Re: Grieving vs. Plans Sales

I think it's about time for me to open my big mouth . . .

Enough time has gone by, the Memorial has been held, 'everyone' knows the
story, and 'everyone' has had their say. THAT IS IT for the 'Doom & Gloom' .
. . ESPECIALLY for those who can't see beyond themselves {as in '. . acting
like a Prick . .' }.

FROM NOW ON think & TALK about the POSITIVE aspects of the situation.
CELEBRATE the memories, experiences, & stories. MOST IMPORTANTLY consider
the fact that there is not only a published & fairly readily available body
of work - but a LIVING 'Partner' / 'Historian' / 'Curator' of his work.
While it may take some time to gather & coordinate the documents a methods
of distribution . . . the 'knowledge' IS there and WILL be available.

I mention this because of a situation that happed a couple of years ago.
Deciding on a particular small boat project, I remembered a set of plans
from a specific designer and his 'Company'. The Catalog I had was several
years old. When I tried to contact them I found that they had closed and the
Plans were being offered by another well-known supplier. It turned out that
the 'Associates' and 'Company' plans were sold . . NOT the boats HE had
designed. Even though this person was alive . . he 'took' the Plans with
him, and had NO INTENTION of offering them for sale - individually or
otherwise !! PERIOD !!

Keep this in mind next time you feel like bitching that something isn't
happening to 'your personal schedule'.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

Lon,

Really bad form on you part. Amazing.

Tom Andrews

Nels,
I was afraid you might come in the night and add Pug to your collection of Micros and LM's. Better safe than sorry.

Actually a better career opportunity appeared near Houston, and my wife once lived down here. She preferred Texas heat to NW Ohio's worst season; "cloudy." So, I packed a UHaul with my man-crap, tossed the barn cat into the UHaul, and hitched the Long Micro up. With just a little luck I should be able to enjoy year round sailing here. I left my snow shovel and rock salt collection in Ohio. I just moved Pug into some rented shop space. She has earned some improvements (depth sounder, a new steering compass), and could use a fresh coat of bottom paint. Then I'll launch her.

The sailing in Galveston Bay, and along the Gulf Coast looks good, so there are new places to explore. And Duckworks is relatively close by. No complaints from me, although I do miss the Great Lakes.

Bill, now in Texas
Long Micro Pugnacious

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Arrr, By Neptune's goblets me cabin boy - what be you doin' down in tat
> god-forsaken land called Texas? Ye'll ne'er get yer buried booty that
> way! Did ye lose the milk from yer coconut?
>
> Git yer ragged arse back to were da barley oil is always cold and the
> bangsters and wenches are always up fer a bandicoot or bessy lorch.
>
> Nels (Still suffering the effects of "talk like a pirate day")
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "trimaran" <kingw@> wrote:
> >
> > Nels,
> > Good to see you back and posting. Pull up a seat and stay a while,
> > won't you? Missed not having you around here.
> >
> > Bill, (no longer in Ohio) in Texas.
> > Long Micro Pugnacious
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" arvent@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Having lost a spouse ten years ago I can identify, but I did seek
> grief
> > > counseling for awhile after and it really helped me cope.
> > >
> > > She is still "with me" to this day and often reminds me to make a
> better
> > > choice when I look at doing something stupid. She did it then and
> still
> > > does to this day:-)
> > >
> > > The memories are all happy though, and she lives on in that regard.
> > >
> > > Sincere condolences to you Susanne and be reminded you still have
> loved
> > > ones around willing to assist, so don't refuse them.
> > >
> > > Nels
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Let me put my other hat on, for a moment, as a research social
> > > > psychologist. The evidence shows the grieving is a much longer
> process
> > > > for people in the midst of it, than for people watching on the
> > > sidelines.
> > > >
> > > > For example, one study (Lehman, Wortman & Williams, JPSP) showed
> that,
> > > 5
> > > > years after a loss (child or spouse), most people had sad thoughts
> > > EVERY
> > > > DAY. These people's grief was no indication of personal weakness
> or
> > > > individual differences--regardless of personal strength,
> regardless of
> > > > income or age, a loss like Susanne's does not repair itself in
> weeks
> > > or
> > > > months, or even years.
> > > >
> > > > Life goes on, people adapt, and most normal people will be able to
> > > > return to life, be productive, experience joy. But it's never the
> same
> > > > again.
> > > >
> > > > So before we judge anyone for taking months or more to recover,
> let's
> > > > remember that it's natural, normal, and essential to spend a long
> time
> > > > recovering.
> > > >
> > > > -Chris Crandall
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Arrr, By Neptune's goblets me cabin boy - what be you doin' down in tat
god-forsaken land called Texas? Ye'll ne'er get yer buried booty that
way! Did ye lose the milk from yer coconut?

Git yer ragged arse back to were da barley oil is always cold and the
bangsters and wenches are always up fer a bandicoot or bessy lorch.

Nels (Still suffering the effects of "talk like a pirate day")

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "trimaran" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Nels,
> Good to see you back and posting. Pull up a seat and stay a while,
> won't you? Missed not having you around here.
>
> Bill, (no longer in Ohio) in Texas.
> Long Micro Pugnacious
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" arvent@ wrote:
> >
> > Having lost a spouse ten years ago I can identify, but I did seek
grief
> > counseling for awhile after and it really helped me cope.
> >
> > She is still "with me" to this day and often reminds me to make a
better
> > choice when I look at doing something stupid. She did it then and
still
> > does to this day:-)
> >
> > The memories are all happy though, and she lives on in that regard.
> >
> > Sincere condolences to you Susanne and be reminded you still have
loved
> > ones around willing to assist, so don't refuse them.
> >
> > Nels
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Let me put my other hat on, for a moment, as a research social
> > > psychologist. The evidence shows the grieving is a much longer
process
> > > for people in the midst of it, than for people watching on the
> > sidelines.
> > >
> > > For example, one study (Lehman, Wortman & Williams, JPSP) showed
that,
> > 5
> > > years after a loss (child or spouse), most people had sad thoughts
> > EVERY
> > > DAY. These people's grief was no indication of personal weakness
or
> > > individual differences--regardless of personal strength,
regardless of
> > > income or age, a loss like Susanne's does not repair itself in
weeks
> > or
> > > months, or even years.
> > >
> > > Life goes on, people adapt, and most normal people will be able to
> > > return to life, be productive, experience joy. But it's never the
same
> > > again.
> > >
> > > So before we judge anyone for taking months or more to recover,
let's
> > > remember that it's natural, normal, and essential to spend a long
time
> > > recovering.
> > >
> > > -Chris Crandall
> > >
> >
>

Chris,

Thank you for adding this to the discussion. I've been widowed ~4.5 years, but that was after a 4 year illness. The years of illness gave me a running start at grieving loss, as there were many losses to grieve along the way, starting with the loss of "plans". Some one has said "Want to make God laugh? Tell Him your plans."

I could see my ultimate loss coming from a long distance. When it occurred I was able to function through it. Afterward, at age 55, I used the adventure of seeking a new spouse as part of my recovery therapy.

S.A. did not have this advantage or at least had a much lesser clue as to the "when" of Phillip's passing. From what little I think I know of her situation, she is doing fine. I like that she seems to be defining her plans and boundaries. My personal optimism sees her future with Phil's legacy of designs, enhanced by her own creative input as bright.

Don

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
>
> Let me put my other hat on, for a moment, as a research social
> psychologist....

Nels,
Good to see you back and posting. Pull up a seat and stay a while,
won't you? Missed not having you around here.

Bill, (no longer in Ohio) in Texas.
Long Micro Pugnacious

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Having lost a spouse ten years ago I can identify, but I did seek grief
> counseling for awhile after and it really helped me cope.
>
> She is still "with me" to this day and often reminds me to make a better
> choice when I look at doing something stupid. She did it then and still
> does to this day:-)
>
> The memories are all happy though, and she lives on in that regard.
>
> Sincere condolences to you Susanne and be reminded you still have loved
> ones around willing to assist, so don't refuse them.
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@> wrote:
> >
> > Let me put my other hat on, for a moment, as a research social
> > psychologist. The evidence shows the grieving is a much longer process
> > for people in the midst of it, than for people watching on the
> sidelines.
> >
> > For example, one study (Lehman, Wortman & Williams, JPSP) showed that,
> 5
> > years after a loss (child or spouse), most people had sad thoughts
> EVERY
> > DAY. These people's grief was no indication of personal weakness or
> > individual differences--regardless of personal strength, regardless of
> > income or age, a loss like Susanne's does not repair itself in weeks
> or
> > months, or even years.
> >
> > Life goes on, people adapt, and most normal people will be able to
> > return to life, be productive, experience joy. But it's never the same
> > again.
> >
> > So before we judge anyone for taking months or more to recover, let's
> > remember that it's natural, normal, and essential to spend a long time
> > recovering.
> >
> > -Chris Crandall
> >
>

Having lost a spouse ten years ago I can identify, but I did seek grief
counseling for awhile after and it really helped me cope.

She is still "with me" to this day and often reminds me to make a better
choice when I look at doing something stupid. She did it then and still
does to this day:-)

The memories are all happy though, and she lives on in that regard.

Sincere condolences to you Susanne and be reminded you still have loved
ones around willing to assist, so don't refuse them.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
>
> Let me put my other hat on, for a moment, as a research social
> psychologist. The evidence shows the grieving is a much longer process
> for people in the midst of it, than for people watching on the
sidelines.
>
> For example, one study (Lehman, Wortman & Williams, JPSP) showed that,
5
> years after a loss (child or spouse), most people had sad thoughts
EVERY
> DAY. These people's grief was no indication of personal weakness or
> individual differences--regardless of personal strength, regardless of
> income or age, a loss like Susanne's does not repair itself in weeks
or
> months, or even years.
>
> Life goes on, people adapt, and most normal people will be able to
> return to life, be productive, experience joy. But it's never the same
> again.
>
> So before we judge anyone for taking months or more to recover, let's
> remember that it's natural, normal, and essential to spend a long time
> recovering.
>
> -Chris Crandall
>

Let me put my other hat on, for a moment, as a research social
psychologist. The evidence shows the grieving is a much longer process
for people in the midst of it, than for people watching on the sidelines.

For example, one study (Lehman, Wortman & Williams, JPSP) showed that, 5
years after a loss (child or spouse), most people had sad thoughts EVERY
DAY. These people's grief was no indication of personal weakness or
individual differences--regardless of personal strength, regardless of
income or age, a loss like Susanne's does not repair itself in weeks or
months, or even years.

Life goes on, people adapt, and most normal people will be able to
return to life, be productive, experience joy. But it's never the same
again.

So before we judge anyone for taking months or more to recover, let's
remember that it's natural, normal, and essential to spend a long time
recovering.

-Chris Crandall

"Perhaps grieving is indeed an important task to take as seriously as anything. Anyone I've talked to offered the same counsel, irrespective of tribal, religious or philosophical persuasions. The issue appears to be the risk of suffering the corrosive consequences of un-digested pains that will show up at uncontrollable occasions to general consternations."

Wise words.

I believe the truth is even stronger. That all pain, not just grieving the death of a loved one, must be felt. If not felt, it will stick around, and push to be felt at any opportunity.

In fact, I believe that this is true of all feelings. Shame, pride, joy, pleasure, all of it.

-J

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Paul & Susanne<glassens@...>wrote:
Susanne,
Allow me to respectfully applaud the very good choices and priorities you are making for your selfcare at this time.
In my Jewish heritage the tradition was seven days, Shivah, intense grieving during which one did nothing, not so much as prepare a meal - that's what friends are for. Followed by 30 days slightly less intense grieving. And then a full year until the lighting of the first 'yahrzeit' (year's time) candle. Throughout the period a beautiful prayer called the Kaddish is recited. (Allen Ginsberg wrote a poem of the same name.)
Since I see someone else has mentioned a book I thought I might also, although I realize that such reading will have to wait until you yourself are good and ready. It's an old one;No Voice is Ever Wholly Lostby Louise J. Kaplan, Simon & Shuster, 1995. Perhaps helpfully, a woman's (psychologist's) perspective - although I too found it very helpful and used it in counselling others.
My best wishes and fondest thoughts to you and all who will be celebrating Phil's extraordinary life this weekend.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From:Susanne@...
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:56 PM
Subject:[SPAM][bolger] Grieving vs. Plans Sales

Perhaps grieving is indeed an important task to take as seriously as anything. Anyone I've talked to offered the same counsel, irrespective of tribal, religious or philosophical persuasions. The issue appears to be the risk of suffering the corrosive consequences of un-digested pains that will show up at uncontrollable occasions to general consternations.

For instance, I find Phil's Study a place of both his intense presence and the agony of his certain absence from my life... Takes time to 'acclimate'.

On the other hand, Lonarnecke, I spoke of next week Tuesday, Wednesday - not 'weeks'...
And it may be that tools-acquisition, shop-organization, work-place 'rythm' might need tending to in the meantime. We've had cases where plans were expected - and should have been delivered earlier - but where finally not even a suitable shop-space was available yet after all...

Susanne,

Allow me to respectfully applaud the very good choices and priorities you are making for your selfcare at this time.

In my Jewish heritage the tradition was seven days, Shivah, intense grieving during which one did nothing, not so much as prepare a meal - that's what friends are for. Followed by 30 days slightly less intense grieving. And then a full year until the lighting of the first 'yahrzeit' (year's time) candle. Throughout the period a beautiful prayer called the Kaddish is recited. (Allen Ginsberg wrote a poem of the same name.)

Since I see someone else has mentioned a book I thought I might also, although I realize that such reading will have to wait until you yourself are good and ready. It's an old one;No Voice is Ever Wholly Lostby Louise J. Kaplan, Simon & Shuster, 1995. Perhaps helpfully, a woman's (psychologist's) perspective - although I too found it very helpful and used it in counselling others.

My best wishes and fondest thoughts to you and all who will be celebrating Phil's extraordinary life this weekend.

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From:Susanne@...
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:56 PM
Subject:[SPAM][bolger] Grieving vs. Plans Sales

Perhaps grieving is indeed an important task to take as seriously as anything. Anyone I've talked to offered the same counsel, irrespective of tribal, religious or philosophical persuasions. The issue appears to be the risk of suffering the corrosive consequences of un-digested pains that will show up at uncontrollable occasions to general consternations.

For instance, I find Phil's Study a place of both his intense presence and the agony of his certain absence from my life... Takes time to 'acclimate'.

On the other hand, Lonarnecke, I spoke of next week Tuesday, Wednesday - not 'weeks'...
And it may be that tools-acquisition, shop-organization, work-place 'rythm' might need tending to in the meantime. We've had cases where plans were expected - and should have been delivered earlier - but where finally not even a suitable shop-space was available yet after all...

Suzanne,

Please order (or otherwise get a copy of):

How to Survive the Loss of a Loveby Peter McWilliams, Harold H. Bloomfield, and Melba Colgrove(Mass Market Paperback- Oct 1993)

Buy new: $7.95

(160)

from Amazon. It's a magnificent book and helped me when I needed it.

Roger Derby

On Sep 17, 2009, at 3:56 PM,Susanne@...wrote:

Perhaps grieving is indeed an important task to take as seriously as anything. Anyone I've talked to offered the same counsel, irrespective of tribal, religious or philosophical persuasions. The issue appears to be the risk of suffering the corrosive consequences of un-digested pains that will show up at uncontrollable occasions to general consternations.

For instance, I find Phil's Study a place of both his intense presence and the agony of his certain absence from my life... Takes time to 'acclimate'.

On the other hand, Lonarnecke, I spoke of next week Tuesday, Wednesday - not 'weeks'...
And it may be that tools-acquisition, shop-organization, work-place 'rythm' might need tending to in the meantime. We've had cases where plans were expected - and should have been delivered earlier - but where finally not even a suitable shop-space was available yet after all...

Take care of yourself Susanne (I got it right this time). You obviously have a lot of support in this caring community. The pressure to do too much too soon could ruin the rest of your life and that would only compound the pain of losing Phil for the whole community. I, for one, will be patient and supportive in the only way I know how, prayer.

Peace,

Denis Meier

From:"Susanne@..." <philbolger@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:56:08 PM
Subject:[bolger] Grieving vs. Plans Sales

Perhaps grieving is indeed an important task to take as seriously as anything. Anyone I've talked to offered the same counsel, irrespective of tribal, religious or philosophical persuasions. The issue appears to be the risk of suffering the corrosive consequences of un-digested pains that will show up at uncontrollable occasions to general consternations.

For instance, I find Phil's Study a place of both his intense presence and the agony of his certain absence from my life... Takes time to 'acclimate'.

On the other hand, Lonarnecke, I spoke of next week Tuesday, Wednesday - not 'weeks'...
And it may be that tools-acquisition, shop-organization, work-place 'rythm' might need tending to in the meantime. We've had cases where plans were expected - and should have been delivered earlier - but where finally not even a suitable shop-space was available yet after all...

Reclaim your name@...or@....Get your new email address now!

"Spare us the histrionics. Sometimes it's not all about you."
"The lack of sensitivity boggles the mind."
"You're being a prick"

Lon, these guys are all spot on about your unbelievably crass posts -
and noboby but you cares about your self justifications.

Do us all, and especially Susanne, a favor and just go away.

Dave Gentry

It sounds like you just did things in the wrong order: rented space before you got the plans.

Folks who frequent this group would know that PB&F was slow by internet standards even when Phil was around. You didn't have that key piece of information. This isn't Amazon.com!

Well, now you get to make the best of your situation. You have options. This is not the end of the world. Good luck.

-J

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 8:47 PM, lonarnecke<lonarnecke@...>wrote:
sorry,

you guys are right. i need to build another designers boat. i expected that it would be about 2 or three weeks before i could get started from the time i sent my order. 7, 8, 10 weeks is just too long to wait for someone to do what i assumed was their business...selling plans.

I understand her loss probably more than you but you are right. i am being selfish. i wanted to be one of the few who built one of Phil's boats. I had a time line, bought the materials, rented a space, collected my tools...and waited. I am still waiting 5 weeks later and the first word i get as to when i can expect my plans tells me it is going to be another 2 weeks....maybe

I bought Phil's plans for Tennessee back in the 90's and after building all the bulkheads sold the whole thing. i was wanting to rekindle that interest and cruise the lakes in central texas but sometimes fate steps in and changes your plans.

I meant no disrespect and i would never downplay susanne's loss. I was attempting to become part of what made Phil Bolger special. His ability to design something that an everyday guy could build. I knew i could build this boat because he designed it so i could.

too bad that i will never experience what you know so well and too bad that so few others will either.

good luck

Lon Arnecke

Spare us the histrionics. Sometimes it's not all about you.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "lonarnecke" <lonarnecke@...> wrote:
>
> sorry,
>
> you guys are right. i need to build another designers boat. i expected that it would be about 2 or three weeks before i could get started from the time i sent my order. 7, 8, 10 weeks is just too long to wait for someone to do what i assumed was their business...selling plans.
>
> I understand her loss probably more than you but you are right. i am being selfish. i wanted to be one of the few who built one of Phil's boats. I had a time line, bought the materials, rented a space, collected my tools...and waited. I am still waiting 5 weeks later and the first word i get as to when i can expect my plans tells me it is going to be another 2 weeks....maybe
>
> I bought Phil's plans for Tennessee back in the 90's and after building all the bulkheads sold the whole thing. i was wanting to rekindle that interest and cruise the lakes in central texas but sometimes fate steps in and changes your plans.
>
> I meant no disrespect and i would never downplay susanne's loss. I was attempting to become part of what made Phil Bolger special. His ability to design something that an everyday guy could build. I knew i could build this boat because he designed it so i could.
>
>
> too bad that i will never experience what you know so well and too bad that so few others will either.
>
> good luck
>
> Lon Arnecke
>

sorry,

you guys are right. i need to build another designers boat. i expected that it would be about 2 or three weeks before i could get started from the time i sent my order. 7, 8, 10 weeks is just too long to wait for someone to do what i assumed was their business...selling plans.

I understand her loss probably more than you but you are right. i am being selfish. i wanted to be one of the few who built one of Phil's boats. I had a time line, bought the materials, rented a space, collected my tools...and waited. I am still waiting 5 weeks later and the first word i get as to when i can expect my plans tells me it is going to be another 2 weeks....maybe

I bought Phil's plans for Tennessee back in the 90's and after building all the bulkheads sold the whole thing. i was wanting to rekindle that interest and cruise the lakes in central texas but sometimes fate steps in and changes your plans.

I meant no disrespect and i would never downplay susanne's loss. I was attempting to become part of what made Phil Bolger special. His ability to design something that an everyday guy could build. I knew i could build this boat because he designed it so i could.

too bad that i will never experience what you know so well and too bad that so few others will either.

good luck

Lon Arnecke