Re: Peero
I paddle mostly been in power boats most of my life pulling crab pots where the chesapeake and the intercoastal intersect I am about at mile 3 I don,t cartop just carry the boat down to the water here lately I have been lazy I built a small dolley to tote my canoe with. It is a old battered coleman , I was just building smaller boats with hopes of finding something lighter I am aprox 205-210 pounds most weeks I have built a coupla of peeros for neices and nephews a nieghborhood kid or 2 they do well in them . It don,t do to have a adult beverage or two with you and paying attention really pays off :)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kearney" <rdkearney_99@...> wrote:
>
> Also, once you start messing around with the dimensions, you have
> to ask yourself what your real purpose of use is. Do you want a craft
> that's mainly sailed and occasionally paddled or vice-versa since
> dimensions that enhance one use may detract from the other. To me,
> with the current dimensions, this design looks like it might be a fair
> compromise between paddling and sailing for someone up to about 180
> lbs. At 11'6" it's probably going to be pretty easy to car-top but
> at that length, it sure isn't going to be any speed demon. I agree
> that just raising the sides to gain more freeboard to carry more
> weight will introduce some negatives.
>
> - Rob
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@> wrote:
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kearney" <rdkearney_99@> wrote:
> > >I wonder if would work better for you if it was
> > > stretched out to about 15.5' and widened about 2". I'm still kind of
> > > amazed that a mono-hull with a 2' beam can be successfully sailed but
> > > then I used to feel that way about sailing canoes in general.
> >
> > That could do it as higher sides mean crew weight higher for double paddle use - higher, and... oops over we go! The low sides also allow leaning the upper body out to the side. The Eeek! has higher sides, but also lead ballast stability (and some prefer a single paddle). Bolger said it was unerving though, that, when paddling, you had to lie back prone quickly when you reflexively wanted to lean out as capsize threatened. Isn't bracing meant to save this situation?
> >
> > Graeme
> >
>
Also, once you start messing around with the dimensions, you have
to ask yourself what your real purpose of use is. Do you want a craft
that's mainly sailed and occasionally paddled or vice-versa since
dimensions that enhance one use may detract from the other. To me,
with the current dimensions, this design looks like it might be a fair
compromise between paddling and sailing for someone up to about 180
lbs. At 11'6" it's probably going to be pretty easy to car-top but
at that length, it sure isn't going to be any speed demon. I agree
that just raising the sides to gain more freeboard to carry more
weight will introduce some negatives.
- Rob
to ask yourself what your real purpose of use is. Do you want a craft
that's mainly sailed and occasionally paddled or vice-versa since
dimensions that enhance one use may detract from the other. To me,
with the current dimensions, this design looks like it might be a fair
compromise between paddling and sailing for someone up to about 180
lbs. At 11'6" it's probably going to be pretty easy to car-top but
at that length, it sure isn't going to be any speed demon. I agree
that just raising the sides to gain more freeboard to carry more
weight will introduce some negatives.
- Rob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kearney" <rdkearney_99@> wrote:
> >I wonder if would work better for you if it was
> > stretched out to about 15.5' and widened about 2". I'm still kind of
> > amazed that a mono-hull with a 2' beam can be successfully sailed but
> > then I used to feel that way about sailing canoes in general.
>
> That could do it as higher sides mean crew weight higher for double paddle use - higher, and... oops over we go! The low sides also allow leaning the upper body out to the side. The Eeek! has higher sides, but also lead ballast stability (and some prefer a single paddle). Bolger said it was unerving though, that, when paddling, you had to lie back prone quickly when you reflexively wanted to lean out as capsize threatened. Isn't bracing meant to save this situation?
>
> Graeme
>
Amazing how great minds think alike :) I was thinking 13'6" maybe 3-4 " deeper and 28" wide instead of 24" but then she would be heavier , maybe I just needd to lose some weight :)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kearney" <rdkearney_99@> wrote:
> >I wonder if would work better for you if it was
> > stretched out to about 15.5' and widened about 2". I'm still kind of
> > amazed that a mono-hull with a 2' beam can be successfully sailed but
> > then I used to feel that way about sailing canoes in general.
>
> That could do it as higher sides mean crew weight higher for double paddle use - higher, and... oops over we go! The low sides also allow leaning the upper body out to the side. The Eeek! has higher sides, but also lead ballast stability (and some prefer a single paddle). Bolger said it was unerving though, that, when paddling, you had to lie back prone quickly when you reflexively wanted to lean out as capsize threatened. Isn't bracing meant to save this situation?
>
> Graeme
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kearney" <rdkearney_99@...> wrote:
Graeme
>I wonder if would work better for you if it wasThat could do it as higher sides mean crew weight higher for double paddle use - higher, and... oops over we go! The low sides also allow leaning the upper body out to the side. The Eeek! has higher sides, but also lead ballast stability (and some prefer a single paddle). Bolger said it was unerving though, that, when paddling, you had to lie back prone quickly when you reflexively wanted to lean out as capsize threatened. Isn't bracing meant to save this situation?
> stretched out to about 15.5' and widened about 2". I'm still kind of
> amazed that a mono-hull with a 2' beam can be successfully sailed but
> then I used to feel that way about sailing canoes in general.
Graeme
Yeah, I always thought that this design should have some weight range
on the plans. I know that John Harris, who it was designed for, is
pretty thin. I wonder if would work better for you if it was
stretched out to about 15.5' and widened about 2". I'm still kind of
amazed that a mono-hull with a 2' beam can be successfully sailed but
then I used to feel that way about sailing canoes in general.
It's interesting to me to see how small you can go with a car-topped
boat and still get windward performance without being a complete
contortionist to get the "movable ballast" in the right place. Most
of the kayaks with sails (and not outriggers) look like they're
pretty uncomfortable to sail in anything above a breeze since there's
not a whole lot of room within the hull to move your lower body to
shift weight. At first glance I suspect the Peero might not be much
better but I'm wondering if the "square boat" design might help with
the stability. My tandem canoe is pretty roomy to sail but the bare
hull is about 80 lbs. and with all the sailing bits on it, it's
probably over 110. When the wind is light, I sit in the bottom but I
can easily shift my position to sit at gunwale level or even sit on
the gunwales when the wind picks up.
Thanks for the info.
- Rob
on the plans. I know that John Harris, who it was designed for, is
pretty thin. I wonder if would work better for you if it was
stretched out to about 15.5' and widened about 2". I'm still kind of
amazed that a mono-hull with a 2' beam can be successfully sailed but
then I used to feel that way about sailing canoes in general.
It's interesting to me to see how small you can go with a car-topped
boat and still get windward performance without being a complete
contortionist to get the "movable ballast" in the right place. Most
of the kayaks with sails (and not outriggers) look like they're
pretty uncomfortable to sail in anything above a breeze since there's
not a whole lot of room within the hull to move your lower body to
shift weight. At first glance I suspect the Peero might not be much
better but I'm wondering if the "square boat" design might help with
the stability. My tandem canoe is pretty roomy to sail but the bare
hull is about 80 lbs. and with all the sailing bits on it, it's
probably over 110. When the wind is light, I sit in the bottom but I
can easily shift my position to sit at gunwale level or even sit on
the gunwales when the wind picks up.
Thanks for the info.
- Rob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "apraphett777" <djsaprophet@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> If you are 200 pounds plus it is a bit small if it had a bit more freeboard when I got in it I would probally use mine more :) paddles nice and easy though :) body english steering :)
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kearney" <rdkearney_99@> wrote:
> >
> > Cool! That does indeed look like a Peero. I've only seen a few pictures of one being sailed. I have a tandem canoe set up for sailing but have occasionally considered building one of these for kicks. Looks like a real simple build and I something I could actually get out of my basement window after the build :)
> >
> > - Rob
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think this little boat I saw on Henry Hagg Lake a few weeks ago is a
> > > "Peero":
> > >
> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/nlhjzb
> > >
> > > The lady who owns it now traded a bicycle for it, and knew nothing about
> > > it.
> > >
> > > --
> > > John <jkohnen@>
> > > People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading. <Logan
> > > Pearsall Smith>
> > >
> >
>
If you are 200 pounds plus it is a bit small if it had a bit more freeboard when I got in it I would probally use mine more :) paddles nice and easy though :) body english steering :)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kearney" <rdkearney_99@...> wrote:
>
> Cool! That does indeed look like a Peero. I've only seen a few pictures of one being sailed. I have a tandem canoe set up for sailing but have occasionally considered building one of these for kicks. Looks like a real simple build and I something I could actually get out of my basement window after the build :)
>
> - Rob
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@> wrote:
> >
> > I think this little boat I saw on Henry Hagg Lake a few weeks ago is a
> > "Peero":
> >
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/nlhjzb
> >
> > The lady who owns it now traded a bicycle for it, and knew nothing about
> > it.
> >
> > --
> > John <jkohnen@>
> > People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading. <Logan
> > Pearsall Smith>
> >
>
Cool! That does indeed look like a Peero. I've only seen a few pictures of one being sailed. I have a tandem canoe set up for sailing but have occasionally considered building one of these for kicks. Looks like a real simple build and I something I could actually get out of my basement window after the build :)
- Rob
- Rob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> I think this little boat I saw on Henry Hagg Lake a few weeks ago is a
> "Peero":
>
>http://preview.tinyurl.com/nlhjzb
>
> The lady who owns it now traded a bicycle for it, and knew nothing about
> it.
>
> --
> John <jkohnen@...>
> People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading. <Logan
> Pearsall Smith>
>
I would think that having the enlarged plans printed at Kinko's plus
the time involved (assuming your friend puts some value on his time)
would approach the actual cost of purchasing the plans.
Patrick
the time involved (assuming your friend puts some value on his time)
would approach the actual cost of purchasing the plans.
Patrick
On Aug 4, 2009, at 8:32 PM, Gabriel K. McAtee wrote:
> Thanks for the interesting commentary. I've been having an ongoing
> dialogue with a friend who's building Clam Skiff from BWAOM. I asked
> him to see his plans, wanting to see what a "real" set of plans looked
> like, and he had scanned, enlarged, and printed at Kinkos on large
> paper
> the plans from the book. We've had an ongoing debate about the
> legality
> and morality of doing this, and I figure that rather than guessing I'd
> ask folks who've been there before...
>
> Thanks,
> Gabriel
>
> pvanderwaart wrote:
>>
>>
>>> In the jacket liner of Small Boats " Though this is in part
>>> a dreamers book , it is eminently practical. There are
>>> enough plans and specifications here to build every boat
>>> discussed - all 31 of them.
>>
>> The legalities and practicalities of plans have been discussed a lot
>> over the years, in this forum and others. In particular, Mr. Bolger's
>> later books don't all have the same approach as Small Boats.
>>
>> Quite aside from the legal issues, there is the business model (to
>> use
>> a pretentious term) being pursued by the designer. It is my
>> impression
>> that for a long time, Mr. Bolger took the point of view that an
>> "unlicensed" copy of an amateur-built boat (i.e. one built from plans
>> not paid for) didn't cost him much. The boat probably would not have
>> been built if the the builder had been forced to pay for the plans,
>> and the downside of no fee was partly balanced by the upside of some
>> advertising value. He also sold small boat plans to amateurs at
>> prices
>> below what any MBA would have told him was a proper cost. These
>> efforts did not earn him a ton a money in the short term, but did
>> help
>> build his enormous following and brought him many custom commissions.
>>
>> When he put the full plans in a book, he apparently took the view
>> that
>> if you paid for the book, you could build the boats. Or at least, he
>> never contradicted that view as far as I know.
>>
>> To take a specific example, consider the Teal. I doubt he got a
>> fee or
>> compensation of any sort for a tenth of the Teals ever built, but it
>> was a winning proposition for him.
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Bolger had these plans published in Messing About in Boats and said you could build from those plans and asked if you did to send him $25.
Here is a link to get the plans online that he published and information on building it:
http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/boat/bolger.html#peero
Reed
Here is a link to get the plans online that he published and information on building it:
http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/boat/bolger.html#peero
Reed
I think this little boat I saw on Henry Hagg Lake a few weeks ago is a
"Peero":
http://preview.tinyurl.com/nlhjzb
The lady who owns it now traded a bicycle for it, and knew nothing about
it.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading. <Logan
Pearsall Smith>
"Peero":
http://preview.tinyurl.com/nlhjzb
The lady who owns it now traded a bicycle for it, and knew nothing about
it.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading. <Logan
Pearsall Smith>
Thank you, I see that the frame is only temporary!
Claus
Claus
>
> Dig back in the Bolger group archive to November 24, 2007 for a good
> discussion of Eeeek!
>
> Also, have you seen the "Cheap Pages"?
>
>http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/boat/bolger.html#peero
>
> Or,
>
>http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=all&q=bolgerboats+eeek!&m=tags
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 4:57 AM, aquatronclaus<aquatronboat@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Good morning!
> >
> > I am a boatdealer from denmark, planning to start up a Peero - frame number
> > 2 - will that stay permantly in the boat or is it temporary?
> >
> > Is the plans for the other small sailcanoe EEEK availebla for free download
> > some where?
> >
> > Claus
> > www.baadhuset.dk
>
Payson sells the plans for the Clam skiff (Work Skiff) for $40. The bill
for the enlargements from Kinko's had to be close to that. Oh well at
least he bought the book.
HJ
Gabriel K. McAtee wrote:
for the enlargements from Kinko's had to be close to that. Oh well at
least he bought the book.
HJ
Gabriel K. McAtee wrote:
> Thanks for the interesting commentary. I've been having an ongoing
> dialogue with a friend who's building Clam Skiff from BWAOM. I asked
> him to see his plans, wanting to see what a "real" set of plans looked
> like, and he had scanned, enlarged, and printed at Kinkos on large paper
> the plans from the book. We've had an ongoing debate about the legality
> and morality of doing this, and I figure that rather than guessing I'd
> ask folks who've been there before...
>
> Thanks,
> Gabriel
>
> pvanderwaart wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> In the jacket liner of Small Boats " Though this is in part
>>> a dreamers book , it is eminently practical. There are
>>> enough plans and specifications here to build every boat
>>> discussed - all 31 of them.
>>>
>> The legalities and practicalities of plans have been discussed a lot
>> over the years, in this forum and others. In particular, Mr. Bolger's
>> later books don't all have the same approach as Small Boats.
>>
>> Quite aside from the legal issues, there is the business model (to use
>> a pretentious term) being pursued by the designer. It is my impression
>> that for a long time, Mr. Bolger took the point of view that an
>> "unlicensed" copy of an amateur-built boat (i.e. one built from plans
>> not paid for) didn't cost him much. The boat probably would not have
>> been built if the the builder had been forced to pay for the plans,
>> and the downside of no fee was partly balanced by the upside of some
>> advertising value. He also sold small boat plans to amateurs at prices
>> below what any MBA would have told him was a proper cost. These
>> efforts did not earn him a ton a money in the short term, but did help
>> build his enormous following and brought him many custom commissions.
>>
>> When he put the full plans in a book, he apparently took the view that
>> if you paid for the book, you could build the boats. Or at least, he
>> never contradicted that view as far as I know.
>>
>> To take a specific example, consider the Teal. I doubt he got a fee or
>> compensation of any sort for a tenth of the Teals ever built, but it
>> was a winning proposition for him.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Thanks for the interesting commentary. I've been having an ongoing
dialogue with a friend who's building Clam Skiff from BWAOM. I asked
him to see his plans, wanting to see what a "real" set of plans looked
like, and he had scanned, enlarged, and printed at Kinkos on large paper
the plans from the book. We've had an ongoing debate about the legality
and morality of doing this, and I figure that rather than guessing I'd
ask folks who've been there before...
Thanks,
Gabriel
pvanderwaart wrote:
dialogue with a friend who's building Clam Skiff from BWAOM. I asked
him to see his plans, wanting to see what a "real" set of plans looked
like, and he had scanned, enlarged, and printed at Kinkos on large paper
the plans from the book. We've had an ongoing debate about the legality
and morality of doing this, and I figure that rather than guessing I'd
ask folks who've been there before...
Thanks,
Gabriel
pvanderwaart wrote:
>
>
> > In the jacket liner of Small Boats " Though this is in part
> > a dreamers book , it is eminently practical. There are
> > enough plans and specifications here to build every boat
> > discussed - all 31 of them.
>
> The legalities and practicalities of plans have been discussed a lot
> over the years, in this forum and others. In particular, Mr. Bolger's
> later books don't all have the same approach as Small Boats.
>
> Quite aside from the legal issues, there is the business model (to use
> a pretentious term) being pursued by the designer. It is my impression
> that for a long time, Mr. Bolger took the point of view that an
> "unlicensed" copy of an amateur-built boat (i.e. one built from plans
> not paid for) didn't cost him much. The boat probably would not have
> been built if the the builder had been forced to pay for the plans,
> and the downside of no fee was partly balanced by the upside of some
> advertising value. He also sold small boat plans to amateurs at prices
> below what any MBA would have told him was a proper cost. These
> efforts did not earn him a ton a money in the short term, but did help
> build his enormous following and brought him many custom commissions.
>
> When he put the full plans in a book, he apparently took the view that
> if you paid for the book, you could build the boats. Or at least, he
> never contradicted that view as far as I know.
>
> To take a specific example, consider the Teal. I doubt he got a fee or
> compensation of any sort for a tenth of the Teals ever built, but it
> was a winning proposition for him.
>
>
PCB told people that Eeek! wasn't much of a boat. He promoted the Peero instead. The plans etc. for Peero were published in full in MAIB. That article asked merely that $25 dollars be sent to the designer for any boat built. That's more or less what Craig has published concerning Peero over on his Cheap Pages. That's what PCB also wrote in correspondence a few years ago along with the great coutesy of enclosing photocopies of the MAIB article, and his A4 plan sheet.
Eeek! has been built from the book published plans. They are rather complete.
I'd suggest that in fairness the price of the plans should be marginally higher by now, in line with rising costs etc., and that it would be considerate to forward the small fee to PB&F for any of either design built.
Graeme
Eeek! has been built from the book published plans. They are rather complete.
I'd suggest that in fairness the price of the plans should be marginally higher by now, in line with rising costs etc., and that it would be considerate to forward the small fee to PB&F for any of either design built.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "aquatronclaus" <aquatronboat@...> wrote:
>
> Good morning!
>
> I am a boatdealer from denmark, planning to start up a Peero - frame number 2 - will that stay permantly in the boat or is it temporary?
>
> Is the plans for the other small sailcanoe EEEK availebla for free download some where?
>
> Claus
> www.baadhuset.dk
>
To all Friends out there,
- A Memorial Event will be held over the weekend of September 19th & 20th, two weeks after Labor Day.
- The location is the Gloucester Maritime Heritage Center (www.gloucestermaritimecenter.org), Harbor Loop, Gloucester
- Please let me know you are coming by fax (978) 282-1349 or E-mail me atphilbolger@...
- You are invited to bring your Bolger Boat, afloat, trailered, or on the roof-top. Several launching ramps are scattered about Gloucester; check GOOGLE EARTH. High-tide is about 12:00. The Highschool Ramp would remain low-tide accessible. The Jones Creek Stone Pier Ramp off Atlantic Street should be usable up to 2 hrs post/pre peak. Folks can carry their rooftopable craft over down-town Pavillion Beach at Stacey Boulevard/Western Ave. to the Outer Harbor waters and park the car in normal street spots.
- Lodging is up to you. Camp-cruisers stay afloat. Cape Ann Campsite is located at 80 Atlantic Street (978) 283-8683 on tidal Jones Creek (capeanncampsite.com)
- A Memorial Event will be held over the weekend of September 19th & 20th, two weeks after Labor Day.
- The location is the Gloucester Maritime Heritage Center (www.gloucestermaritimecenter.org), Harbor Loop, Gloucester
- Please let me know you are coming by fax (978) 282-1349 or E-mail me atphilbolger@...
- You are invited to bring your Bolger Boat, afloat, trailered, or on the roof-top. Several launching ramps are scattered about Gloucester; check GOOGLE EARTH. High-tide is about 12:00. The Highschool Ramp would remain low-tide accessible. The Jones Creek Stone Pier Ramp off Atlantic Street should be usable up to 2 hrs post/pre peak. Folks can carry their rooftopable craft over down-town Pavillion Beach at Stacey Boulevard/Western Ave. to the Outer Harbor waters and park the car in normal street spots.
- Lodging is up to you. Camp-cruisers stay afloat. Cape Ann Campsite is located at 80 Atlantic Street (978) 283-8683 on tidal Jones Creek (capeanncampsite.com)
- Food will be
available on site at GMHC.
- More information will be made available.
- Bring your thoughts for an open-mike session, and bring good weather.
- More information will be made available.
- Bring your thoughts for an open-mike session, and bring good weather.
Susanne Altenburger
----- Original Message -----From:Susanne@...Sent:Tuesday, August 04, 2009 7:57 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] From PB&F: Basics on plans-access, cost, and not taking from Bolger&FriendsWhile somewhat fading, fogginess in my head continues to produce typos ..
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
Graeme
> When he put the full plans in a book, he apparently took the view that if you paid for the book, you could build the boats. Or at least, he never contradicted that view as far as I know.Recall the chapter on Otter II. It seems clear that PCB didn't state he wished he could recall the plans for Otter (I) for monetary reasons. He wrote that (numerous?) boats had been built from the plans, and they went well, but that the plans weren't up to the standard for instant boat construction (and seaworthiness?) that he'd since developed over about a decade following. No doubt he'd received much correspondence about Otter! He didn't hint at begrudging any boats built from the plans in the "Small Boats" book, rather he just published the plans and building key for Otter II in full!
>
> To take a specific example, consider the Teal. I doubt he got a fee or compensation of any sort for a tenth of the Teals ever built, but it was a winning proposition for him.
>
Graeme
While somewhat fading, fogginess in my head
continues to produce typos ..
Speaking for the Designers (at least since about
#620...) I must say that indeed every sale of a set of plans does count.
And as Phil put it many times 'were are not selling wall-paper...!' In my
fifteen years living and working with Phil, the model was and is that the steady
flow of plans-sales actually subsidized the larger commissions. Actual
cost of designing #653 TAHITI for instance would have come to eat a good chunk
of thetotal materials-budgetfor Wayne O'Banion, condemning that
project to early fiscal demise; those unhappy with plans-prices may want to
try shopping for design-services elsewhere... Our selling plans/licences (to
build one boat each) of earlier designs allowed O'Banion to get his
plans for a fraction of the actual expense to us. Ergo lots
of modest-cost sales have to add up.
While in due time I hope to get to finish the incomplete design-projects and take on more, our primary assumption has been that plans-sales and thus respective books/catalogues dealing with segments of the Archive are the core business-model.
Phil expressed in various books (and their covers) his concerns that after his demise, there would be no or no easy access to the master-plans. Therefore, depending upon space and editorial restrictions, he would put into books quite a bit of the original plans - sometimes all - to allow folks decades later to use the books to get a sense of the shape, basic details and overall construction-approach of the given project. Upon his death, he pictured the risk of some vaunted archival repository with high walls, secret handshakes and significant fees standing between his life-long policy of accessibility along with lower-cost project-enablement and actual access to the plans-collection. For the duration of my presence hereabouts that calamity will not come to pass. Supported indeed by plans-sales, my project is to (at last) prepare the body of work for broader accessibility yet in a range of formats. As a basic policy, assume that the rights to the work to stay here at PB&F.
Ergo, buying plans from the source (and Dynamite's that is!) should be standard policy. As a number of folks have pointed out just here and over the years, the cost of the plans shrinks into insignificance in comparison to your materials-bill and man-hours. Plans-collectors without intent to build may want to refocus and just collect articles on the designs and then track those actually built and used. And for those who disagree by habit, or 'entitlement' under the peculiar notion of 'free content', or self-centered interpretation of legal provisions on such matters, I would suggest that no boat-project in the shop or afloat needs Bad Karma - if I were superstitious that is. But you never know...
At any rate, taking from Bolger and his family - whether he is alive or after his death - seems counter-intuitive to the spirit of his life and work. It was and is not just a 'life-style' but actually making a living, dealing in a reasonably friendly and productive fashion with overwhelmingly good folks while sharing an interest in boat-design, -building and -usage.
That's that for now. Thanks for your patience reading all this.
If you scan the pages of the book at high resolution, they can be successfully blown up and printed in a much larger format. I've done this successfully. I now believe this is fair use for the book owner. However, I also have concluded that distributing the files, or print outs for free or fee would be unethical and should cause you legal problems. PB&F or Payson should get paid for their work.
There have been reports on this forum of "reprints" of some Bolger books out there that are of decidedly lower quality, and the drawings much less clear, thus offset tables, etc are not readable. By not buying the plans, you give up access to the builder's "Key" document which provides important information about he sequence of construction, and other important tips from the designer. One could easily wreck enough marine plywood to cover the cost of the plans by doing things out of order.
Don
There have been reports on this forum of "reprints" of some Bolger books out there that are of decidedly lower quality, and the drawings much less clear, thus offset tables, etc are not readable. By not buying the plans, you give up access to the builder's "Key" document which provides important information about he sequence of construction, and other important tips from the designer. One could easily wreck enough marine plywood to cover the cost of the plans by doing things out of order.
Don
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Howard <billh39@...> wrote:
>
> Study plans are in 30-Odd Boats. If one's eyes are very good, one
> could probably build from those.
>
> Bill Howard
> Nellysford VA
>
> In the jacket liner of Small Boats " Though this is in partThe legalities and practicalities of plans have been discussed a lot over the years, in this forum and others. In particular, Mr. Bolger's later books don't all have the same approach as Small Boats.
> a dreamers book , it is eminently practical. There are
> enough plans and specifications here to build every boat
> discussed - all 31 of them.
Quite aside from the legal issues, there is the business model (to use a pretentious term) being pursued by the designer. It is my impression that for a long time, Mr. Bolger took the point of view that an "unlicensed" copy of an amateur-built boat (i.e. one built from plans not paid for) didn't cost him much. The boat probably would not have been built if the the builder had been forced to pay for the plans, and the downside of no fee was partly balanced by the upside of some advertising value. He also sold small boat plans to amateurs at prices below what any MBA would have told him was a proper cost. These efforts did not earn him a ton a money in the short term, but did help build his enormous following and brought him many custom commissions.
When he put the full plans in a book, he apparently took the view that if you paid for the book, you could build the boats. Or at least, he never contradicted that view as far as I know.
To take a specific example, consider the Teal. I doubt he got a fee or compensation of any sort for a tenth of the Teals ever built, but it was a winning proposition for him.
In the jacket liner of small boats " Though this is in part a dreamers book , it is eminently practical . There are enough plans and specifications here to build every boat discussed - all 31 of them . Phil Bolger recommends the types of wood to use , provides scantlings , and in many cases , shows details of hard to fabricate items . In quite a few of the designs he suggests building sequences if they are not readily apparrent . " Thank you Mr Bolger for teaching me how to ignore the U.S.goverment telling me I could not do it by myself thank you for showing how to build your boats thank you for showing me how. R.I.P. Mr Bolger D.W.Johnson south end of the Chesapeake Bay southern branch of the Elisabeth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel K. McAtee" <gmcatee@...> wrote:
>
> All,
> The previous thread brought something to mind that I've been
> wondering. I understand that there's much more to an actual set of
> plans than is present in the PB&F books, but there's certainly enough
> detail for most of the boats in those books to build from. What is the
> legality of doing this?
>
> --Gabriel
>
> Bill Howard wrote:
> >
> >
> > Study plans are in 30-Odd Boats. If one's eyes are very good, one
> > could probably build from those.
> >
> >
> > Bill Howard
> > Nellysford VA
> >
> > On Aug 3, 2009, at 7:57 AM, aquatronclaus wrote:
> >
> >> Good morning!
> >>
> >> I am a boatdealer from denmark, planning to start up a Peero - frame
> >> number 2 - will that stay permantly in the boat or is it temporary?
> >>
> >> Is the plans for the other small sailcanoe EEEK availebla for free
> >> download some where?
> >>
> >> Claus
> >> www.baadhuset.dk
> >>
> >
> >
>
AIUI, only the whole design was protected before, not the hull shape alone. So, if I wanted, I could go take a set of lines off, for instance, Rozinante, and design a boat of that shape in fiberglass (or strip, or aluminum, etc), without having to pay the holders of the Herreshoff copyrights a penny. Any designs after the date into force of the act can be registered and then the shape itself gets protection.
-p
-p
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Bruce Hallman<bruce@...>wrote:On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Pierce Nichols<rocketgeek@...> wrote:The 'published work', being paper, is protected by copyright. There
>
>
> The hull shape protections only apply to designs after the DMCA went into
> effect, which was sometime in the late 90s. It does not, therefore, apply to
> the majority of Bolger's published work.
was an analogous 'vessel' clause in the copyright code prior to the
DMCA too. I agree, the fast majority of 'vessel shapes' of all
designers (not just Bolgers), both before and after the DCMA are not
'registered vessels' receiving protection.
I think this is a list of the registered vessels...
http://www.copyright.gov/vessels/list/index.html
------------------------------------
Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Pierce Nichols<rocketgeek@...> wrote:
was an analogous 'vessel' clause in the copyright code prior to the
DMCA too. I agree, the fast majority of 'vessel shapes' of all
designers (not just Bolgers), both before and after the DCMA are not
'registered vessels' receiving protection.
I think this is a list of the registered vessels...
http://www.copyright.gov/vessels/list/index.html
>The 'published work', being paper, is protected by copyright. There
>
> The hull shape protections only apply to designs after the DMCA went into
> effect, which was sometime in the late 90s. It does not, therefore, apply to
> the majority of Bolger's published work.
was an analogous 'vessel' clause in the copyright code prior to the
DMCA too. I agree, the fast majority of 'vessel shapes' of all
designers (not just Bolgers), both before and after the DCMA are not
'registered vessels' receiving protection.
I think this is a list of the registered vessels...
http://www.copyright.gov/vessels/list/index.html
The hull shape protections only apply to designs after the DMCA went into effect, which was sometime in the late 90s. It does not, therefore, apply to the majority of Bolger's published work.
I agree, however, that being able to say that it's a genuine Bolger and being able to cite the plans # etc is well worth the low prices that PB&F charge for plans.
-p
I agree, however, that being able to say that it's a genuine Bolger and being able to cite the plans # etc is well worth the low prices that PB&F charge for plans.
-p
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Bruce Hallman<bruce@...>wrote:On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Gabriel K. McAtee<gmcatee@...> wrote:It is a complex question legally and less so ethically. In the US
>
>
> All,
> The previous thread brought something to mind that I've been
> wondering. I understand that there's much more to an actual set of
> plans than is present in the PB&F books, but there's certainly enough
> detail for most of the boats in those books to build from. What is the
> legality of doing this?
>
> --Gabriel
copyright law applies to the paper which is the book and the
blueprints. Ethically, no question, you should pay the piper.
The cost of plans is a tiny fraction of the cost of building a boat,
and being able to say "it is a Bolger design" raises the resale value
far more that the plan cost.
As to the shape of the boat vessel, in the USA the 3D shape is covered
by the "Vessel Hull Design Protection Act" which is title V of the
Digital Millennium Copyright Act (Google it...) applies to the shape
of the vessel. In short the legal protection of the vessel shape is
much less than the protection of the printed paper blueprint.
------------------------------------
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Dig back in the Bolger group archive to November 24, 2007 for a good
discussion of Eeeek!
Also, have you seen the "Cheap Pages"?
http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/boat/bolger.html#peero
Or,
http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=all&q=bolgerboats+eeek!&m=tags
discussion of Eeeek!
Also, have you seen the "Cheap Pages"?
http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/boat/bolger.html#peero
Or,
http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=all&q=bolgerboats+eeek!&m=tags
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 4:57 AM, aquatronclaus<aquatronboat@...> wrote:
>
>
> Good morning!
>
> I am a boatdealer from denmark, planning to start up a Peero - frame number
> 2 - will that stay permantly in the boat or is it temporary?
>
> Is the plans for the other small sailcanoe EEEK availebla for free download
> some where?
>
> Claus
> www.baadhuset.dk
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Gabriel K. McAtee<gmcatee@...> wrote:
copyright law applies to the paper which is the book and the
blueprints. Ethically, no question, you should pay the piper.
The cost of plans is a tiny fraction of the cost of building a boat,
and being able to say "it is a Bolger design" raises the resale value
far more that the plan cost.
As to the shape of the boat vessel, in the USA the 3D shape is covered
by the "Vessel Hull Design Protection Act" which is title V of the
Digital Millennium Copyright Act (Google it...) applies to the shape
of the vessel. In short the legal protection of the vessel shape is
much less than the protection of the printed paper blueprint.
>It is a complex question legally and less so ethically. In the US
>
> All,
> The previous thread brought something to mind that I've been
> wondering. I understand that there's much more to an actual set of
> plans than is present in the PB&F books, but there's certainly enough
> detail for most of the boats in those books to build from. What is the
> legality of doing this?
>
> --Gabriel
copyright law applies to the paper which is the book and the
blueprints. Ethically, no question, you should pay the piper.
The cost of plans is a tiny fraction of the cost of building a boat,
and being able to say "it is a Bolger design" raises the resale value
far more that the plan cost.
As to the shape of the boat vessel, in the USA the 3D shape is covered
by the "Vessel Hull Design Protection Act" which is title V of the
Digital Millennium Copyright Act (Google it...) applies to the shape
of the vessel. In short the legal protection of the vessel shape is
much less than the protection of the printed paper blueprint.
If you build a boat from a picture or from a book you own there's nothing
illegal about that. And the term "illegal" is harsh because we are talking
about civil stuff. Someone can take you to court for just about anything.
Where it becomes wrong is when someone buys a set of plans and then begins
to sell copies of them.......or in some cases....when they build multiple
boats from a single set of plans or sell multiple boats from a single set of
plans. Robb
illegal about that. And the term "illegal" is harsh because we are talking
about civil stuff. Someone can take you to court for just about anything.
Where it becomes wrong is when someone buys a set of plans and then begins
to sell copies of them.......or in some cases....when they build multiple
boats from a single set of plans or sell multiple boats from a single set of
plans. Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabriel K. McAtee" <gmcatee@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 4:37 PM
Subject: legality of building from study plans, Was: [bolger] Peero
> All,
> The previous thread brought something to mind that I've been
> wondering. I understand that there's much more to an actual set of
> plans than is present in the PB&F books, but there's certainly enough
> detail for most of the boats in those books to build from. What is the
> legality of doing this?
>
> --Gabriel
>
> Bill Howard wrote:
>>
>>
>> Study plans are in 30-Odd Boats. If one's eyes are very good, one
>> could probably build from those.
>>
>>
>> Bill Howard
>> Nellysford VA
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2009, at 7:57 AM, aquatronclaus wrote:
>>
>>> Good morning!
>>>
>>> I am a boatdealer from denmark, planning to start up a Peero - frame
>>> number 2 - will that stay permantly in the boat or is it temporary?
>>>
>>> Is the plans for the other small sailcanoe EEEK availebla for free
>>> download some where?
>>>
>>> Claus
>>> www.baadhuset.dk
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
All,
The previous thread brought something to mind that I've been
wondering. I understand that there's much more to an actual set of
plans than is present in the PB&F books, but there's certainly enough
detail for most of the boats in those books to build from. What is the
legality of doing this?
--Gabriel
Bill Howard wrote:
The previous thread brought something to mind that I've been
wondering. I understand that there's much more to an actual set of
plans than is present in the PB&F books, but there's certainly enough
detail for most of the boats in those books to build from. What is the
legality of doing this?
--Gabriel
Bill Howard wrote:
>
>
> Study plans are in 30-Odd Boats. If one's eyes are very good, one
> could probably build from those.
>
>
> Bill Howard
> Nellysford VA
>
> On Aug 3, 2009, at 7:57 AM, aquatronclaus wrote:
>
>> Good morning!
>>
>> I am a boatdealer from denmark, planning to start up a Peero - frame
>> number 2 - will that stay permantly in the boat or is it temporary?
>>
>> Is the plans for the other small sailcanoe EEEK availebla for free
>> download some where?
>>
>> Claus
>> www.baadhuset.dk
>>
>
>
Study plans are in 30-Odd Boats. If one's eyes are very good, one could probably build from those.
Bill Howard
Nellysford VA
On Aug 3, 2009, at 7:57 AM, aquatronclaus wrote:
Good morning!
I am a boatdealer from denmark, planning to start up a Peero - frame number 2 - will that stay permantly in the boat or is it temporary?
Is the plans for the other small sailcanoe EEEK availebla for free download some where?
Claus
www.baadhuset. dk
Claus,
You should contact PB&F about the purchase of plans for EEEK!
I'm not aware of PB&F placing plans in the public domain.
You should contact PB&F about the purchase of plans for EEEK!
I'm not aware of PB&F placing plans in the public domain.
Good morning!
I am a boatdealer from denmark, planning to start up a Peero - frame number 2 - will that stay permantly in the boat or is it temporary?
Is the plans for the other small sailcanoe EEEK availebla for free download some where?
Claus
www.baadhuset.dk
I am a boatdealer from denmark, planning to start up a Peero - frame number 2 - will that stay permantly in the boat or is it temporary?
Is the plans for the other small sailcanoe EEEK availebla for free download some where?
Claus
www.baadhuset.dk