Re: [bolger] Re: Eight inch wheels

The over speed argument on the bearings is a red herring, IMO.  I've towed thousands of miles without bearing failure on 8" wheels at 70 mph (touching wood here) because I've kept up with lubrication. If this was such a problem, don't you think the market would have eliminated 8" wheels by now?

I once made a mistake of buying an 8" spare rated only for 50 mph. It blew to bits on an a bridge expansion joint in just a few minutes of use. Using tires with the proper load and speed rating, no problems.

One thing I'd add is that you can buy larger 5.70 x 8 tires for your 8" wheels  that are much larger in diameter than the standard 4.5 x 8'. These have a much higher load rating as well as have a diameter very similar to a 4.5 x 12 wheel/tire.

On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 1:35 PM, ben_2_go<ben_2_go@...>wrote:

Most 8 inch wheels are only rated to run 45 mph.Over speeding the bearings can over heat them and cause catastrophic failure.Be sure your set is rated to run highway speeds.



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> Ben is right on all his points but misses mine. We are not going over rocks in the back country, or, hopefully, over curbs or pot-holes. We are trailering lightweight boats over the highways and byways. I want a gentle ride for my lightweight boats on lightweight trailers over bumps at reasonble speeds on normal roads, Interstate to county and town. Slow way down for anything rougher. And I assure you, the small wheels do follow the bump contours and deliver their forces to the trailer and boat as gently as can be hoped. They don't overheat, they don't wear out fast, they keep the rig low, in short they work very well.
>


Patrick, that's the best item in the thread, and I'm gone from it, outdone.
Ben, to me (no engineer), it seems that you're being obtuse about my idea that small diameter wheels roll up on bumps that bigger diameter wheels have to slap, so that the accelerations applied to the springs and trailer-frame and boat are subtler and more gradual. Granted that the difference between 8" and 10" of 12" wheels isn't great, there still is something to be said for minimal unsprung weight in very light boat/trailer rigs. And for gentleness of ride, spring rates cannot be the whole story. In the case of the Trailex trailers I advocate for very small, narrow boats (double ended rowboats, kayaks, canoes up to 200 lbs.) thereareno springs as such. The central member of the trailer is the main spring, flexing upward with road accelerations to the wheels between the boat-weight-bearing points on this tongue, aluminum being so much more flexible than steel. It is aided by soft tires and axles bedded in rubber, and its performance would probably not be improved by larger rims. Lateral stability would not be improved by the grreater height. Just as I hesitate to modify Phil Bolger's plans, presuming that Phil had things pretty well figured out, I'd be circumspect about telling everybody that the designers of these trailers don't know what they're doing.
OK -- I've been sort of watching this thread of messages for a few days
now and I can no longer resist a basic question: Are 8-inch-wheels
related to 9-inch-nails? Maybe a softer, more roundish sound?

Patrick

ben_2_go wrote:
> Oh I forgot to add that spring rates determins how harsh the ride is on the boat.Tires do play a part.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
>> Ben is right on all his points but misses mine. We are not going over rocks in the back country, or, hopefully, over curbs or pot-holes. We are trailering lightweight boats over the highways and byways. I want a gentle ride for my lightweight boats on lightweight trailers over bumps at reasonble speeds on normal roads, Interstate to county and town. Slow way down for anything rougher. And I assure you, the small wheels do follow the bump contours and deliver their forces to the trailer and boat as gently as can be hoped. They don't overheat, they don't wear out fast, they keep the rig low, in short they work very well.
>>
>>
Oh I forgot to add that spring rates determins how harsh the ride is on the boat.Tires do play a part.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> Ben is right on all his points but misses mine. We are not going over rocks in the back country, or, hopefully, over curbs or pot-holes. We are trailering lightweight boats over the highways and byways. I want a gentle ride for my lightweight boats on lightweight trailers over bumps at reasonble speeds on normal roads, Interstate to county and town. Slow way down for anything rougher. And I assure you, the small wheels do follow the bump contours and deliver their forces to the trailer and boat as gently as can be hoped. They don't overheat, they don't wear out fast, they keep the rig low, in short they work very well.
>
Most 8 inch wheels are only rated to run 45 mph.Over speeding the bearings can over heat them and cause catastrophic failure.Be sure your set is rated to run highway speeds.


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> Ben is right on all his points but misses mine. We are not going over rocks in the back country, or, hopefully, over curbs or pot-holes. We are trailering lightweight boats over the highways and byways. I want a gentle ride for my lightweight boats on lightweight trailers over bumps at reasonble speeds on normal roads, Interstate to county and town. Slow way down for anything rougher. And I assure you, the small wheels do follow the bump contours and deliver their forces to the trailer and boat as gently as can be hoped. They don't overheat, they don't wear out fast, they keep the rig low, in short they work very well.
>
Ben is right on all his points but misses mine. We are not going over rocks in the back country, or, hopefully, over curbs or pot-holes. We are trailering lightweight boats over the highways and byways. I want a gentle ride for my lightweight boats on lightweight trailers over bumps at reasonble speeds on normal roads, Interstate to county and town. Slow way down for anything rougher. And I assure you, the small wheels do follow the bump contours and deliver their forces to the trailer and boat as gently as can be hoped. They don't overheat, they don't wear out fast, they keep the rig low, in short they work very well.

I bought a new boat today. Guess what sized tires it had on the trailer?

Yep, 8"ers. Towed it nearly 200 miles home. Looking through the rear view mirror it sure looked like it was riding fine. I think the key is having springs on your trailer matched to the load more than tire size.

Best,

JB

Thanks Ben that was where I was comeing from. To see the differance back the trailer over a street curb then do the same with the car. The larger diamiter works better. Larger tiers also use less air presure so they give more on a bump taking some of the shock.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ben_2_go" <ben_2_go@...> wrote:
>
> The larger the diameter of the tire the easier it is for a tire to roll over a bump instead of jumping over it.That's why people put over sized tires on 4x4 trucks.Larger tires can also roll over pot holes instead of dropping into them.Some just can't be avoided.A member of my boating forum recently ran his trailer off a curb.When he tried to pull the trailer back up on the ramp,it bent the wheel and axle.He only had a jon boat on the trailer.If he would have had 12 inch wheels,it would have rolled up on it instead of just banging into the curb.The curb was acting like a wheel chock and stopping it.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
> >
> > Jon, why do you say that larger wheeld bounce less than smaller wheels? The causality escapes me. For good suspension, you want minimal unsprung weight. This is one argument for independent suspension and alloy wheels. Smaller is usually lighter. Plus my earlier observation that smaller wheels roll up bumps instead of pounding them from above. There are arguments for larger diameters but I do not think they include softer ride. I am prepared to be corrected, but them's my sentiments at my present state of learning and observation.
> >
>
One real advantage of 12" tires is that one can often buy cheaper 12" radial car tires. Used them for 10 years with no problem. Added a spacer to lift the axle and longer "U" bolts. The 12" rims came from an english mini-- the wheel nut holes needed to be slightly bored out.
>
The larger the diameter of the tire the easier it is for a tire to roll over a bump instead of jumping over it.That's why people put over sized tires on 4x4 trucks.Larger tires can also roll over pot holes instead of dropping into them.Some just can't be avoided.A member of my boating forum recently ran his trailer off a curb.When he tried to pull the trailer back up on the ramp,it bent the wheel and axle.He only had a jon boat on the trailer.If he would have had 12 inch wheels,it would have rolled up on it instead of just banging into the curb.The curb was acting like a wheel chock and stopping it.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> Jon, why do you say that larger wheeld bounce less than smaller wheels? The causality escapes me. For good suspension, you want minimal unsprung weight. This is one argument for independent suspension and alloy wheels. Smaller is usually lighter. Plus my earlier observation that smaller wheels roll up bumps instead of pounding them from above. There are arguments for larger diameters but I do not think they include softer ride. I am prepared to be corrected, but them's my sentiments at my present state of learning and observation.
>
Jon, why do you say that larger wheeld bounce less than smaller wheels? The causality escapes me. For good suspension, you want minimal unsprung weight. This is one argument for independent suspension and alloy wheels. Smaller is usually lighter. Plus my earlier observation that smaller wheels roll up bumps instead of pounding them from above. There are arguments for larger diameters but I do not think they include softer ride. I am prepared to be corrected, but them's my sentiments at my present state of learning and observation. 
Been said most of it in his reply. The hardest thing on a boat is being on a trailer and going down the road so the softer the ride the better. Larger wheels bounce less then smaller so it would follow that larger wheels would cause less wear and tear on the boat. Choice is yours from there.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ben_2_go" <ben_2_go@...> wrote:
>
> Here are the issues I have had with 8 inch wheels and tires.Limited weight of course.Pot holes at speed have a tendancy to blow tires,and/or bend wheels and spindles.I've also had one bounce about 2 foot off the ground when I crossed a bridge.I have never found a situation where I had to use 8 inchers.If I can use them I can use 12 inch wheels and tires.I am surprised that they are still being used.
Here are the issues I have had with 8 inch wheels and tires.Limited weight of course.Pot holes at speed have a tendancy to blow tires,and/or bend wheels and spindles.I've also had one bounce about 2 foot off the ground when I crossed a bridge.I have never found a situation where I had to use 8 inchers.If I can use them I can use 12 inch wheels and tires.I am surprised that they are still being used.



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, PAUL DELORY <PAULDELORY@...> wrote:
>
>
> There is only one small problem, the laws. Depending on the state you are in there may be restrictions on the size of trailer wheel that can be used on certain classes of roads.
>
> BubbaP.
>
>
>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From: goodboat@...
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:13:41 -0400
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Eight inch wheels
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Another plug for the small wheels on small trailers, such as the Trailex SUT-200S (which I sell at a discount, a plug for me, see 'em at www.adirondackgoodboat.com). People often want larger wheels and tires, worrying about the 8" rims, but I dissuade them. Miles is right: no problem. And I happen to think that they may ride better, not worse, in that the smaller wheels roll up on bumps that larger ones would slap. Various cars with smaller than usual wheels ride well. Proportion in all things. Mason
>
>
>
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>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don't worry about storage limits.
>http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009
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Can you cite an exampleof where 8"wheels are illegal? All the trailering law summaries I've seen, such as the one athttp://www.towingworld.com/articles/TowingLaws.htmare silent on wheel diameter.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 3:05 PM, PAUL DELORY<PAULDELORY@...>wrote:

There is only one small problem, the laws. Depending on the state you are in there may be restrictions on the size of trailer wheel that can be used on certain classes of roads.
BubbaP.

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
From:goodboat@...
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:13:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [bolger] Eight inch wheels

Another plug for the small wheels on small trailers, such as the Trailex SUT-200S (which I sell at a discount, a plug for me, see 'em atwww.adirondackgoodboat.com). People often want larger wheels and tires, worrying about the 8" rims, but I dissuade them. Miles is right: no problem. And I happen to think that they may ride better, not worse, in that the smaller wheels roll up on bumps that larger ones would slap. Various cars with smaller than usual wheels ride well. Proportion in all things. Mason

Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.Check it out.



There is only one small problem, the laws. Depending on the state you are in there may be restrictions on the size of trailer wheel that can be used on certain classes of roads.
BubbaP.
 
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: goodboat@...
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:13:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [bolger] Eight inch wheels

 
Another plug for the small wheels on small trailers, such as the Trailex SUT-200S (which I sell at a discount, a plug for me, see 'em atwww.adirondackgoodb oat.com). People often want larger wheels and tires, worrying about the 8" rims, but I dissuade them. Miles is right: no problem. And I happen to think that they may ride better, not worse, in that the smaller wheels roll up on bumps that larger ones would slap. Various cars with smaller than usual wheels ride well. Proportion in all things. Mason



Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.Check it out.
Another plug for the small wheels on small trailers, such as the Trailex SUT-200S (which I sell at a discount, a plug for me, see 'em atwww.adirondackgoodboat.com). People often want larger wheels and tires, worrying about the 8" rims, but I dissuade them. Miles is right: no problem. And I happen to think that they may ride better, not worse, in that the smaller wheels roll up on bumps that larger ones would slap. Various cars with smaller than usual wheels ride well. Proportion in all things. Mason
I found that tire pressure makes a BIG difference!

My 8" wheels are rated at 590# each at 60 PSI. My boat + trailer total just
over 500#. At 60 PSI the trailer is noticeably "bouncier" than at 56 PSI, and
the wear pattern on the tread shows only the middle 1/2 of the tread contacts
the road. They seem to be much happier at 56-58 PSI.

For heavier loads, a higher load range tire will make all the difference in the
world. Be careful when you buy tires that they are the correct load range as
well as correct size. For my old SeaPearl trailer, I couldn't find the high
load range 12" tires at West Marine; I got them at a tire store.


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Bell" <yonderman@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:12 AM


> I'm of the opinion that 8" wheels are not as big a problem at highway speeds
> as people make them out to be. As long as the wheel/tire/bearing combination
> is not loaded beyond it's safe rating, they should run practically forever
> with regular maintenance. The concern about the higher rotational speed is a
> red herring, a product of too many internet 'thought experiments'.
. . .

> The only possible knock against smaller wheels is they don't ride as well as
> the larger ones.
>
> As long as you don't overload the particular wheel/tire/axle combination,
> you should be just fine.
I'm of the opinion that 8" wheels are not as big a problem at highway speeds as people make them out to be. As long as the wheel/tire/bearing combination is not loaded beyond it's safe rating, they should run practically forever with regular maintenance. The concern about the higher rotational speed is a red herring, a product of too many internet 'thought experiments'.
I've got three trailers right now. One is a dual axle job with 14" wheels, loaded weight is about 5,000 lbs.  The other is a pop-up camper with 13" wheels, loaded weight ~2,000 lbs (max), and a little boat trailer with 8" wheels, fully loaded weight of ~400 lbs. I've hauled all of them hundreds of miles at 70 mph. I'm in the habit of feeling the hubs and tires at every stop. As long as they are not hot to the touch, then everything is OK. To be honest, I can never tell a difference between the three trailers hub temperatures.
The only possible knock against smaller wheels is they don't ride as well as the larger ones.
As long as you don't overload the particular wheel/tire/axle combination, you should be just fine.
My $0.02.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:17 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography<jon@...>wrote:

Gregeroy,

...snip...

(although I gave up on that a couple of years ago and went to a Trailex 125 pound alumimum trailer for fear of dropping the boat on me or someone else during the process)
...snip...

How do you like the Trailex? I've been considering the SUT-350-S for my dory and long Gypsy, but they're very expensive for their size, and I'm uncertain about those 8" wheels at highway speeds over the long distances we often travel out here in the west. What has been your experience?

Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm


I'm of the opinion that 8" wheels are not as big a problem at highway speeds as people make them out to be. As long as the wheel/tire/bearing combination is not loaded beyond it's safe rating, they should run practically forever with regular maintenance. The concern about the higher rotational speed is a red herring, a product of too many internet 'thought experiments'.
I've got three trailers right now. One is a dual axle job with 14" wheels, loaded weight is about 5,000 lbs.  The other is a pop-up camper with 13" wheels, loaded weight ~2,000 lbs (max), and a little boat trailer with 8" wheels, fully loaded weight of ~400 lbs. I've hauled all of them hundreds of miles at 70 mph. I'm in the habit of feeling the hubs and tires at every stop. As long as they are not hot to the touch, then everything is OK. To be honest, I can never tell a difference between the three trailers hub temperatures.
The only possible knock against smaller wheels is they don't ride as well as the larger ones.
As long as you don't overload the particular wheel/tire/axle combination, you should be just fine.
My $0.02.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:17 AM, adventures_in_astrophotography<jon@...>wrote:

Gregeroy,

...snip...

(although I gave up on that a couple of years ago and went to a Trailex 125 pound alumimum trailer for fear of dropping the boat on me or someone else during the process)
...snip...

How do you like the Trailex? I've been considering the SUT-350-S for my dory and long Gypsy, but they're very expensive for their size, and I'm uncertain about those 8" wheels at highway speeds over the long distances we often travel out here in the west. What has been your experience?

Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm