Re: Windsprint & boat camping modifications? was > The Elusive "Dugong"
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...> wrote:
PCB tackled the problem differently years before in Small Boats, and settled then on three distinctly different boats (including one for power). I guess for a simply built solution to the "rowed well and sailed OK" question, as prioritised, then Surf might be "it". Note that the Surf topsides are cut down to facilitate solo rowing (and looks) as was done later for June Bug, and several larger designs showed Surf tenders stored on deck.
I wonder how much better Windsprint (Surf too?) may row if the suggestion of Jack F McKie, "In addition I would add a one by eight cross section center keel set flat on the center of the bottom and eliminate the "skids" shown in the plan...", were used to also cut down on the bane of rowers, that is, wetted surface area? Similar "center keels" appear on some later PB&F designs. Jack seems to indicate there is a rowing thwart in the Windsprint plans he would include next time...http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/articles/windsprint/index.htm
Graeme
>rowed well and sailed OK... turns out to sail well and row OK.I recall, in SBJ, in response to a letter from a reader suggesting/requesting a sailing rig for their Gloucester Gull, that PCB said were he ever to design such a boat it would be very much like Surf. Surf has a finer entry, and is about 6 to 8 inches narrower on the waterline than Windsprint (and maybe 12 inches wider than GG).
PCB tackled the problem differently years before in Small Boats, and settled then on three distinctly different boats (including one for power). I guess for a simply built solution to the "rowed well and sailed OK" question, as prioritised, then Surf might be "it". Note that the Surf topsides are cut down to facilitate solo rowing (and looks) as was done later for June Bug, and several larger designs showed Surf tenders stored on deck.
I wonder how much better Windsprint (Surf too?) may row if the suggestion of Jack F McKie, "In addition I would add a one by eight cross section center keel set flat on the center of the bottom and eliminate the "skids" shown in the plan...", were used to also cut down on the bane of rowers, that is, wetted surface area? Similar "center keels" appear on some later PB&F designs. Jack seems to indicate there is a rowing thwart in the Windsprint plans he would include next time...http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/articles/windsprint/index.htm
Graeme
Hi Patrick,
It's important to remember that I row on relatively small waters in CO, and when the wind pipes up, it's time to get off the lake since the water is very cold all year and I have no desire to swim. Choppy waves of 2-3 feet in gusty 20-30 mph winds are about the worst I've ever had to deal with, and not for long periods. Motorboat wakes are the most common problem, which this boat handles without any fuss. I have no experience rowing in ocean swells or constant breezes, but there's always a couple of these boats in the Blackburn Challenge.
I think it would be no trouble to get two plus camping gear, the dog, four gallons of water and 20-40 pounds of firewood in this boat. The sole space will be cramped since the dog takes a lot of it (he has a pre-Copernican view of the universe), but there would be capacity to spare weight-wise. The difficulty would be keeping heavy weights out of the ends.
A pleasant scenario I often think about is two of these boats, with some dry stowage built in, each with a single rower, +/-dog, and gear, on a week-long camping/fishing/hunting trip along the shores of the larger reservoirs here in CO, Lake Powell, or some of the water trails further afield - San Juan Islands, Hiawatha, Maine, etc.
Jon
> The long light dory does sound like fun -- how much weight do youI have rowed this boat alone several times with just some light fishing gear and never felt uncomfortable or at risk. The bottom will slap a little when this light, and the bow or stern will blow off in any kind of breeze, since the waterline is shorter when the load is light. Adding my 55 pound dog and a 22 pound weight to trim the boat makes a noticeable difference. Adding another person improves stability and ride quality even further. In no case would I attempt to stand up in this boat unless it was beached.
> need
> in it to feel fairly stable? (I've heard that a dory feels unstable
> until it sits down on its lines.)
It's important to remember that I row on relatively small waters in CO, and when the wind pipes up, it's time to get off the lake since the water is very cold all year and I have no desire to swim. Choppy waves of 2-3 feet in gusty 20-30 mph winds are about the worst I've ever had to deal with, and not for long periods. Motorboat wakes are the most common problem, which this boat handles without any fuss. I have no experience rowing in ocean swells or constant breezes, but there's always a couple of these boats in the Blackburn Challenge.
I think it would be no trouble to get two plus camping gear, the dog, four gallons of water and 20-40 pounds of firewood in this boat. The sole space will be cramped since the dog takes a lot of it (he has a pre-Copernican view of the universe), but there would be capacity to spare weight-wise. The difficulty would be keeping heavy weights out of the ends.
A pleasant scenario I often think about is two of these boats, with some dry stowage built in, each with a single rower, +/-dog, and gear, on a week-long camping/fishing/hunting trip along the shores of the larger reservoirs here in CO, Lake Powell, or some of the water trails further afield - San Juan Islands, Hiawatha, Maine, etc.
Jon
I asked Dynamite Payson for a boat that rowed well and sailed OK. He
suggested Windsprint, which turns out to sail well and row OK.
As long as you don't have the mast up or the sail aboard, a Windsprint
rows reasonably well, though it has no skeg so you have to pay close
attention to keep it going in a straight line. And it weighs next to
nothing, so it doesn't have much momentum to keep it moving between
strokes. I use 9-foot Shaw and Tenney spooned oars. 8-foot oars would be
fine.
There is no good place to stow the long yard and boom, (exacerbated in
my case by the full battens which cause boom and yard to be offset by
about 3 feet when the sail is neatly rolled around them) so the sail is
in the way when rowing with it aboard. In no wind you can leave the sail
set or brail it against the mast and then the boat rows fine.
If there is any wind, the sailing rig is problematic. I tried to row
against the wind on Pamlico Sound once -- it felt like it was blowing 25
so it was probably between 15 and 20 knots. I gave up -- I could not
make headway. I went back into Silver Lake Harbor, removed the mast and
sail, carried them over to the boat ramp parking lot, and rowed without
the windage back outside to the boat ramp. It was still very difficult
to row against that wind.
Of course, if the wind is blowing, one usually prefers to sail rather
than row.
The long light dory does sound like fun -- how much weight do you need
in it to feel fairly stable? (I've heard that a dory feels unstable
until it sits down on its lines.)
Patrick
adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
suggested Windsprint, which turns out to sail well and row OK.
As long as you don't have the mast up or the sail aboard, a Windsprint
rows reasonably well, though it has no skeg so you have to pay close
attention to keep it going in a straight line. And it weighs next to
nothing, so it doesn't have much momentum to keep it moving between
strokes. I use 9-foot Shaw and Tenney spooned oars. 8-foot oars would be
fine.
There is no good place to stow the long yard and boom, (exacerbated in
my case by the full battens which cause boom and yard to be offset by
about 3 feet when the sail is neatly rolled around them) so the sail is
in the way when rowing with it aboard. In no wind you can leave the sail
set or brail it against the mast and then the boat rows fine.
If there is any wind, the sailing rig is problematic. I tried to row
against the wind on Pamlico Sound once -- it felt like it was blowing 25
so it was probably between 15 and 20 knots. I gave up -- I could not
make headway. I went back into Silver Lake Harbor, removed the mast and
sail, carried them over to the boat ramp parking lot, and rowed without
the windage back outside to the boat ramp. It was still very difficult
to row against that wind.
Of course, if the wind is blowing, one usually prefers to sail rather
than row.
The long light dory does sound like fun -- how much weight do you need
in it to feel fairly stable? (I've heard that a dory feels unstable
until it sits down on its lines.)
Patrick
adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:
> Hi Roger,
>
>
>> Thanks so much Patrick for your enthusiasm and suggestion of the Windsprint. I've been looking at that design, but unfortunately its not setup for rowing and that is essential for where I'll use it.
>>
>
> ...snip...
>
> I don't see any reason why you can't row a Windsprint. I haven't looked at Patrick's website in a while, but I know I've seen photos of these boats set up for rowing. I built a 20' version that goes in the water this coming weekend (finally!), and it's going to be rowed away from the ramp.
>
> Another option for you might be a modified Gypsy. The standard Gypsy can be given a side deck to stiffen the hull enough to eliminate the midships frame, clearing out the sole for camping aboard if you also use a leeboard. The displacement of this design might be a bit light for extended camping trips, especially if you add a deck. I built a 25% stretched version that I launched this year, and it's a joy to row. The extra length adds enough displacement to take my dog, fishing tackle, and camping gear with extra capacity for firewood and four gallons of water. I didn't put a sailing rig on mine, but it certainly could have one. I'm going after Kokanee for a few days with it in a couple of weeks.
>
> Bolger's Ginni design is probably about as good as it gets for rowing, sailing, and camping aboard. Plus it can be built with leeboards and kick-up rudder. Construction is about as simple as can be. Bernie Wolfard once told me that it was greatly overcanvassed for his area (Seattle area like you), so I'd think about changing the rig to something smaller than the Solent lug cat-yawl in the plans. Jim Michalak had one and would probably be happy to correspond with you about it.
>
> The Sweet Pea design is another possibility, although the slipping keel for sailing seems a little complicated. It's shown in Bolger's book "Boats With an Open Mind" and the full plans are included in Dynamite Payson's latest book. Susanne has some personal experience with this boat and could tell you more.
>
> Payson's book includes plans for Cartopper, which was designed with sleeping aboard in mind, and is a row/sail boat with a small forward centerboard. I've always thought that a slightly larger version, say 15'-6", would make a great camp/beach cruiser. It would be pretty easy to scale this design up slightly. This hull shape, like Gypsy and Sweet Pea, works better when rowing in a chop compared to flat-bottomed hulls like Ginni.
>
> If you just want to row and not bother with a sailing rig, the 19'-6" Long Light Dory, also in Payson's latest book, is worth looking at. I built one and it's a fine rowing machine. After a few seasons of use, I can see several ways to incorporate dry stowage, a sliding seat, and room for the dog without altering the beauty of the hull. This design could hold a lot of camping gear if set up for it. Be prepared to get a lot of attention if you build one of these.
>
> There's also a "Perfect Skiff 2008" (or is it 2007?) that would do the job well, but it's intended to break down into two smaller boats and is complex for its size because of that.
>
> The 18' "Camper" design was intended for a crew of two to row and sail, but it's a much more extensive project than something like Windsprint, since it has a Birdwatcher superstructure. I wonder about the windage when rowing, but this would be a very capable boat in many weather conditions.
>
> Of course Michalak, Welsford, and others have several candidates as well. Good luck choosing!
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
Hi Roger,
I don't see any reason why you can't row a Windsprint. I haven't looked at Patrick's website in a while, but I know I've seen photos of these boats set up for rowing. I built a 20' version that goes in the water this coming weekend (finally!), and it's going to be rowed away from the ramp.
Another option for you might be a modified Gypsy. The standard Gypsy can be given a side deck to stiffen the hull enough to eliminate the midships frame, clearing out the sole for camping aboard if you also use a leeboard. The displacement of this design might be a bit light for extended camping trips, especially if you add a deck. I built a 25% stretched version that I launched this year, and it's a joy to row. The extra length adds enough displacement to take my dog, fishing tackle, and camping gear with extra capacity for firewood and four gallons of water. I didn't put a sailing rig on mine, but it certainly could have one. I'm going after Kokanee for a few days with it in a couple of weeks.
Bolger's Ginni design is probably about as good as it gets for rowing, sailing, and camping aboard. Plus it can be built with leeboards and kick-up rudder. Construction is about as simple as can be. Bernie Wolfard once told me that it was greatly overcanvassed for his area (Seattle area like you), so I'd think about changing the rig to something smaller than the Solent lug cat-yawl in the plans. Jim Michalak had one and would probably be happy to correspond with you about it.
The Sweet Pea design is another possibility, although the slipping keel for sailing seems a little complicated. It's shown in Bolger's book "Boats With an Open Mind" and the full plans are included in Dynamite Payson's latest book. Susanne has some personal experience with this boat and could tell you more.
Payson's book includes plans for Cartopper, which was designed with sleeping aboard in mind, and is a row/sail boat with a small forward centerboard. I've always thought that a slightly larger version, say 15'-6", would make a great camp/beach cruiser. It would be pretty easy to scale this design up slightly. This hull shape, like Gypsy and Sweet Pea, works better when rowing in a chop compared to flat-bottomed hulls like Ginni.
If you just want to row and not bother with a sailing rig, the 19'-6" Long Light Dory, also in Payson's latest book, is worth looking at. I built one and it's a fine rowing machine. After a few seasons of use, I can see several ways to incorporate dry stowage, a sliding seat, and room for the dog without altering the beauty of the hull. This design could hold a lot of camping gear if set up for it. Be prepared to get a lot of attention if you build one of these.
There's also a "Perfect Skiff 2008" (or is it 2007?) that would do the job well, but it's intended to break down into two smaller boats and is complex for its size because of that.
The 18' "Camper" design was intended for a crew of two to row and sail, but it's a much more extensive project than something like Windsprint, since it has a Birdwatcher superstructure. I wonder about the windage when rowing, but this would be a very capable boat in many weather conditions.
Of course Michalak, Welsford, and others have several candidates as well. Good luck choosing!
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> Thanks so much Patrick for your enthusiasm and suggestion of the Windsprint. I've been looking at that design, but unfortunately its not setup for rowing and that is essential for where I'll use it....snip...
I don't see any reason why you can't row a Windsprint. I haven't looked at Patrick's website in a while, but I know I've seen photos of these boats set up for rowing. I built a 20' version that goes in the water this coming weekend (finally!), and it's going to be rowed away from the ramp.
Another option for you might be a modified Gypsy. The standard Gypsy can be given a side deck to stiffen the hull enough to eliminate the midships frame, clearing out the sole for camping aboard if you also use a leeboard. The displacement of this design might be a bit light for extended camping trips, especially if you add a deck. I built a 25% stretched version that I launched this year, and it's a joy to row. The extra length adds enough displacement to take my dog, fishing tackle, and camping gear with extra capacity for firewood and four gallons of water. I didn't put a sailing rig on mine, but it certainly could have one. I'm going after Kokanee for a few days with it in a couple of weeks.
Bolger's Ginni design is probably about as good as it gets for rowing, sailing, and camping aboard. Plus it can be built with leeboards and kick-up rudder. Construction is about as simple as can be. Bernie Wolfard once told me that it was greatly overcanvassed for his area (Seattle area like you), so I'd think about changing the rig to something smaller than the Solent lug cat-yawl in the plans. Jim Michalak had one and would probably be happy to correspond with you about it.
The Sweet Pea design is another possibility, although the slipping keel for sailing seems a little complicated. It's shown in Bolger's book "Boats With an Open Mind" and the full plans are included in Dynamite Payson's latest book. Susanne has some personal experience with this boat and could tell you more.
Payson's book includes plans for Cartopper, which was designed with sleeping aboard in mind, and is a row/sail boat with a small forward centerboard. I've always thought that a slightly larger version, say 15'-6", would make a great camp/beach cruiser. It would be pretty easy to scale this design up slightly. This hull shape, like Gypsy and Sweet Pea, works better when rowing in a chop compared to flat-bottomed hulls like Ginni.
If you just want to row and not bother with a sailing rig, the 19'-6" Long Light Dory, also in Payson's latest book, is worth looking at. I built one and it's a fine rowing machine. After a few seasons of use, I can see several ways to incorporate dry stowage, a sliding seat, and room for the dog without altering the beauty of the hull. This design could hold a lot of camping gear if set up for it. Be prepared to get a lot of attention if you build one of these.
There's also a "Perfect Skiff 2008" (or is it 2007?) that would do the job well, but it's intended to break down into two smaller boats and is complex for its size because of that.
The 18' "Camper" design was intended for a crew of two to row and sail, but it's a much more extensive project than something like Windsprint, since it has a Birdwatcher superstructure. I wonder about the windage when rowing, but this would be a very capable boat in many weather conditions.
Of course Michalak, Welsford, and others have several candidates as well. Good luck choosing!
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Thanks so much Patrick for your enthusiasm and
suggestion of the Windsprint. I've been looking at that design, but
unfortunately its not setup for rowing and that is essential for where I'll use
it.
I've been looking at stretching Bolger's Pirate
Boat to adult length since its designed for rowing, sailing, and camping in
the boat. It also has the kickup leeboards and rudder which will be essential
for where I'll use the boat (Puget Sound). I'm considering a length between the
Surf/Crab Boat and the Zephyr. These 3 boats and the Windsprint all share a lot
of similarities.
That's real interesting, that idea about
simply putting a one man tent in a wider boat like the Windsprint. I think for
Puget Sound, or anyplace subject to unpredictable prolonged drizzles
and cold rain, and unpredictable severe wind and choppy waves,
something that completely covers the open area in the boat will be needed to
avoid having to bail in the middle of the night, and to provide more usable
space if you have to stay put and wait out the weather.
I grew up in a Boy Scout troop that was more like a
special forces boot camp than what most people think of as Boy Scouts, and
camped in some pretty severe locations. As you found out, the top of the dune
will magnify any wind. When calm, that would be the best place to catch a
breeze, and you found out what would happen in a good wind, it all depends on
the weather if it will be a good or bad idea to pitch at tent there. You are
lucky that you and the tent didn't become airborne, which is a real possibility
in extremely exposed locations like that.
It was so great to see the happy smiling kids in
your boat pictures on your web site. Too many sailing fans get carried away and
remind people of Captain Bligh instead of making it fun for the people with
them, and particularly for their families - obviously its real fun to go
sailing with you :)
Sincerely,
Roger
----- Original Message -----From:Patrick CrockettSent:Friday, August 07, 2009 9:02 AMSubject:Re: [bolger] boat camping modifications? was > The Elusive "Dugong"Ohh -- oohh, oohh, Mr Kotter! Mr. Kotter -- oohh, oohh --Patrick