Re: [bolger] Re: schooner

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 6:56 AM,
adventures_in_astrophotography<jon@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>> Since you have done a number of hulls, would you say it might be helpful
>> to do a starter project? Something like Elegant Punt or 12-Foot Kayak that
>> do not require a lot of material or a rig?
>
> Starting with a smaller project is always a good idea, especially for
> glassing experience. But I think most people could put a Light Schooner hull
> together, especially with a pattern (the existing boat) on hand, along with
> a copy of one of Payson's books.
>
> Jon

Good advice. Can I add that time spent building scale models of boats
will pay back double by improving your understanding of the shapes and
sequences of the parts, and by reducing chances of costly big
mistakes. I have learned much more building paper and computer models
of boats, than I have learned by building full size boats.

And, true. Working with epoxy and fiberglass is a learned skill. In
my experience, the key element of this is mastering the smoothing
process. It is a laudable goal to apply epoxy smooth, but that rarely
happens for me. I can reduce them, but I always get many drips runs
and goobers.

I have learned to use an angle grinder, a belt sander, and a random
orbital...with coarse grit, medium and find grits sandpapers, so that
it goes acceptably fast. Especially important is the angle grinder.
This is followed by using 'spot glazing' filler and primer which is
smooth sanded again, and repeat until satisfied, to achieve that
glossy finish boat look.

Hi Chris,

> Since you have done a number of hulls, would you say it might be helpful to do a starter project? Something like Elegant Punt or 12-Foot Kayak that do not require a lot of material or a rig?

Starting with a smaller project is always a good idea, especially for glassing experience. But I think most people could put a Light Schooner hull together, especially with a pattern (the existing boat) on hand, along with a copy of one of Payson's books.

Jon

Jon,

Since you have done a number of hulls, would you say it might be helpful to do a starter project? Something like Elegant Punt or 12-Foot Kayak that do not require a lot of material or a rig?

V/R
Chris

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography" <jon@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> > Thank you. This is very helpful. I tried to assess what I need to do yesterday. I am not sure I have the skill, time or tools to do this project. Overwhelming.
>
> When I built my Light (cat) Schooner, the faster part of the project was the hull. This has been true of all three sailboats I've built, and to a slightly lesser degree the two powerboats I've built. Rowboats are simple by comparison. Yes, it was a project to put it together, but the fitting and finishing of the interior components, appendages, spars, and rigging took substantially more time than just building, glassing, and painting the hull. If you have good spars, sails, and rigging as you say, and if the daggerboard, rudder, tiller, floorboards, and other parts are useable, it's possible you'd be better off building a new hull. You'd know it was all sound and have years of not worrying about this or that section you didn't rebuild. You also have an existing pattern to work from for any parts not detailed in the plans.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>

Hi John,

> Thank you. This is very helpful. I tried to assess what I need to do yesterday. I am not sure I have the skill, time or tools to do this project. Overwhelming.

When I built my Light (cat) Schooner, the faster part of the project was the hull. This has been true of all three sailboats I've built, and to a slightly lesser degree the two powerboats I've built. Rowboats are simple by comparison. Yes, it was a project to put it together, but the fitting and finishing of the interior components, appendages, spars, and rigging took substantially more time than just building, glassing, and painting the hull. If you have good spars, sails, and rigging as you say, and if the daggerboard, rudder, tiller, floorboards, and other parts are useable, it's possible you'd be better off building a new hull. You'd know it was all sound and have years of not worrying about this or that section you didn't rebuild. You also have an existing pattern to work from for any parts not detailed in the plans.

Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm

Thank you.  This is very helpful.  I tried to assess what I need to do yesterday.  I am not sure I have the skill, time or tools to do this project.  Overwhelming.
 
John
 

---

To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: dudleyspack1@...
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 03:12:26 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: schooner

 

Hi John, ditto's on having the best wife in the world.

I had the same problem keeping the water out of the bottom of my LS while covered for the winter.

I think I caught the rot in the bottom but had to replace my decks. I put a drain in the back about a foot forward of the stern and tilt it up. I built up the decks about 3' on the centerline to give it a rounded crown to help the water run off.

I built a 40' boat tunnel / tent, to park it under and a regular boat cover so I could stray water before it freezes up and sits all winter.

There are some pictures on the bolger photo site:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/2118497338/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&dir=asc

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pbschooner61" <dun-wurkin@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> I have a 20 year old Bolger 27' schooner on a trailer that my wife recently gave me as a surprise.
>
> Overall the boat is in good shape, but it needs a lot of work. The sails, masts, booms and gaffs are in great shape. Most of the cleats are wood and in poor condition and I have been replacing them with galvanized cleats. The deck is in rough shape in places and I have been replacing it in sections with 1/4 inch sheets of plastic wood to end the decay problem.
>
> I don't know what to do about the bottom of the boat. There is water in the wood between the fiberglass.
>
> The boat has no flotation foam and, if built to Phil's plans as it appears to be, weighs about 700 pounds. So, I bought 50 swim noodles at the Dollar Store to use under the side decks and around the center mast step as flotation. Doing the math based on the bouyancy of a single swim noodle resulted in 50 noodles to keep the boat floating if capsized.
>
> I would appreciate any advice. This project may be too much for me.
>
> John
> North Carolina
>

I will be able to give you a full report on the effectiveness of Ethylene glycol in about 10 years. I treated the entire insides of my Work Skiff with it.

I know it does not kill mildew spores, use Wood Bleach (Oxalic Acid, the stuff in Rhubarb) on it.

I hope to have this skiff finished by the Bolger Memorial weekend, but no promises. I still need a trailer and need to get it registered and painted.

David Jost

35 miles south of Raleigh along HWY 401
 

---

To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: ben_2_go@...
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 23:42:54 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: schooner

 

It's probably LS.  From Build the new Instant Boats, LS scales as 23.5 stem to stern and 26.6 from end of sprit to stern.


V/R
Chris

p.s. apologies for previous reply to the wrong thread

Bruce Hallman wrote:

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:22 AM, pbschooner61<dun-wurkin@...>wrote:

Hello All,

I have a 20 year old Bolger 27' schooner on a trailer that my wife recently
gave me as a surprise.

That kind of looks like a Bolger Light Schooner, except I thought the
Light Schooner was 24 feet long.  Is this a stretched Light Schooner,
or is it another Bolger design?

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:22 AM, pbschooner61<dun-wurkin@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hello All,
>
> I have a 20 year old Bolger 27' schooner on a trailer that my wife recently
> gave me as a surprise.

That kind of looks like a Bolger Light Schooner, except I thought the
Light Schooner was 24 feet long. Is this a stretched Light Schooner,
or is it another Bolger design?

But that is parenthetical, the point is, fiberglass inside can be a killer.--Mason

Hi Mason,
Your article in WB about Birdwatcher is what inspired me to start a BW2.
With the interior coated with epoxy then a layer of foam, then plywood/epoxy/glass, I have wondered the same thing about it's longevity. It's nice to think that all that coating and structure would seal and preserve the hull, but other real-life examples make me wonder how long it will last. Time and use will tell.
Thanks,
David

>

Google is a marvelous tool.  Here's a link:

Glycol

Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:

It may have been the dory forum, but I recall seeing a discussion about some research done in GB that shows ethylene glycol to be toxic to rot.

V/R
Chris

pvanderwaart wrote:

Is this an appropriate place to discuss the subject of 
what is required to kill the rot spores?

I've never read anything that led me to believe it was possible to kill the rot. It may be possible to dry the wood to the point where the rot won't continue to grow.

It may have been the dory forum, but I recall seeing a discussion about some research done in GB that shows ethylene glycol to be toxic to rot.

V/R
Chris

pvanderwaart wrote:

Is this an appropriate place to discuss the subject of 
what is required to kill the rot spores?

I've never read anything that led me to believe it was possible to kill the rot. It may be possible to dry the wood to the point where the rot won't continue to grow.

> Is this an appropriate place to discuss the subject of
> what is required to kill the rot spores?

I've never read anything that led me to believe it was possible to kill the rot. It may be possible to dry the wood to the point where the rot won't continue to grow.

Is this an appropriate place to discuss the subject of what is required to kill the rot spores? IIRC there was some talk a few years ago about ethylene glycol.

This is an important question because the rot will continue to grow even if "dried" and saturated with epoxy. My friends had a clinker-built power skiff that died a slow and ignominious death by rib rot despite application of about 20 gal. of git-rot.

V/R
Chris

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> You say" water in the wood beteween the fiberglass." This is what worries me. The original Whalewatcher, very poorly built, had fiberglass matt inside, in the standing room, as well as outside, and the inside glass was, I think, the death of her. Once water got between inner and outer sheathings, the rot heated up and followed the grain of the plies, all the way to the chines, the sides, the sides of the ballast tanks, the inner girders. There was no end to the cutting-out and patching I'd have had to do, and the hull as poorly built as it was was not worth it. Thank God for Tim Anderson's excellent hull, which made the first launch of a Whalewatcher last April possible. And by the way isn't it nice that Phil and Susanne were there? But that is parenthetical, the point is, fiberglass inside can be a killer.--Mason
>

Where is Lillington?I am 50 minutes south of Asheville in North Spartanburg,SC.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pbschooner61" <dun-wurkin@...> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I posted a picture of the schooner in the photos section in a file called "John's schooner".
>
> If anyone lives near Lillington, North Carolina and wants to lend a hand you will be welcomed aboard.
>
> John
>

You could also use builders foam and cut it to fit.I use PL premium to glue it all together and glue inside the hull.I rough up the hull with 180 grit and the PL usually sticks to the foam.Using foam allows for fitting into areas where the round noodles may have a hard time fitting.I'm not sure what the equation is right off.I have it bookmarked on another pc.Hope this helps.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pbschooner61" <dun-wurkin@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> I have a 20 year old Bolger 27' schooner on a trailer that my wife recently gave me as a surprise.
>
> Overall the boat is in good shape, but it needs a lot of work. The sails, masts, booms and gaffs are in great shape. Most of the cleats are wood and in poor condition and I have been replacing them with galvanized cleats. The deck is in rough shape in places and I have been replacing it in sections with 1/4 inch sheets of plastic wood to end the decay problem.
>
> I don't know what to do about the bottom of the boat. There is water in the wood between the fiberglass.
>
> The boat has no flotation foam and, if built to Phil's plans as it appears to be, weighs about 700 pounds. So, I bought 50 swim noodles at the Dollar Store to use under the side decks and around the center mast step as flotation. Doing the math based on the bouyancy of a single swim noodle resulted in 50 noodles to keep the boat floating if capsized.
>
> I would appreciate any advice. This project may be too much for me.
>
> John
> North Carolina
>

Patrick;
 
Great idea on the cover.
 
I think I'll move it into the backyard tomorrow, take it off the trailer and prep for the work.
 
Lillington is 35 miles south of Raleigh along HWY 401.
 
John
 

---

To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: pcrockett@...
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:47:58 -0400
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: schooner

 

John:

Eh -- I'm in Chapel Hill. Where's Lillington from here? Don't know how
much help I can give, but I'd sure like to see it.

BTW, I have found that covering a boat with a tarp here in NC is an
invitation to more rot. Better to get one of those inexpensive plastic
tarp and steel pole tent kits -- something that will give you about 3 or
4 feet extra roof on all sides if you have room for it. That has made a
big difference for me.

Patrick

pbschooner61 wrote:

> All,
>
> I posted a picture of the schooner in the photos section in a file called "John's schooner".
>
> If anyone lives near Lillington, North Carolina and wants to lend a hand you will be welcomed aboard.
>
> John
>

All,

I posted a picture of the schooner in the photos section in a file called "John's schooner".

If anyone lives near Lillington, North Carolina and wants to lend a hand you will be welcomed aboard.

John

Thanks Brian;

Cutting the bottom panels out as you describe is an excellent idea. I could then retain the sides and use spacers as suggested as I put on a new bottom.

This is a better idea than me turning the boat over and using it as a mold.

In the case of this schooner with the midship mast step, I assume I would leave that structure in place and lay the new bottom directly over the old bottom.

I will give it a try and let everyone know how it turns out.

John

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bawrytr" <bawrytr@...> wrote:
>
> You have a good wife John,
>
> Sounds like your real problem is the bottom. What you need to do is to grind off or cut off or anyway remove the fiberglass where there is water underneath. Then you see how the wood is. Maybe it is ok and you can let it dry out and sand and fill with an epoxy filler and then re-glass the bottom. If it is really rotten then you are looking at some minor surgery.
>
> Jim Michalac, who designs similar boats had this problem in one of his, and what he did was take a circular saw set just to cut the thickness of the bottom and cut out the bottom a couple of inches in from the sides. Then he sanded down to bare wood the rest, glued and screwed some spacers under the frames to make up the space between the bottom of the frames and the new bottom and epoxied a new plywood bottom in place, painted, and off he went. It would probably be a good idea to add a new layer of fiberglass on the bottom too. It might sound like a lot, but it isn't brain surgery.
>
> Cheers, Brian
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pbschooner61" <dun-wurkin@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I have a 20 year old Bolger 27' schooner on a trailer that my wife recently gave me as a surprise.
> >
> > Overall the boat is in good shape, but it needs a lot of work. The sails, masts, booms and gaffs are in great shape. Most of the cleats are wood and in poor condition and I have been replacing them with galvanized cleats. The deck is in rough shape in places and I have been replacing it in sections with 1/4 inch sheets of plastic wood to end the decay problem.
> >
> > I don't know what to do about the bottom of the boat. There is water in the wood between the fiberglass.
> >
> > The boat has no flotation foam and, if built to Phil's plans as it appears to be, weighs about 700 pounds. So, I bought 50 swim noodles at the Dollar Store to use under the side decks and around the center mast step as flotation. Doing the math based on the bouyancy of a single swim noodle resulted in 50 noodles to keep the boat floating if capsized.
> >
> > I would appreciate any advice. This project may be too much for me.
> >
> > John
> > North Carolina
> >
>

Thanks David.

I was afraid it might take building a new hull. I keep a tarp over the boat on the trailer, but during heavy rains water still gets inside. I get the water out as soon as possible, but the water still seeps and drips out from the bottom of the hull over a period of days, meaning the hull plywood is saturated.

I have played with the idea of turning the boat over and using it as a mold to build a new hull around, then turning it back upright and putting in the bulkheads, framing and decking.

What do you think about using plastic-wood? I have had boats for over 30 years, but only recently have I thought about using some of the new "plastic wood" to eliminate the need to fiberglass over marine plywood.

John

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like a big project.
>
> Step 1 - dry it out and do a full stem to transom inspection of the entire hull. Make a list of what is delaminated, rotted, or in need of replacement.
>
> Then determine whether to save it, or start from scratch. With the rigging intact, it may be simpler to build a new hull pending the damage report.
>
> IMHO.
>
> David Jost
>

You have a good wife John,

Sounds like your real problem is the bottom. What you need to do is to grind off or cut off or anyway remove the fiberglass where there is water underneath. Then you see how the wood is. Maybe it is ok and you can let it dry out and sand and fill with an epoxy filler and then re-glass the bottom. If it is really rotten then you are looking at some minor surgery.

Jim Michalac, who designs similar boats had this problem in one of his, and what he did was take a circular saw set just to cut the thickness of the bottom and cut out the bottom a couple of inches in from the sides. Then he sanded down to bare wood the rest, glued and screwed some spacers under the frames to make up the space between the bottom of the frames and the new bottom and epoxied a new plywood bottom in place, painted, and off he went. It would probably be a good idea to add a new layer of fiberglass on the bottom too. It might sound like a lot, but it isn't brain surgery.

Cheers, Brian

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pbschooner61" <dun-wurkin@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> I have a 20 year old Bolger 27' schooner on a trailer that my wife recently gave me as a surprise.
>
> Overall the boat is in good shape, but it needs a lot of work. The sails, masts, booms and gaffs are in great shape. Most of the cleats are wood and in poor condition and I have been replacing them with galvanized cleats. The deck is in rough shape in places and I have been replacing it in sections with 1/4 inch sheets of plastic wood to end the decay problem.
>
> I don't know what to do about the bottom of the boat. There is water in the wood between the fiberglass.
>
> The boat has no flotation foam and, if built to Phil's plans as it appears to be, weighs about 700 pounds. So, I bought 50 swim noodles at the Dollar Store to use under the side decks and around the center mast step as flotation. Doing the math based on the bouyancy of a single swim noodle resulted in 50 noodles to keep the boat floating if capsized.
>
> I would appreciate any advice. This project may be too much for me.
>
> John
> North Carolina
>

Sounds like a big project.

Step 1 - dry it out and do a full stem to transom inspection of the entire hull. Make a list of what is delaminated, rotted, or in need of replacement.

Then determine whether to save it, or start from scratch. With the rigging intact, it may be simpler to build a new hull pending the damage report.

IMHO.

David Jost

Hello All,

I have a 20 year old Bolger 27' schooner on a trailer that my wife recently gave me as a surprise.

Overall the boat is in good shape, but it needs a lot of work. The sails, masts, booms and gaffs are in great shape. Most of the cleats are wood and in poor condition and I have been replacing them with galvanized cleats. The deck is in rough shape in places and I have been replacing it in sections with 1/4 inch sheets of plastic wood to end the decay problem.

I don't know what to do about the bottom of the boat. There is water in the wood between the fiberglass.

The boat has no flotation foam and, if built to Phil's plans as it appears to be, weighs about 700 pounds. So, I bought 50 swim noodles at the Dollar Store to use under the side decks and around the center mast step as flotation. Doing the math based on the bouyancy of a single swim noodle resulted in 50 noodles to keep the boat floating if capsized.

I would appreciate any advice. This project may be too much for me.

John
North Carolina