--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@... wrote:
>
> Another problem that I have thought about is water in the flat bottom of the boat. You stand on the bottom. There are no floors above a bilge. No Vee bottom to create a sump. Any water in the boat and you are standing in it. Mr. Bolger made a floor in the Idaho cabin about 1.5 inches above the bottom. Plywood with one inch slats fastened underneath laid on the bottom of the boat.
> Any ideas for a bilge pump that will pump down to maybe 1/8 inch? A flat piece of plywood spaced 1/8" from the bottom with a suction hose in the middle hooked to a diaphragm pump?
> A Shop Vac with a bilge pump inside to empty it?
>
> Charles
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
>
>
> "Regen" depends on there being kinetic energy to spin the motor which is, for the moment, connected to act as a dc generator. This works well when you have a large mass moving to provide the energy (like a string of rail cars) and is used primarily for braking. The locomotives have resistor banks on top to take the energy and convert it to heat and disapate it.
>
> If I understand you right, you are thinking of a hybird drive where the IC engine drives the prop through the motor shaft and the motor doubles as a generator when the IC (diesel or gasoline) is driving the prop. This would be an optimal use of installed components. A sprag clutch would be a low drag way to get the IC engine connect to the drive and MUCH better than an electro magnetic scheme.
>
> Might find what you need in a GM automatic transmission from the last 15-20 years or so.
>
> Don
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@ wrote:
> >
> >...the regen circuit can charge the batteries....
> >
>

Flotsam and Jetsam: The Collected Adventures, Opinions, and Wisdom from a Life Spent Messing About in Boats (Paperback)

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Jay K. Jeffries<bottomgun@...>wrote:

John,

Do you have a title for the book.  Just looked up Garth Battista as author on Amazon but could find no listing for a nautical book.

R/Jay

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfJohn Bell
Sent:Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:18 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Idaho, Clam Skiff, Tenn, Atkin ideas

Garth Battista (who sometimes posts here) recently published a collection of Rob White essays. Buy the book!

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@... wrote:
>
>...the regen circuit can charge the batteries....
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <charleswhodges@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 4:36 AM


> One thing I considered is a drive like a diesel submarine. Get an electric
> vehicle controller with regen braking and an brushed motor. Connect the motor
> to the prop shaft with a belt. Size the pulleys to get the motor rpm in the
> best range. Use a dog clutch or a bidirectional sprag clutch to disconnect the
> diesel from the prop shaft when needed. With the diesel disconnected you have
> electric drive. When cruising on diesel power, the regen circuit can charge
> the batteries . I think the charge rate is fully controllable and can be
> quite high. Good EV controllers are now down to <$400, some a lot less and
> have a lot of programable features.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 6:16 AM, daschultz2000<daschultz8275@...>wrote:

Charles nails the primary issues.

Also you can't flood the bearings with water and expect any kind of life.  Lubricity of water is way to low, and you'll never keep the water out of the bearings.

Counter-example: cutless bearings on the prop end of the shaft log of any inboard installation. They're turning about the same speed, but they aren't thrust bearings. Hydrodynamic bearings are another reasonable possibility -- low maintenance but tricky to make in the first place.

If running such a motor flooded was a good idea, the scooters for SCUBA divers would have been using them years ago.  They don't.

I don't believe any of the scooters use brushless motors, which are the only kind where flooded running is possible even as a thought experiment. This isn't all that surprising -- BLDCs have only started to get into consumer products other than hard disk drives (which, AIUI, have pretty much always been brushless) in the past few years and most of the scooter designs I've seen are much older than that.

-p

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Chester Young" <chester@...> wrote:
>
> Charles:
>
>
>
> Not sure how AutoCAD Mechanical works but the standard version of CAD
> saves as 2004 up until 2008 wherein it is an option to save as 2004
> format or 2008, there is no 2006 version. Regardless I have
> subscription on all the seats in our office so we have 2010 available.
> If you save it in its native format that should be good enough. I have
> elected to stay with 2008 or earlier due to the operating overhead that
> the 2009 and later require to run. The next step will be to switch over
> to 64 bit machines, we have one in the office but there are a number of
> frequently used programs that are not yet available in 64 bit format or
> I am being too cheap to purchase updated software when the 32 bit
> version works just fine. I look forward to seeing a vector generated
> version of your hull and am even more interested in how it will perform.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@... wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> Robb White's web site is still up. Check it out.
>
>http://www.robbwhite.com/rescue.minor.machinery.html
>
> Charles
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gaff_rigged72" <gaff_rigged72@> wrote:
> >
> > Charles,
> > Do you recall where I could find the Rescue Minor specs that Mr. White wrote about, especially the keel cooler. I recall that the Wooden Boat article was much abrieviated (and not much detail in his WB bio), and also reading at least one article in Messing About.
> > Thanks
> > Chris Brunette

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 2:45 AM, hs<hardystein2004@...>wrote:

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
>

> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 6:52 PM, <charleswhodges@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Electric is better than hydraulic. Use a golf cart controller and parts.
> >
> >
> Speaking of electric, I've been thinking of the possibility of a flooded
> brushless DC motor for final drive. Since it doesn't have brushes and all
> the conducting bits are stationary, you can encapsulate them and obviate the
> need for moving seals of any kind. The seawater flowing through the motor
> provides the cooling. The only through-hull needed is a hermetically sealed
> electrical connector. If you use an outrunner type design (rotor on the
> outside of the stator), you might even be able to integrate it into the hub
> of the prop. Seems like, with appropriate design, it could be the lowest
> maintenance and most durable marine propulsion system. Thoughts?
>
> -p
>

That sounds BRILLIANT !

Where are  brushless motors like this used ?
I`m guessing industry , but being DC I`m curious where  you would source  such a motor .Can you expand on ths please ?
How large a motor would you need for say a 30 ft boat ?

------------------------------------

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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@... wrote:
>
> If the moving parts move water, you will have drag losses like a pump. Air is much easier to move than water and less corrosive. Maybe a sealed motor with a slight positive pressure through a vent tube to keep the water out. The wires could go in the tube. Water would still cool the stator.
>
> Charles
>

>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 6:52 PM, <charleswhodges@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Electric is better than hydraulic. Use a golf cart controller and parts.
> >
> >
> Speaking of electric, I've been thinking of the possibility of a flooded
> brushless DC motor for final drive. Since it doesn't have brushes and all
> the conducting bits are stationary, you can encapsulate them and obviate the
> need for moving seals of any kind. The seawater flowing through the motor
> provides the cooling. The only through-hull needed is a hermetically sealed
> electrical connector. If you use an outrunner type design (rotor on the
> outside of the stator), you might even be able to integrate it into the hub
> of the prop. Seems like, with appropriate design, it could be the lowest
> maintenance and most durable marine propulsion system. Thoughts?
>
> -p
>

On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:12:25 -0700, Chris B wrote:

> Do you recall where I could find the Rescue Minor specs that Mr. White
> wrote about, especially the keel cooler. I recall that the Wooden Boat
> article was much abrieviated (and not much detail in his WB bio), and
> also reading at least one article in Messing About.

--
John <jkohnen@...>
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. <Benjamin
Franklin>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 6:52 PM, <charleswhodges@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Electric is better than hydraulic. Use a golf cart controller and parts.
> >
> >
> Speaking of electric, I've been thinking of the possibility of a flooded
> brushless DC motor for final drive. Since it doesn't have brushes and all
> the conducting bits are stationary, you can encapsulate them and obviate the
> need for moving seals of any kind. The seawater flowing through the motor
> provides the cooling. The only through-hull needed is a hermetically sealed
> electrical connector. If you use an outrunner type design (rotor on the
> outside of the stator), you might even be able to integrate it into the hub
> of the prop. Seems like, with appropriate design, it could be the lowest
> maintenance and most durable marine propulsion system. Thoughts?
>
> -p
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote:
>
> There is also a considerable development of heat in an hydraulic pums and heat is also energy.
> Being a little bit familiar with remotely controlled hydraulic controls operation I did a little research about the cost for a similar installation and discovered that the total cost is way above a traditional installation with motor and gears.
> First problem, you need a higher HP motor to develop the same HP output at the prop.
> You save the money of the gearbox, but the cost of the hidraulic pump, motor, bi-directional valve, hoses, fittings and recovery tank is waaaaay high.
> You may save money by obtaining the parts from a surplus center, but the prices still high and you may end up with the problem that you can not find spare parts.
> Furthermore, most of the hydraulic pumps are rated for a maximum rpm that is about half of the RPM of a small diesel, therefore you still need a reduction gear or couple the pump to the motor with a belt and puley system.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 6:52 PM,<charleswhodges@...>wrote:

Electric is better than hydraulic. Use a golf cart controller and parts.

Speaking of electric, I've been thinking of the possibility of a flooded brushless DC motor for final drive. Since it doesn't have brushes and all the conducting bits are stationary, you can encapsulate them and obviate the need for moving seals of any kind. The seawater flowing through the motor provides the cooling. The only through-hull needed is a hermetically sealed electrical connector. If you use an outrunner type design (rotor on the outside of the stator), you might even be able to integrate it into the hub of the prop. Seems like, with appropriate design, it could be the lowest maintenance and most durable marine propulsion system. Thoughts?

-p

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "eric14850" <eric14850@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to know your resources for acquiring hydraulic pumps and motors, and about sizing motors and pumps to match. My needs are in the less than ten hp range. At one point I wanted to mount a hydraulic motor and folding prop on my rudder. Gave up for lack of info and sources. Present idea is a side or rudder mounted Torqueedo electric outboard. But this is the second reference to hydraulic drive in the past week. Maybe it is time to revisit the notion.

The Kubota was in a hydraulic powered sweeper that I got locally. It had several hydraulic motors but none the right speed. I bought a new/takeoff motor in the size and type I needed from a surplus dealer on the web.
Electric is better than hydraulic. Use a golf cart controller and parts. I'm using hydraulic because I had it on hand mostly for free. It has problems - heat and whine - especially if you do a poor job of design when matching up components. I am a retired engineer. That helps.

> You mentioned gearing. Gearing involves losses as does hydraulic drive. Proper matching of pump and motor and reversable motor should obviate any need for gears. Why did you use gears?
>
I did not use gears. Displacement ratio between pump and motor has the same effect on speed and torque as the ratio between a driving and a driven gear.

> Seems 33HP could drive you at considerably more than 7kn.

True but with higher fuel usage and a rougher ride. This particular Kubota is bigger and heavier than I would like but it is what I have. The engine will deliver 33hp (29 cont.) at 3000 rpm. It will deliver about 20 hp at 2000 rpm. I plan to cruise it at 2000 rpm under partial load - maybe < 10 hp. Today's efficient engines get up into the range of 18 hp-hours/ gallon so 9 hp. would use 1/2 gallon/ hour (9/18). 29 hp. would use 1.61 gallons per hour (29/18). A 50 year old engine or one in poor shape might be 12 -14 hp.-hr/gallon - not as efficient.

Charles

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gaff_rigged72" <gaff_rigged72@...> wrote:
>
> Charles,
> Do you recall where I could find the Rescue Minor specs that Mr. White wrote about, especially the keel cooler. I recall that the Wooden Boat article was much abrieviated (and not much detail in his WB bio), and also reading at least one article in Messing About.
> Thanks
> Chris Brunette
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@ wrote:
> >
> > I have put some pictures in a Bolger2 photo album named Adagio.
> >
> > I wanted to build a quiet day boat/ picnic boat. The Idaho seemed about right but I had an inboard 33hp. diesel on hand from a Tennant parking lot sweeper.
> > I asked Mr. Bolger about using The Clam Skiff bottom on the Idaho. He said that he thought it work well and the CS transom could be used too if desired.
> > I liked the flat bottom and heavier construction of the Idaho over the Tennessee but I liked the 6' width of the Tennessee better than the 5' Idaho - especially with an engine taking up room.
> > The Atkin Sand Piper is a tunnel hull design that is dead flat in the center. That mated easily to an Idaho front section which is also flat. The chines of the Sand Piper go straight back from the center with no rocker so the sides are below the waterline to give the stern more floatation. Picture a Sand Piper with the timber keel widened to a box keel. The flat bottom ahead of the tunnel may be a problem at planing speeds. A slight vee up front might shift air bubbles to the outside and keep them out of the tunnel and the propeller. I don't plan to travel that fast and want very shallow draft.
> > The Atkin Shoals Runner has an inboard rudder and prop protected by a steel skeg. It has anti-trip chines.
> > I liked Robb White's keel cooler idea. I plan to use a vertical dry stack. The Kubota engine has a variable displacement piston hydraulic pump that I will close-couple to a bent-axis piston motor. It is closed circuit and should be 90+% efficient. I should be able to cruise at maybe 7.5 knots(1.34 x sqrt 32') on about 1/2 gallon per hour. I'm using a 10 inch 1960-1968 Evinrude pin drive prop. It fits a straight shaft, no taper or splines to cut, is inexpensive, available in several pitches and was used for up to 90 hp at high rpm. My motor displacement is less than the pump displacement so my gearing is a 24% overdrive- If the diesel is set at 2000 rpm (3000 is max) the prop can go from 0 to 2500 rpm in either direction.
> > I used Autocad to put all the ideas together and do the weight and balance calculations. I used vertical sides for the box keel to make drawing true shape patterns easy. I used 5 ply fir MDO plywood and epoxy.
> >
> > Charles
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Chester Young" <chester@...> wrote:
>
> Charles:
>
>
>
> What is the chance of you posting your Cad dwg to the files section? I
> have drawn a considerable bit of the Tennessee in Cad (2D only) while
> reworking the EstherMae and am very interested in what others may be
> doing with the same or similar hull. I have also gotten my hands on a
> book of naval ship handling and the similarities of the Tennessee to a
> destroyer are captivating, in that respect the slight rocker that the
> Tennessee has in comparison to the Idaho's flat run seems to be of value
> when running at or above planning speeds in light chop or rougher water.
> With your modified stern you may very likely improve on the handling,
> although I would caution about a following wake with the bow being
> straight as it may hold a set direction when a larger vessel overtakes
> you. First you surf then you broach, if your wife is like mine she will
> not have any fascination with the handling characteristics that result.
>
>
>
> ~Caloosarat
>
>
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of charleswhodges@...
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:46 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Idaho, Clam Skiff, Tenn, Atkin ideas
>
>
>
>
>
> I have put some pictures in a Bolger2 photo album named Adagio.
>
> I wanted to build a quiet day boat/ picnic boat. The Idaho seemed about
> right but I had an inboard 33hp. diesel on hand from a Tennant parking
> lot sweeper.
> I asked Mr. Bolger about using The Clam Skiff bottom on the Idaho. He
> said that he thought it work well and the CS transom could be used too
> if desired.
> I liked the flat bottom and heavier construction of the Idaho over the
> Tennessee but I liked the 6' width of the Tennessee better than the 5'
> Idaho - especially with an engine taking up room.
> The Atkin Sand Piper is a tunnel hull design that is dead flat in the
> center. That mated easily to an Idaho front section which is also flat.
> The chines of the Sand Piper go straight back from the center with no
> rocker so the sides are below the waterline to give the stern more
> floatation. Picture a Sand Piper with the timber keel widened to a box
> keel. The flat bottom ahead of the tunnel may be a problem at planing
> speeds. A slight vee up front might shift air bubbles to the outside and
> keep them out of the tunnel and the propeller. I don't plan to travel
> that fast and want very shallow draft.
> The Atkin Shoals Runner has an inboard rudder and prop protected by a
> steel skeg. It has anti-trip chines.
> I liked Robb White's keel cooler idea. I plan to use a vertical dry
> stack. The Kubota engine has a variable displacement piston hydraulic
> pump that I will close-couple to a bent-axis piston motor. It is closed
> circuit and should be 90+% efficient. I should be able to cruise at
> maybe 7.5 knots(1.34 x sqrt 32') on about 1/2 gallon per hour. I'm using
> a 10 inch 1960-1968 Evinrude pin drive prop. It fits a straight shaft,
> no taper or splines to cut, is inexpensive, available in several pitches
> and was used for up to 90 hp at high rpm. My motor displacement is less
> than the pump displacement so my gearing is a 24% overdrive- If the
> diesel is set at 2000 rpm (3000 is max) the prop can go from 0 to 2500
> rpm in either direction.
> I used Autocad to put all the ideas together and do the weight and
> balance calculations. I used vertical sides for the box keel to make
> drawing true shape patterns easy. I used 5 ply fir MDO plywood and
> epoxy.
>
> Charles
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
> ....PCB drew a tunnel stern/deep V utility (See Utility for Home Builders,
> Chapter 9 of The Folding Schooner). As far as I know, he never pursued
> tunnel hulls after this, though a tunnel stern mated with a box keel would
> seem to be a natural.......

>> For a long time, I've thought the tunnel stern/box keel would be an
>> excellent combination and had hoped Phil would have done some work on such a
>> concept. I've toyed around with the idea and worked up some sketches. This
>> combination solves a lot of problems. It allows for low placement of engine
>> and ballast while retaining shallow draft and provides for standing headroom
>> without a lot of top hamper.
>>
>
> Fred Schumacher
>
>>
>>
>>
>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:27 PM, eric14850<eric14850@...>wrote:

I would like to know your resources for acquiring hydraulic pumps and motors, and about sizing motors and pumps to match.  My needs are in the less than ten hp range.  At one point I wanted to mount a hydraulic motor and folding prop on my rudder.  Gave up for lack of info and sources.  Present idea is a side or rudder mounted Torqueedo electric outboard.  But this is the second reference to hydraulic drive in the past week.  Maybe it is time to revisit the notion.

You mentioned gearing.  Gearing involves losses as does hydraulic drive.  Proper matching of pump and motor and reversable motor should obviate any need for gears.  Why did you use gears?

Seems 33HP could drive you at considerably more than 7kn.
Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@... wrote:
>

> I have put some pictures in a Bolger2 photo album named Adagio.
>
> I wanted to build a quiet day boat/ picnic boat. The Idaho seemed about right but I had an inboard 33hp. diesel on hand from a Tennant parking lot sweeper.
> I asked Mr. Bolger about using The Clam Skiff bottom on the Idaho. He said that he thought it work well and the CS transom could be used too if desired.
> I liked the flat bottom and heavier construction of the Idaho over the Tennessee but I liked the 6' width of the Tennessee better than the 5' Idaho - especially with an engine taking up room.
> The Atkin Sand Piper is a tunnel hull design that is dead flat in the center. That mated easily to an Idaho front section which is also flat. The chines of the Sand Piper go straight back from the center with no rocker so the sides are below the waterline to give the stern more floatation. Picture a Sand Piper with the timber keel widened to a box keel. The flat bottom ahead of the tunnel may be a problem at planing speeds. A slight vee up front might shift air bubbles to the outside and keep them out of the tunnel and the propeller. I don't plan to travel that fast and want very shallow draft.
> The Atkin Shoals Runner has an inboard rudder and prop protected by a steel skeg. It has anti-trip chines.
> I liked Robb White's keel cooler idea. I plan to use a vertical dry stack. The Kubota engine has a variable displacement piston hydraulic pump that I will close-couple to a bent-axis piston motor. It is closed circuit and should be 90+% efficient. I should be able to cruise at maybe 7.5 knots(1.34 x sqrt 32') on about 1/2 gallon per hour. I'm using a 10 inch 1960-1968 Evinrude pin drive prop. It fits a straight shaft, no taper or splines to cut, is inexpensive, available in several pitches and was used for up to 90 hp at high rpm. My motor displacement is less than the pump displacement so my gearing is a 24% overdrive- If the diesel is set at 2000 rpm (3000 is max) the prop can go from 0 to 2500 rpm in either direction.
> I used Autocad to put all the ideas together and do the weight and balance calculations. I used vertical sides for the box keel to make drawing true shape patterns easy. I used 5 ply fir MDO plywood and epoxy.
>
> Charles
>




------------------------------------

Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@... wrote:
>
> I have put some pictures in a Bolger2 photo album named Adagio.
>
> I wanted to build a quiet day boat/ picnic boat. The Idaho seemed about right but I had an inboard 33hp. diesel on hand from a Tennant parking lot sweeper.
> I asked Mr. Bolger about using The Clam Skiff bottom on the Idaho. He said that he thought it work well and the CS transom could be used too if desired.
> I liked the flat bottom and heavier construction of the Idaho over the Tennessee but I liked the 6' width of the Tennessee better than the 5' Idaho - especially with an engine taking up room.
> The Atkin Sand Piper is a tunnel hull design that is dead flat in the center. That mated easily to an Idaho front section which is also flat. The chines of the Sand Piper go straight back from the center with no rocker so the sides are below the waterline to give the stern more floatation. Picture a Sand Piper with the timber keel widened to a box keel. The flat bottom ahead of the tunnel may be a problem at planing speeds. A slight vee up front might shift air bubbles to the outside and keep them out of the tunnel and the propeller. I don't plan to travel that fast and want very shallow draft.
> The Atkin Shoals Runner has an inboard rudder and prop protected by a steel skeg. It has anti-trip chines.
> I liked Robb White's keel cooler idea. I plan to use a vertical dry stack. The Kubota engine has a variable displacement piston hydraulic pump that I will close-couple to a bent-axis piston motor. It is closed circuit and should be 90+% efficient. I should be able to cruise at maybe 7.5 knots(1.34 x sqrt 32') on about 1/2 gallon per hour. I'm using a 10 inch 1960-1968 Evinrude pin drive prop. It fits a straight shaft, no taper or splines to cut, is inexpensive, available in several pitches and was used for up to 90 hp at high rpm. My motor displacement is less than the pump displacement so my gearing is a 24% overdrive- If the diesel is set at 2000 rpm (3000 is max) the prop can go from 0 to 2500 rpm in either direction.
> I used Autocad to put all the ideas together and do the weight and balance calculations. I used vertical sides for the box keel to make drawing true shape patterns easy. I used 5 ply fir MDO plywood and epoxy.
>
> Charles
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
>
> It seems to me that given the variety and quality of outboards
generally
> available on the market today, it's hard to justify an inboard for a
small
> powerboat absent special requirements restricting prop placement (such
as
> ski boats) or mandating jet drive. Inboard installation is a pretty
> significant project compared to bolting the entire drivetrain as a
single,
> self-contained unit.
>
> -p
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:16 AM, John and Kathy Trussell <
> jtrussell2@... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Fred,

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:16 AM, John and Kathy Trussell<jtrussell2@...>wrote:

Fred,

PCB drew a tunnel stern/deep V utility (See Utility for Home Builders, Chapter 9 of The Folding Schooner). As far as I know, he never pursued tunnel hulls after this, though a tunnel stern mated with a box keel would seem to be a natural.  With the scarcity of small inboards and the ability of outboards to kick up and/or propel boats while the motor is partially raised, PCB might have felt that there was little need for the complex construction needed for a tunnel stern.

JohnT

---

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfFred Schumacher
Sent:Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:35 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Idaho, Clam Skiff, Tenn, Atkin ideas

For a long time, I've thought the tunnel stern/box keel would be an excellent combination and had hoped Phil would have done some work on such a concept. I've toyed around with the idea and worked up some sketches. This combination solves a lot of problems. It allows for low placement of engine and ballast while retaining shallow draft and provides for standing headroom without a lot of top hamper.

Fred Schumacher

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Bell <yonderman@...> wrote:
>
> Despit the name, Robb White's Rescue Minor is not the same boat as Atkin's
> version. Robb took a lot of inspiration from Aktin, but the boat was
> entirely his design.
>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 2:07 PM, John Weiss<jrweiss98155@...>wrote:

Robb White wrote a lot for Messing About in Boats, so you might call or write
Bob Hicks and ask him if he has an archive of Rescue Minor articles.

----- Original Message -----
From: "gaff_rigged72" <gaff_rigged72@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:12 AM

> Charles,
> Do you recall where I could find the Rescue Minor specs that Mr. White wrote
> about, especially the keel cooler. I recall that the Wooden Boat article was
> much abrieviated (and not much detail in his WB bio), and also reading at
> least one article in Messing About.
> Thanks
> Chris Brunette

----- Original Message -----
From: "gaff_rigged72" <gaff_rigged72@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:12 AM


> Charles,
> Do you recall where I could find the Rescue Minor specs that Mr. White wrote
> about, especially the keel cooler. I recall that the Wooden Boat article was
> much abrieviated (and not much detail in his WB bio), and also reading at
> least one article in Messing About.
> Thanks
> Chris Brunette

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:12 AM, gaff_rigged72<gaff_rigged72@...>wrote:

Charles,
Do you recall where I could find the Rescue Minor specs that Mr. White wrote about, especially the keel cooler. I recall that the Wooden Boat article was much abrieviated (and not much detail in his WB bio), and also reading at least one article in Messing About.
Thanks
Chris Brunette

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@... wrote:
>

> I have put some pictures in a Bolger2 photo album named Adagio.
>
> I wanted to build a quiet day boat/ picnic boat. The Idaho seemed about right but I had an inboard 33hp. diesel on hand from a Tennant parking lot sweeper.
> I asked Mr. Bolger about using The Clam Skiff bottom on the Idaho. He said that he thought it work well and the CS transom could be used too if desired.
> I liked the flat bottom and heavier construction of the Idaho over the Tennessee but I liked the 6' width of the Tennessee better than the 5' Idaho - especially with an engine taking up room.
> The Atkin Sand Piper is a tunnel hull design that is dead flat in the center. That mated easily to an Idaho front section which is also flat. The chines of the Sand Piper go straight back from the center with no rocker so the sides are below the waterline to give the stern more floatation. Picture a Sand Piper with the timber keel widened to a box keel. The flat bottom ahead of the tunnel may be a problem at planing speeds. A slight vee up front might shift air bubbles to the outside and keep them out of the tunnel and the propeller. I don't plan to travel that fast and want very shallow draft.
> The Atkin Shoals Runner has an inboard rudder and prop protected by a steel skeg. It has anti-trip chines.
> I liked Robb White's keel cooler idea. I plan to use a vertical dry stack. The Kubota engine has a variable displacement piston hydraulic pump that I will close-couple to a bent-axis piston motor. It is closed circuit and should be 90+% efficient. I should be able to cruise at maybe 7.5 knots(1.34 x sqrt 32') on about 1/2 gallon per hour. I'm using a 10 inch 1960-1968 Evinrude pin drive prop. It fits a straight shaft, no taper or splines to cut, is inexpensive, available in several pitches and was used for up to 90 hp at high rpm. My motor displacement is less than the pump displacement so my gearing is a 24% overdrive- If the diesel is set at 2000 rpm (3000 is max) the prop can go from 0 to 2500 rpm in either direction.
> I used Autocad to put all the ideas together and do the weight and balance calculations. I used vertical sides for the box keel to make drawing true shape patterns easy. I used 5 ply fir MDO plywood and epoxy.
>
> Charles
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@... wrote:
>
> I have put some pictures in a Bolger2 photo album named Adagio.
>
> I wanted to build a quiet day boat/ picnic boat. The Idaho seemed about right but I had an inboard 33hp. diesel on hand from a Tennant parking lot sweeper.
> I asked Mr. Bolger about using The Clam Skiff bottom on the Idaho. He said that he thought it work well and the CS transom could be used too if desired.
> I liked the flat bottom and heavier construction of the Idaho over the Tennessee but I liked the 6' width of the Tennessee better than the 5' Idaho - especially with an engine taking up room.
> The Atkin Sand Piper is a tunnel hull design that is dead flat in the center. That mated easily to an Idaho front section which is also flat. The chines of the Sand Piper go straight back from the center with no rocker so the sides are below the waterline to give the stern more floatation. Picture a Sand Piper with the timber keel widened to a box keel. The flat bottom ahead of the tunnel may be a problem at planing speeds. A slight vee up front might shift air bubbles to the outside and keep them out of the tunnel and the propeller. I don't plan to travel that fast and want very shallow draft.
> The Atkin Shoals Runner has an inboard rudder and prop protected by a steel skeg. It has anti-trip chines.
> I liked Robb White's keel cooler idea. I plan to use a vertical dry stack. The Kubota engine has a variable displacement piston hydraulic pump that I will close-couple to a bent-axis piston motor. It is closed circuit and should be 90+% efficient. I should be able to cruise at maybe 7.5 knots(1.34 x sqrt 32') on about 1/2 gallon per hour. I'm using a 10 inch 1960-1968 Evinrude pin drive prop. It fits a straight shaft, no taper or splines to cut, is inexpensive, available in several pitches and was used for up to 90 hp at high rpm. My motor displacement is less than the pump displacement so my gearing is a 24% overdrive- If the diesel is set at 2000 rpm (3000 is max) the prop can go from 0 to 2500 rpm in either direction.
> I used Autocad to put all the ideas together and do the weight and balance calculations. I used vertical sides for the box keel to make drawing true shape patterns easy. I used 5 ply fir MDO plywood and epoxy.
>
> Charles
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
>
> Charles,
>
> I find your boat fascinating. I've long admired Atkin's tunnel stern. There are some good video clips out now on the Atkin site of a version called Rescue Minor.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, charleswhodges@... wrote:
>
> I have put some pictures in a Bolger2 photo album named Adagio.
>
> I wanted to build a quiet day boat/ picnic boat. The Idaho seemed about right but I had an inboard 33hp. diesel on hand from a Tennant parking lot sweeper....