Re: Bahamas

Yes, he disliked the Wish II looks (as dictated by function?), but I think they grew on him, or that is he soon found remarkably subtle ways to overcome that issue rather than the extremes shown at the time, at least in profile. Witness straight-sheered Eeek!, and ESC, only 10 designs later, and MJ, and AS29/39.

He protested at the need for the 18 sheets of 0.5" ply in Wish II #399 -(perhaps the economics of building a cheap looking boat from expensive materials. How about marine seconds, cosmetic rejects then?). He found the deck crew too exposed... and perhaps there were unmentioned issues of motor placement.

However, 151 designs later there is the similarly sized AS19, and with similar aesthetic issues, crew exposure, and the same pile of materials for almost the same displacement. AS19 has the motor placement resolved though, and any crew more than two can find a place on deck without upsetting boat trim as the intended four would do for Wish. Being lower to the water AS19 gets a little more sail area with 17% less ballast --- yet PCB does invite the builder to play with this last, the stiffness.

AS19, found "technically good", can only sleep two though, and Wish could be trim adjusted very easily when extended cruising that number with plenty more storage space. As for deck crew exposure, well there's solutions just like many adopt over and above the designed seatback railings of AS29.

Yep, it's largely about decoration (or visual habituation). Shipshape seems good for any with a Wish II go.

Graeme

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
>
> > WISH II. I'm prepared to argue that what PCB mostly found
> > wrong with her, he used later anyway!
>
> IMHO, any functional problems were due to the boat being a bit too small for the capability that he tried to pack in. He didn't care for the looks, but the overall shape is about the same as the AS-29 which looks pretty shipshape on the water, so I think it's pretty much a matter of decoration.
>

Good stuff Roger. On rogue waves: did you see this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3917539.stm?

Graeme

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Padvorac" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> Lately I've been checking the older Bolger books out of the library, and writing down notes on key points. Here are comments I copied out of "Different boats, 1980":
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Romp 30'0" x 8'4" x 1'6" Cruising Cat-Yawl
> The prime function of her shallow draft is to open up berths to her that other boats, both power and sail, don't compete for. It's also been argued, with good reason I think, that shallow boats are the most seaworthy, because they skitter away from the blow of a cresting sea and frustrate its power. Certainly they pass over deadly perils that snare deeper boats. I surmise that boats of this particular model move with little disturbance of the water because there is no way a shallow body can generate a deep wave.
>
>
>
> There's no such thing as an uncapsizable boat; if you doubt it, watch a model in the surf at a beach. But there are self-righting boats, and one of the prerequisites of self-righting is that the boat must be high-sided relative to her deck breadth.
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
> One can argue that the scale of boat models to waves at the beach is out of proportion. However the scale is probably similar to a 20-30 foot yacht being hit by a rogue wave. I wouldn't want to bet that I'd never be hit by a rogue wave, so if I was going on the open sea, I wouldn't leave until the boat was ready for a rogue wave. I might make an exception for this when sailing on short trips in good weather in the good weather season, still likely I wouldn't leave until the boat was ready for at least a small rogue wave.
>
>
>
> For being prepared for a rogue wave, besides the interior spaces being water tight, its essential that the decking, cabin walls, windows, and hatches are strong enough that they don't cave in or get ripped off due to water pressure if the boat gets buried and tumbled in a wave. I think from my perspective, that if a boat is ready for a rogue wave, then there is a comfortable safety margin on being ready for the storms that it is more likely to experience than rogue waves.
>
>
>
> Many people cross the ocean several times and never get hit by a rogue wave. Still each year a few boats disappear, and there is increasing objective evidence for the science of rogue waves. So it boils down to personal choices on the levels of fallback preparations you feel its worthwhile to do and the levels of risk you find acceptable.
>
>
>
> There could be conditions were a deep keel boat is faster that a shoal draft boat because it allows you to carry more sail, but since I'm not interested in speed (other than enough to make headway into currents) and am more interested in exploring the shoreline than spending time on the open sea, I've pretty much stopped thinking about keel boats. I've also mostly stopped thinking about wide boats so the boat is more likely to be self-righting while having a low enough freeboard to be convenient for messing around with the water.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Roger
>

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 11:02 AM, daschultz2000<daschultz8275@...>wrote:
A steel shoe could protect the bottom from coral, and likely replace the water

ballast

A steel shoe is a great idea. It's cheap, simple, and puts the ballast at the lowest point. I had always hoped Phil would design a version of Micro and LM with a narrow box keel and a steel shoe on the bottom.

Fred Schumacher

I think the MJ as modified is up to the task. It would be faster to mod the MJ he has than build from scratch. I'd just be sure the 'glass' selected for the windows in the cabin is adequate and the new sponsons well secured.

A steel shoe could protect the bottom from coral, and likely replace the water ballast, permiting the use of the tanks for additional storage. YOu would need to be willing to tow the weight of the steel.

Don

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, an MJ is probably not suitable. The original design does not have an adequate range of heel before the cockpit begins to flood. Even if the boat in question has the the add-on sponsons and other changes meant to ameliorate the problem, I don't think it would be a good idea.
>

> WISH II. I'm prepared to argue that what PCB mostly found
> wrong with her, he used later anyway!

IMHO, any functional problems were due to the boat being a bit too small for the capability that he tried to pack in. He didn't care for the looks, but the overall shape is about the same as the AS-29 which looks pretty shipshape on the water, so I think it's pretty much a matter of decoration.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:

> I'm away from my books, so I can't look it up. What's the name of the 20' sharpie originally designed for four, but redesigned with a normal cockpit for a man who went down the Mississippi with his daughter? The first version is pretty much unfloodable with hatch closed and would do > for the Bahamas trip.

WISH II. I'm prepared to argue that what PCB mostly found wrong with her, he used later anyway!

Graeme

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks" <loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:

>
>
> > Jesse Cooper

What do you think of the mast being set pivoting in a (fairly tall)tabernacle?

Graeme

Lately I've been checking the older Bolger books out of the library, and writing down notes on key points. Here are comments I copied out of "Different boats, 1980":

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Romp 300 x 84 x 16 Cruising Cat-Yawl

The prime function of her shallow draft is to open up berths to her that other boats, both power and sail, dont compete for. Its also been argued, with good reason I think, that shallow boats are the most seaworthy, because they skitter away from the blow of a cresting sea and frustrate its power. Certainly they pass over deadly perils that snare deeper boats. I surmise that boats of this particular model move with little disturbance of the water because there is no way a shallow body can generate a deep wave.

Theres no such thing as an uncapsizable boat; if you doubt it, watch a model in the surf at a beach. But there are self-righting boats, and one of the prerequisites of self-righting is that the boat must be high-sided relative to her deck breadth.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

One can argue that the scale of boat models to waves at the beach is out of proportion. However the scale is probably similar to a 20-30 foot yacht being hit by a rogue wave. I wouldn't want to bet that I'd never be hit by a rogue wave, so if I was going on the open sea, I wouldn't leave until the boat was ready for a rogue wave. I might make an exception for this when sailing on short trips in good weather in the good weather season, still likely I wouldn't leave until the boat was ready for at least a small rogue wave.

For being prepared for a rogue wave, besides the interior spaces being water tight, its essential that the decking, cabin walls, windows, and hatches are strong enough that they don't cave in or get ripped off due to water pressure if the boat gets buried and tumbled in a wave. I think from my perspective, that if a boat is ready for a rogue wave, then there is a comfortable safety margin on being ready for the storms that it is more likely to experience than rogue waves.

Many people cross the ocean several times and never get hit by a rogue wave. Still each year a few boats disappear, and there is increasing objective evidence for the science of rogue waves. So it boils down to personal choices on the levels of fallback preparations you feel its worthwhile to do and the levels of risk you find acceptable.

There could be conditions were a deep keel boat is faster that a shoal draft boat because it allows you to carry more sail, but since I'm not interested in speed (other than enough to make headway into currents) and am more interested in exploring the shoreline than spending time on the open sea, I've pretty much stopped thinking about keel boats. I've also mostly stopped thinking about wide boats so the boat is more likely to be self-righting while having a low enough freeboard to be convenient for messing around with the water.

Sincerely,

Roger

I think the important thing on this thread or others like it is that we do not miss what the initial question is... In this case being about the Martha Jane as that is what the man has...

Way back when I was getting ready to do my first LA to Hawaii trip I had no shortage of people suggesting that any number of boats (apparently any boat would have been better for my trip it seemed than my CAL 20) but as I had a boat and did not want to spend a year or two finding and making money to buy another (which would also not be perfect) the boat I had was the one that made sense. Face it there is always a better boat for whatever you want to do but if you wait for the perfect boat you'll never ever go anywhere.

So getting back to the Martha Jane question I'd say yes... Certainly but just maybe you'd consider some mods to make it more of a cruising boat.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

You could go in a Brick......this really is the case of "if you have to ask"
your really not ready to go in any boat........Robb

----- Original Message -----
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 1:02 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bahamas

> Anyone care to offer an opinion on the suitability of the Jochems Schooner
> for the Bahama crossing?
>
> By the way, "island in the stream" refers to Bimini, not the Bahamas, as I
> realized after my prior post. The comment on the current still stands,
> though.
>
>
>
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>
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Anyone care to offer an opinion on the suitability of the Jochems Schooner for the Bahama crossing?

By the way, "island in the stream" refers to Bimini, not the Bahamas, as I realized after my prior post. The comment on the current still stands, though.

> I'll beg t disagree on the unsuitability of the dagger board on the Jessie Cooper...

I bow to the voice of experience. It should go without saying that sailing/cruising skill and expectations have a lot to do with how satisfied a cruiser is with his boat. In addition, I've also thought there was a measure of over-optimism in the "look mom, I'm sailing in just 18" of water" school of thought. In only takes a decent rock or minor mud bank to bring things to a halt.

I'm away from my books, so I can't look it up. What's the name of the 20' sharpie originally designed for four, but redesigned with a normal cockpit for a man who went down the Mississippi with his daughter? The first version is pretty much unfloodable with hatch closed and would do for the Bahamas trip.

Just one other comment, the slower the boat, the less certainty that the presumed good weather forecast is going to hold for the trip. Think about the current too; they're not called the Islands in the Stream for nothing.

> Jesse Cooper is bigger and much more comfortable to live in, but the daggerboard is not the best for actually sailing in shallow water.

I'll beg t disagree on the unsuitability of the dagger board on the Jessie Cooper... We sailed two seasons in the Frisian islands retracing the route of "Th Riddle of The Sands" where the water is so skinny it makes the Bahamas seem...well...deep. Throw into the mix that we also sailed across the Bay of Biscay twice in our Jessie Cooper and all the way to the Baltic and back to Paris. So we do have just a little experience with the design.

We never had problems with the dagger board and if I were to have Loose Moose 2 designed again i'd have told Phil to leave out the centerboard (well off centerboard) and make sure to keep the dagger board on LM2... Hindsight being 20/20!

We did once hit a sunken Renault R5 on the canals at speed and the dagger board did a wonderful imitation of a Polaris missile but no damage to the board or boat (Phil sure knew how to design a great boat) but we sure did a number on the Renault! All in all it makes a lot of sense.

By the way the next generation sharpies being designed today by folks like Chris Morejohn are very much into the dagger board and spending sometime on Hogfish Maximus last year his dagger board system works finest kind.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

> I am interested in the groups opinion on what Bolger designs
> would be suitable for making the crossing to reach the Bahamas
> in fair weather. I would like the shallow draft and
> trailerability of Martha Jane.

Unfortunately, an MJ is probably not suitable. The original design does not have an adequate range of heel before the cockpit begins to flood. Even if the boat in question has the the add-on sponsons and other changes meant to ameliorate the problem, I don't think it would be a good idea.

As for what other Bolger designs might be considered, there are many. We could start with the HMS Rose and work down, but I'll assume that you don't want to go above the 3 lengths of plywood size, approx 22 1/2 feet. For my money, I want a keel boat offshore.

Seabird '86 would be a contender. I'd go with the sloop rig, myself.

I'd also consider Long Micro, but the cockpit has to be made self-bailing and/or made to disappear with a hatch in the manner of the standard Micro. LM has a reputation as having a biggish rig, so look to your reefing gear. She probably sails in even shallower water than MJ.

Centennial II is likely seaworthy enough, but not good in any other way. The interior is too small, and the deep dagger keels have to remain at full depth.

Jesse Cooper is bigger and much more comfortable to live in, but the daggerboard is not the best for actually sailing in shallow water.

I like Seabird the best, but I've always had a soft spot for that design. I'll be interested to see with others suggest. For comparison, I know that a Nomad 20 (Brewer design) made the trip.

Peter

You might want to take a look at the Micro cruising website (http://www.microcruising.com/)as it is an awesome resource for folks who want to go and go small...

By comparison to one of Matt Layden's micro cruisers a Martha Jane is downright palatial!

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

I purchased a Martha Jane 18 months ago. Since i purchased her I have taken her on the Texas 200, Florida 120, OBX130, York river, Ohio river, and two trips to Cayo Costa, not to mention several local midwest trips. I have been thinking about renting a sea pearl from Star Fish in the Bahamas for several years but have never gotten it done mainly do to the cost and logistics. After the OBX 130 there was a lot of discussion about a trip to Cuba or the Bahamas. I am interested in the groups opinion on what Bolger designs would be suitable for making the crossing to reach the Bahamas in fair weather. I would like the shallow draft and trailerability of Martha Jane.