma
> Blanca has the keel. It seems from photos that the fittings for the
> boards are all still there.
>
> See the files section in Bolger 7
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Paloma%20Blanca/
>
> GregF
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@> wrote:
> >
> > With all this talk on leeboards and foil shape, I think it might
be
> > worth a try for someone to do a double leeboard or bilgeboard set
up
> > on a Micro. Ballast could be in the form of bolted on steel
plate in
> > the shape of some of that found on some of his latter power
boats.
> > The 18 foot work skiff I am building has such an external keel 1"
> > thick and a foot wide at the stern, tapering towards the bow.
> >
> > Admittedly the motion of the boat would be more tiddly with the
> > ballast up 18" higher and not in the center part of the boat, but
the
> > performance might improve. The location of that ballast is what
gives
> > the Micro such sea kindly manners. It is liking sitting in a
church
> > pew (without the sermon).
> >
> > Quite honestly, I felt the best part of Micro was that the motor
was
> > so easily reached, that it was far too easy to just start it up
and
> > motor to windward. I wish I owned one of the newer, quieter
Hondas.
> >
> > David Jost
> >
>
Well Paloma Blanca, the much travelled Micro of Roger Keyes in South
Australia, started out with leboards rather than a keel, maybe Roger
could be persuaded into putting the boards back on now that Paloma
Blanca has the keel. It seems from photos that the fittings for the
boards are all still there.
See the files section in Bolger 7
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Paloma%20Blanca/
GregF
Australia, started out with leboards rather than a keel, maybe Roger
could be persuaded into putting the boards back on now that Paloma
Blanca has the keel. It seems from photos that the fittings for the
boards are all still there.
See the files section in Bolger 7
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Paloma%20Blanca/
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
> With all this talk on leeboards and foil shape, I think it might be
> worth a try for someone to do a double leeboard or bilgeboard set up
> on a Micro. Ballast could be in the form of bolted on steel plate in
> the shape of some of that found on some of his latter power boats.
> The 18 foot work skiff I am building has such an external keel 1"
> thick and a foot wide at the stern, tapering towards the bow.
>
> Admittedly the motion of the boat would be more tiddly with the
> ballast up 18" higher and not in the center part of the boat, but the
> performance might improve. The location of that ballast is what gives
> the Micro such sea kindly manners. It is liking sitting in a church
> pew (without the sermon).
>
> Quite honestly, I felt the best part of Micro was that the motor was
> so easily reached, that it was far too easy to just start it up and
> motor to windward. I wish I owned one of the newer, quieter Hondas.
>
> David Jost
>
With all this talk on leeboards and foil shape, I think it might be
worth a try for someone to do a double leeboard or bilgeboard set up
on a Micro. Ballast could be in the form of bolted on steel plate in
the shape of some of that found on some of his latter power boats.
The 18 foot work skiff I am building has such an external keel 1"
thick and a foot wide at the stern, tapering towards the bow.
Admittedly the motion of the boat would be more tiddly with the
ballast up 18" higher and not in the center part of the boat, but the
performance might improve. The location of that ballast is what gives
the Micro such sea kindly manners. It is liking sitting in a church
pew (without the sermon).
Quite honestly, I felt the best part of Micro was that the motor was
so easily reached, that it was far too easy to just start it up and
motor to windward. I wish I owned one of the newer, quieter Hondas.
David Jost
worth a try for someone to do a double leeboard or bilgeboard set up
on a Micro. Ballast could be in the form of bolted on steel plate in
the shape of some of that found on some of his latter power boats.
The 18 foot work skiff I am building has such an external keel 1"
thick and a foot wide at the stern, tapering towards the bow.
Admittedly the motion of the boat would be more tiddly with the
ballast up 18" higher and not in the center part of the boat, but the
performance might improve. The location of that ballast is what gives
the Micro such sea kindly manners. It is liking sitting in a church
pew (without the sermon).
Quite honestly, I felt the best part of Micro was that the motor was
so easily reached, that it was far too easy to just start it up and
motor to windward. I wish I owned one of the newer, quieter Hondas.
David Jost
Mason,
as I recall, the coefficient of drag of a flat plate square-on to a
fluid flow is 1. Incline the plate and the drag on it will reduce a
bit, but also some lift will be introduced. Keep inclining it until
the plate is edge-on to the flow and the drag will continue to
diminish to its lowest value, but there will be no lift. And
somewhere not too much further on from there my comprehensible
knowledge of fluid dynamics also peters out, so beware ;-)
Generally, shaping typical streamlined foils for a given range of
operating conditions is about getting the most lift for the least
cost of drag, and they do this better than a plate. Two things about
a plate compared to a streamlined foil are that lift maxes at
relatively quite large angles of attack (alas, for high drag values),
and continues on up to a very high stall angle (no lift, all drag).
Another thing that comes to mind about a large flat low aspect keel
is that at very low forward speeds (and none) when there can be
virtually no lift, there is still a large amount of leeway
resistance - the boat mightn't go forwards much, but also it doesn't
drift sideways downwind much either in comparison to a keel of lesser
area...
The lift generated by any foil results as a combination of many
things: the co-efficient of lift of the foil, the angle of the flow
to the oncoming foil (angle of attack), the foil area, the aspect
ratio, the speed, and etc. Angle-of-attack for an underwater foil
means there must always be some leeway for any lift to be generated.
The low aspect keel must have more speed, more area, or higher angle
of attack to generate the same amount of lift as the higher aspect
ratio keel, and it is usually going to come only from increased area
and higher angles of attack - especially close hauled on a beat.
I've seen the bubble spiral you mention astern of the keel on my
Micro, and I think PCB at one point may have suggested that it was
partly from cavitation occuring in vortices downstream of the keel.
I think that you were on the right track with your thinking about
steerable leeboards. "Steerable" leeboard(s) on a narrow boat is a
variation of an idea that is used on many racing boats to increase
close hauled performance. Another variation would be trim tabs on the
keel. As the direction the boat is pointing is not the direction it
is actually going, and the difference is the leeway angle which
effectively is also the angle of attack presented by the hull and
keel to the oncoming flow of water, the total leeway angle of the
boat is that of the hull, plus that of the foil/keel, and it remains
the same as the foil is "steered". So for a narrow boat with a
limited range of sail sheeting angle available, by turning the foil
to increase its angle of attack (for twin leeboards this would be to
increase toe-in on either tack) the hull will turn the same amount in
the other direction, which makes for a better sail sheeting angle on
a beat - ie the sail angle of attack is increased toward the optimum
which increases its drive. The rudder also may then be eased toward
the centreline thereby reducing its drag.
I think you're right in that Micro has enough sail horsepower to
reach hull speed easily from a moderate breeze and up. Also, given
how "draggy" Micro is above and below the waterline a small increase
wouldn't be noticed. I've been led to wonder, however, as to whether
that existing dragginess might make for an average leeway angle that
is too much for the usual NACA series applied to a high aspect ratio
board. The board maybe should be of a considerably higher series with
larger camber that is relatively thicker than a usual Bolger flat
board with shaping just to the edges. The flat board won't take much
to try. A thicker well shaped board is harder to construct and fit,
and if alongside the keel without considerable fairing it will cause
more drag when raised for thin water work, but again that drag will
still be quite small compared to the total already...
...oh, and from time to time PCB has designed higher aspect boards in
conjunction with long shoal keels - not just on the 55ft Micro-like
concept.
Graeme
as I recall, the coefficient of drag of a flat plate square-on to a
fluid flow is 1. Incline the plate and the drag on it will reduce a
bit, but also some lift will be introduced. Keep inclining it until
the plate is edge-on to the flow and the drag will continue to
diminish to its lowest value, but there will be no lift. And
somewhere not too much further on from there my comprehensible
knowledge of fluid dynamics also peters out, so beware ;-)
Generally, shaping typical streamlined foils for a given range of
operating conditions is about getting the most lift for the least
cost of drag, and they do this better than a plate. Two things about
a plate compared to a streamlined foil are that lift maxes at
relatively quite large angles of attack (alas, for high drag values),
and continues on up to a very high stall angle (no lift, all drag).
Another thing that comes to mind about a large flat low aspect keel
is that at very low forward speeds (and none) when there can be
virtually no lift, there is still a large amount of leeway
resistance - the boat mightn't go forwards much, but also it doesn't
drift sideways downwind much either in comparison to a keel of lesser
area...
The lift generated by any foil results as a combination of many
things: the co-efficient of lift of the foil, the angle of the flow
to the oncoming foil (angle of attack), the foil area, the aspect
ratio, the speed, and etc. Angle-of-attack for an underwater foil
means there must always be some leeway for any lift to be generated.
The low aspect keel must have more speed, more area, or higher angle
of attack to generate the same amount of lift as the higher aspect
ratio keel, and it is usually going to come only from increased area
and higher angles of attack - especially close hauled on a beat.
I've seen the bubble spiral you mention astern of the keel on my
Micro, and I think PCB at one point may have suggested that it was
partly from cavitation occuring in vortices downstream of the keel.
I think that you were on the right track with your thinking about
steerable leeboards. "Steerable" leeboard(s) on a narrow boat is a
variation of an idea that is used on many racing boats to increase
close hauled performance. Another variation would be trim tabs on the
keel. As the direction the boat is pointing is not the direction it
is actually going, and the difference is the leeway angle which
effectively is also the angle of attack presented by the hull and
keel to the oncoming flow of water, the total leeway angle of the
boat is that of the hull, plus that of the foil/keel, and it remains
the same as the foil is "steered". So for a narrow boat with a
limited range of sail sheeting angle available, by turning the foil
to increase its angle of attack (for twin leeboards this would be to
increase toe-in on either tack) the hull will turn the same amount in
the other direction, which makes for a better sail sheeting angle on
a beat - ie the sail angle of attack is increased toward the optimum
which increases its drive. The rudder also may then be eased toward
the centreline thereby reducing its drag.
I think you're right in that Micro has enough sail horsepower to
reach hull speed easily from a moderate breeze and up. Also, given
how "draggy" Micro is above and below the waterline a small increase
wouldn't be noticed. I've been led to wonder, however, as to whether
that existing dragginess might make for an average leeway angle that
is too much for the usual NACA series applied to a high aspect ratio
board. The board maybe should be of a considerably higher series with
larger camber that is relatively thicker than a usual Bolger flat
board with shaping just to the edges. The flat board won't take much
to try. A thicker well shaped board is harder to construct and fit,
and if alongside the keel without considerable fairing it will cause
more drag when raised for thin water work, but again that drag will
still be quite small compared to the total already...
...oh, and from time to time PCB has designed higher aspect boards in
conjunction with long shoal keels - not just on the 55ft Micro-like
concept.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adkgoodboat" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Graeme, I'm thankful for your long post regarding an auxiliary
foil
> on Micro. I'm poorly equipped to comment but I like scrambling to
> understand such discussions. I was surprised we could even speak of
> lift in that long low-aspect wedge under Micro at low speeds. If it
> isn't going straight through the water, it would seem a monster of
> stalling drag. Have you ever seen the spiral of bubbles off the end
> of the keel in a breeze? It runs out behind you very much like the
> trail of a propeller! I used to break my brain to design a
steerable
> leeboard on my Goodboats, because it seemed to me that in a
straight
> in-line symmetrical board, you had to have leeway before you could
> have lift! Kind of a contradiction, unless I conceived lift to mean
> merely a force that lessened leeway. Fair enough, perhaps. Anyway,
I
> was glad to get your encouragement to try the swinging board on the
> Micro, plus useful hints at its size and location. And yes, I would
> just bolt it on directly at first. It's seemed to me -- I wonder
what
> you think of this intuition -- that Micro basically has more than
> enough horsepower in her sails to force her up to her very low hull
> speed under any wind to speak of, and so a minor addition to drag
was
> not to be fretted over. ---Mason
>
Hi Bill
Thanks for the advice on tacking; I try to take this type of advice
and actually make it work, but the best of intentions ....etc! Still,
next time I get the boat in the water I'll take you comments with me.
But, as I say, sometimes I do it very well and it works like a breeze
(excuse that!) ...at others I just wonder...
I guess the winged keel idea would actually work better on LM rather
than Micro due to the longer flatter run of the keel?? (as I remember
it)
You know, Ben Lexen designed a radical 18ft Skiff in 1959 called
Taipan and that boat actually had end plates on the rudder and end
plates on the centreboard . . .so, in fact he had the idea a lot
earlier that Australia II. Taipan is now in the Australian Maritime
Museum Wharf 7 (with the Sydney Heritage Fleet boats)
Greg
Thanks for the advice on tacking; I try to take this type of advice
and actually make it work, but the best of intentions ....etc! Still,
next time I get the boat in the water I'll take you comments with me.
But, as I say, sometimes I do it very well and it works like a breeze
(excuse that!) ...at others I just wonder...
I guess the winged keel idea would actually work better on LM rather
than Micro due to the longer flatter run of the keel?? (as I remember
it)
You know, Ben Lexen designed a radical 18ft Skiff in 1959 called
Taipan and that boat actually had end plates on the rudder and end
plates on the centreboard . . .so, in fact he had the idea a lot
earlier that Australia II. Taipan is now in the Australian Maritime
Museum Wharf 7 (with the Sydney Heritage Fleet boats)
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Greg.
> An Australian want's to make a winged keel? I'm shocked.
> The idea has occurred to me at time- how well would a keel end-plate
> (similar to the end plate on some Bolger rudders) work on a keel?
> I realize this isn't a typical winged keel and I have no more useful
> thoughts beyond that.
>
> I will add a few comments on tacking M/LM. 1. I will sometimes bear
> off the wind (on a reach), pick up a little speed, and then tack.
2.
> I gently put the tiller over, since cranking the tiller will stall
the
> rudder and big tiller changes slow my boat. 3. If winds aren't
strong
> I sometimes sheet the mizzen hard (at first) to pull the bow into
the
> eye of the wind, then ease the mizzen and use the rudder to get the
> bow the rest of the way thru the eye of the wind. 4. Yeah,
sometimes
> I get stuck in irons and eventually you stop sailing foward. This is
> about the point I start swearing. And that's normally the sign that
I
> need to put the tiller over, on the opposite side, to complete my
tack
> (since the boat is now sailing backwards). If you keep the tiller
hard
> over (as if tacking normally), the boat will sail backwards, onto
its
> original tack. Really- I learned this a few times the hard way.
5. A
> few people have added weight to their M/LMs. Dan Gonneau used to
> carry (50? 100?) lbs. in lead pigs when he sailed alone. He said it
> helped pull the bow thru the wind.
>
> Bill, LM Pugnacious
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > Myles
> >
> > You sound like you have developed quite a technique there! Sounds
> > very impressive actually. Unlike me, I just plod along and hope
for
> > the best, tacking Micro is not one of my strong points I think ;
> > sometimes it works well and lots of times I try a number of
times to
> > get around and can never work out what makes the difference??
> >
> > But the winged keel idea on Micro sounds interesting, I wonder
what
> > people think about that idea?
> >
> > GregF
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Mason says "Micro is safer as she is, I think you're saying.
But
> > I've had mine sliding so much, even with a reef, in 20 knot winds
and
> > some sea, that it was iffy to get her about, and I did not like
that."
> > >
> > > Yes, I think the bendy mast and sliding some in a high wind are
in
> > the spirit of the design. I've been knocked down once by a big
gust
> > in protected waters and popped right back up. I have no idea what
> > would have happened on a steep wave. I don't really sail Micro in
> > more than a foot or two of chop and swell. I do sail where winds
15
> > to 20 with gusts to 35 are is a common weather report.
> > >
> > > I've sailed with full stock sails in enough wind to plane Micro
a
> > couple of times and I've spent hours reefed out in wind too high
for
> > the Santana's and SanJuan's and I've never had problems coming
about.
> > Maybe you have too much weight aft? It took me a while to get
down
> > the dance of accelerate into the wind, slack the main, increase
> > rudder angle, reduce angle, gather the main. I had to get good
pretty
> > fast since I had no motor. I had to backwind the mizzen to get
out of
> > the slip and time dropping the main to get into the slip without
> > banging the boardwalk.
> > >
> > > In anything less than a gale Micro is excellent at hands-off
> > station keeping. It is a great way to dive and swim without
> > anchoring. I guess I don't see the square drift problem. With a
dead
> > flat mizzen you should be able to pick your angle to the wind as
you
> > drift.
> > >
> > > My suggestion, if you want to try something on Micro, is to
make
> > the keel deeper. I'd do something simple like getting a piece of
2x2
> > and laminating onto the existing keel. Slap on some bedding
compound
> > and screw it down. If you are interested in experimenting you
might
> > try putting a 6 inch wide or wider plate either on top or instead
of
> > the additional 2x2. Start the plate back far enough that the
> > > front edge is always submerged. Maybe you can find some
calculation
> > for rudder plates and wing keels to figure the ideal width and
length
> > of the keel plate. Heck, you could add enough depth to set the
> > closest to the wind Micro record.
> > >
> > > I think that these cheap passive changes maintain the
Microness, if
> > you will. It is a very high windage design. It is very forgiving.
The
> > best thing about it is that you only need to know one rule: If
> > something is happening, tighten the mizzen and slack the main.
Unless
> > you are about to go over a waterfall, you are covered.
> > >
> > >
> > > MylesJ
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
Greg.
An Australian want's to make a winged keel? I'm shocked.
The idea has occurred to me at time- how well would a keel end-plate
(similar to the end plate on some Bolger rudders) work on a keel?
I realize this isn't a typical winged keel and I have no more useful
thoughts beyond that.
I will add a few comments on tacking M/LM. 1. I will sometimes bear
off the wind (on a reach), pick up a little speed, and then tack. 2.
I gently put the tiller over, since cranking the tiller will stall the
rudder and big tiller changes slow my boat. 3. If winds aren't strong
I sometimes sheet the mizzen hard (at first) to pull the bow into the
eye of the wind, then ease the mizzen and use the rudder to get the
bow the rest of the way thru the eye of the wind. 4. Yeah, sometimes
I get stuck in irons and eventually you stop sailing foward. This is
about the point I start swearing. And that's normally the sign that I
need to put the tiller over, on the opposite side, to complete my tack
(since the boat is now sailing backwards). If you keep the tiller hard
over (as if tacking normally), the boat will sail backwards, onto its
original tack. Really- I learned this a few times the hard way. 5. A
few people have added weight to their M/LMs. Dan Gonneau used to
carry (50? 100?) lbs. in lead pigs when he sailed alone. He said it
helped pull the bow thru the wind.
Bill, LM Pugnacious
An Australian want's to make a winged keel? I'm shocked.
The idea has occurred to me at time- how well would a keel end-plate
(similar to the end plate on some Bolger rudders) work on a keel?
I realize this isn't a typical winged keel and I have no more useful
thoughts beyond that.
I will add a few comments on tacking M/LM. 1. I will sometimes bear
off the wind (on a reach), pick up a little speed, and then tack. 2.
I gently put the tiller over, since cranking the tiller will stall the
rudder and big tiller changes slow my boat. 3. If winds aren't strong
I sometimes sheet the mizzen hard (at first) to pull the bow into the
eye of the wind, then ease the mizzen and use the rudder to get the
bow the rest of the way thru the eye of the wind. 4. Yeah, sometimes
I get stuck in irons and eventually you stop sailing foward. This is
about the point I start swearing. And that's normally the sign that I
need to put the tiller over, on the opposite side, to complete my tack
(since the boat is now sailing backwards). If you keep the tiller hard
over (as if tacking normally), the boat will sail backwards, onto its
original tack. Really- I learned this a few times the hard way. 5. A
few people have added weight to their M/LMs. Dan Gonneau used to
carry (50? 100?) lbs. in lead pigs when he sailed alone. He said it
helped pull the bow thru the wind.
Bill, LM Pugnacious
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Myles
>
> You sound like you have developed quite a technique there! Sounds
> very impressive actually. Unlike me, I just plod along and hope for
> the best, tacking Micro is not one of my strong points I think ;
> sometimes it works well and lots of times I try a number of times to
> get around and can never work out what makes the difference??
>
> But the winged keel idea on Micro sounds interesting, I wonder what
> people think about that idea?
>
> GregF
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@> wrote:
> >
> > Mason says "Micro is safer as she is, I think you're saying. But
> I've had mine sliding so much, even with a reef, in 20 knot winds and
> some sea, that it was iffy to get her about, and I did not like that."
> >
> > Yes, I think the bendy mast and sliding some in a high wind are in
> the spirit of the design. I've been knocked down once by a big gust
> in protected waters and popped right back up. I have no idea what
> would have happened on a steep wave. I don't really sail Micro in
> more than a foot or two of chop and swell. I do sail where winds 15
> to 20 with gusts to 35 are is a common weather report.
> >
> > I've sailed with full stock sails in enough wind to plane Micro a
> couple of times and I've spent hours reefed out in wind too high for
> the Santana's and SanJuan's and I've never had problems coming about.
> Maybe you have too much weight aft? It took me a while to get down
> the dance of accelerate into the wind, slack the main, increase
> rudder angle, reduce angle, gather the main. I had to get good pretty
> fast since I had no motor. I had to backwind the mizzen to get out of
> the slip and time dropping the main to get into the slip without
> banging the boardwalk.
> >
> > In anything less than a gale Micro is excellent at hands-off
> station keeping. It is a great way to dive and swim without
> anchoring. I guess I don't see the square drift problem. With a dead
> flat mizzen you should be able to pick your angle to the wind as you
> drift.
> >
> > My suggestion, if you want to try something on Micro, is to make
> the keel deeper. I'd do something simple like getting a piece of 2x2
> and laminating onto the existing keel. Slap on some bedding compound
> and screw it down. If you are interested in experimenting you might
> try putting a 6 inch wide or wider plate either on top or instead of
> the additional 2x2. Start the plate back far enough that the
> > front edge is always submerged. Maybe you can find some calculation
> for rudder plates and wing keels to figure the ideal width and length
> of the keel plate. Heck, you could add enough depth to set the
> closest to the wind Micro record.
> >
> > I think that these cheap passive changes maintain the Microness, if
> you will. It is a very high windage design. It is very forgiving. The
> best thing about it is that you only need to know one rule: If
> something is happening, tighten the mizzen and slack the main. Unless
> you are about to go over a waterfall, you are covered.
> >
> >
> > MylesJ
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
Myles
You sound like you have developed quite a technique there! Sounds
very impressive actually. Unlike me, I just plod along and hope for
the best, tacking Micro is not one of my strong points I think ;
sometimes it works well and lots of times I try a number of times to
get around and can never work out what makes the difference??
But the winged keel idea on Micro sounds interesting, I wonder what
people think about that idea?
GregF
You sound like you have developed quite a technique there! Sounds
very impressive actually. Unlike me, I just plod along and hope for
the best, tacking Micro is not one of my strong points I think ;
sometimes it works well and lots of times I try a number of times to
get around and can never work out what makes the difference??
But the winged keel idea on Micro sounds interesting, I wonder what
people think about that idea?
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
>
> Mason says "Micro is safer as she is, I think you're saying. But
I've had mine sliding so much, even with a reef, in 20 knot winds and
some sea, that it was iffy to get her about, and I did not like that."
>
> Yes, I think the bendy mast and sliding some in a high wind are in
the spirit of the design. I've been knocked down once by a big gust
in protected waters and popped right back up. I have no idea what
would have happened on a steep wave. I don't really sail Micro in
more than a foot or two of chop and swell. I do sail where winds 15
to 20 with gusts to 35 are is a common weather report.
>
> I've sailed with full stock sails in enough wind to plane Micro a
couple of times and I've spent hours reefed out in wind too high for
the Santana's and SanJuan's and I've never had problems coming about.
Maybe you have too much weight aft? It took me a while to get down
the dance of accelerate into the wind, slack the main, increase
rudder angle, reduce angle, gather the main. I had to get good pretty
fast since I had no motor. I had to backwind the mizzen to get out of
the slip and time dropping the main to get into the slip without
banging the boardwalk.
>
> In anything less than a gale Micro is excellent at hands-off
station keeping. It is a great way to dive and swim without
anchoring. I guess I don't see the square drift problem. With a dead
flat mizzen you should be able to pick your angle to the wind as you
drift.
>
> My suggestion, if you want to try something on Micro, is to make
the keel deeper. I'd do something simple like getting a piece of 2x2
and laminating onto the existing keel. Slap on some bedding compound
and screw it down. If you are interested in experimenting you might
try putting a 6 inch wide or wider plate either on top or instead of
the additional 2x2. Start the plate back far enough that the
> front edge is always submerged. Maybe you can find some calculation
for rudder plates and wing keels to figure the ideal width and length
of the keel plate. Heck, you could add enough depth to set the
closest to the wind Micro record.
>
> I think that these cheap passive changes maintain the Microness, if
you will. It is a very high windage design. It is very forgiving. The
best thing about it is that you only need to know one rule: If
something is happening, tighten the mizzen and slack the main. Unless
you are about to go over a waterfall, you are covered.
>
>
> MylesJ
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Mason says "Micro is safer as she is, I think you're saying. But I've had mine sliding so much, even with a reef, in 20 knot winds and some sea, that it was iffy to get her about, and I did not like that."
Yes, I think the bendy mast and sliding some in a high wind are in the spirit of the design. I've been knocked down once by a big gust in protected waters and popped right back up. I have no idea what would have happened on a steep wave. I don't really sail Micro in more than a foot or two of chop and swell. I do sail where winds 15 to 20 with gusts to 35 are is a common weather report.
I've sailed with full stock sails in enough wind to plane Micro a couple of times and I've spent hours reefed out in wind too high for the Santana's and SanJuan's and I've never had problems coming about. Maybe you have too much weight aft? It took me a while to get down the dance of accelerate into the wind, slack the main, increase rudder angle, reduce angle, gather the main. I had to get good pretty fast since I had no motor. I had to backwind the mizzen to get out of the slip and time dropping the main to get into the slip without banging the boardwalk.
In anything less than a gale Micro is excellent at hands-off station keeping. It is a great way to dive and swim without anchoring. I guess I don't see the square drift problem. With a dead flat mizzen you should be able to pick your angle to the wind as you drift.
My suggestion, if you want to try something on Micro, is to make the keel deeper. I'd do something simple like getting a piece of 2x2 and laminating onto the existing keel. Slap on some bedding compound and screw it down. If you are interested in experimenting you might try putting a 6 inch wide or wider plate either on top or instead of the additional 2x2. Start the plate back far enough that the
front edge is always submerged. Maybe you can find some calculation for rudder plates and wing keels to figure the ideal width and length of the keel plate. Heck, you could add enough depth to set the closest to the wind Micro record.
I think that these cheap passive changes maintain the Microness, if you will. It is a very high windage design. It is very forgiving. The best thing about it is that you only need to know one rule: If something is happening, tighten the mizzen and slack the main. Unless you are about to go over a waterfall, you are covered.
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, I think the bendy mast and sliding some in a high wind are in the spirit of the design. I've been knocked down once by a big gust in protected waters and popped right back up. I have no idea what would have happened on a steep wave. I don't really sail Micro in more than a foot or two of chop and swell. I do sail where winds 15 to 20 with gusts to 35 are is a common weather report.
I've sailed with full stock sails in enough wind to plane Micro a couple of times and I've spent hours reefed out in wind too high for the Santana's and SanJuan's and I've never had problems coming about. Maybe you have too much weight aft? It took me a while to get down the dance of accelerate into the wind, slack the main, increase rudder angle, reduce angle, gather the main. I had to get good pretty fast since I had no motor. I had to backwind the mizzen to get out of the slip and time dropping the main to get into the slip without banging the boardwalk.
In anything less than a gale Micro is excellent at hands-off station keeping. It is a great way to dive and swim without anchoring. I guess I don't see the square drift problem. With a dead flat mizzen you should be able to pick your angle to the wind as you drift.
My suggestion, if you want to try something on Micro, is to make the keel deeper. I'd do something simple like getting a piece of 2x2 and laminating onto the existing keel. Slap on some bedding compound and screw it down. If you are interested in experimenting you might try putting a 6 inch wide or wider plate either on top or instead of the additional 2x2. Start the plate back far enough that the
front edge is always submerged. Maybe you can find some calculation for rudder plates and wing keels to figure the ideal width and length of the keel plate. Heck, you could add enough depth to set the closest to the wind Micro record.
I think that these cheap passive changes maintain the Microness, if you will. It is a very high windage design. It is very forgiving. The best thing about it is that you only need to know one rule: If something is happening, tighten the mizzen and slack the main. Unless you are about to go over a waterfall, you are covered.
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Miles, I'm interested in your point and have often thought about the sort of emergency you hint at, where a keel or board might trip a boat on its side if the boat were thrust to leeward hard enough. I suppose it could happen even with a standard Micro (no added CB) though she is by far the heaviest boat down low that I have ever had. Micro is safer as she is, I think you're saying. But I've had mine sliding so much, even with a reef, in 20 knot winds and some sea, that it was iffy to get her about, and I did not like that. The swinging CB we've been talking about might help her keep her bow high enough to forge into the wind, or even make a square drift? I may still try the swinging board, keeping your caution in mind, and hope to get it up if need arises. ---Mason
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
boat is, I think, going to put a lot of force on the boards and the
leeward board, perhaps the only one down, will be levering away from
the pin. The owner and I note that as PCB's leeboards evolved to
those of the Jochems, they got shorter, higher in aspect, and their
mounting platforms stronger and more complete. Your point is well
taken about protecting the keel sheathing from the board. UHMW
plastic?
I also agree about the wonderul forgivingness of the Micro. On my
last, October, midnight/moonlight sail prior to hooking up for the
night, I punished a 6-pack of Heinekins all by myself, let the boat
sail itself, and wandered about hanging from the spars and laughing
irresponsibly. It didn't seem to require any careful setting-up at
all: it would sail itself up a little, off a little, no matter what I
did. If I'd fallen overboard, it would NOT have luffed up and waited
for me like a good cow-pony.
I've never had water coming in those stern-well drains that fast, but
I have had it rolling in over the transom during motoring with my
Honda 8, as the boat's wave follows the rocker right up there. Such a
lot of fun, that boat.
>Agreed we need a good-sized plate on the outside. I'm putting 4" x1/8" SS square washers on the leeboards of the Whalewatcher. That
boat is, I think, going to put a lot of force on the boards and the
leeward board, perhaps the only one down, will be levering away from
the pin. The owner and I note that as PCB's leeboards evolved to
those of the Jochems, they got shorter, higher in aspect, and their
mounting platforms stronger and more complete. Your point is well
taken about protecting the keel sheathing from the board. UHMW
plastic?
I also agree about the wonderul forgivingness of the Micro. On my
last, October, midnight/moonlight sail prior to hooking up for the
night, I punished a 6-pack of Heinekins all by myself, let the boat
sail itself, and wandered about hanging from the spars and laughing
irresponsibly. It didn't seem to require any careful setting-up at
all: it would sail itself up a little, off a little, no matter what I
did. If I'd fallen overboard, it would NOT have luffed up and waited
for me like a good cow-pony.
I've never had water coming in those stern-well drains that fast, but
I have had it rolling in over the transom during motoring with my
Honda 8, as the boat's wave follows the rocker right up there. Such a
lot of fun, that boat.
> Mason -structure.
>
> The issue with bolting it on will be having a large enough bearing
> surface on the leeward side to prevent damage to the keel
>I
> Metal plates, BIG bolts, maybe some Kevlar to prevent the board from
> winging out. I know that on my Rhodes 22. I would need to head
> offwind to raise the board into the slot due to the pressure on it.
> know it would break if not held between the cheeks of the slot.gas
>
> FYI - the rig on the standard Micro is wonderful. The mizzen was a
> to play with, and allowed for no panic sailing. Sail changes,
> reefing, lunch, nature calls, were all at a very leisurely pace. The
> rig also provided enough power offwind to have some real fun. It is
> not a slouch in average to above average winds. You know you are
> going to fast when the motor well drains cease to work and become
> intakes (although the water drains through the motor cut out).
>
Mason -
The issue with bolting it on will be having a large enough bearing
surface on the leeward side to prevent damage to the keel structure.
Metal plates, BIG bolts, maybe some Kevlar to prevent the board from
winging out. I know that on my Rhodes 22. I would need to head
offwind to raise the board into the slot due to the pressure on it. I
know it would break if not held between the cheeks of the slot.
FYI - the rig on the standard Micro is wonderful. The mizzen was a gas
to play with, and allowed for no panic sailing. Sail changes,
reefing, lunch, nature calls, were all at a very leisurely pace. The
rig also provided enough power offwind to have some real fun. It is
not a slouch in average to above average winds. You know you are
going to fast when the motor well drains cease to work and become
intakes (although the water drains through the motor cut out).
The issue with bolting it on will be having a large enough bearing
surface on the leeward side to prevent damage to the keel structure.
Metal plates, BIG bolts, maybe some Kevlar to prevent the board from
winging out. I know that on my Rhodes 22. I would need to head
offwind to raise the board into the slot due to the pressure on it. I
know it would break if not held between the cheeks of the slot.
FYI - the rig on the standard Micro is wonderful. The mizzen was a gas
to play with, and allowed for no panic sailing. Sail changes,
reefing, lunch, nature calls, were all at a very leisurely pace. The
rig also provided enough power offwind to have some real fun. It is
not a slouch in average to above average winds. You know you are
going to fast when the motor well drains cease to work and become
intakes (although the water drains through the motor cut out).
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
understand such discussions. I was surprised we could even speak of
lift in that long low-aspect wedge under Micro at low speeds. If it
isn't going straight through the water, it would seem a monster of
stalling drag. Have you ever seen the spiral of bubbles off the end
of the keel in a breeze? It runs out behind you very much like the
trail of a propeller! I used to break my brain to design a steerable
leeboard on my Goodboats, because it seemed to me that in a straight
in-line symmetrical board, you had to have leeway before you could
have lift! Kind of a contradiction, unless I conceived lift to mean
merely a force that lessened leeway. Fair enough, perhaps. Anyway, I
was glad to get your encouragement to try the swinging board on the
Micro, plus useful hints at its size and location. And yes, I would
just bolt it on directly at first. It's seemed to me -- I wonder what
you think of this intuition -- that Micro basically has more than
enough horsepower in her sails to force her up to her very low hull
speed under any wind to speak of, and so a minor addition to drag was
not to be fretted over. ---Mason
wrote:
>on Micro. I'm poorly equipped to comment but I like scrambling to
> Graeme, I'm thankful for your long post regarding an auxiliary foil
understand such discussions. I was surprised we could even speak of
lift in that long low-aspect wedge under Micro at low speeds. If it
isn't going straight through the water, it would seem a monster of
stalling drag. Have you ever seen the spiral of bubbles off the end
of the keel in a breeze? It runs out behind you very much like the
trail of a propeller! I used to break my brain to design a steerable
leeboard on my Goodboats, because it seemed to me that in a straight
in-line symmetrical board, you had to have leeway before you could
have lift! Kind of a contradiction, unless I conceived lift to mean
merely a force that lessened leeway. Fair enough, perhaps. Anyway, I
was glad to get your encouragement to try the swinging board on the
Micro, plus useful hints at its size and location. And yes, I would
just bolt it on directly at first. It's seemed to me -- I wonder what
you think of this intuition -- that Micro basically has more than
enough horsepower in her sails to force her up to her very low hull
speed under any wind to speak of, and so a minor addition to drag was
not to be fretted over. ---Mason
> Bill, Mason, Justin, David (and anyone else interested in Microtypes
> with auxiliary foils),(shallow)
>
> I reccommend a re-read of something elegant that Jim Michalak wrote
> that touches on this auxiliary board and the sailing to windward
> thing. Later. First, why has the Micro or Long Micro got a
> salient keel? Perhaps we could remember back to near the time ofthe
> MAIB article in '98 on the 55' live-aboard-salient-keeled-sharpie(
> concept, and how SA, expressing the opinion of the firm, lambasted
> Jon's "excoriated" may be the better term ) the draft of Pete andoutside
> Annie Hill's famous voyaging Badger dory by Benford? PB&F may have
> mainly had the AS type in mind, but the salient keel is also much
> less draft than even the cast iron Badger keel...
>
> PCB has said you can have a lot of internal ballast, or less
> on a keel. To my mind, the inside ballast of a sharpie hull givesballast
> extremely shoal inshore operating draft, and comfortable upright
> drying-out, but at the seagoing costs of the necessary extra
> weight. The salient keel still allows reasonably good shoal draftkeel
> with better speed, and perhaps better seaworthiness due to the
> ballast placement, but at the cost easy drying out. It seems the
> has "it" if sailing beyond protected waters to any extent.http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/0515/index.htm#Sizin
>
> Those other shoal-draft seagoing sailing vessels, the multihulls,
> more often than not use some type of retracting foil to help
> performance under sail (even the odd sharply vee-ed Wharram!). Why
> not then an auxiliary foil for a keeled sharpie?
>
> Please see:
>
>
> g Underwater Boardshttp://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/0601/index.htm#Under
>
>
> water Board Shapedegrees
>
> Now, roughly, some relevant numbers for comparison when you've read
> the above -- for entering on the graphs:
>
> Frolic2 sail area was 114ftsq
>
>
> 1) Micro mainsail 119ftsq
> For this sail : approximate high AR keel area required @ 4% of sail
> area = 4.76ftsq (say 5ftsq)
>
> Micro "S" (keel area) .................= 9ftsq (perhaps to arrive
> at14ftsq Jim M had included the keel-hung rudder too?), but
>
> Micro "B" dimension (keel span) merely = 1.5ft
>
> AR = 2 x B x B / S = 2 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 9 = 0.5
>
> I'd put that "0.5" in bold type if Yahoo allowed!
>
>
> 2) Long Micro mainsail (say) 200ftsq
>
> Approx high AR keel area required @ 4% of sail area = 8ftsq
>
> LM "S" (keel area) ....................= 12, but
>
> LM "B" (keel span/depth) ..............= 1.5f
>
> AR= 2 x B x B / S = 2 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 12 = 0.375
>
> 0.375!!
>
> In JM's "what if" close reaching case the angle of attack for Micro
> and LM would be over 20 degrees and more. Way more than the 4
> of the AR=5.6 Frolic2 keel! And that angle correspondingly isalong
> completely lost from the sails as the point of sail becomes a beat.
> (Of course with the sharpie single chine hull, and the ballast,
> with crew weight to weather, the Micro and LM can stand up to moresail
> wind before excessive heel, but then that's about all the wind is
> doing close hauled, ie mostly side force, it won't give much drive
> forward. In lighter air when there isn't much force in any vector,
> what scant drive on the sail might be available is diminished as
> angle of attack is diminished in line with the increased keel angleefficient
> of attack (not to labour the point - sorry). The higher co-
> of lift (CoL) at increased keel angle of attack (AoA) beingrequired
> to maintain keel lift as speed drops with the lowering forwarddrive
> of the sail rig.) Even with the high windage of Micro and LM, antight
> auxiliary high aspect ratio keel ought have a marked effect on
> upwind performance.make
>
> My understanding of what Michalak is saying in his second part, the
> June 1 issue where he considers the centreboard folding into a
> shallow keel (see his Fig 4), is that it's not a good design for on
> the wind sailing if foil aspect ratios are all that's being
> considered. It does have merits, such as if the keel is ballasted,
> say, or if the pivot of a centreboard is desired to be kept out of
> the watertight hull area to minimise the chance of leaks and to
> internal open space. In other words: though not the ideal forracing,
> a board in (or on) a keel does have it's uses, and does add totopical.
> beating ability.
>
> I'm a bit too tired and time poor just now to check the above for
> easy reading or error, but posted anyway - while it's still
> I hope it's clear enough and helps any consideration. Mason, I'dsay
> either of your suggested board mountings to date have merit. Youthose
> might wish to trial an easily reversed experiment in line with
> suggested first, both to see if the effect is worth the trouble(bet
> it is), and to better locate the CLR of the lowered board forwinds,
> reaching and beating - though I'd guess roundabout under the sail
> plan centre of area would do, as Micro has the mizzen for trim.
>
> Cheers
> Graeme
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adkgoodboat" <masonsmith@> wrote:
> >
> > Graeme,
> > Your note about adding a leeboard to a Long Micro brings this
> > response/question from me. First an observation: The Micro I have
> seems
> > to sail on the wind pretty well in some conditions. Middling
> Ithat
> > would say. It makes a lot of leeway in very light airs and in
> strong
> > breezes, or so I'd say after rather little sailing, half a dozen
> good
> > outings. Enough leeway sometimes that I have wondered about a
> simple
> > addition. Wonder how it strikes you:
> > What about a sinking leeboard so shaped and sized as to fit
> alongside
> > the fixed keel, shaped to fit in its shadow, pivoted on a bolt
> > goes through keel, with a pendant that leads from the board to aone
> cheek
> > block on same, near the bottom, then aft to a turning block at
> ofcleat.
> > the holes in the after well, and up through that to hand and
> > This board could have a low enough aspect (and a fairing in front
> of
> > it?) to add not too much drag, its mounting would be way strong,
> and it
> > might make the Micro point quite well. 'Twouldn't be much trouble
> to
> > try it, though I'd feel a little funny trying to make the Micro
> > anything it isn't.
> >
>
I think an important point has been missed. Micro does not have enough weight deep enough to act like a Bristol Cutter in bad weather. Better to slide sideways than to go over. I've sailed Micro on the coastal lakes in the northwest (15 to 20 with gusts to 30) and I don't feel excessive leeway in higher winds even with a reef in. I often sail with my back against the cabin, helm lashed, steering by mizzen.
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MylesJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill, Mason, Justin, David (and anyone else interested in Micro types
with auxiliary foils),
I reccommend a re-read of something elegant that Jim Michalak wrote
that touches on this auxiliary board and the sailing to windward
thing. Later. First, why has the Micro or Long Micro got a (shallow)
salient keel? Perhaps we could remember back to near the time of the
MAIB article in '98 on the 55' live-aboard-salient-keeled-sharpie
concept, and how SA, expressing the opinion of the firm, lambasted (
Jon's "excoriated" may be the better term ) the draft of Pete and
Annie Hill's famous voyaging Badger dory by Benford? PB&F may have
mainly had the AS type in mind, but the salient keel is also much
less draft than even the cast iron Badger keel...
PCB has said you can have a lot of internal ballast, or less outside
on a keel. To my mind, the inside ballast of a sharpie hull gives
extremely shoal inshore operating draft, and comfortable upright
drying-out, but at the seagoing costs of the necessary extra ballast
weight. The salient keel still allows reasonably good shoal draft
with better speed, and perhaps better seaworthiness due to the
ballast placement, but at the cost easy drying out. It seems the keel
has "it" if sailing beyond protected waters to any extent.
Those other shoal-draft seagoing sailing vessels, the multihulls,
more often than not use some type of retracting foil to help
performance under sail (even the odd sharply vee-ed Wharram!). Why
not then an auxiliary foil for a keeled sharpie?
Please see:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/0515/index.htm#Sizin
g Underwater Boards
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/0601/index.htm#Under
water Board Shape
Now, roughly, some relevant numbers for comparison when you've read
the above -- for entering on the graphs:
Frolic2 sail area was 114ftsq
1) Micro mainsail 119ftsq
For this sail : approximate high AR keel area required @ 4% of sail
area = 4.76ftsq (say 5ftsq)
Micro "S" (keel area) .................= 9ftsq (perhaps to arrive
at14ftsq Jim M had included the keel-hung rudder too?), but
Micro "B" dimension (keel span) merely = 1.5ft
AR = 2 x B x B / S = 2 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 9 = 0.5
I'd put that "0.5" in bold type if Yahoo allowed!
2) Long Micro mainsail (say) 200ftsq
Approx high AR keel area required @ 4% of sail area = 8ftsq
LM "S" (keel area) ....................= 12, but
LM "B" (keel span/depth) ..............= 1.5f
AR= 2 x B x B / S = 2 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 12 = 0.375
0.375!!
In JM's "what if" close reaching case the angle of attack for Micro
and LM would be over 20 degrees and more. Way more than the 4 degrees
of the AR=5.6 Frolic2 keel! And that angle correspondingly is
completely lost from the sails as the point of sail becomes a beat.
(Of course with the sharpie single chine hull, and the ballast, along
with crew weight to weather, the Micro and LM can stand up to more
wind before excessive heel, but then that's about all the wind is
doing close hauled, ie mostly side force, it won't give much drive
forward. In lighter air when there isn't much force in any vector,
what scant drive on the sail might be available is diminished as sail
angle of attack is diminished in line with the increased keel angle
of attack (not to labour the point - sorry). The higher co-efficient
of lift (CoL) at increased keel angle of attack (AoA) being required
to maintain keel lift as speed drops with the lowering forward drive
of the sail rig.) Even with the high windage of Micro and LM, an
auxiliary high aspect ratio keel ought have a marked effect on tight
upwind performance.
My understanding of what Michalak is saying in his second part, the
June 1 issue where he considers the centreboard folding into a
shallow keel (see his Fig 4), is that it's not a good design for on
the wind sailing if foil aspect ratios are all that's being
considered. It does have merits, such as if the keel is ballasted,
say, or if the pivot of a centreboard is desired to be kept out of
the watertight hull area to minimise the chance of leaks and to make
internal open space. In other words: though not the ideal for racing,
a board in (or on) a keel does have it's uses, and does add to
beating ability.
I'm a bit too tired and time poor just now to check the above for
easy reading or error, but posted anyway - while it's still topical.
I hope it's clear enough and helps any consideration. Mason, I'd say
either of your suggested board mountings to date have merit. You
might wish to trial an easily reversed experiment in line with those
suggested first, both to see if the effect is worth the trouble (bet
it is), and to better locate the CLR of the lowered board for
reaching and beating - though I'd guess roundabout under the sail
plan centre of area would do, as Micro has the mizzen for trim.
Cheers
Graeme
with auxiliary foils),
I reccommend a re-read of something elegant that Jim Michalak wrote
that touches on this auxiliary board and the sailing to windward
thing. Later. First, why has the Micro or Long Micro got a (shallow)
salient keel? Perhaps we could remember back to near the time of the
MAIB article in '98 on the 55' live-aboard-salient-keeled-sharpie
concept, and how SA, expressing the opinion of the firm, lambasted (
Jon's "excoriated" may be the better term ) the draft of Pete and
Annie Hill's famous voyaging Badger dory by Benford? PB&F may have
mainly had the AS type in mind, but the salient keel is also much
less draft than even the cast iron Badger keel...
PCB has said you can have a lot of internal ballast, or less outside
on a keel. To my mind, the inside ballast of a sharpie hull gives
extremely shoal inshore operating draft, and comfortable upright
drying-out, but at the seagoing costs of the necessary extra ballast
weight. The salient keel still allows reasonably good shoal draft
with better speed, and perhaps better seaworthiness due to the
ballast placement, but at the cost easy drying out. It seems the keel
has "it" if sailing beyond protected waters to any extent.
Those other shoal-draft seagoing sailing vessels, the multihulls,
more often than not use some type of retracting foil to help
performance under sail (even the odd sharply vee-ed Wharram!). Why
not then an auxiliary foil for a keeled sharpie?
Please see:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/0515/index.htm#Sizin
g Underwater Boards
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/0601/index.htm#Under
water Board Shape
Now, roughly, some relevant numbers for comparison when you've read
the above -- for entering on the graphs:
Frolic2 sail area was 114ftsq
1) Micro mainsail 119ftsq
For this sail : approximate high AR keel area required @ 4% of sail
area = 4.76ftsq (say 5ftsq)
Micro "S" (keel area) .................= 9ftsq (perhaps to arrive
at14ftsq Jim M had included the keel-hung rudder too?), but
Micro "B" dimension (keel span) merely = 1.5ft
AR = 2 x B x B / S = 2 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 9 = 0.5
I'd put that "0.5" in bold type if Yahoo allowed!
2) Long Micro mainsail (say) 200ftsq
Approx high AR keel area required @ 4% of sail area = 8ftsq
LM "S" (keel area) ....................= 12, but
LM "B" (keel span/depth) ..............= 1.5f
AR= 2 x B x B / S = 2 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 12 = 0.375
0.375!!
In JM's "what if" close reaching case the angle of attack for Micro
and LM would be over 20 degrees and more. Way more than the 4 degrees
of the AR=5.6 Frolic2 keel! And that angle correspondingly is
completely lost from the sails as the point of sail becomes a beat.
(Of course with the sharpie single chine hull, and the ballast, along
with crew weight to weather, the Micro and LM can stand up to more
wind before excessive heel, but then that's about all the wind is
doing close hauled, ie mostly side force, it won't give much drive
forward. In lighter air when there isn't much force in any vector,
what scant drive on the sail might be available is diminished as sail
angle of attack is diminished in line with the increased keel angle
of attack (not to labour the point - sorry). The higher co-efficient
of lift (CoL) at increased keel angle of attack (AoA) being required
to maintain keel lift as speed drops with the lowering forward drive
of the sail rig.) Even with the high windage of Micro and LM, an
auxiliary high aspect ratio keel ought have a marked effect on tight
upwind performance.
My understanding of what Michalak is saying in his second part, the
June 1 issue where he considers the centreboard folding into a
shallow keel (see his Fig 4), is that it's not a good design for on
the wind sailing if foil aspect ratios are all that's being
considered. It does have merits, such as if the keel is ballasted,
say, or if the pivot of a centreboard is desired to be kept out of
the watertight hull area to minimise the chance of leaks and to make
internal open space. In other words: though not the ideal for racing,
a board in (or on) a keel does have it's uses, and does add to
beating ability.
I'm a bit too tired and time poor just now to check the above for
easy reading or error, but posted anyway - while it's still topical.
I hope it's clear enough and helps any consideration. Mason, I'd say
either of your suggested board mountings to date have merit. You
might wish to trial an easily reversed experiment in line with those
suggested first, both to see if the effect is worth the trouble (bet
it is), and to better locate the CLR of the lowered board for
reaching and beating - though I'd guess roundabout under the sail
plan centre of area would do, as Micro has the mizzen for trim.
Cheers
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adkgoodboat" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
>
> Graeme,
> Your note about adding a leeboard to a Long Micro brings this
> response/question from me. First an observation: The Micro I have
seems
> to sail on the wind pretty well in some conditions. Middling winds,
I
> would say. It makes a lot of leeway in very light airs and in
strong
> breezes, or so I'd say after rather little sailing, half a dozen
good
> outings. Enough leeway sometimes that I have wondered about a
simple
> addition. Wonder how it strikes you:
> What about a sinking leeboard so shaped and sized as to fit
alongside
> the fixed keel, shaped to fit in its shadow, pivoted on a bolt that
> goes through keel, with a pendant that leads from the board to a
cheek
> block on same, near the bottom, then aft to a turning block at one
of
> the holes in the after well, and up through that to hand and cleat.
> This board could have a low enough aspect (and a fairing in front
of
> it?) to add not too much drag, its mounting would be way strong,
and it
> might make the Micro point quite well. 'Twouldn't be much trouble
to
> try it, though I'd feel a little funny trying to make the Micro
> anything it isn't.
>
I love this thread. We know that Micro sails as well as any catboat
in relatively flat seas, yet suffers performance when the surf kicks
up or in light airs. A swing keel may be helpful in a couple of ways.
Rather than pour a solid ballast keel, a keel chamber that contains
the slot could be poured out of lead shot set in epoxy, then the swing
keel could be similar to the Birdwatcher with a solid 1/2" metal plate
set in between a plywood sandwich. Simple hoist through a pipe up to
the cockpit for the pennant would keep the entire unit water tight.
Worth a try by someone with a boat and no keel. Perhaps the draft
could be even less.
I bet that an arrangement of a gin pole for a jib may be just as helpful.
I sail frequently on a Precision 21, and owned a Rhodes 22 set up as
such. The only real PIA is changing the cb pennant. The Precision
sails very well whereas the Rhodes as a bit of a dog; a result of rig
more than shape.
in relatively flat seas, yet suffers performance when the surf kicks
up or in light airs. A swing keel may be helpful in a couple of ways.
Rather than pour a solid ballast keel, a keel chamber that contains
the slot could be poured out of lead shot set in epoxy, then the swing
keel could be similar to the Birdwatcher with a solid 1/2" metal plate
set in between a plywood sandwich. Simple hoist through a pipe up to
the cockpit for the pennant would keep the entire unit water tight.
Worth a try by someone with a boat and no keel. Perhaps the draft
could be even less.
I bet that an arrangement of a gin pole for a jib may be just as helpful.
I sail frequently on a Precision 21, and owned a Rhodes 22 set up as
such. The only real PIA is changing the cb pennant. The Precision
sails very well whereas the Rhodes as a bit of a dog; a result of rig
more than shape.
I had a couple thoughts about the addition of a swing keel.
The sides of the keel are deadflat right?
As proof of concept you could through-bolt a CB to the side of the
keel with a big pivot bolt with an 8 or 10 inch diameter steel plate
on the non-keel side so a single bolt would hold it in place and the
plate would support the board from breaking off.
Launch the boat and then go over the side with a pair of wrenches.
Swing the board in position and tighten it down. Maybe with a couple
of pre-drilled holes you could even shift the board's position while
afloat. If the idea doesn't work all you have to do is epoxy the holes
closed.
You could try to salvage a swing keel or swinging rudder from a
derelict boat to use temporarily, or maybe borrow a blade.
You could also construct a dummy CB shaped box from a few sticks and
cheap ply to see if extra width on one side of the keel (simulating
board-up sailing) would harm performance enough to kill the concept
altogether.
Caution: no deep thought was applied to this and it is possibly
completely unworkable.
Justin in Durham, NC
The sides of the keel are deadflat right?
As proof of concept you could through-bolt a CB to the side of the
keel with a big pivot bolt with an 8 or 10 inch diameter steel plate
on the non-keel side so a single bolt would hold it in place and the
plate would support the board from breaking off.
Launch the boat and then go over the side with a pair of wrenches.
Swing the board in position and tighten it down. Maybe with a couple
of pre-drilled holes you could even shift the board's position while
afloat. If the idea doesn't work all you have to do is epoxy the holes
closed.
You could try to salvage a swing keel or swinging rudder from a
derelict boat to use temporarily, or maybe borrow a blade.
You could also construct a dummy CB shaped box from a few sticks and
cheap ply to see if extra width on one side of the keel (simulating
board-up sailing) would harm performance enough to kill the concept
altogether.
Caution: no deep thought was applied to this and it is possibly
completely unworkable.
Justin in Durham, NC
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adkgoodboat" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
>
> Glad someone thinks the centerboard-alongside-keel idea isn't nutty.
> A further evolution of the thought would be a second side-piece to
> the keel, spaced away from the present plywood side, providing a slot
> for this board and its pendant, for somewhat less drag.
> Not sure how to judge exactly where to put the pin, or how much
> draft to give the thing, but it could be interestingly shaped, curved
> on both leading and trailing edges, and widest at the bottom. Not
> wuth it, I spect, but at this time of year it seems a tempting
> project.
> Where I have sailed Pelican, so far: It's a sore point with
> me,that I have sailed ie not enough and not far enough: at Mystic
> Seaport, during the Bolger celebration summer before last, she
> floated looking like a sailboat but didn't sail (no keel then, but
> spars and sails up); then since she's had her keel, new companionway,
> flotation, etc., a few day-sails on Long Lake and Tupper Lake in the
> Adirondacks, Lake Champlain several single-overnight trips, with 13
> yr-old Maggie, and last October a full-moon solo sailing overnight on
> Schroon Lake.
> Had so hoped to get her to Henderson Harbor for a romp on eastern
> Lake Ontario, and up to Kingston perhaps.
> I have no sailing pictures except from on board. Some of what I do
> have is on www.adirondackgoodboat.com. I have given her a white boot-
> top since those pix, further to lower her topsides (in appearance).
> What I'd love to show you is the Whalewather pictures, but that
> untested marvel is stuck under a jury-rigged canopy-shelter now,
> probably until April. She's done, virtually, and has her mast in the
> tabernacle and other spars in their chocks on deck, but her rig has
> not yet been up. Was hoping for global warming but it didn't come
> around.---Mason
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@> wrote:
> >
> > Mason (?) and Graeme,
> > That's a neat idea! I had half-thought about some type of
> centerboard
> > in the keel of my LM, but quickly dismissed the idea, in part b/c I
> > couldn't think through a decent way of raising the board without
> > intruding into the cabin. The line, led aft under the hull is a
> great
> > solution.
> >
> > Gramem, for the past two days I've been mulling over your comments
> on
> > leeboards. The Zeigler's Zoon (or Luna?) was a keel-less LM with
> > leeboards, and Roger Keyes originally used leeboards, but later
> added
> > the keel to his M. There's the precedent for fitting leeboards to
> the
> > M and LM, but not as auxilliary leeboards. Would make for an
> > interesting experiment. I am not planning any modifications for
> this
> > season, but I enjoy mulling over these options.
> >
> > My thoughts on why the M and LM are good windward performers [note:
> I
> > don't want anyone to conclude that M and LM are NOT good performers
> to
> > windward. They are good, just not great] fall into three causes,
> > depending on wind strength (as Mason noted below). In light winds
> my
> > LM crawls and makes excessive leeway, I suspect, b/c there is no jib
> > to improve the airflow around the mainsail. I'm no expert on sail
> > theory, but my experience on plastic sloops is that their windward
> > performance improves vastly when the jib/gennie is deployed. A
> > bowsprit and slim jib would probably help, but the loads on the mast
> > would have to be appreciated, since there is no backsay or standing
> > rigging.
> >
> > In medium winds the M and LM perform well to windward- even better
> > when the water is flat. A deeper keel/leeboard/etc. might help by
> > biting into deeper waters. Leeboards might be slightly more
> effective
> > b/c the leeward chine is as low or lower than the keel when
> heeled.
> > The weighted, keel-mounted centerboard would also help, I imagine.
> >
> > In strong winds M and LM are probably blown to windward due to their
> > windage/high freeboard. The sides of my LM present approximately 75
> > sq. feet of flat surface area to the wind. The sail on my Gypsy is
> > only 59 sq. feet! I have sailed in steady winds of up to 25 knots
> and
> > not had an issue with windward performance, but that doesn't mean it
> > couldn't be better, although short of a chain-saw I don't know of
> any
> > easy methods of decreasing the windage on the M or LM.
> >
> > So Mason. Where do you sail your Micro, where have you gone, and
> what
> > adventures have you had? Picture? Stories? We're all ears.
> >
> > Bill, LM Pugnacious
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adkgoodboat" <masonsmith@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Graeme,
> > > Your note about adding a leeboard to a Long Micro brings this
> > > response/question from me. First an observation: The Micro I have
> seems
> > > to sail on the wind pretty well in some conditions. Middling
> winds, I
> > > would say. It makes a lot of leeway in very light airs and in
> strong
> > > breezes, or so I'd say after rather little sailing, half a dozen
> good
> > > outings. Enough leeway sometimes that I have wondered about a
> simple
> > > addition. Wonder how it strikes you:
> > > What about a sinking leeboard so shaped and sized as to fit
> alongside
> > > the fixed keel, shaped to fit in its shadow, pivoted on a bolt
> that
> > > goes through keel, with a pendant that leads from the board to a
> cheek
> > > block on same, near the bottom, then aft to a turning block at
> one of
> > > the holes in the after well, and up through that to hand and
> cleat.
> > > This board could have a low enough aspect (and a fairing in front
> of
> > > it?) to add not too much drag, its mounting would be way strong,
> and it
> > > might make the Micro point quite well. 'Twouldn't be much trouble
> to
> > > try it, though I'd feel a little funny trying to make the Micro
> > > anything it isn't.
> > >
> >
>
Glad someone thinks the centerboard-alongside-keel idea isn't nutty.
A further evolution of the thought would be a second side-piece to
the keel, spaced away from the present plywood side, providing a slot
for this board and its pendant, for somewhat less drag.
Not sure how to judge exactly where to put the pin, or how much
draft to give the thing, but it could be interestingly shaped, curved
on both leading and trailing edges, and widest at the bottom. Not
wuth it, I spect, but at this time of year it seems a tempting
project.
Where I have sailed Pelican, so far: It's a sore point with
me,that I have sailed ie not enough and not far enough: at Mystic
Seaport, during the Bolger celebration summer before last, she
floated looking like a sailboat but didn't sail (no keel then, but
spars and sails up); then since she's had her keel, new companionway,
flotation, etc., a few day-sails on Long Lake and Tupper Lake in the
Adirondacks, Lake Champlain several single-overnight trips, with 13
yr-old Maggie, and last October a full-moon solo sailing overnight on
Schroon Lake.
Had so hoped to get her to Henderson Harbor for a romp on eastern
Lake Ontario, and up to Kingston perhaps.
I have no sailing pictures except from on board. Some of what I do
have is on www.adirondackgoodboat.com. I have given her a white boot-
top since those pix, further to lower her topsides (in appearance).
What I'd love to show you is the Whalewather pictures, but that
untested marvel is stuck under a jury-rigged canopy-shelter now,
probably until April. She's done, virtually, and has her mast in the
tabernacle and other spars in their chocks on deck, but her rig has
not yet been up. Was hoping for global warming but it didn't come
around.---Mason
A further evolution of the thought would be a second side-piece to
the keel, spaced away from the present plywood side, providing a slot
for this board and its pendant, for somewhat less drag.
Not sure how to judge exactly where to put the pin, or how much
draft to give the thing, but it could be interestingly shaped, curved
on both leading and trailing edges, and widest at the bottom. Not
wuth it, I spect, but at this time of year it seems a tempting
project.
Where I have sailed Pelican, so far: It's a sore point with
me,that I have sailed ie not enough and not far enough: at Mystic
Seaport, during the Bolger celebration summer before last, she
floated looking like a sailboat but didn't sail (no keel then, but
spars and sails up); then since she's had her keel, new companionway,
flotation, etc., a few day-sails on Long Lake and Tupper Lake in the
Adirondacks, Lake Champlain several single-overnight trips, with 13
yr-old Maggie, and last October a full-moon solo sailing overnight on
Schroon Lake.
Had so hoped to get her to Henderson Harbor for a romp on eastern
Lake Ontario, and up to Kingston perhaps.
I have no sailing pictures except from on board. Some of what I do
have is on www.adirondackgoodboat.com. I have given her a white boot-
top since those pix, further to lower her topsides (in appearance).
What I'd love to show you is the Whalewather pictures, but that
untested marvel is stuck under a jury-rigged canopy-shelter now,
probably until April. She's done, virtually, and has her mast in the
tabernacle and other spars in their chocks on deck, but her rig has
not yet been up. Was hoping for global warming but it didn't come
around.---Mason
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Mason (?) and Graeme,
> That's a neat idea! I had half-thought about some type of
centerboard
> in the keel of my LM, but quickly dismissed the idea, in part b/c I
> couldn't think through a decent way of raising the board without
> intruding into the cabin. The line, led aft under the hull is a
great
> solution.
>
> Gramem, for the past two days I've been mulling over your comments
on
> leeboards. The Zeigler's Zoon (or Luna?) was a keel-less LM with
> leeboards, and Roger Keyes originally used leeboards, but later
added
> the keel to his M. There's the precedent for fitting leeboards to
the
> M and LM, but not as auxilliary leeboards. Would make for an
> interesting experiment. I am not planning any modifications for
this
> season, but I enjoy mulling over these options.
>
> My thoughts on why the M and LM are good windward performers [note:
I
> don't want anyone to conclude that M and LM are NOT good performers
to
> windward. They are good, just not great] fall into three causes,
> depending on wind strength (as Mason noted below). In light winds
my
> LM crawls and makes excessive leeway, I suspect, b/c there is no jib
> to improve the airflow around the mainsail. I'm no expert on sail
> theory, but my experience on plastic sloops is that their windward
> performance improves vastly when the jib/gennie is deployed. A
> bowsprit and slim jib would probably help, but the loads on the mast
> would have to be appreciated, since there is no backsay or standing
> rigging.
>
> In medium winds the M and LM perform well to windward- even better
> when the water is flat. A deeper keel/leeboard/etc. might help by
> biting into deeper waters. Leeboards might be slightly more
effective
> b/c the leeward chine is as low or lower than the keel when
heeled.
> The weighted, keel-mounted centerboard would also help, I imagine.
>
> In strong winds M and LM are probably blown to windward due to their
> windage/high freeboard. The sides of my LM present approximately 75
> sq. feet of flat surface area to the wind. The sail on my Gypsy is
> only 59 sq. feet! I have sailed in steady winds of up to 25 knots
and
> not had an issue with windward performance, but that doesn't mean it
> couldn't be better, although short of a chain-saw I don't know of
any
> easy methods of decreasing the windage on the M or LM.
>
> So Mason. Where do you sail your Micro, where have you gone, and
what
> adventures have you had? Picture? Stories? We're all ears.
>
> Bill, LM Pugnacious
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adkgoodboat" <masonsmith@> wrote:
> >
> > Graeme,
> > Your note about adding a leeboard to a Long Micro brings this
> > response/question from me. First an observation: The Micro I have
seems
> > to sail on the wind pretty well in some conditions. Middling
winds, I
> > would say. It makes a lot of leeway in very light airs and in
strong
> > breezes, or so I'd say after rather little sailing, half a dozen
good
> > outings. Enough leeway sometimes that I have wondered about a
simple
> > addition. Wonder how it strikes you:
> > What about a sinking leeboard so shaped and sized as to fit
alongside
> > the fixed keel, shaped to fit in its shadow, pivoted on a bolt
that
> > goes through keel, with a pendant that leads from the board to a
cheek
> > block on same, near the bottom, then aft to a turning block at
one of
> > the holes in the after well, and up through that to hand and
cleat.
> > This board could have a low enough aspect (and a fairing in front
of
> > it?) to add not too much drag, its mounting would be way strong,
and it
> > might make the Micro point quite well. 'Twouldn't be much trouble
to
> > try it, though I'd feel a little funny trying to make the Micro
> > anything it isn't.
> >
>
Mason (?) and Graeme,
That's a neat idea! I had half-thought about some type of centerboard
in the keel of my LM, but quickly dismissed the idea, in part b/c I
couldn't think through a decent way of raising the board without
intruding into the cabin. The line, led aft under the hull is a great
solution.
Gramem, for the past two days I've been mulling over your comments on
leeboards. The Zeigler's Zoon (or Luna?) was a keel-less LM with
leeboards, and Roger Keyes originally used leeboards, but later added
the keel to his M. There's the precedent for fitting leeboards to the
M and LM, but not as auxilliary leeboards. Would make for an
interesting experiment. I am not planning any modifications for this
season, but I enjoy mulling over these options.
My thoughts on why the M and LM are good windward performers [note: I
don't want anyone to conclude that M and LM are NOT good performers to
windward. They are good, just not great] fall into three causes,
depending on wind strength (as Mason noted below). In light winds my
LM crawls and makes excessive leeway, I suspect, b/c there is no jib
to improve the airflow around the mainsail. I'm no expert on sail
theory, but my experience on plastic sloops is that their windward
performance improves vastly when the jib/gennie is deployed. A
bowsprit and slim jib would probably help, but the loads on the mast
would have to be appreciated, since there is no backsay or standing
rigging.
In medium winds the M and LM perform well to windward- even better
when the water is flat. A deeper keel/leeboard/etc. might help by
biting into deeper waters. Leeboards might be slightly more effective
b/c the leeward chine is as low or lower than the keel when heeled.
The weighted, keel-mounted centerboard would also help, I imagine.
In strong winds M and LM are probably blown to windward due to their
windage/high freeboard. The sides of my LM present approximately 75
sq. feet of flat surface area to the wind. The sail on my Gypsy is
only 59 sq. feet! I have sailed in steady winds of up to 25 knots and
not had an issue with windward performance, but that doesn't mean it
couldn't be better, although short of a chain-saw I don't know of any
easy methods of decreasing the windage on the M or LM.
So Mason. Where do you sail your Micro, where have you gone, and what
adventures have you had? Picture? Stories? We're all ears.
Bill, LM Pugnacious
That's a neat idea! I had half-thought about some type of centerboard
in the keel of my LM, but quickly dismissed the idea, in part b/c I
couldn't think through a decent way of raising the board without
intruding into the cabin. The line, led aft under the hull is a great
solution.
Gramem, for the past two days I've been mulling over your comments on
leeboards. The Zeigler's Zoon (or Luna?) was a keel-less LM with
leeboards, and Roger Keyes originally used leeboards, but later added
the keel to his M. There's the precedent for fitting leeboards to the
M and LM, but not as auxilliary leeboards. Would make for an
interesting experiment. I am not planning any modifications for this
season, but I enjoy mulling over these options.
My thoughts on why the M and LM are good windward performers [note: I
don't want anyone to conclude that M and LM are NOT good performers to
windward. They are good, just not great] fall into three causes,
depending on wind strength (as Mason noted below). In light winds my
LM crawls and makes excessive leeway, I suspect, b/c there is no jib
to improve the airflow around the mainsail. I'm no expert on sail
theory, but my experience on plastic sloops is that their windward
performance improves vastly when the jib/gennie is deployed. A
bowsprit and slim jib would probably help, but the loads on the mast
would have to be appreciated, since there is no backsay or standing
rigging.
In medium winds the M and LM perform well to windward- even better
when the water is flat. A deeper keel/leeboard/etc. might help by
biting into deeper waters. Leeboards might be slightly more effective
b/c the leeward chine is as low or lower than the keel when heeled.
The weighted, keel-mounted centerboard would also help, I imagine.
In strong winds M and LM are probably blown to windward due to their
windage/high freeboard. The sides of my LM present approximately 75
sq. feet of flat surface area to the wind. The sail on my Gypsy is
only 59 sq. feet! I have sailed in steady winds of up to 25 knots and
not had an issue with windward performance, but that doesn't mean it
couldn't be better, although short of a chain-saw I don't know of any
easy methods of decreasing the windage on the M or LM.
So Mason. Where do you sail your Micro, where have you gone, and what
adventures have you had? Picture? Stories? We're all ears.
Bill, LM Pugnacious
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adkgoodboat" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
>
> Graeme,
> Your note about adding a leeboard to a Long Micro brings this
> response/question from me. First an observation: The Micro I have seems
> to sail on the wind pretty well in some conditions. Middling winds, I
> would say. It makes a lot of leeway in very light airs and in strong
> breezes, or so I'd say after rather little sailing, half a dozen good
> outings. Enough leeway sometimes that I have wondered about a simple
> addition. Wonder how it strikes you:
> What about a sinking leeboard so shaped and sized as to fit alongside
> the fixed keel, shaped to fit in its shadow, pivoted on a bolt that
> goes through keel, with a pendant that leads from the board to a cheek
> block on same, near the bottom, then aft to a turning block at one of
> the holes in the after well, and up through that to hand and cleat.
> This board could have a low enough aspect (and a fairing in front of
> it?) to add not too much drag, its mounting would be way strong, and it
> might make the Micro point quite well. 'Twouldn't be much trouble to
> try it, though I'd feel a little funny trying to make the Micro
> anything it isn't.
>
Graeme,
Your note about adding a leeboard to a Long Micro brings this
response/question from me. First an observation: The Micro I have seems
to sail on the wind pretty well in some conditions. Middling winds, I
would say. It makes a lot of leeway in very light airs and in strong
breezes, or so I'd say after rather little sailing, half a dozen good
outings. Enough leeway sometimes that I have wondered about a simple
addition. Wonder how it strikes you:
What about a sinking leeboard so shaped and sized as to fit alongside
the fixed keel, shaped to fit in its shadow, pivoted on a bolt that
goes through keel, with a pendant that leads from the board to a cheek
block on same, near the bottom, then aft to a turning block at one of
the holes in the after well, and up through that to hand and cleat.
This board could have a low enough aspect (and a fairing in front of
it?) to add not too much drag, its mounting would be way strong, and it
might make the Micro point quite well. 'Twouldn't be much trouble to
try it, though I'd feel a little funny trying to make the Micro
anything it isn't.
Your note about adding a leeboard to a Long Micro brings this
response/question from me. First an observation: The Micro I have seems
to sail on the wind pretty well in some conditions. Middling winds, I
would say. It makes a lot of leeway in very light airs and in strong
breezes, or so I'd say after rather little sailing, half a dozen good
outings. Enough leeway sometimes that I have wondered about a simple
addition. Wonder how it strikes you:
What about a sinking leeboard so shaped and sized as to fit alongside
the fixed keel, shaped to fit in its shadow, pivoted on a bolt that
goes through keel, with a pendant that leads from the board to a cheek
block on same, near the bottom, then aft to a turning block at one of
the holes in the after well, and up through that to hand and cleat.
This board could have a low enough aspect (and a fairing in front of
it?) to add not too much drag, its mounting would be way strong, and it
might make the Micro point quite well. 'Twouldn't be much trouble to
try it, though I'd feel a little funny trying to make the Micro
anything it isn't.
Hi Bill,
first, thanks for putting together the Flikr photos of your LM build.
Second, thanks for the movie compilation of how she sails. Brilliant!
Third, a suggestion below for increased Micro sailing performance that
I've thought about sometimes. It's one modification that PCB seems to
have considered from time to time also. I doubt you're very interested
in anything additional to what you have, you seem well pleased, still,
maybe in the far future...
It seems PCB has conceived, occaisionally designed, and rarely had
built much larger salient keel sharpies than Micro or Long Micro.
Regarding his 55'er LM-like concept, which is very like looking at just
a proportionally narrower Long Micro hull, he wrote:
"A similar design did work out quite well, at least long enough to get
from Toronto to Miami where we last heard of her... A keel like this is
not very efficient close-hauled, but its strength and simplicity made
it the best choice in this case. The option was open to add leeboards
later. She would also be slower in stays than is ideal in a sharpie,
but a similar configuration has given no problems in several smaller
boats."
Efficiency close hauled an issue? Then leeboards, or other higher
aspect foils, perhaps an internal or external single, simple, and light
bilge-daggerboard as in Jessie Cooper or Anhinga might be worth more
than their added trouble. A Michalak, no-fuss, pivoting, single
leeboard?
The Monster Micro instanced below is likely not a Bolger keel sharpie,
but the early AS-29. However, its relevance here regarding better
sailing performance close hauled in light air is its bilgeboards.
MAIB, chronology (pedigree?):
Vol06 No22 p20 (~2/1/1989)
Monster Micro, AS-29(Bruce) Monster Micro 29'6" Micro Cat Yawl(Roger)
Vol11 No08 p22 (~9/1/1989)
Long Micro (Bruce & Roger indexes)
Vol11 No10 (~10/1/1989)
Long Micro Build (Bruce)
Vol16 No06 p24 (~8/15/1998)
Keel Sharpie Family Live-On-Board Concept, BoD, 55'x9.5'x3'(Bruce,Roger)
Cheers
Graeme
first, thanks for putting together the Flikr photos of your LM build.
Second, thanks for the movie compilation of how she sails. Brilliant!
Third, a suggestion below for increased Micro sailing performance that
I've thought about sometimes. It's one modification that PCB seems to
have considered from time to time also. I doubt you're very interested
in anything additional to what you have, you seem well pleased, still,
maybe in the far future...
It seems PCB has conceived, occaisionally designed, and rarely had
built much larger salient keel sharpies than Micro or Long Micro.
Regarding his 55'er LM-like concept, which is very like looking at just
a proportionally narrower Long Micro hull, he wrote:
"A similar design did work out quite well, at least long enough to get
from Toronto to Miami where we last heard of her... A keel like this is
not very efficient close-hauled, but its strength and simplicity made
it the best choice in this case. The option was open to add leeboards
later. She would also be slower in stays than is ideal in a sharpie,
but a similar configuration has given no problems in several smaller
boats."
Efficiency close hauled an issue? Then leeboards, or other higher
aspect foils, perhaps an internal or external single, simple, and light
bilge-daggerboard as in Jessie Cooper or Anhinga might be worth more
than their added trouble. A Michalak, no-fuss, pivoting, single
leeboard?
The Monster Micro instanced below is likely not a Bolger keel sharpie,
but the early AS-29. However, its relevance here regarding better
sailing performance close hauled in light air is its bilgeboards.
MAIB, chronology (pedigree?):
Vol06 No22 p20 (~2/1/1989)
Monster Micro, AS-29(Bruce) Monster Micro 29'6" Micro Cat Yawl(Roger)
Vol11 No08 p22 (~9/1/1989)
Long Micro (Bruce & Roger indexes)
Vol11 No10 (~10/1/1989)
Long Micro Build (Bruce)
Vol16 No06 p24 (~8/15/1998)
Keel Sharpie Family Live-On-Board Concept, BoD, 55'x9.5'x3'(Bruce,Roger)
Cheers
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@...> wrote:
...
> What would help? ...
>First, my mast is a little oversized and thick. I
> think the mast-thickness disrupts airflow at the luff and hurts my
> pointing ability just a bit. It's not serious and I have not plans to
> reshape my mast, but I think it matters. In light winds (below 4
> knots) the boat points like crap and a jib would help. I spent one
> afternoon watching three sloops come tearing past me at about 3 knts,
> in light airs, while I managed about .8 knts and swatted flies. Again,
> I have no intent of putting a jib on my LM, but even thought it has a
> lot of canvas, it's not a boat for ghosting to windward...
Bill,
Should have added one more thing to that last post ; at the present
time it's almost too hot here for sailing, - or garden shed building,
for that matter!
In fact once the weather gets a little cooler, sailing is more
pleasant, so Autumn's not a bad time at all here, on the water. In
fact there really is no sailing season as such as winter isn't cold
enough in this neck of the woods to put all that many people off
sailing totally.
Anyway, that's one of the reasons that I've been building a Michalak
Scram Pram (with smaller rig) because the "Birdwatcher" design gives
a lot more protection from the sun than a cabin/cockpit boat. many
people predict that a "birdwatcher" would be too hot but I haven't
heard anything from anyone with actual sailing experience of them
here yet.
There's at least one Birdwatcher in Northern NSW somewhere and that
may be about it, so far??
There's a woodenboatforum over here which is quite a good little
forum and I tried to stir up a bit of comment on the
Bolger "Birdwatcher" design with a thread there recently which didn't
go very far!
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=85118
By the way, yesterday I posted a link to your Youtube video on that
forum too. Hope that's OK with you, Bill!
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=86576
Mind you, I'd had a couple of new year bubblies by then so the
spelling went out the window! Then again, it could have been all
that sun in the backyard struggling with the garden shed!
GregF
Should have added one more thing to that last post ; at the present
time it's almost too hot here for sailing, - or garden shed building,
for that matter!
In fact once the weather gets a little cooler, sailing is more
pleasant, so Autumn's not a bad time at all here, on the water. In
fact there really is no sailing season as such as winter isn't cold
enough in this neck of the woods to put all that many people off
sailing totally.
Anyway, that's one of the reasons that I've been building a Michalak
Scram Pram (with smaller rig) because the "Birdwatcher" design gives
a lot more protection from the sun than a cabin/cockpit boat. many
people predict that a "birdwatcher" would be too hot but I haven't
heard anything from anyone with actual sailing experience of them
here yet.
There's at least one Birdwatcher in Northern NSW somewhere and that
may be about it, so far??
There's a woodenboatforum over here which is quite a good little
forum and I tried to stir up a bit of comment on the
Bolger "Birdwatcher" design with a thread there recently which didn't
go very far!
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=85118
By the way, yesterday I posted a link to your Youtube video on that
forum too. Hope that's OK with you, Bill!
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=86576
Mind you, I'd had a couple of new year bubblies by then so the
spelling went out the window! Then again, it could have been all
that sun in the backyard struggling with the garden shed!
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Well I shouldn't even say this then Bill, but it's more a question
of
> making priorities about how to spend the time off rather than not
> actually having time off, at all. In fact I don't go back to work
> till Monday but a garden shed to assemble and a fence to paint took
> priority this break.
>
> I know, I wonder if I should see a counsellor?
>
> That mainsail on LM looks very big and your comments on healing
sound
> as though you have been sailing the boat pretty hard!
>
> Impressive, to a total chicken like me!
>
> But the stability of the smaller Micro, too, is very impressive and
> as Chuck Merrell? says on his Micro Page, even the smaller Micro
> feels more like a 30ft'er So I'm sure you're not exaggerating at
all
> when you compare the stability of your LM to a Catalina 30.
>
> Keep the videos coming and the sailing reports!
>
> Thanks again Bill
>
> GregF
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@> wrote:
> >
> > Greg,
> > It's summer! Don't they give you more time off for Micro
sailing?
> > I muddle through the winter months by convincing myself that
> > micro-nauts in the southern hemisphere are busy sailing.
> > Reality is ruining my dreamy vision of the life you're living.
> >
> > I hope you find time in March, have an adventure, and tell us
about
> > it. If you don't get to sail, lie and tell us a great yarn
anyway.
> >
> > The stability of the LM impressed me too, as I had expected. I'll
> > watch other, 20-25 foot sail boats at the dock as their crew moves
> > about, and they dip and heel and their masts swing about the sky
> like
> > seismograph needles. Nothing doing on the LM. She's as stable
at
> the
> > dock as my friend's Catalina 30.
> >
> > Under sail she's equally as stable, even when heeled over too
far.
> I
> > had thought, for some reason, her stability would diminish when
> heeled
> > past 45 degrees- it just seemed as if the flat bottom would lose
> it's
> > righting power. I had read she sails best with around 15-20
degrees
> > of heel (true). But I've had my LM over pretty far (methinks 60-
70
> > degrees on one, white-knuckle day. I wasn't sailing at that angle,
> > rather I was enjoying a "slight" knockdown and standing on the
> cockpit
> > coaming looking down, into the lake). Even at 60-70 degrees she
has
> > plenty of righting power, and up she comes.
> >
> > The design looks after fools rather well, as I have found,
provided
> > one does not allow the boom to dip into a wave and harden the
> mainsheet.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Bill
> > >
> > > Both for posting the video on Youtube and for the comments on
the
> way
> > > your LM sails. I think the videos show just how steady the
boat
> is
> > > in the water and that is one of the first things that impressed
> me
> > > about Micro.
> > >
> > > You have the added advantage of the mast in a tabernacle, too!
> > >
> > > Great pictures and thanks again
> > >
> > > I think my new year resolution will be to actually get our
Micro
> in
> > > the water again!... and also get a video! Should have a week
off
> > > around March or so to do that.
> > >
> > > GregF
> > >
> > >>>snip<<<<
> >
>
Well I shouldn't even say this then Bill, but it's more a question of
making priorities about how to spend the time off rather than not
actually having time off, at all. In fact I don't go back to work
till Monday but a garden shed to assemble and a fence to paint took
priority this break.
I know, I wonder if I should see a counsellor?
That mainsail on LM looks very big and your comments on healing sound
as though you have been sailing the boat pretty hard!
Impressive, to a total chicken like me!
But the stability of the smaller Micro, too, is very impressive and
as Chuck Merrell? says on his Micro Page, even the smaller Micro
feels more like a 30ft'er So I'm sure you're not exaggerating at all
when you compare the stability of your LM to a Catalina 30.
Keep the videos coming and the sailing reports!
Thanks again Bill
GregF
making priorities about how to spend the time off rather than not
actually having time off, at all. In fact I don't go back to work
till Monday but a garden shed to assemble and a fence to paint took
priority this break.
I know, I wonder if I should see a counsellor?
That mainsail on LM looks very big and your comments on healing sound
as though you have been sailing the boat pretty hard!
Impressive, to a total chicken like me!
But the stability of the smaller Micro, too, is very impressive and
as Chuck Merrell? says on his Micro Page, even the smaller Micro
feels more like a 30ft'er So I'm sure you're not exaggerating at all
when you compare the stability of your LM to a Catalina 30.
Keep the videos coming and the sailing reports!
Thanks again Bill
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Greg,
> It's summer! Don't they give you more time off for Micro sailing?
> I muddle through the winter months by convincing myself that
> micro-nauts in the southern hemisphere are busy sailing.
> Reality is ruining my dreamy vision of the life you're living.
>
> I hope you find time in March, have an adventure, and tell us about
> it. If you don't get to sail, lie and tell us a great yarn anyway.
>
> The stability of the LM impressed me too, as I had expected. I'll
> watch other, 20-25 foot sail boats at the dock as their crew moves
> about, and they dip and heel and their masts swing about the sky
like
> seismograph needles. Nothing doing on the LM. She's as stable at
the
> dock as my friend's Catalina 30.
>
> Under sail she's equally as stable, even when heeled over too far.
I
> had thought, for some reason, her stability would diminish when
heeled
> past 45 degrees- it just seemed as if the flat bottom would lose
it's
> righting power. I had read she sails best with around 15-20 degrees
> of heel (true). But I've had my LM over pretty far (methinks 60-70
> degrees on one, white-knuckle day. I wasn't sailing at that angle,
> rather I was enjoying a "slight" knockdown and standing on the
cockpit
> coaming looking down, into the lake). Even at 60-70 degrees she has
> plenty of righting power, and up she comes.
>
> The design looks after fools rather well, as I have found, provided
> one does not allow the boom to dip into a wave and harden the
mainsheet.
>
> Bill
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Bill
> >
> > Both for posting the video on Youtube and for the comments on the
way
> > your LM sails. I think the videos show just how steady the boat
is
> > in the water and that is one of the first things that impressed
me
> > about Micro.
> >
> > You have the added advantage of the mast in a tabernacle, too!
> >
> > Great pictures and thanks again
> >
> > I think my new year resolution will be to actually get our Micro
in
> > the water again!... and also get a video! Should have a week off
> > around March or so to do that.
> >
> > GregF
> >
> >>>snip<<<<
>
Bill -
The Workskiff project has slowed to a crawl with the boat protected in
a very small unheated garage. This time of year I scarf up the long
pieces for the rails in the basement, and work on securing materials.
I am currently searching for a suitable trailer with some help from
craigslist. It's 18F outside with 10" of snow falling this afternoon.
No building today.
David
The Workskiff project has slowed to a crawl with the boat protected in
a very small unheated garage. This time of year I scarf up the long
pieces for the rails in the basement, and work on securing materials.
I am currently searching for a suitable trailer with some help from
craigslist. It's 18F outside with 10" of snow falling this afternoon.
No building today.
David
Greg,
It's summer! Don't they give you more time off for Micro sailing?
I muddle through the winter months by convincing myself that
micro-nauts in the southern hemisphere are busy sailing.
Reality is ruining my dreamy vision of the life you're living.
I hope you find time in March, have an adventure, and tell us about
it. If you don't get to sail, lie and tell us a great yarn anyway.
The stability of the LM impressed me too, as I had expected. I'll
watch other, 20-25 foot sail boats at the dock as their crew moves
about, and they dip and heel and their masts swing about the sky like
seismograph needles. Nothing doing on the LM. She's as stable at the
dock as my friend's Catalina 30.
Under sail she's equally as stable, even when heeled over too far. I
had thought, for some reason, her stability would diminish when heeled
past 45 degrees- it just seemed as if the flat bottom would lose it's
righting power. I had read she sails best with around 15-20 degrees
of heel (true). But I've had my LM over pretty far (methinks 60-70
degrees on one, white-knuckle day. I wasn't sailing at that angle,
rather I was enjoying a "slight" knockdown and standing on the cockpit
coaming looking down, into the lake). Even at 60-70 degrees she has
plenty of righting power, and up she comes.
The design looks after fools rather well, as I have found, provided
one does not allow the boom to dip into a wave and harden the mainsheet.
Bill
It's summer! Don't they give you more time off for Micro sailing?
I muddle through the winter months by convincing myself that
micro-nauts in the southern hemisphere are busy sailing.
Reality is ruining my dreamy vision of the life you're living.
I hope you find time in March, have an adventure, and tell us about
it. If you don't get to sail, lie and tell us a great yarn anyway.
The stability of the LM impressed me too, as I had expected. I'll
watch other, 20-25 foot sail boats at the dock as their crew moves
about, and they dip and heel and their masts swing about the sky like
seismograph needles. Nothing doing on the LM. She's as stable at the
dock as my friend's Catalina 30.
Under sail she's equally as stable, even when heeled over too far. I
had thought, for some reason, her stability would diminish when heeled
past 45 degrees- it just seemed as if the flat bottom would lose it's
righting power. I had read she sails best with around 15-20 degrees
of heel (true). But I've had my LM over pretty far (methinks 60-70
degrees on one, white-knuckle day. I wasn't sailing at that angle,
rather I was enjoying a "slight" knockdown and standing on the cockpit
coaming looking down, into the lake). Even at 60-70 degrees she has
plenty of righting power, and up she comes.
The design looks after fools rather well, as I have found, provided
one does not allow the boom to dip into a wave and harden the mainsheet.
Bill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Bill
>
> Both for posting the video on Youtube and for the comments on the way
> your LM sails. I think the videos show just how steady the boat is
> in the water and that is one of the first things that impressed me
> about Micro.
>
> You have the added advantage of the mast in a tabernacle, too!
>
> Great pictures and thanks again
>
> I think my new year resolution will be to actually get our Micro in
> the water again!... and also get a video! Should have a week off
> around March or so to do that.
>
> GregF
>
>>>snip<<<<
David,
Cool. When I was a kid I used to go flounder fishing w/ my dad in a
12 foot aluminum boat, We would launch in Hull, MA and putter into
Boston harbor. Those were some of the most anticipated days when I
was young. That whole coastline of MA is great for cruising (not that
I did any myself). How's the worksskiff coming along? Cold weather's
tough on getting boats built...
Bill
Cool. When I was a kid I used to go flounder fishing w/ my dad in a
12 foot aluminum boat, We would launch in Hull, MA and putter into
Boston harbor. Those were some of the most anticipated days when I
was young. That whole coastline of MA is great for cruising (not that
I did any myself). How's the worksskiff coming along? Cold weather's
tough on getting boats built...
Bill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
> The completion of my Micro coincided with my Dad's decision to sell
> the place on Cape Cod. We sailed her on Nantucket Sound, Buzzards
> Bay, Boston Harbor, Salem (great place for a Micro as the waves are
> far apart). On one sail in Salem harbor we blew past a Pearson 26. I
> decided to sell her while she was in great shape to Rob Grogan who
> lurks here on occasion. Recently, I have been at the mercy of OPB
> (other people's boats) as I crew for beer. I am hoping to finish the
> workskiff this spring and then get to work on the BWII over the
> summer. The workskiff is real important as the Diablo was my key to
> fishing adventures.
>
Thanks Bill
Both for posting the video on Youtube and for the comments on the way
your LM sails. I think the videos show just how steady the boat is
in the water and that is one of the first things that impressed me
about Micro.
You have the added advantage of the mast in a tabernacle, too!
Great pictures and thanks again
I think my new year resolution will be to actually get our Micro in
the water again!... and also get a video! Should have a week off
around March or so to do that.
GregF
Both for posting the video on Youtube and for the comments on the way
your LM sails. I think the videos show just how steady the boat is
in the water and that is one of the first things that impressed me
about Micro.
You have the added advantage of the mast in a tabernacle, too!
Great pictures and thanks again
I think my new year resolution will be to actually get our Micro in
the water again!... and also get a video! Should have a week off
around March or so to do that.
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I created a compilation of videos from a summer of sailing my
> Long Micro (Pugnacious) on Lake Erie. I posted the video to You
Tube.
> The video is all shot from the captain's perspective, so there are
no
> external shots of my LM under sail, but they give a feel for how she
> sails in different conditions and on different headings. I have
been
> overjoyed with how she sails and handles and I'm looking forward to
> another summer of sailing adventures.
>
> It's cold and wintry and the only things to do are tinker with
little
> projects on Pug, and dream about warmer water and sunnier days
sailing.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg5iRw0xpYg
> Key words: Bolger, long, micro, sail, boat
>
> Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
> in Ohio
>
The completion of my Micro coincided with my Dad's decision to sell
the place on Cape Cod. We sailed her on Nantucket Sound, Buzzards
Bay, Boston Harbor, Salem (great place for a Micro as the waves are
far apart). On one sail in Salem harbor we blew past a Pearson 26. I
decided to sell her while she was in great shape to Rob Grogan who
lurks here on occasion. Recently, I have been at the mercy of OPB
(other people's boats) as I crew for beer. I am hoping to finish the
workskiff this spring and then get to work on the BWII over the
summer. The workskiff is real important as the Diablo was my key to
fishing adventures.
the place on Cape Cod. We sailed her on Nantucket Sound, Buzzards
Bay, Boston Harbor, Salem (great place for a Micro as the waves are
far apart). On one sail in Salem harbor we blew past a Pearson 26. I
decided to sell her while she was in great shape to Rob Grogan who
lurks here on occasion. Recently, I have been at the mercy of OPB
(other people's boats) as I crew for beer. I am hoping to finish the
workskiff this spring and then get to work on the BWII over the
summer. The workskiff is real important as the Diablo was my key to
fishing adventures.
David,
Using the track-log function on my GPS (which show COG instead of
where the bow is pointing), I can get to 60 degrees off the wind on
each tack when there are waves. In calm waters with a good wind I
have been able to get within 55 degrees of the wind, but that's rare.
I'm usually sneaking upwind into a protected anchorage to get better
than 60 degrees. I've noticed that when beating into waves, the waves
hit the bow (not necessarily the hull sides, but the keel where it
meets the bow) and push the bow down, to leeward. Then the sails pull
the bow back up, to windward, and the process repeats itself.
The process is very subtle and I only noticed it for the first time
this season. I just looked at my tracklog from that day (the last part
of the clip) and I see I was doing 5 mph when I kept her loose, and
around 4 mph when I was trying to point higher- my tacks were still
around 60 degrees.
I recall Dan Gonneau saying that his LM went to windward well, but it
was no J24. I concur. I spent a couple days sailing a Beneteau
44-something-or-other, and I was only able to get it within 53 degrees
of the wind without luffing. Maybe the problem is with the the nut
behind the tiller? Regardless, when the winds are decent my LM points
about as well as the other sailboats I see.
What would help? First, my mast is a little oversized and thick. I
think the mast-thickness disrupts airflow at the luff and hurts my
pointing ability just a bit. It's not serious and I have not plans to
reshape my mast, but I think it matters. In light winds (below 4
knots) the boat points like crap and a jib would help. I spent one
afternoon watching three sloops come tearing past me at about 3 knts,
in light airs, while I managed about .8 knts and swatted flies. Again,
I have no intent of putting a jib on my LM, but even thought it has a
lot of canvas, it's not a boat for ghosting to windward.
The waves during the last part of the video were huge (for me). I get
my wind and wave data from the NDBC website (there's a buoy in Lake
Erie which records wave height) but my eyeball always says the waves
are about 50 percent larger than the buoy reports. I think our eyes
exaggerate wave height but the video shrinks them. On that day I ran
the bow dead-into a couple of oncoming waves and had water come over
the top of the bow and into the anchor well. No worries- she's a
stable, tough little boat.
Yes, off the wind those things fly!
I loved watching you build your micro and still look at your webpage
sometime. There isn't enough micro/LM stuff on the web. What
happened your micro? Didn't you sail her on Lake Cochichuate?
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
in Ohio
Using the track-log function on my GPS (which show COG instead of
where the bow is pointing), I can get to 60 degrees off the wind on
each tack when there are waves. In calm waters with a good wind I
have been able to get within 55 degrees of the wind, but that's rare.
I'm usually sneaking upwind into a protected anchorage to get better
than 60 degrees. I've noticed that when beating into waves, the waves
hit the bow (not necessarily the hull sides, but the keel where it
meets the bow) and push the bow down, to leeward. Then the sails pull
the bow back up, to windward, and the process repeats itself.
The process is very subtle and I only noticed it for the first time
this season. I just looked at my tracklog from that day (the last part
of the clip) and I see I was doing 5 mph when I kept her loose, and
around 4 mph when I was trying to point higher- my tacks were still
around 60 degrees.
I recall Dan Gonneau saying that his LM went to windward well, but it
was no J24. I concur. I spent a couple days sailing a Beneteau
44-something-or-other, and I was only able to get it within 53 degrees
of the wind without luffing. Maybe the problem is with the the nut
behind the tiller? Regardless, when the winds are decent my LM points
about as well as the other sailboats I see.
What would help? First, my mast is a little oversized and thick. I
think the mast-thickness disrupts airflow at the luff and hurts my
pointing ability just a bit. It's not serious and I have not plans to
reshape my mast, but I think it matters. In light winds (below 4
knots) the boat points like crap and a jib would help. I spent one
afternoon watching three sloops come tearing past me at about 3 knts,
in light airs, while I managed about .8 knts and swatted flies. Again,
I have no intent of putting a jib on my LM, but even thought it has a
lot of canvas, it's not a boat for ghosting to windward.
The waves during the last part of the video were huge (for me). I get
my wind and wave data from the NDBC website (there's a buoy in Lake
Erie which records wave height) but my eyeball always says the waves
are about 50 percent larger than the buoy reports. I think our eyes
exaggerate wave height but the video shrinks them. On that day I ran
the bow dead-into a couple of oncoming waves and had water come over
the top of the bow and into the anchor well. No worries- she's a
stable, tough little boat.
Yes, off the wind those things fly!
I loved watching you build your micro and still look at your webpage
sometime. There isn't enough micro/LM stuff on the web. What
happened your micro? Didn't you sail her on Lake Cochichuate?
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
in Ohio
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
> Wow. that was way cool. Thanks for sharing. How close can you point
> in those 3' seas? My Micro was a great boat off the wind, but not
> close winded in a seaway. I am willing to bet that with the longer
> keel the long Micro fairs better.
>
Wow. that was way cool. Thanks for sharing. How close can you point
in those 3' seas? My Micro was a great boat off the wind, but not
close winded in a seaway. I am willing to bet that with the longer
keel the long Micro fairs better.
in those 3' seas? My Micro was a great boat off the wind, but not
close winded in a seaway. I am willing to bet that with the longer
keel the long Micro fairs better.
Hi all,
I created a compilation of videos from a summer of sailing my
Long Micro (Pugnacious) on Lake Erie. I posted the video to You Tube.
The video is all shot from the captain's perspective, so there are no
external shots of my LM under sail, but they give a feel for how she
sails in different conditions and on different headings. I have been
overjoyed with how she sails and handles and I'm looking forward to
another summer of sailing adventures.
It's cold and wintry and the only things to do are tinker with little
projects on Pug, and dream about warmer water and sunnier days sailing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg5iRw0xpYg
Key words: Bolger, long, micro, sail, boat
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
in Ohio
I created a compilation of videos from a summer of sailing my
Long Micro (Pugnacious) on Lake Erie. I posted the video to You Tube.
The video is all shot from the captain's perspective, so there are no
external shots of my LM under sail, but they give a feel for how she
sails in different conditions and on different headings. I have been
overjoyed with how she sails and handles and I'm looking forward to
another summer of sailing adventures.
It's cold and wintry and the only things to do are tinker with little
projects on Pug, and dream about warmer water and sunnier days sailing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg5iRw0xpYg
Key words: Bolger, long, micro, sail, boat
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
in Ohio