Re: Rudder end-plates on a Micro
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
Graeme
>The outboard seems a step backwards, and high... is it on a vertically sliding mount affixed to the port side of the transom?
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gMyVSpwQlJ1a4EigDA6Jis-istYdvXjRSf0faiUi5EahvnaYD6cKn4ui7pbLorEIg55y10QBkTaWPR4pxenAMdeUvVFtJFX7AVwR_A/Bolger%20scans/Long%20Micro%2C%20glass%20house.jpg
Graeme
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gMyVSpwQlJ1a4EigDA6Jis-istYdvXjRSf0faiUi5EahvnaYD6cKn4ui7pbLorEIg55y10QBkTaWPR4pxenAMdeUvVFtJFX7AVwR_A/Bolger%20scans/Long%20Micro%2C%20glass%20house.jpg
Oh wow, no I hadn't seen that. I thought you referrered to Nel's cut and paste graphic of various things grafted into a Liveaboard Long Micro (after the Singlehand Liveaboard design).
This Glasshouse LM reminds of the Micro Paloma Blanka does it not? I wonder if one influenced the builder of the other? Seperate hemispheres, but close timing it would appear. PCB approved Roger's sketched changes for Paloma Blanca.
The "Glasshouse" might make a liveaboard by more glassing in and raising the aft deck to the sheer to gain interior volume. Must study this mod some more. What's with the powered mast?
Graeme
Oh wow, no I hadn't seen that. I thought you referrered to Nel's cut and paste graphic of various things grafted into a Liveaboard Long Micro (after the Singlehand Liveaboard design).
This Glasshouse LM reminds of the Micro Paloma Blanka does it not? I wonder if one influenced the builder of the other? Seperate hemispheres, but close timing it would appear. PCB approved Roger's sketched changes for Paloma Blanca.
The "Glasshouse" might make a liveaboard by more glassing in and raising the aft deck to the sheer to gain interior volume. Must study this mod some more. What's with the powered mast?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry Graeme, didn't see this till just now.
>
> The pic. is in the Files section of Bolger 2 I think it is about the tenth folder down uploaded on Dec 9th 2001 by Bruce Hector
>
> When you click on that folder it is the fifth document down Long Micro. glass house
>
> The photo isn't fantastic, it's from a a newspaper ad.
>
>
> Greg
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@> wrote:
> >
> > I'd like to see this. I've looked at bolger2 files and couldn't find it.
> >
> > I'm currently toying with notions of a stretched by way of plug, centre cockpit, sheerless Wish II. Interchangeable dipping lug rig.
> >
> > Much aero-drag from the sharp topsides-deck junction. A bit of rounding can reduce it drastically, as seen on multi superstructures, and as worked for the hydro-drag on the Doviekie chine. Improved performance beating - not so much in speed for this boat, but in leeway angle.
> >
> > Seating on the pitch and roll axes, assymetric leeboards, dipping lug, and sheer rounding for the long beat when against the trades - is it worth it?
> >
> > Graeme
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Greg,
> > > Ah yes, the LLM. Pleasing to the eye.
> > > Bill
> >
>
The measurements of Gloucester Yawl are remarkably close proportionally to that of the light dories. The sponsons _may_ allow easier crew movement on a little extra "deck space" than in the dories, but WLL, OL, WLB, OB, freeboard, draft, initial stability, reserve stability, etc, are similar. The dory will be much drier, much less noisy, and easier to build. GY is one of PCB's wittiest jests.
Graeme
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> Chris makes some good points, though for the sake of discussion let me
> add: This boat reveals some of the genius of Phil Bolger, where he
> created designs with specific purposes. I see the Glouchester Yawl as
> filling a specific niche extremely well! That being, a simple as safe
> boat for a group of energetic people to uses having fun. I especially
> like how it has an efficient shape for a group of people to row
> together, (with the box keel) and then when sailed it presents a wider
> more stable shape to the water. The sail rig has enough sheets and
> complexity to keep everyone involved, using teamwork, which is a great
> way to play. I disagree about the difficulty building, with the
> expanded panels this would be a relatively fast build for a 21 footer.
> As to the looks, yes, it might be an acquired taste, but function
> trumps form in my eye, and this boat appears to have plenty of PCB
> function!
>
> Here are a few isometrics...
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/tags/glouchester/
I agree, Stitch and glue is easy and less intimidating for a newbe to
grasp but it is not any easier or faster than plywood over frames.
Coating with fiberglass and epoxy and filling and finishing the surface
soaks up 50% of the time to finish.
HJ
John and Kathy Trussell wrote:
grasp but it is not any easier or faster than plywood over frames.
Coating with fiberglass and epoxy and filling and finishing the surface
soaks up 50% of the time to finish.
HJ
John and Kathy Trussell wrote:
>
>
> One of the great delusions about stitch and glue boats is that they
> are “instant”. The hull shape goes together very quickly, but all the
> rest of the boat takes just as long and the filling/sanding necessary
> to bake the taped seams fair take s forever.
>
> I have found that using “abranet” paper on a random orbital sander,
> hooked to a shop vac speeds the process and reduces dust to a minimum.
>
> As y’all have observed, it takes longer to sand and finish a bigger
> boat than a smaller one. To which I will add that the time necessary
> to build a boat varies directly with the number of pieces in the boat.
>
> JohnT
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *dnjost
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 01, 2009 10:37 PM
> *To:*bolger@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* [bolger] Re: Rudder end-plates on a Micro
>
> I concur with the sanding issue on larger boats. I am pretty sure I
> talked myself out of an AS29 with the finish work on the 18'
> Workskiff. Filling, sanding, filling, priming, painting. takes
> forever. I tried some shortcuts that really set me back quite a bit.
>
>
>
>
> That was my surprise about using lapstrake, which because of the lapsPCB said over and over that the methods that seem to be the easiest are not necessarily the easiest, and also that taking time to learn how to do something a little more sophisticated can pay big dividends.
> requires less accuracy than panels.
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 5:37 AM, John and Kathy
Trussell<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
requires less accuracy than panels. (You can miss by an inch or more
and it still works.) Lapstrake can be fast because of the lowered
requirement for accuracy, at least for me. :)
advantages of working from coarse to fine tooling. Starting with an
powerful angle grinder with 40 grit, then a belt sander with 60 grit,
and then the random orbital. Also taking advantage of spot fillers,
speeds things up.
Trussell<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>That was my surprise about using lapstrake, which because of the laps
>
> One of the great delusions about stitch and glue boats is that they are
> “instant”. The hull shape goes together very quickly, but all the rest of
> the boat takes just as long and the filling/sanding necessary to bake the
> taped seams fair take s forever.
requires less accuracy than panels. (You can miss by an inch or more
and it still works.) Lapstrake can be fast because of the lowered
requirement for accuracy, at least for me. :)
>After a painful learning curve, I have grown to appreciate the
>
> I have found that using “abranet” paper on a random orbital sander, hooked
> to a shop vac speeds the process and reduces dust to a minimum.
>
advantages of working from coarse to fine tooling. Starting with an
powerful angle grinder with 40 grit, then a belt sander with 60 grit,
and then the random orbital. Also taking advantage of spot fillers,
speeds things up.
>Number of pieces, plus total surface area.
> As y’all have observed, it takes longer to sand and finish a bigger boat
> than a smaller one. To which I will add that the time necessary to build a
> boat varies directly with the number of pieces in the boat.
>
>
>
> JohnT
> Singapore trainer? must look that one up.The easiest way to describe the Singapore trainer is as one of the shapely pulling boats, Spur II I think, enlarged to a little over 30 feet. It was for a naval training school. PB&F published a picture in MAIB of the finished boat dashing along in a breeze with about 15 men aboard. It's a complex shape and not a simple build.
IMHO (and I'm not a builder so I should really hold my tongue), the project you have in mind is getting to the size where you don't want to compromise the cost of materials by using an over-simple shape.
One of the great delusions about stitch and glue boats is that they are “instant”. The hull shape goes together very quickly, but all the rest of the boat takes just as long and the filling/sanding necessary to bake the taped seams fair take s forever.
I have found that using “abranet” paper on a random orbital sander, hooked to a shop vac speeds the process and reduces dust to a minimum.
As y’all have observed, it takes longer to sand and finish a bigger boat than a smaller one. To which I will add that the time necessary to build a boat varies directly with the number of pieces in the boat.
JohnT
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Ofdnjost
Sent:Saturday, August 01, 2009
10:37 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Re: Rudder
end-plates on a Micro
I concur with the sanding issue on larger boats. I am pretty sure I talked myself out of an AS29 with the finish work on the 18' Workskiff. Filling, sanding, filling, priming, painting. takes forever. I tried some shortcuts that really set me back quite a bit.
I concur with the sanding issue on larger boats. I am pretty sure I talked myself out of an AS29 with the finish work on the 18' Workskiff. Filling, sanding, filling, priming, painting. takes forever. I tried some shortcuts that really set me back quite a bit.
On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Greg Flemming<greg@...> wrote:
more easy if you can tolerate 'work boat' finishing. (As sanding a
big boat smooth takes a lot of time due to greater surface area.)
designed for crew displacement, and if it was not filled up with crew
it would ride higher on that center sponson. And riding high while
upright, as when rowing, it would have a tipping quality from the
center sponson to the side 'seat' floatation if the crew shifted to
one side. This would be a disconcerting feeling, but not much to
worry about. It would be stable when sailed leaned over like
intended. Full up with crew weight it would feel more stable I think.
> Stitch & Glue should make the Gloucester Yawl easier to build though,Yes, it would be as easy as any 21 foot plywood expanded panel boat,
> shouldn't it?
more easy if you can tolerate 'work boat' finishing. (As sanding a
big boat smooth takes a lot of time due to greater surface area.)
>I don't know why it would be wet. It does have the issue that it is
> The comment on the pic. in bolger boat photos is that it was "tricky" and
> wet.
designed for crew displacement, and if it was not filled up with crew
it would ride higher on that center sponson. And riding high while
upright, as when rowing, it would have a tipping quality from the
center sponson to the side 'seat' floatation if the crew shifted to
one side. This would be a disconcerting feeling, but not much to
worry about. It would be stable when sailed leaned over like
intended. Full up with crew weight it would feel more stable I think.
Thanks for the comments about the Gloucester Yawl, all:
Singapore trainer? must look that one up. I agree totally that the Amherst Galley is a wonderful boat, but a MUCH bigger project than a Gloucester Yawl. I guess it is an unusual looking boat but it does have a certain something? There's a picture of one in Bolger Boat Photos, built in San Diego.
Stitch & Glue should make the Gloucester Yawl easier to build though, shouldn't it?
The comment on the pic. in bolger boat photos is that it was "tricky" and wet.
Greg
Singapore trainer? must look that one up. I agree totally that the Amherst Galley is a wonderful boat, but a MUCH bigger project than a Gloucester Yawl. I guess it is an unusual looking boat but it does have a certain something? There's a picture of one in Bolger Boat Photos, built in San Diego.
Stitch & Glue should make the Gloucester Yawl easier to build though, shouldn't it?
The comment on the pic. in bolger boat photos is that it was "tricky" and wet.
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> >> Take the Gloucester Yawl in Small Boats, I am surprised that
> >> this boat
> >> hasn't taken off.
>
> > It might be fun, but it's a hard boat to build (comparatively), ...
>
> I'm with Chris on this one. I think there are lots of better designs for the purpose, including some by PCB. Depending on what characteristics you want to preserve, the Amherst Galley and the Singapore training boat come to mind right away. John Welsford's 6-Meter whaler was designed for about the same purpose.
>
> Anyway, the market (if you want to call it that) has settled on copies of the Cornish Gig for rowing adventures. The program is more important than the boat.
>
> If you want a fast boat and are into history, then a copy of American Star/General Lafayette is very appropriate.
>
Chris makes some good points, though for the sake of discussion let me
add: This boat reveals some of the genius of Phil Bolger, where he
created designs with specific purposes. I see the Glouchester Yawl as
filling a specific niche extremely well! That being, a simple as safe
boat for a group of energetic people to uses having fun. I especially
like how it has an efficient shape for a group of people to row
together, (with the box keel) and then when sailed it presents a wider
more stable shape to the water. The sail rig has enough sheets and
complexity to keep everyone involved, using teamwork, which is a great
way to play. I disagree about the difficulty building, with the
expanded panels this would be a relatively fast build for a 21 footer.
As to the looks, yes, it might be an acquired taste, but function
trumps form in my eye, and this boat appears to have plenty of PCB
function!
Here are a few isometrics...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/tags/glouchester/
add: This boat reveals some of the genius of Phil Bolger, where he
created designs with specific purposes. I see the Glouchester Yawl as
filling a specific niche extremely well! That being, a simple as safe
boat for a group of energetic people to uses having fun. I especially
like how it has an efficient shape for a group of people to row
together, (with the box keel) and then when sailed it presents a wider
more stable shape to the water. The sail rig has enough sheets and
complexity to keep everyone involved, using teamwork, which is a great
way to play. I disagree about the difficulty building, with the
expanded panels this would be a relatively fast build for a 21 footer.
As to the looks, yes, it might be an acquired taste, but function
trumps form in my eye, and this boat appears to have plenty of PCB
function!
Here are a few isometrics...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/tags/glouchester/
>> Take the Gloucester Yawl in Small Boats, I am surprised that this boat
>> hasn't taken off. I can see it as a school trainer for which the
>> design was conceived, but I can also see it as a raid
>> boat, or on something like the Everglades Challenge, for example.
>> I love it!
>
> It might be fun, but it's a hard boat to build (comparatively), and I
> don't think it's handsome. It's not capable of being single-handed, it's
> very boxy looking, and although I'd love to take a sail in it, I
> wouldn't want to own it. The box keel is an acquired taste.
>
> Greg, if you build it, I'll come sail with you.
>
> -Chris
>> Take the Gloucester Yawl in Small Boats, I am surprised thatI'm with Chris on this one. I think there are lots of better designs for the purpose, including some by PCB. Depending on what characteristics you want to preserve, the Amherst Galley and the Singapore training boat come to mind right away. John Welsford's 6-Meter whaler was designed for about the same purpose.
>> this boat
>> hasn't taken off.
> It might be fun, but it's a hard boat to build (comparatively), ...
Anyway, the market (if you want to call it that) has settled on copies of the Cornish Gig for rowing adventures. The program is more important than the boat.
If you want a fast boat and are into history, then a copy of American Star/General Lafayette is very appropriate.
> Take the Gloucester Yawl in Small Boats, I am surprised that this boatIt might be fun, but it's a hard boat to build (comparatively), and I
> hasn't taken off. I can see it as a school trainer for which the
> design was conceived, but I can also see it as a raid
> boat, or on something like the Everglades Challenge, for example.
> I love it!
don't think it's handsome. It's not capable of being single-handed, it's
very boxy looking, and although I'd love to take a sail in it, I
wouldn't want to own it. The box keel is an acquired taste.
Greg, if you build it, I'll come sail with you.
-Chris
The boats are ruthlessly practical; not the books!
Sorry about that.
Greg
Sorry about that.
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Graeme
>
> PCB's books are like him, whimsically creative! But at the same time, they so often seem to be ruthlessly practical and utilitarian.
>
> Take the Gloucester Yawl in Small Boats, I am surprised that this boat hasn't taken off. I can see it as a school trainer for which the design was conceived, but I can also see it as a raid
> boat, or on something like the Everglades Challenge, for example.
>
> I love it!
>
> Greg
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@> wrote:
> >
> > Greg,
> >
> > yes, Jill sails aboard Cooee. She's a regular contributor to CH. That article was very revealing as to how amazingly little it could cost to support the full-time cruising lifestyle. She analysed the situation for 3 categories of lifestyle/boat/expenditure for a solo skipper, you might say from comfortablely modest to comfortably thrifty, and came to the tallies of $10992, 4476, and 2400 pa. A couple living as for the first category came in at $17904 pa. This for the Qld coast, and as she said: for a life of privilege not privation! I usually borrow CH from the library, but I purchased this issue! I take the scenarios, and costs to be fairly realistic - Jill knows this cruising stuff.
> >
> > The "self-built cat" simply refers to a suitable, equivalent catamaran.
> >
> > Do you find that you start reading something in one Bolger book, and before long have them all open as you follow an idea, either your own or his? I find I usually do, and am constantly surprised by what I find. I begin to think that PCB is never fully read and understood... there is always more.
> >
> > Graeme
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Didn't see Jill Knight's article Graeme, didn't she sail Cooee?
> > >
> > > Small is better they say, but what is the self-built cat, I'm wondering?
> > >
> > > Since Phil Bolger's death I've been prompted to get his older books and have now got them all, I think. The progression in his thinking, the paring down to what is essential, the liberation from convention to the point of "an open mind" is fantastic to see.
> > >
> > > I bet, he'd be in agreement with you on that!
> > >
> > > Greg
> >
>
Sorry Graeme, didn't see this till just now.
The pic. is in the Files section of Bolger 2 I think it is about the tenth folder down uploaded on Dec 9th 2001 by Bruce Hector
When you click on that folder it is the fifth document down Long Micro. glass house
The photo isn't fantastic, it's from a a newspaper ad.
Greg
The pic. is in the Files section of Bolger 2 I think it is about the tenth folder down uploaded on Dec 9th 2001 by Bruce Hector
When you click on that folder it is the fifth document down Long Micro. glass house
The photo isn't fantastic, it's from a a newspaper ad.
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
>
> I'd like to see this. I've looked at bolger2 files and couldn't find it.
>
> I'm currently toying with notions of a stretched by way of plug, centre cockpit, sheerless Wish II. Interchangeable dipping lug rig.
>
> Much aero-drag from the sharp topsides-deck junction. A bit of rounding can reduce it drastically, as seen on multi superstructures, and as worked for the hydro-drag on the Doviekie chine. Improved performance beating - not so much in speed for this boat, but in leeway angle.
>
> Seating on the pitch and roll axes, assymetric leeboards, dipping lug, and sheer rounding for the long beat when against the trades - is it worth it?
>
> Graeme
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@> wrote:
> >
> > Greg,
> > Ah yes, the LLM. Pleasing to the eye.
> > Bill
>
Hello Graeme
PCB's books are like him, whimsically creative! But at the same time, they so often seem to be ruthlessly practical and utilitarian.
Take the Gloucester Yawl in Small Boats, I am surprised that this boat hasn't taken off. I can see it as a school trainer for which the design was conceived, but I can also see it as a raid
boat, or on something like the Everglades Challenge, for example.
I love it!
Greg
PCB's books are like him, whimsically creative! But at the same time, they so often seem to be ruthlessly practical and utilitarian.
Take the Gloucester Yawl in Small Boats, I am surprised that this boat hasn't taken off. I can see it as a school trainer for which the design was conceived, but I can also see it as a raid
boat, or on something like the Everglades Challenge, for example.
I love it!
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> yes, Jill sails aboard Cooee. She's a regular contributor to CH. That article was very revealing as to how amazingly little it could cost to support the full-time cruising lifestyle. She analysed the situation for 3 categories of lifestyle/boat/expenditure for a solo skipper, you might say from comfortablely modest to comfortably thrifty, and came to the tallies of $10992, 4476, and 2400 pa. A couple living as for the first category came in at $17904 pa. This for the Qld coast, and as she said: for a life of privilege not privation! I usually borrow CH from the library, but I purchased this issue! I take the scenarios, and costs to be fairly realistic - Jill knows this cruising stuff.
>
> The "self-built cat" simply refers to a suitable, equivalent catamaran.
>
> Do you find that you start reading something in one Bolger book, and before long have them all open as you follow an idea, either your own or his? I find I usually do, and am constantly surprised by what I find. I begin to think that PCB is never fully read and understood... there is always more.
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > Didn't see Jill Knight's article Graeme, didn't she sail Cooee?
> >
> > Small is better they say, but what is the self-built cat, I'm wondering?
> >
> > Since Phil Bolger's death I've been prompted to get his older books and have now got them all, I think. The progression in his thinking, the paring down to what is essential, the liberation from convention to the point of "an open mind" is fantastic to see.
> >
> > I bet, he'd be in agreement with you on that!
> >
> > Greg
>
I'd like to see this. I've looked at bolger2 files and couldn't find it.
I'm currently toying with notions of a stretched by way of plug, centre cockpit, sheerless Wish II. Interchangeable dipping lug rig.
Much aero-drag from the sharp topsides-deck junction. A bit of rounding can reduce it drastically, as seen on multi superstructures, and as worked for the hydro-drag on the Doviekie chine. Improved performance beating - not so much in speed for this boat, but in leeway angle.
Seating on the pitch and roll axes, assymetric leeboards, dipping lug, and sheer rounding for the long beat when against the trades - is it worth it?
Graeme
I'm currently toying with notions of a stretched by way of plug, centre cockpit, sheerless Wish II. Interchangeable dipping lug rig.
Much aero-drag from the sharp topsides-deck junction. A bit of rounding can reduce it drastically, as seen on multi superstructures, and as worked for the hydro-drag on the Doviekie chine. Improved performance beating - not so much in speed for this boat, but in leeway angle.
Seating on the pitch and roll axes, assymetric leeboards, dipping lug, and sheer rounding for the long beat when against the trades - is it worth it?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Greg,
> Ah yes, the LLM. Pleasing to the eye.
> Bill
That link doesn't work for me. Is it in bolger2 files?
Graeme
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Oh! ...and Graeme, have you seen this in the Files section of Bolger II?
>
>
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IIZpSuNlfA-WpCcxtoXE0vIPHr0gVABpoDkrdqAs2zCxI420TIX7NarfAJ6HU5AP09wyB9sFtY3P2pTekuh521mg0Zv6fGToJCGl/Bolger%20scans/Long%20Micro%2C%20glass%20house.jpg
>
> GregF
Greg,
yes, Jill sails aboard Cooee. She's a regular contributor to CH. That article was very revealing as to how amazingly little it could cost to support the full-time cruising lifestyle. She analysed the situation for 3 categories of lifestyle/boat/expenditure for a solo skipper, you might say from comfortablely modest to comfortably thrifty, and came to the tallies of $10992, 4476, and 2400 pa. A couple living as for the first category came in at $17904 pa. This for the Qld coast, and as she said: for a life of privilege not privation! I usually borrow CH from the library, but I purchased this issue! I take the scenarios, and costs to be fairly realistic - Jill knows this cruising stuff.
The "self-built cat" simply refers to a suitable, equivalent catamaran.
Do you find that you start reading something in one Bolger book, and before long have them all open as you follow an idea, either your own or his? I find I usually do, and am constantly surprised by what I find. I begin to think that PCB is never fully read and understood... there is always more.
Graeme
yes, Jill sails aboard Cooee. She's a regular contributor to CH. That article was very revealing as to how amazingly little it could cost to support the full-time cruising lifestyle. She analysed the situation for 3 categories of lifestyle/boat/expenditure for a solo skipper, you might say from comfortablely modest to comfortably thrifty, and came to the tallies of $10992, 4476, and 2400 pa. A couple living as for the first category came in at $17904 pa. This for the Qld coast, and as she said: for a life of privilege not privation! I usually borrow CH from the library, but I purchased this issue! I take the scenarios, and costs to be fairly realistic - Jill knows this cruising stuff.
The "self-built cat" simply refers to a suitable, equivalent catamaran.
Do you find that you start reading something in one Bolger book, and before long have them all open as you follow an idea, either your own or his? I find I usually do, and am constantly surprised by what I find. I begin to think that PCB is never fully read and understood... there is always more.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Didn't see Jill Knight's article Graeme, didn't she sail Cooee?
>
> Small is better they say, but what is the self-built cat, I'm wondering?
>
> Since Phil Bolger's death I've been prompted to get his older books and have now got them all, I think. The progression in his thinking, the paring down to what is essential, the liberation from convention to the point of "an open mind" is fantastic to see.
>
> I bet, he'd be in agreement with you on that!
>
> Greg
Greg,
Ah yes, the LLM. Pleasing to the eye.
Bill
Ah yes, the LLM. Pleasing to the eye.
Bill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there Bill,
>
> You mean that link actually worked? Good Heavens!
>
> Yes, fun boat though, I'd think, so that is the Longer Long Micro.
>
> Greg
> > > > >
> > > > > Graeme
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Graeme, would that be a Long Long Micro?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Hi there Bill,
You mean that link actually worked? Good Heavens!
Yes, fun boat though, I'd think, so that is the Longer Long Micro.
Greg
You mean that link actually worked? Good Heavens!
Yes, fun boat though, I'd think, so that is the Longer Long Micro.
Greg
> > > >
> > > > Graeme
> > > >
> > > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Graeme, would that be a Long Long Micro?
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Greg and Graeme,
Neat picture. I had missed that somehow.
But the LM doesn't look quite right to my eye. Maybe
it's the picture distorting the hull shape. The LM looks
like it has too little freeboard or is too long.
When I use the height of the mizzen as a scale, the hull
appears to be around 24 feet long. (on an LM the mizzen mast
shows 14 feet above the deck).
The LM pictured looks sleek and fast and lean. It looks good.
Just my .02
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
...and not in Ohio for much longer
Neat picture. I had missed that somehow.
But the LM doesn't look quite right to my eye. Maybe
it's the picture distorting the hull shape. The LM looks
like it has too little freeboard or is too long.
When I use the height of the mizzen as a scale, the hull
appears to be around 24 feet long. (on an LM the mizzen mast
shows 14 feet above the deck).
The LM pictured looks sleek and fast and lean. It looks good.
Just my .02
Bill, Long Micro Pugnacious
...and not in Ohio for much longer
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Oh! ...and Graeme, have you seen this in the Files section of Bolger II?
>
>
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IIZpSuNlfA-WpCcxtoXE0vIPHr0gVABpoDkrdqAs2zCxI420TIX7NarfAJ6HU5AP09wyB9sFtY3P2pTekuh521mg0Zv6fGToJCGl/Bolger%20scans/Long%20Micro%2C%20glass%20house.jpg
>
> GregF
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > Didn't see Jill Knight's article Graeme, didn't she sail Cooee?
> >
> > Small is better they say, but what is the self-built cat, I'm wondering?
> >
> > Since Phil Bolger's death I've been prompted to get his older books and have now got them all, I think. The progression in his thinking, the paring down to what is essential, the liberation from convention to the point of "an open mind" is fantastic to see.
> >
> > I bet, he'd be in agreement with you on that!
> >
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@> wrote:
> > >
> > > That, or a shorter "Monster M";-)
> > >
> > > Greg, did you see Jill Knight's article "Cruising on a Shoestring"? (Cruising Helmsman, September 2008, page 16) Did you note the comparitive "table of expenses by category"?
> > >
> > > Transitioning adult kids won't allow me at it full time just yet, but given a 24' or thereabouts Bolger type boat, and then for now I could be a "Spike" kind of guy @ $2400/year (and an hour by jet up the coast away from the landlubber sprockets back home). Adequate for the purpose and far cheaper and capacious than similar sized self-built cat. Good training for skippering a 40+ft steel Bolger perhaps, and even then that may show up Spike's expenses! I'm thinking I'd like to (semi?)retire early to the Reef while it yet lives.
> > >
> > > Graeme
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Graeme, would that be a Long Long Micro?
> > >
> >
>
Oh! ...and Graeme, have you seen this in the Files section of Bolger II?
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IIZpSuNlfA-WpCcxtoXE0vIPHr0gVABpoDkrdqAs2zCxI420TIX7NarfAJ6HU5AP09wyB9sFtY3P2pTekuh521mg0Zv6fGToJCGl/Bolger%20scans/Long%20Micro%2C%20glass%20house.jpg
GregF
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IIZpSuNlfA-WpCcxtoXE0vIPHr0gVABpoDkrdqAs2zCxI420TIX7NarfAJ6HU5AP09wyB9sFtY3P2pTekuh521mg0Zv6fGToJCGl/Bolger%20scans/Long%20Micro%2C%20glass%20house.jpg
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Didn't see Jill Knight's article Graeme, didn't she sail Cooee?
>
> Small is better they say, but what is the self-built cat, I'm wondering?
>
> Since Phil Bolger's death I've been prompted to get his older books and have now got them all, I think. The progression in his thinking, the paring down to what is essential, the liberation from convention to the point of "an open mind" is fantastic to see.
>
> I bet, he'd be in agreement with you on that!
>
> Greg
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@> wrote:
> >
> > That, or a shorter "Monster M";-)
> >
> > Greg, did you see Jill Knight's article "Cruising on a Shoestring"? (Cruising Helmsman, September 2008, page 16) Did you note the comparitive "table of expenses by category"?
> >
> > Transitioning adult kids won't allow me at it full time just yet, but given a 24' or thereabouts Bolger type boat, and then for now I could be a "Spike" kind of guy @ $2400/year (and an hour by jet up the coast away from the landlubber sprockets back home). Adequate for the purpose and far cheaper and capacious than similar sized self-built cat. Good training for skippering a 40+ft steel Bolger perhaps, and even then that may show up Spike's expenses! I'm thinking I'd like to (semi?)retire early to the Reef while it yet lives.
> >
> > Graeme
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > > Graeme, would that be a Long Long Micro?
> >
>
Didn't see Jill Knight's article Graeme, didn't she sail Cooee?
Small is better they say, but what is the self-built cat, I'm wondering?
Since Phil Bolger's death I've been prompted to get his older books and have now got them all, I think. The progression in his thinking, the paring down to what is essential, the liberation from convention to the point of "an open mind" is fantastic to see.
I bet, he'd be in agreement with you on that!
Greg
Small is better they say, but what is the self-built cat, I'm wondering?
Since Phil Bolger's death I've been prompted to get his older books and have now got them all, I think. The progression in his thinking, the paring down to what is essential, the liberation from convention to the point of "an open mind" is fantastic to see.
I bet, he'd be in agreement with you on that!
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
>
> That, or a shorter "Monster M";-)
>
> Greg, did you see Jill Knight's article "Cruising on a Shoestring"? (Cruising Helmsman, September 2008, page 16) Did you note the comparitive "table of expenses by category"?
>
> Transitioning adult kids won't allow me at it full time just yet, but given a 24' or thereabouts Bolger type boat, and then for now I could be a "Spike" kind of guy @ $2400/year (and an hour by jet up the coast away from the landlubber sprockets back home). Adequate for the purpose and far cheaper and capacious than similar sized self-built cat. Good training for skippering a 40+ft steel Bolger perhaps, and even then that may show up Spike's expenses! I'm thinking I'd like to (semi?)retire early to the Reef while it yet lives.
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
>
> > Graeme, would that be a Long Long Micro?
>
That, or a shorter "Monster M";-)
Greg, did you see Jill Knight's article "Cruising on a Shoestring"? (Cruising Helmsman, September 2008, page 16) Did you note the comparitive "table of expenses by category"?
Transitioning adult kids won't allow me at it full time just yet, but given a 24' or thereabouts Bolger type boat, and then for now I could be a "Spike" kind of guy @ $2400/year (and an hour by jet up the coast away from the landlubber sprockets back home). Adequate for the purpose and far cheaper and capacious than similar sized self-built cat. Good training for skippering a 40+ft steel Bolger perhaps, and even then that may show up Spike's expenses! I'm thinking I'd like to (semi?)retire early to the Reef while it yet lives.
Graeme
Greg, did you see Jill Knight's article "Cruising on a Shoestring"? (Cruising Helmsman, September 2008, page 16) Did you note the comparitive "table of expenses by category"?
Transitioning adult kids won't allow me at it full time just yet, but given a 24' or thereabouts Bolger type boat, and then for now I could be a "Spike" kind of guy @ $2400/year (and an hour by jet up the coast away from the landlubber sprockets back home). Adequate for the purpose and far cheaper and capacious than similar sized self-built cat. Good training for skippering a 40+ft steel Bolger perhaps, and even then that may show up Spike's expenses! I'm thinking I'd like to (semi?)retire early to the Reef while it yet lives.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
> Graeme, would that be a Long Long Micro?
I won't say no change just not one I was able to see...
Buck
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: greg@...
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 02:16:47 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: Rudder end-plates on a Micro
Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports pics.Check it out.
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: greg@...
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 02:16:47 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: Rudder end-plates on a Micro
Hi Buck
So, no difference in sailing performance either, then?
Greg
So, no difference in sailing performance either, then?
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, buck crowley <buckcrowley@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi I put end plates on my micro after about ten years without them. Looking over the stern I'd always noticed a cavitation vortex, if thats the proper term, trailing off the heel of the rudder and thought it might be slowing us down. If there was an improvement it was too small for me to notice.Buck Crowley
>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups. com
> From: greg@...
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:18:57 +0000
> Subject: [bolger] Rudder end-plates on a Micro
>
>
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> I'd be very interested to know if anybody has experience of the performance of a Micro before and after end-plates were fitted to its rudder.
>
>
>
> I just fitted end-plates to my Micro's rudder but still haven't got the boat back in the water. Well, it is winter here, but will get it in soon I hope. But I'd really appreciate any comments from anyone on rudder end-plates.
>
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> GregF
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> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.
>http://windowslive. com/Mobile? ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ CS_MB_new_ hotmail_072009
>
Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports pics.Check it out.
Hi Buck
So, no difference in sailing performance either, then?
Greg
So, no difference in sailing performance either, then?
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, buck crowley <buckcrowley@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi I put end plates on my micro after about ten years without them. Looking over the stern I'd always noticed a cavitation vortex, if thats the proper term, trailing off the heel of the rudder and thought it might be slowing us down. If there was an improvement it was too small for me to notice.Buck Crowley
>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From: greg@...
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:18:57 +0000
> Subject: [bolger] Rudder end-plates on a Micro
>
>
>
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> I'd be very interested to know if anybody has experience of the performance of a Micro before and after end-plates were fitted to its rudder.
>
>
>
> I just fitted end-plates to my Micro's rudder but still haven't got the boat back in the water. Well, it is winter here, but will get it in soon I hope. But I'd really appreciate any comments from anyone on rudder end-plates.
>
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> GregF
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> _________________________________________________________________
> NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.
>http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009
>
Thanks Graeme & Bruce
I may be off the mark about the end-plates having any impact on actual sailing performance but I thought that it may be worth trying just in case.
Your Micro, Bruce, has the Navigator cabin, I think, and the Chinese Gaff rig so there are variations there anyway, but at least you haven't noticed any negative impact from the end-plates. I can't imagine anything negative from them, in nay case?
Graeme, would that be a Long Long Micro?
Greg
I may be off the mark about the end-plates having any impact on actual sailing performance but I thought that it may be worth trying just in case.
Your Micro, Bruce, has the Navigator cabin, I think, and the Chinese Gaff rig so there are variations there anyway, but at least you haven't noticed any negative impact from the end-plates. I can't imagine anything negative from them, in nay case?
Graeme, would that be a Long Long Micro?
Greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> I have an end plate on Micro rudder, and it seems to work fine.
>
Hi
I put end plates on my micro after about ten years without them. Looking over the stern I'd always noticed a cavitation vortex, if thats the proper term, trailing off the heel of the rudder and thought it might be slowing us down. If there was an improvement it was too small for me to notice.
Buck Crowley
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: greg@...
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:18:57 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Rudder end-plates on a Micro
NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone.Click here.
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: greg@...
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:18:57 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Rudder end-plates on a Micro
I'd be very interested to know if anybody has experience of the performance of a Micro before and after end-plates were fitted to its rudder.
I just fitted end-plates to my Micro's rudder but still haven't got the boat back in the water. Well, it is winter here, but will get it in soon I hope. But I'd really appreciate any comments from anyone on rudder end-plates.
GregF
I just fitted end-plates to my Micro's rudder but still haven't got the boat back in the water. Well, it is winter here, but will get it in soon I hope. But I'd really appreciate any comments from anyone on rudder end-plates.
GregF
NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone.Click here.
I have an end plate on Micro rudder, and it seems to work fine.
As I recall, someone saw the rudder end plate drawn for the Long Micro, and in reply to their query as to why they weren't shown on the Micro plans PCB said it was an oversight he hadn't noticed until asked, that he meant the Micro to have them.
BTW, any thoughts on enlarging Long Micro? A 4ft plug in the middle, with another bulkhead maybe? Done for extensive coastal cruising. Add some 1500+lbs displacement, plus living room. (Maybe put a LM keel under a Jesse Cooper, or Martha Jane type?)
Graeme
BTW, any thoughts on enlarging Long Micro? A 4ft plug in the middle, with another bulkhead maybe? Done for extensive coastal cruising. Add some 1500+lbs displacement, plus living room. (Maybe put a LM keel under a Jesse Cooper, or Martha Jane type?)
Graeme
Hello Peter of the mind like a steel trap!
Well, the end-plates on the rudder were an addition to the plans by Phil Bolger for the Micro II conversion, and as I have not always found tacking to be so reliable (especially in lighter winds) I thought that it may be worth trying this modification.
The sails on my boat should be well cut as they are from the same sailmaker as those on Paloma Blanca, which seems to sail brilliantly on all points, so I don't think it's the sails that are the problem.
It could just be me, not the boat!
I put this question on a local woodenboatforum and got a reply saying to get them off asap as they'll put too much strain on the rudder. But Bolger has made positive comments about other boats with this mod. such as the Chebacco...I've not seen any comments about the Micro though.
GregF
Well, the end-plates on the rudder were an addition to the plans by Phil Bolger for the Micro II conversion, and as I have not always found tacking to be so reliable (especially in lighter winds) I thought that it may be worth trying this modification.
The sails on my boat should be well cut as they are from the same sailmaker as those on Paloma Blanca, which seems to sail brilliantly on all points, so I don't think it's the sails that are the problem.
It could just be me, not the boat!
I put this question on a local woodenboatforum and got a reply saying to get them off asap as they'll put too much strain on the rudder. But Bolger has made positive comments about other boats with this mod. such as the Chebacco...I've not seen any comments about the Micro though.
GregF
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> The Micro rudder,as is, performs very well.I'm curious about why you've added end-plates to yours? However, adding them probably won't hurt anyway.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan, ex owner-builder of one Micro
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
> >
> > I'd be very interested to know if anybody has experience of the performance of a Micro before and after end-plates were fitted to its rudder.
> >
> > I just fitted end-plates to my Micro's rudder but still haven't got the boat back in the water. Well, it is winter here, but will get it in soon I hope. But I'd really appreciate any comments from anyone on rudder end-plates.
> >
> > GregF
> >
>
Hi Greg,
The Micro rudder,as is, performs very well.I'm curious about why you've added end-plates to yours? However, adding them probably won't hurt anyway.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, ex owner-builder of one Micro
The Micro rudder,as is, performs very well.I'm curious about why you've added end-plates to yours? However, adding them probably won't hurt anyway.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, ex owner-builder of one Micro
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> I'd be very interested to know if anybody has experience of the performance of a Micro before and after end-plates were fitted to its rudder.
>
> I just fitted end-plates to my Micro's rudder but still haven't got the boat back in the water. Well, it is winter here, but will get it in soon I hope. But I'd really appreciate any comments from anyone on rudder end-plates.
>
> GregF
>
I'd be very interested to know if anybody has experience of the performance of a Micro before and after end-plates were fitted to its rudder.
I just fitted end-plates to my Micro's rudder but still haven't got the boat back in the water. Well, it is winter here, but will get it in soon I hope. But I'd really appreciate any comments from anyone on rudder end-plates.
GregF
I just fitted end-plates to my Micro's rudder but still haven't got the boat back in the water. Well, it is winter here, but will get it in soon I hope. But I'd really appreciate any comments from anyone on rudder end-plates.
GregF