Re: Micro flotation foam
Brian
Thanks for pointing this. T don't remember the EU regulations consider the cabin as flotation, but I will take a closer look to the regulations... and yes, I put a watertight hatch in the cabin vent,
Francisco
(slower micro builder on earth)
Thanks for pointing this. T don't remember the EU regulations consider the cabin as flotation, but I will take a closer look to the regulations... and yes, I put a watertight hatch in the cabin vent,
Francisco
(slower micro builder on earth)
> The odd thing about Franciscos' deal is that as Martin points out, the Micro has a huge enclosed space in the cabin, and as I recall reading through the EU rules, with the proper watertight hatches and portholes, this space counts as floation. But I was looking at the sections for open boats and so maybe I didn't see or forgot some clause or another.
>
> Cheers, Brian
>
Martin,
I complety agree with you, Martin! I pretend to use the stowage space below berths only for thinks like dry cloths, documents and things like this. The doubt remains if is a good idea to have flotation below the bunks! For the rest, foam as planned, and well secured!
Cheers
Francisco
(slower micro builder on earth)
I complety agree with you, Martin! I pretend to use the stowage space below berths only for thinks like dry cloths, documents and things like this. The doubt remains if is a good idea to have flotation below the bunks! For the rest, foam as planned, and well secured!
Cheers
Francisco
(slower micro builder on earth)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Martin Roberts <martin.me.roberts@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Having a micro, I would prefer to see some of the flotation chambers
> currently filled with foam - Closed cell insulation blocks, replaced
> with sealed compartments that could be used as storage for things like
> fenders etc. I know the temptation would be to fill them with stuff
> that would not float,, but having them would be useful.
>
> The flotation upfront has taken a bit of a hammering this year as I
> went out in rough seas that came through the open steps and dislodged
> the board holding the foam underneath it. This is obviously not optimal
> as it would float away if I did go over.
>
> I believe that Micro's main flotation would be its cabin which should
> be sealed in bad weather.
>
> Martin
>
> BrianA wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Francisco
> >
> > Having looked into having a home-built boat certified in the EU, I can
> > imagine at least a little of what you are going through. Reading
> > through this string I remembered a guy who built a lovely Micro and
> > launched it in Italy.
> >
> >http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/guest/marco.htm
> > <http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/guest/marco.htm>
> >
> > Don't know him, but anybody building a boat like that probably is
> > going to be a good guy. Maybe he could help you with some ideas, as he
> > has certainly more or less gone through the same business.
> >
> > Cheers, Brian
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "astrolabio68" <astrolabio@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks all for your kind answers, I'm impressed with so much
> > information!
> > >
> > > Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the
> > European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have
> > to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval
> > architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities
> > (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the
> > flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation
> > (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation
> > as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot
> > of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy!
> > >
> > > So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2
> > enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches
> > diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes.
> > In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have
> > better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the
> > planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with
> > this solution.
> > > --------
> > > I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured
> > in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very
> > expensive and complicate to use and predict!
> > >
> > > I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here
> > below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I
> > just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to
> > convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of
> > you!
> > > --------
> > > Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at
> > all, even if I think your reasoning is correct.
> > >
> > > I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's
> > pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front
> > of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is
> > unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help!
> > Thank you!!!
> > > --------
> > >
> > > I thank you all for your feedback
> > >
> > > sincerly
> > >
> > > Francisco
> > > micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "alefoot" <dgw@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Francisco
> > > > > How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of
> > micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and
> > keep it easy to maintain?
> > > >
> > > > On a boat ith a 200 kilo keel, foam in the bow well [as designed]
> > is a good idea, I think, but not glued or cast in permanently.
> > > > We have had our Micro on a mooring for two years of sailing
> > seasons, and trailer sailed for a number of years before that, so I
> > have some confidence in the effectiveness of what I describe.
> > > >
> > > > I made a block out of layers of inexpensive house insulating foam,
> > shaped and sized to be a close fit between the chine logs and the
> > underside of the floorboards in the forward well. The whole block was
> > encased in very thin [approximately 3mm] plywood, with glass tape
> > applied externally to make the corner joints of the plywood 'box'. All
> > the plywood and glass does is gives the foam block a durable and
> > easily cleaned surface [it's liberally painted] and a measure of
> > protection against bashes on the corners.
> > > >
> > > > When the boat is at rest on a mooring the foam block is carried
> > clear of the water, but when someone goes forward to work in the well,
> > the foam starts to be submerged, and increases the bow buoyancy. Of
> > course it also reduces the amount of water held in the forewell when
> > sailing.
> > > >
> > > > At the end of the season, or at need, the forewell floor grate can
> > be removed [it locks into cleats so it cannot float or fall out]. The
> > foam block can then be lifted out for inspection. So far so good -
> > zero maintenance, and no sign of deterioration. I can stand on it
> > without concern.
> > > >
> > > > cheers
> > > > Derek
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
Hi, Brian
Thks for the information. This is a very nice micro, nice stern... I will try to contact Marco, but he did his micro before the new regulations come in. Anyways, regulations will be not a problem for my boat anymore, i hope, I did already the worst part of the process. Now the problem is finishing my boat, and get a decent result of my job...
Thanks again
Francisco SMBOE
(slower Micro builder on earth)
Thks for the information. This is a very nice micro, nice stern... I will try to contact Marco, but he did his micro before the new regulations come in. Anyways, regulations will be not a problem for my boat anymore, i hope, I did already the worst part of the process. Now the problem is finishing my boat, and get a decent result of my job...
Thanks again
Francisco SMBOE
(slower Micro builder on earth)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "BrianA" <bawrytr@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Francisco
>
> Having looked into having a home-built boat certified in the EU, I can imagine at least a little of what you are going through. Reading through this string I remembered a guy who built a lovely Micro and launched it in Italy.
>
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/guest/marco.htm
>
> Don't know him, but anybody building a boat like that probably is going to be a good guy. Maybe he could help you with some ideas, as he has certainly more or less gone through the same business.
>
> Cheers, Brian
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "astrolabio68" <astrolabio@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Thanks all for your kind answers, I'm impressed with so much information!
> >
> > Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy!
> >
> > So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2 enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes. In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with this solution.
> > --------
> > I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very expensive and complicate to use and predict!
> >
> > I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of you!
> > --------
> > Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at all, even if I think your reasoning is correct.
> >
> > I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help! Thank you!!!
> > --------
> >
> > I thank you all for your feedback
> >
> > sincerly
> >
> > Francisco
> > micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "alefoot" <dgw@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Francisco
> > > > How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?
> > >
> > > On a boat ith a 200 kilo keel, foam in the bow well [as designed] is a good idea, I think, but not glued or cast in permanently.
> > > We have had our Micro on a mooring for two years of sailing seasons, and trailer sailed for a number of years before that, so I have some confidence in the effectiveness of what I describe.
> > >
> > > I made a block out of layers of inexpensive house insulating foam, shaped and sized to be a close fit between the chine logs and the underside of the floorboards in the forward well. The whole block was encased in very thin [approximately 3mm] plywood, with glass tape applied externally to make the corner joints of the plywood 'box'. All the plywood and glass does is gives the foam block a durable and easily cleaned surface [it's liberally painted] and a measure of protection against bashes on the corners.
> > >
> > > When the boat is at rest on a mooring the foam block is carried clear of the water, but when someone goes forward to work in the well, the foam starts to be submerged, and increases the bow buoyancy. Of course it also reduces the amount of water held in the forewell when sailing.
> > >
> > > At the end of the season, or at need, the forewell floor grate can be removed [it locks into cleats so it cannot float or fall out]. The foam block can then be lifted out for inspection. So far so good - zero maintenance, and no sign of deterioration. I can stand on it without concern.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > > Derek
> > >
> >
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
where's me glasses
Graeme
> But yes, I am an optimist of the worst sort.Point of clarrification: ought not 'worst' be 'best'? Or is that 'optimist' to be read as 'pessimist'? Or is it that a glass at the halfway mark might nevertheless be a large glass? Or that a mark for the worst sort may be higher on a smaller glass for the best for the worst?
where's me glasses
Graeme
I also think that as long as one doesn't use the flotation compartments to store spare anchor chain, parts from the last three engine rebuilds along with spare rigging hardware, your emergency 2 month supply of canned goods and wine, that one will get most of the theoretical floatation out of the space.
It is in any case probably a good idea to empty the spaces as often as possible to help prevent water from being trapped in there and causing mildew or rot.
And if you hole the hull, unless it breaches across the walls of the watertight compartment, the compartment itself will either function as designed, or if the hole is in the compartment itself, it will stop or should at least greatly slow the water ingress into the hull.
The odd thing about Franciscos' deal is that as Martin points out, the Micro has a huge enclosed space in the cabin, and as I recall reading through the EU rules, with the proper watertight hatches and portholes, this space counts as floation. But I was looking at the sections for open boats and so maybe I didn't see or forgot some clause or another.
Cheers, Brian
It is in any case probably a good idea to empty the spaces as often as possible to help prevent water from being trapped in there and causing mildew or rot.
And if you hole the hull, unless it breaches across the walls of the watertight compartment, the compartment itself will either function as designed, or if the hole is in the compartment itself, it will stop or should at least greatly slow the water ingress into the hull.
The odd thing about Franciscos' deal is that as Martin points out, the Micro has a huge enclosed space in the cabin, and as I recall reading through the EU rules, with the proper watertight hatches and portholes, this space counts as floation. But I was looking at the sections for open boats and so maybe I didn't see or forgot some clause or another.
Cheers, Brian
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Martin Roberts <martin.me.roberts@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Having a micro, I would prefer to see some of the flotation chambers
> currently filled with foam - Closed cell insulation blocks, replaced
> with sealed compartments that could be used as storage for things like
> fenders etc. I know the temptation would be to fill them with stuff
> that would not float,, but having them would be useful.
>
> The flotation upfront has taken a bit of a hammering this year as I
> went out in rough seas that came through the open steps and dislodged
> the board holding the foam underneath it. This is obviously not optimal
> as it would float away if I did go over.
>
> I believe that Micro's main flotation would be its cabin which should
> be sealed in bad weather.
>
> Martin
>
> BrianA wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Francisco
> >
> > Having looked into having a home-built boat certified in the EU, I can
> > imagine at least a little of what you are going through. Reading
> > through this string I remembered a guy who built a lovely Micro and
> > launched it in Italy.
> >
> >http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/guest/marco.htm
> > <http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/guest/marco.htm>
> >
> > Don't know him, but anybody building a boat like that probably is
> > going to be a good guy. Maybe he could help you with some ideas, as he
> > has certainly more or less gone through the same business.
> >
> > Cheers, Brian
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "astrolabio68" <astrolabio@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks all for your kind answers, I'm impressed with so much
> > information!
> > >
> > > Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the
> > European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have
> > to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval
> > architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities
> > (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the
> > flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation
> > (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation
> > as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot
> > of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy!
> > >
> > > So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2
> > enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches
> > diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes.
> > In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have
> > better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the
> > planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with
> > this solution.
> > > --------
> > > I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured
> > in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very
> > expensive and complicate to use and predict!
> > >
> > > I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here
> > below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I
> > just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to
> > convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of
> > you!
> > > --------
> > > Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at
> > all, even if I think your reasoning is correct.
> > >
> > > I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's
> > pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front
> > of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is
> > unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help!
> > Thank you!!!
> > > --------
> > >
> > > I thank you all for your feedback
> > >
> > > sincerly
> > >
> > > Francisco
> > > micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "alefoot" <dgw@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Francisco
> > > > > How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of
> > micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and
> > keep it easy to maintain?
> > > >
> > > > On a boat ith a 200 kilo keel, foam in the bow well [as designed]
> > is a good idea, I think, but not glued or cast in permanently.
> > > > We have had our Micro on a mooring for two years of sailing
> > seasons, and trailer sailed for a number of years before that, so I
> > have some confidence in the effectiveness of what I describe.
> > > >
> > > > I made a block out of layers of inexpensive house insulating foam,
> > shaped and sized to be a close fit between the chine logs and the
> > underside of the floorboards in the forward well. The whole block was
> > encased in very thin [approximately 3mm] plywood, with glass tape
> > applied externally to make the corner joints of the plywood 'box'. All
> > the plywood and glass does is gives the foam block a durable and
> > easily cleaned surface [it's liberally painted] and a measure of
> > protection against bashes on the corners.
> > > >
> > > > When the boat is at rest on a mooring the foam block is carried
> > clear of the water, but when someone goes forward to work in the well,
> > the foam starts to be submerged, and increases the bow buoyancy. Of
> > course it also reduces the amount of water held in the forewell when
> > sailing.
> > > >
> > > > At the end of the season, or at need, the forewell floor grate can
> > be removed [it locks into cleats so it cannot float or fall out]. The
> > foam block can then be lifted out for inspection. So far so good -
> > zero maintenance, and no sign of deterioration. I can stand on it
> > without concern.
> > > >
> > > > cheers
> > > > Derek
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
It's nice to be disagreed with by such a fine neighbour from the South!
I dare say however, that if and when one ever gets their boat sliced in 2 by some fool in a speeding 30' cigarette boat, you will have a whole lot more going on than wondering if your boat is going to float.Leave that for the Boston Whaler crowds and just wear a life jacket. Who purposely goes out sailing in the fog anyway?? :D:D
Sincerely,
Peter, the neighbour from the North of you..........
I dare say however, that if and when one ever gets their boat sliced in 2 by some fool in a speeding 30' cigarette boat, you will have a whole lot more going on than wondering if your boat is going to float.Leave that for the Boston Whaler crowds and just wear a life jacket. Who purposely goes out sailing in the fog anyway?? :D:D
Sincerely,
Peter, the neighbour from the North of you..........
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
>
> I need to disagree with my neighbor to the north.
>
> While extra storage for the required libations is essential, those who sail in the fog encrusted, powerboat ridden waters of southern New England will enjoy the security of knowing that when the 30' cigarette boat slices through your nicely crafted hull leaving you with two boat halves instead of one, you will be thankful for the foam thatyou installed so carefully is doing it's intended job. Perhaps the powerboat will turn around and pluck you from the waters prior to being mistaken for a seal by our recent arrivals off Chatham.
>
> to make up for lost space, you could tow a covered Cartopper.
> You could even pack the dinghy with dry ice prior to departure and cover with a tied down space blanket. ;-)
>
> Happy building, stay dry
>
>
> David Jost
>
Gene,
I'm a bad,bad,boy for having written such reckless stuff and should be not allowed to post at all! Besides, Bruce Hallman brings up this business of just barely floating logs which break away from the coral.Logs-gone-bad, just like me :D Regional differences.
I do however wear my seatbelt since it is an expensive ticket if caught without one. Otherwise no shelter from death for me! I even have a nice pair of safety sandals I use when working on the boat with all toes exposed.It only took a few times of dropping a tool and piece of wood on them to develope a heightened sense of where my feet were at all times.Pretty much the way a tight-rope walk developes a keen dexterity and relationship between his feet and the rope.
But yes, I am an optimist of the worst sort. So bad in fact that even when things go a bit south I feel good and rejoice in the opportunity to learn something new. Having but two functioning neurons goes a long way in keeping me happy with little :D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, not encouraging anyone to follow my reckless,irrespondsible words at all.............
I'm a bad,bad,boy for having written such reckless stuff and should be not allowed to post at all! Besides, Bruce Hallman brings up this business of just barely floating logs which break away from the coral.Logs-gone-bad, just like me :D Regional differences.
I do however wear my seatbelt since it is an expensive ticket if caught without one. Otherwise no shelter from death for me! I even have a nice pair of safety sandals I use when working on the boat with all toes exposed.It only took a few times of dropping a tool and piece of wood on them to develope a heightened sense of where my feet were at all times.Pretty much the way a tight-rope walk developes a keen dexterity and relationship between his feet and the rope.
But yes, I am an optimist of the worst sort. So bad in fact that even when things go a bit south I feel good and rejoice in the opportunity to learn something new. Having but two functioning neurons goes a long way in keeping me happy with little :D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, not encouraging anyone to follow my reckless,irrespondsible words at all.............
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Gene Tehansky <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
> What are you saying, OMG!!! You don't wear seatbelts? You never
> bought a bike helmet?
>
> After the shock wore off I thought about it. Your policy agrees with
> 99% of all larger sail boats out there, does it not? Well, in truth,
> 99 % of commercial boats also. And a fair percentage of the smaller
> stuff too...
>
> Now, my theory, being a pessimist, is to make some more flotation on
> my Micro Navigator, probably under the bunks. Being a pessimist I go
> through life always pleasantly surprised by how things work out. It
> must be very depressing as an optimist when the best you can get is
> what you expected. Usually things turn out worse than you expect.
> Pessimism, truly a way of life! 8^D
>
> I also suggest that your post be censored. Little children should not
> be allowed to read it. :)
>
> Sincerely,
> Gene T.
Hi,
Having a micro, I would prefer to see some of the flotation chambers
currently filled with foam - Closed cell insulation blocks, replaced
with sealed compartments that could be used as storage for things like
fenders etc. I know the temptation would be to fill them with stuff
that would not float,, but having them would be useful.
The flotation upfront has taken a bit of a hammering this year as I
went out in rough seas that came through the open steps and dislodged
the board holding the foam underneath it. This is obviously not optimal
as it would float away if I did go over.
I believe that Micro's main flotation would be its cabin which should
be sealed in bad weather.
Martin
BrianA wrote:
Having a micro, I would prefer to see some of the flotation chambers
currently filled with foam - Closed cell insulation blocks, replaced
with sealed compartments that could be used as storage for things like
fenders etc. I know the temptation would be to fill them with stuff
that would not float,, but having them would be useful.
The flotation upfront has taken a bit of a hammering this year as I
went out in rough seas that came through the open steps and dislodged
the board holding the foam underneath it. This is obviously not optimal
as it would float away if I did go over.
I believe that Micro's main flotation would be its cabin which should
be sealed in bad weather.
Martin
BrianA wrote:
>
>
> Hi Francisco
>
> Having looked into having a home-built boat certified in the EU, I can
> imagine at least a little of what you are going through. Reading
> through this string I remembered a guy who built a lovely Micro and
> launched it in Italy.
>
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/guest/marco.htm
> <http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/guest/marco.htm>
>
> Don't know him, but anybody building a boat like that probably is
> going to be a good guy. Maybe he could help you with some ideas, as he
> has certainly more or less gone through the same business.
>
> Cheers, Brian
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "astrolabio68" <astrolabio@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Thanks all for your kind answers, I'm impressed with so much
> information!
> >
> > Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the
> European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have
> to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval
> architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities
> (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the
> flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation
> (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation
> as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot
> of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy!
> >
> > So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2
> enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches
> diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes.
> In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have
> better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the
> planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with
> this solution.
> > --------
> > I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured
> in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very
> expensive and complicate to use and predict!
> >
> > I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here
> below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I
> just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to
> convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of
> you!
> > --------
> > Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at
> all, even if I think your reasoning is correct.
> >
> > I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's
> pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front
> of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is
> unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help!
> Thank you!!!
> > --------
> >
> > I thank you all for your feedback
> >
> > sincerly
> >
> > Francisco
> > micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "alefoot" <dgw@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Francisco
> > > > How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of
> micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and
> keep it easy to maintain?
> > >
> > > On a boat ith a 200 kilo keel, foam in the bow well [as designed]
> is a good idea, I think, but not glued or cast in permanently.
> > > We have had our Micro on a mooring for two years of sailing
> seasons, and trailer sailed for a number of years before that, so I
> have some confidence in the effectiveness of what I describe.
> > >
> > > I made a block out of layers of inexpensive house insulating foam,
> shaped and sized to be a close fit between the chine logs and the
> underside of the floorboards in the forward well. The whole block was
> encased in very thin [approximately 3mm] plywood, with glass tape
> applied externally to make the corner joints of the plywood 'box'. All
> the plywood and glass does is gives the foam block a durable and
> easily cleaned surface [it's liberally painted] and a measure of
> protection against bashes on the corners.
> > >
> > > When the boat is at rest on a mooring the foam block is carried
> clear of the water, but when someone goes forward to work in the well,
> the foam starts to be submerged, and increases the bow buoyancy. Of
> course it also reduces the amount of water held in the forewell when
> sailing.
> > >
> > > At the end of the season, or at need, the forewell floor grate can
> be removed [it locks into cleats so it cannot float or fall out]. The
> foam block can then be lifted out for inspection. So far so good -
> zero maintenance, and no sign of deterioration. I can stand on it
> without concern.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > > Derek
> > >
> >
>
>
I found that the critters like chomping noodles and that
beadboard gets left alone in the same application, boats stored the same. I
stuffed the bow of JuneBug with noodles to get out on the water when I didn't
want to wait a couple of days to make the trip to buy beadboard. By the end of
the summer the noodles were chewed up. It would be okay inside Micro but I would
not use noodles again for anything where they are exposed to
nature.
MylesJ
Hi Francisco
Having looked into having a home-built boat certified in the EU, I can imagine at least a little of what you are going through. Reading through this string I remembered a guy who built a lovely Micro and launched it in Italy.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/guest/marco.htm
Don't know him, but anybody building a boat like that probably is going to be a good guy. Maybe he could help you with some ideas, as he has certainly more or less gone through the same business.
Cheers, Brian
Having looked into having a home-built boat certified in the EU, I can imagine at least a little of what you are going through. Reading through this string I remembered a guy who built a lovely Micro and launched it in Italy.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/guest/marco.htm
Don't know him, but anybody building a boat like that probably is going to be a good guy. Maybe he could help you with some ideas, as he has certainly more or less gone through the same business.
Cheers, Brian
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "astrolabio68" <astrolabio@...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks all for your kind answers, I'm impressed with so much information!
>
> Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy!
>
> So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2 enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes. In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with this solution.
> --------
> I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very expensive and complicate to use and predict!
>
> I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of you!
> --------
> Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at all, even if I think your reasoning is correct.
>
> I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help! Thank you!!!
> --------
>
> I thank you all for your feedback
>
> sincerly
>
> Francisco
> micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "alefoot" <dgw@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Francisco
> > > How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?
> >
> > On a boat ith a 200 kilo keel, foam in the bow well [as designed] is a good idea, I think, but not glued or cast in permanently.
> > We have had our Micro on a mooring for two years of sailing seasons, and trailer sailed for a number of years before that, so I have some confidence in the effectiveness of what I describe.
> >
> > I made a block out of layers of inexpensive house insulating foam, shaped and sized to be a close fit between the chine logs and the underside of the floorboards in the forward well. The whole block was encased in very thin [approximately 3mm] plywood, with glass tape applied externally to make the corner joints of the plywood 'box'. All the plywood and glass does is gives the foam block a durable and easily cleaned surface [it's liberally painted] and a measure of protection against bashes on the corners.
> >
> > When the boat is at rest on a mooring the foam block is carried clear of the water, but when someone goes forward to work in the well, the foam starts to be submerged, and increases the bow buoyancy. Of course it also reduces the amount of water held in the forewell when sailing.
> >
> > At the end of the season, or at need, the forewell floor grate can be removed [it locks into cleats so it cannot float or fall out]. The foam block can then be lifted out for inspection. So far so good - zero maintenance, and no sign of deterioration. I can stand on it without concern.
> >
> > cheers
> > Derek
> >
>
The hole I put in Esther Mae occurred at about 2 mph. Water still poured in and we had to get the boat off the piling. Thankfully it was shallow (3’-4’).
~Caloosarat
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfBruce
Hallman
Sent:Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:16 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Micro flotation foam
really really hard onto some rocks.> Moreover, the only way to put a serious hole in the boat is to crash
This is probably a regional thing. My Washington/British
Columbia/Alaska experience include the perils of 'dead heads',
semi-submerged logs waiting to poke holes into your hull, and these
are not just a shallow water hazard. After a log escapes from a log
raft it gradually becomes waterlogged. Inevitable one end begins to
sink before the other and they become very difficult to see,
especially at night. These hazards float around vertically in the
water, a massive sharp object waiting to poke holes in hulls.
To get some additional ideas on floatation, see:
SAFETY STANDARDS FOR BACKYARD BOAT BUILDERS COMDTPUB P16761.3B 2 SUMMER 1993 2
U.S. Department of Transportation
United States Coast Guard
U.S. Department Commandant Washington, DC 20593-0001
Of Transportation United States Coast Guard Staff Symbol: (G-NAB-6)
Phone (2021) 267-0981
United States
Coast Guard
to quote:
FOREWORD
This pamphlet, “SAFETY STANDARDS FOR BACKYARD BOAT BUILDERS,” (COMTDPUB P16761.3B), is a simplified explanation of Federal recreational boat construction requirements and is intended for the use of the non-professional, individual builder. The primary objective of these requirements is to avoid certain safety hazards which have been found to be the cause of boating accidents.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Roger
On Oct 7, 2009, at 9:19 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:Francisco,
I am curious to know something. Did your Naval Architect allow any floatation value for the materials of construction? In many cases, a swamped wooden boat will float. In these cases, the foam serves two purposes, one to hold the boat upright (the foam needs to be placed above CofG) and two to lift the gunwales above water to allow bailing. In the case of a ballasted keel, there should still be some credit for the wood.
I have to agree with David Jost about the need for positive buoyancy. Calculating the likelihood of a sinking is the same as refusing to wear seatbelts because you are a safe driver. It doesn't allow for outside influences beyond your control and when you are forced to change your reasoning it is often too late.
Another issue is that if you fill what would be a void space with cargo, you can overload the boat and make swamping more likely. This is why commercial ships have plimsuoll marks.
V/R
Chris
astrolabio68 wrote:Thanks all for your kind answers, I'm impressed with so much information! Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy! So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2 enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes. In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with this solution. -------- I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very expensive and complicate to use and predict! I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of you! -------- Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at all, even if I think your reasoning is correct. I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help! Thank you!!! -------- I thank you all for your feedback sincerly Francisco micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
Cris,
You are right! He used the fiberglass boats formula to calculate the need of flotation. That's why the final result is not as it should be... But when he gave me the proyect, this was already presented to the authorities...
So, he suggested to use the enclosed space below the berths as extra flotation. That's just to be closer to the wrong calculated flotation volume. I assume I don't need this extra air, but is not bad to have it, even if I will miss some stowage space...
But, as you say, one fact that I didn't realized before, is that the localization of the flotation respect to the CofG is far from ideal, possibly in the same high of the CofG, but I hope that a swamped Micro will float upright due to his keel...
I don't know, anybody has any idea about how will float a swamped Micro with the planned flotation fore and aft, plus flotation under berths? May be I have to kill a Naval Architect...
sincerly
Francisco
micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
You are right! He used the fiberglass boats formula to calculate the need of flotation. That's why the final result is not as it should be... But when he gave me the proyect, this was already presented to the authorities...
So, he suggested to use the enclosed space below the berths as extra flotation. That's just to be closer to the wrong calculated flotation volume. I assume I don't need this extra air, but is not bad to have it, even if I will miss some stowage space...
But, as you say, one fact that I didn't realized before, is that the localization of the flotation respect to the CofG is far from ideal, possibly in the same high of the CofG, but I hope that a swamped Micro will float upright due to his keel...
I don't know, anybody has any idea about how will float a swamped Micro with the planned flotation fore and aft, plus flotation under berths? May be I have to kill a Naval Architect...
sincerly
Francisco
micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...> wrote:
>
> Francisco,
>
> I am curious to know something. Did your Naval Architect allow any
> floatation value for the materials of construction? In many cases, a
> swamped wooden boat will float. In these cases, the foam serves two
> purposes, one to hold the boat upright (the foam needs to be placed
> above CofG) and two to lift the gunwales above water to allow bailing.
> In the case of a ballasted keel, there should still be some credit for
> the wood.
>
> I have to agree with David Jost about the need for positive buoyancy.
> Calculating the likelihood of a sinking is the same as refusing to wear
> seatbelts because you are a safe driver. It doesn't allow for outside
> influences beyond your control and when you are forced to change your
> reasoning it is often too late.
>
> Another issue is that if you fill what would be a void space with cargo,
> you can overload the boat and make swamping more likely. This is why
> commercial ships have plimsuoll marks.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> astrolabio68 wrote:
> > Thanks all for your kind answers, I'm impressed with so much information!
> >
> > Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy!
> >
> > So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2 enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes. In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with this solution.
> > --------
> > I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very expensive and complicate to use and predict!
> >
> > I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of you!
> > --------
> > Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at all, even if I think your reasoning is correct.
> >
> > I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help! Thank you!!!
> > --------
> >
> > I thank you all for your feedback
> >
> > sincerly
> >
> > Francisco
> > micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
> >
> >
> >
>
> Moreover, the only way to put a serious hole in the boat is to crash really really hard onto some rocks.This is probably a regional thing. My Washington/British
Columbia/Alaska experience include the perils of 'dead heads',
semi-submerged logs waiting to poke holes into your hull, and these
are not just a shallow water hazard. After a log escapes from a log
raft it gradually becomes waterlogged. Inevitable one end begins to
sink before the other and they become very difficult to see,
especially at night. These hazards float around vertically in the
water, a massive sharp object waiting to poke holes in hulls.
Robin Jean, (IMO a later development of the Topaz hull family), also has high placed foam and lots of flotation in the stern area to keep the outboard powerhead dry. This is touted as a 'bring 'em home alive' fishing boat that should survive even a hull penetration and flooding and still limp home.
I remember a comment from PB&F about cladding the exterior of Loose Moose or one of the other larger ASxx boats with foam for insulation and flotation. Seems like after the foam is on, one would need to add a layer of thin ply (5mm?) to provide some mechanical protection. I would guess one would not take the cladding all the way to the chine, adding 4" plus to the beam.
Although not foam, Bolger also made big changes to Martha Jane to reduce the opportunity for full capsize.
Don
I remember a comment from PB&F about cladding the exterior of Loose Moose or one of the other larger ASxx boats with foam for insulation and flotation. Seems like after the foam is on, one would need to add a layer of thin ply (5mm?) to provide some mechanical protection. I would guess one would not take the cladding all the way to the chine, adding 4" plus to the beam.
Although not foam, Bolger also made big changes to Martha Jane to reduce the opportunity for full capsize.
Don
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> > Phil told me at Mystic in 2007 that he would like to see more flotation than is shown in the Micro's plans. I think he was suggesting foam high up, perhaps behind sloping backrests around the cockpit, or on the upper sides of the stern well.
>
>
> Interestingly, it was just about this time in 2007 that Phil Bolger
> put in the extra buoyancy high up to the Topaz Spyder design, located
> behind sloping backrests.
>
Peter,
What are you saying, OMG!!! You don't wear seatbelts? You never bought a bike helmet?
After the shock wore off I thought about it. Your policy agrees with 99% of all larger sail boats out there, does it not? Well, in truth, 99 % of commercial boats also. And a fair percentage of the smaller stuff too...
Now, my theory, being a pessimist, is to make some more flotation on my Micro Navigator, probably under the bunks. Being a pessimist I go through life always pleasantly surprised by how things work out. It must be very depressing as an optimist when the best you can get is what you expected. Usually things turn out worse than you expect. Pessimism, truly a way of life! 8^D
I also suggest that your post be censored. Little children should not be allowed to read it. :)
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 7 Oct, 2009, at 3:14 AM, ellengaestboatbuildingcom wrote:
Hi Francisco,
Foam floatation is really really nice to have if you are sinking.However, what are your chances of sinking?
When I built my Micro, I opted for maximum storage volume over floatation based on the simple idea which went something like this: I know I have no floatation, I know the boat will sink if it fills with water therefore don't allow the boat to fill with water and it will not sink! I like to think of it as personal respondsibility :D
Moreover, the only way to put a serious hole in the boat is to crash really really hard onto some rocks.If you happen to do that, with leass than a 24" draft, your boat will NOT SINK VERY FAR. That is, you will be able to step out onto the rocks into some rather shallow water :D
Beyond that, the Micro has a rather sedate sailing/motoring speed thus there is little chance that you will get holed by speeding rapidily into a floating log,deadhead, container etc. In fact, the boat operates at speeds ideally suited for spotting any sort of on the water hazards long before you get to them thus you have time to manouver around them. :D
Just to keep things fun, I would finally add you should always have a chart of your sailing waters, know how to read it properly and practice good seamanship whenever out on the water.
So, back to my original question,what are your chances of sinking? Besides, all that space not filled with foam is great for bringing lots of stuff for cruises, like some extra wine........ ......... :D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, ex builder/owner of Micro LESTAT and a devote non-swimmmer.
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "astrolabio68" <astrolabio@ ...> wrote:
> Sorry if this was discussed before, but I have a concern about the flotation foam in my still-not-finish- micro "Astrolabio"
> Any experiences will be welcome.
> Francisco
> micro "Astrolabio" in Barcelona, Spain
Francisco,
I am curious to know something. Did your Naval Architect allow any floatation value for the materials of construction? In many cases, a swamped wooden boat will float. In these cases, the foam serves two purposes, one to hold the boat upright (the foam needs to be placed above CofG) and two to lift the gunwales above water to allow bailing. In the case of a ballasted keel, there should still be some credit for the wood.
I have to agree with David Jost about the need for positive buoyancy. Calculating the likelihood of a sinking is the same as refusing to wear seatbelts because you are a safe driver. It doesn't allow for outside influences beyond your control and when you are forced to change your reasoning it is often too late.
Another issue is that if you fill what would be a void space with cargo, you can overload the boat and make swamping more likely. This is why commercial ships have plimsuoll marks.
V/R
Chris
astrolabio68 wrote:
I am curious to know something. Did your Naval Architect allow any floatation value for the materials of construction? In many cases, a swamped wooden boat will float. In these cases, the foam serves two purposes, one to hold the boat upright (the foam needs to be placed above CofG) and two to lift the gunwales above water to allow bailing. In the case of a ballasted keel, there should still be some credit for the wood.
I have to agree with David Jost about the need for positive buoyancy. Calculating the likelihood of a sinking is the same as refusing to wear seatbelts because you are a safe driver. It doesn't allow for outside influences beyond your control and when you are forced to change your reasoning it is often too late.
Another issue is that if you fill what would be a void space with cargo, you can overload the boat and make swamping more likely. This is why commercial ships have plimsuoll marks.
V/R
Chris
astrolabio68 wrote:
Thanks all for your kind answers, I'm impressed with so much information! Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy! So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2 enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes. In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with this solution. -------- I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very expensive and complicate to use and predict! I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of you! -------- Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at all, even if I think your reasoning is correct. I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help! Thank you!!! -------- I thank you all for your feedback sincerly Francisco micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
I need to disagree with my neighbor to the north.
While extra storage for the required libations is essential, those who sail in the fog encrusted, powerboat ridden waters of southern New England will enjoy the security of knowing that when the 30' cigarette boat slices through your nicely crafted hull leaving you with two boat halves instead of one, you will be thankful for the foam thatyou installed so carefully is doing it's intended job. Perhaps the powerboat will turn around and pluck you from the waters prior to being mistaken for a seal by our recent arrivals off Chatham.
to make up for lost space, you could tow a covered Cartopper.
You could even pack the dinghy with dry ice prior to departure and cover with a tied down space blanket. ;-)
Happy building, stay dry
David Jost
While extra storage for the required libations is essential, those who sail in the fog encrusted, powerboat ridden waters of southern New England will enjoy the security of knowing that when the 30' cigarette boat slices through your nicely crafted hull leaving you with two boat halves instead of one, you will be thankful for the foam thatyou installed so carefully is doing it's intended job. Perhaps the powerboat will turn around and pluck you from the waters prior to being mistaken for a seal by our recent arrivals off Chatham.
to make up for lost space, you could tow a covered Cartopper.
You could even pack the dinghy with dry ice prior to departure and cover with a tied down space blanket. ;-)
Happy building, stay dry
David Jost
Thanks all for your kind answers, I'm impressed with so much information!
Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy!
So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2 enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes. In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with this solution.
--------
I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very expensive and complicate to use and predict!
I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of you!
--------
Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at all, even if I think your reasoning is correct.
I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help! Thank you!!!
--------
I thank you all for your feedback
sincerly
Francisco
micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
Loads of ideas to think about... but sadly, I have to deal with the European Community and with his regulations. That means, that I have to use mainly foam, and I need a lot of volume. I hired a naval architect to make a project in order to present it to the authorities (is the only way to go here), and he has calculated about 4 times the flotation planned by Bolger! I know he did not the correct calculation (he later accept this to me), but now I have to put as much flotation as possible, cause recalculate and presenting the plans again is a lot of bureaucracy, and I hate bureaucracy!
So, I decided to use foam bow and astern as per plans, and 2 enclosed volumes (just air) below the berths. I put two 8 inches diameter waterproof hatches for inspection and ventilation purposes. In a near future, if needed, I plan to put bigger hatches, to have better access to store some clothes in. I know this is not 4 times the planned flotation, but I hope the naval inspector will be happy with this solution.
--------
I like the idea of using Styrofoam insted of two components poured in place. I have maked some experiments with the last, and it's very expensive and complicate to use and predict!
I'm thinking seriously to use Derek's idea (message nº 61629 here below), styrofoam in a thin plywood box than can be taken apart. I just have to think in a way of keeping this safely in place. I have to convince me and... the inspector again! Thanks Derek and thanks all of you!
--------
Sorry Peter, as you see, I can't consider not puting flotation at all, even if I think your reasoning is correct.
I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that L'estat's pictures inspired me in many ways. When you see a lot of work in front of you to finish your boat, when you think that may be your dream is unachievable, pictures of a nice boat like yours are of great help! Thank you!!!
--------
I thank you all for your feedback
sincerly
Francisco
micro "Astrolabio" 86-87% ready in Barcelona, Spain
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "alefoot" <dgw@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Francisco
> > How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?
>
> On a boat ith a 200 kilo keel, foam in the bow well [as designed] is a good idea, I think, but not glued or cast in permanently.
> We have had our Micro on a mooring for two years of sailing seasons, and trailer sailed for a number of years before that, so I have some confidence in the effectiveness of what I describe.
>
> I made a block out of layers of inexpensive house insulating foam, shaped and sized to be a close fit between the chine logs and the underside of the floorboards in the forward well. The whole block was encased in very thin [approximately 3mm] plywood, with glass tape applied externally to make the corner joints of the plywood 'box'. All the plywood and glass does is gives the foam block a durable and easily cleaned surface [it's liberally painted] and a measure of protection against bashes on the corners.
>
> When the boat is at rest on a mooring the foam block is carried clear of the water, but when someone goes forward to work in the well, the foam starts to be submerged, and increases the bow buoyancy. Of course it also reduces the amount of water held in the forewell when sailing.
>
> At the end of the season, or at need, the forewell floor grate can be removed [it locks into cleats so it cannot float or fall out]. The foam block can then be lifted out for inspection. So far so good - zero maintenance, and no sign of deterioration. I can stand on it without concern.
>
> cheers
> Derek
>
Hi Francisco,
Foam floatation is really really nice to have if you are sinking.However, what are your chances of sinking?
When I built my Micro, I opted for maximum storage volume over floatation based on the simple idea which went something like this: I know I have no floatation, I know the boat will sink if it fills with water therefore don't allow the boat to fill with water and it will not sink! I like to think of it as personal respondsibility :D
Moreover, the only way to put a serious hole in the boat is to crash really really hard onto some rocks.If you happen to do that, with leass than a 24" draft, your boat will NOT SINK VERY FAR. That is, you will be able to step out onto the rocks into some rather shallow water :D
Beyond that, the Micro has a rather sedate sailing/motoring speed thus there is little chance that you will get holed by speeding rapidily into a floating log,deadhead,container etc. In fact, the boat operates at speeds ideally suited for spotting any sort of on the water hazards long before you get to them thus you have time to manouver around them. :D
Just to keep things fun, I would finally add you should always have a chart of your sailing waters, know how to read it properly and practice good seamanship whenever out on the water.
So, back to my original question,what are your chances of sinking? Besides, all that space not filled with foam is great for bringing lots of stuff for cruises, like some extra wine.................:D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, ex builder/owner of Micro LESTAT and a devote non-swimmmer.
Foam floatation is really really nice to have if you are sinking.However, what are your chances of sinking?
When I built my Micro, I opted for maximum storage volume over floatation based on the simple idea which went something like this: I know I have no floatation, I know the boat will sink if it fills with water therefore don't allow the boat to fill with water and it will not sink! I like to think of it as personal respondsibility :D
Moreover, the only way to put a serious hole in the boat is to crash really really hard onto some rocks.If you happen to do that, with leass than a 24" draft, your boat will NOT SINK VERY FAR. That is, you will be able to step out onto the rocks into some rather shallow water :D
Beyond that, the Micro has a rather sedate sailing/motoring speed thus there is little chance that you will get holed by speeding rapidily into a floating log,deadhead,container etc. In fact, the boat operates at speeds ideally suited for spotting any sort of on the water hazards long before you get to them thus you have time to manouver around them. :D
Just to keep things fun, I would finally add you should always have a chart of your sailing waters, know how to read it properly and practice good seamanship whenever out on the water.
So, back to my original question,what are your chances of sinking? Besides, all that space not filled with foam is great for bringing lots of stuff for cruises, like some extra wine.................:D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, ex builder/owner of Micro LESTAT and a devote non-swimmmer.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "astrolabio68" <astrolabio@...> wrote:
> Sorry if this was discussed before, but I have a concern about the flotation foam in my still-not-finish-micro "Astrolabio"
> Any experiences will be welcome.
> Francisco
> micro "Astrolabio" in Barcelona, Spain
>Yes. I have in the flotation chambers of my Michalak Piccup Pram. They last for years and years without loosing air pressure. Filling the flotation chambers with them keeps them in place. I'm not sure how to corral them if you just have a space that isn't totally enclosed. Maybe inside a tied down duffle bag?
> Finally, has anyone ever used the "balloons" from the bag-in-box wine containers for boat flotation? They seem pretty robust.
Reed
Ventura, CA
What's wrong with the almost midships foam flotation placement as shown for WISH II? The two blocks, one either side, would fit under the cockpit deck, out of the way mostly - Micro's berths mean some adjustment for foot space. The thing is, unless you're a giant, the bow well is then free from the waist down for the bucket!
Graeme
____/)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Graeme
____/)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
10 cubic foot is easy. Two 4'x8'x2" sheets of rigid
beadboard. Slice that up to fit the contents of 1 board on each side of the
hold. Mine is in there loose, spaced off the sides and bottom.
MylesJ
Francisco,
What I did on my Micro was to fill the space below the
standing platform with 1 gallon milk bottles with the tops hot glued. The
translucent milk jugs won't last long. The opaque ones are what you want for
this purpose.
I'm considering doing a conversion to tabernacle and
making another hatch at the front of the cabin, so no more climbing across the
cabin roof. If I do that I will make an air box that fills most of that area. Be
sure to leave a foot or so below anything solid. This is to keep the function of
the free flooding well. You may not notice the difference without a load but if
you are heavy for a long trip or have 6 people aboard, Micro will settle down
and be less corky with the flooded wells.
MylesJ
reuben---11:20. I mo have a bite then take trailer
and camera up to Greylock. If you want to come here and go over to Spengler's
jointly, I should be back in time. Dad
Someone else mentioned plastic soda bottles. Smaller and available to some
would be ping-pong balls (either loose or wrapped in plastic bags), which could
also help to fill voids between larger foam blocks or other items.
would be ping-pong balls (either loose or wrapped in plastic bags), which could
also help to fill voids between larger foam blocks or other items.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimbro, Ray (N-SAIC)" <ray.kimbro@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 7:51 AM
Folks - something I've done for several small boats (I hate spray foam and the
little foam turds you get when blocks disintegrate) is to stuff swimming pool
noodles in various places for added flotation. They're cheap, conform to just
about ANY space, don't soak up much water, and don't quickly disintegrate.
Folks – something I’ve done for several small boats (I hate spray foam and the little foam turds you get when blocks disintegrate) is to stuff swimming pool noodles in various places for added flotation. They’re cheap, conform to just about ANY space, don’t soak up much water, and don’t quickly disintegrate.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfBruce Hallman
Sent:Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:48 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Micro flotation foam
see more flotation than is shown in the Micro's plans. I think he was suggesting foam high up, perhaps behind sloping backrests around the cockpit, or on the upper sides of the stern well.> Phil told me at Mystic in 2007 that he would like to
Interestingly, it was just about this time in 2007 that Phil Bolger
put in the extra buoyancy high up to the Topaz Spyder design, located
behind sloping backrests.
> Phil told me at Mystic in 2007 that he would like to see more flotation than is shown in the Micro's plans. I think he was suggesting foam high up, perhaps behind sloping backrests around the cockpit, or on the upper sides of the stern well.Interestingly, it was just about this time in 2007 that Phil Bolger
put in the extra buoyancy high up to the Topaz Spyder design, located
behind sloping backrests.
Paint the insides of the area in which you will be putting foam with a penetrating epoxy. Put epoxy fillets along the bottom and side joints. Once all is dry, pour in foam, level with top of side walls, add top.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "astrolabio68" <astrolabio@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry if this was discussed before, but I have a concern about the flotation foam in my still-not-finish-micro "Astrolabio"
>
> How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?
>
> If I let the foam expand in the bow, then it is impossible to take it out to make some maintenance, and, when I get some water between the foam and the paint, it will be very difficult to dry it... Ok, i have drain holes in the bottom, but a little water will stay anyways.
>
> I was thinking in make a watertight section, keeping the foam dry, but I'm not very happy with the idea of a box with no air renovation... I can think in a system to get some air inside this box, but I don't think it will be enough to do the job.
>
> I was considering some more ideas, but I don't like any of them.
>
> Any experiences will be welcome.
>
>
> Thanks a lot for your time, and sorry for my english!
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have to say that I had a profund impact when I knew Phil's death. I really admire his work, and respect the person. Now, the only way I know to make a tribute to him, is work stronger in my/his boat.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Best wishes to all
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Francisco
>
> micro "Astrolabio" in Barcelona, Spain
>
My Micro has fitted pieces of rigid foam, 2 inches
thick, in the bow well, and I have taken them out for work on the mast step and
replaced them, trying to fit in more. I think this is about the best solution
for drainage and ventilation, but you lose a serious amount of the
potential volume unless you are very thorough about fitting the foam, perhaps
using 1" foam or a hot wire to cut thin tapers. With 2" foam, none of it
taperred in thickness, there's room for a lot of water.
It would be good, for ultimate
safety, to panel the bulkhead and sides of the well with rigid foam behind
thin plywood, well drained. It would only come into play when the boat was
swamped, but then it would be terrifically valuable.
Phil told me at Mystic in 2007
that he would like to see more flotation than is shown in the Micro's plans. I
think he was suggesting foam high up, perhaps behind sloping backrests around
the cockpit, or on the upper sides of the stern well.
We need 7 cubic feet
of flotation just to buoy that ballast keel, and another few feet for the
motor and people and other stuff. How many Micros really have that much, I
wonder. ---Mason
Good notes on an important topic. Loath as any cruiser is to surrender dry storage space, the foam volume Phil specified fore & aft is an essential element of Micro's seaworthiness. In a knock-down, such as the one described by Bernie Wolfard in one of Elrow LaRowe's early Micro newsletters, which occurred on the windy Columbia River gorge, foam could be the difference between being able to bail out and sail home or needing S.O.S. rescue with your hull awash to the gunwales and your crew (and captain) hypothermic. So even without suffering a through-hull hole, flotation will give you peace of mind.
I also think PET (#1) plastic bottles should last well, dry & out of the sunlight, but they do degrade. Read about the difficulties they had on the Plastiki, a balsa-type raft made of big nets of sealed bottles sailing from California to Hawaii. They also made the mistake of not gluing the caps closed--the wave action caused lots of the caps to come off.
Finally, has anyone ever used the "balloons" from the bag-in-box wine containers for boat flotation? They seem pretty robust.--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
I also think PET (#1) plastic bottles should last well, dry & out of the sunlight, but they do degrade. Read about the difficulties they had on the Plastiki, a balsa-type raft made of big nets of sealed bottles sailing from California to Hawaii. They also made the mistake of not gluing the caps closed--the wave action caused lots of the caps to come off.
Finally, has anyone ever used the "balloons" from the bag-in-box wine containers for boat flotation? They seem pretty robust.--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Gene Tehansky
> <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > My plans show bow and stern.
>
> Yes, bow and stern, as the major thing needing flotation in the event
> of a through hull hole is the 420 lbs of lead in the keel amidships.
>
> In my Micro I used the white expanded polystyrene, bought in 2" thick
> sheets from Home Depot. It was considerably cheaper than the poured
> type of foam which is frighteningly expensive. On my Topaz I used
> similar Home Depot sheet foam for the flotation chambers which were
> rectangular. Though for the filling of the curvy spaces in the
> forefoot defined by the twisted panels, there I filled up the space as
> much as possible with sealed empty plastic milk and soda bottles, and
> then I poured in the expanding foam which encased the bottles.
>
> Based on the advice of Sam Glasscock, (if I remember correct) I added
> some tiny holes up high to provide atmospheric pressure adjustment to
> those sealed chambers. This is actually important, as you can
> actually see the effect of the flow of air as the atmospheric pressure
> changes, while looking at the settled shop dust around the 1/8" vent
> holes.
>
Hi Francisco
We have had our Micro on a mooring for two years of sailing seasons, and trailer sailed for a number of years before that, so I have some confidence in the effectiveness of what I describe.
I made a block out of layers of inexpensive house insulating foam, shaped and sized to be a close fit between the chine logs and the underside of the floorboards in the forward well. The whole block was encased in very thin [approximately 3mm] plywood, with glass tape applied externally to make the corner joints of the plywood 'box'. All the plywood and glass does is gives the foam block a durable and easily cleaned surface [it's liberally painted] and a measure of protection against bashes on the corners.
When the boat is at rest on a mooring the foam block is carried clear of the water, but when someone goes forward to work in the well, the foam starts to be submerged, and increases the bow buoyancy. Of course it also reduces the amount of water held in the forewell when sailing.
At the end of the season, or at need, the forewell floor grate can be removed [it locks into cleats so it cannot float or fall out]. The foam block can then be lifted out for inspection. So far so good - zero maintenance, and no sign of deterioration. I can stand on it without concern.
cheers
Derek
> How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?On a boat ith a 200 kilo keel, foam in the bow well [as designed] is a good idea, I think, but not glued or cast in permanently.
We have had our Micro on a mooring for two years of sailing seasons, and trailer sailed for a number of years before that, so I have some confidence in the effectiveness of what I describe.
I made a block out of layers of inexpensive house insulating foam, shaped and sized to be a close fit between the chine logs and the underside of the floorboards in the forward well. The whole block was encased in very thin [approximately 3mm] plywood, with glass tape applied externally to make the corner joints of the plywood 'box'. All the plywood and glass does is gives the foam block a durable and easily cleaned surface [it's liberally painted] and a measure of protection against bashes on the corners.
When the boat is at rest on a mooring the foam block is carried clear of the water, but when someone goes forward to work in the well, the foam starts to be submerged, and increases the bow buoyancy. Of course it also reduces the amount of water held in the forewell when sailing.
At the end of the season, or at need, the forewell floor grate can be removed [it locks into cleats so it cannot float or fall out]. The foam block can then be lifted out for inspection. So far so good - zero maintenance, and no sign of deterioration. I can stand on it without concern.
cheers
Derek
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Gene Tehansky
<goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
of a through hull hole is the 420 lbs of lead in the keel amidships.
In my Micro I used the white expanded polystyrene, bought in 2" thick
sheets from Home Depot. It was considerably cheaper than the poured
type of foam which is frighteningly expensive. On my Topaz I used
similar Home Depot sheet foam for the flotation chambers which were
rectangular. Though for the filling of the curvy spaces in the
forefoot defined by the twisted panels, there I filled up the space as
much as possible with sealed empty plastic milk and soda bottles, and
then I poured in the expanding foam which encased the bottles.
Based on the advice of Sam Glasscock, (if I remember correct) I added
some tiny holes up high to provide atmospheric pressure adjustment to
those sealed chambers. This is actually important, as you can
actually see the effect of the flow of air as the atmospheric pressure
changes, while looking at the settled shop dust around the 1/8" vent
holes.
<goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
>Yes, bow and stern, as the major thing needing flotation in the event
>
>
> My plans show bow and stern.
of a through hull hole is the 420 lbs of lead in the keel amidships.
In my Micro I used the white expanded polystyrene, bought in 2" thick
sheets from Home Depot. It was considerably cheaper than the poured
type of foam which is frighteningly expensive. On my Topaz I used
similar Home Depot sheet foam for the flotation chambers which were
rectangular. Though for the filling of the curvy spaces in the
forefoot defined by the twisted panels, there I filled up the space as
much as possible with sealed empty plastic milk and soda bottles, and
then I poured in the expanding foam which encased the bottles.
Based on the advice of Sam Glasscock, (if I remember correct) I added
some tiny holes up high to provide atmospheric pressure adjustment to
those sealed chambers. This is actually important, as you can
actually see the effect of the flow of air as the atmospheric pressure
changes, while looking at the settled shop dust around the 1/8" vent
holes.
A problem that could be solved with a shop vac and some new soft drinkbottles? Gets you on the water and is very simple.
~Caloosarat
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfMike
John
Sent:Monday, October 05, 2009 7:01 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Micro flotation foam
I put softdrink bottles in my Waapa. Then I read that they break down eventually, fall to bits and create a real problem.
Mike
My plans show bow and stern. I assumed that was the case here....
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 5 Oct, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Roger M. Derby wrote:
Would you not rather have the flotation aft where it would support the motor (if any)?I would expect the bow to float pretty well without any foam. For the Chebacco, I laminated up two bricks of foam slices, white glue to keep them together, Velcro to hold them in place in the aft storage lockers on either side of the motor well. Just enough volume to float the motor. (It's a wooden boat! It won't sink.)The only time they get wet is when I'm trying to sink, and few hours of life will do fine; after that, hypothermia is the worry.RogerOn Oct 5, 2009, at 5:04 PM, astrolabio68 wrote:Sorry if this was discussed before, but I have a concern about the flotation foam in my still-not-finish- micro "Astrolabio"
How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?
If I let the foam expand in the bow, then it is impossible to take it out to make some maintenance, and, when I get some water between the foam and the paint, it will be very difficult to dry it... Ok, i have drain holes in the bottom, but a little water will stay anyways.
I was thinking in make a watertight section, keeping the foam dry, but I'm not very happy with the idea of a box with no air renovation.. . I can think in a system to get some air inside this box, but I don't think it will be enough to do the job.
I was considering some more ideas, but I don't like any of them.
Any experiences will be welcome.
Thanks a lot for your time, and sorry for my english!
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
I have to say that I had a profund impact when I knew Phil's death. I really admire his work, and respect the person. Now, the only way I know to make a tribute to him, is work stronger in my/his boat.
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
Best wishes to all
Francisco
micro "Astrolabio" in Barcelona, Spain
Would you not rather have the flotation aft where it would support the motor (if any)?
I would expect the bow to float pretty well without any foam. For the Chebacco, I laminated up two bricks of foam slices, white glue to keep them together, Velcro to hold them in place in the aft storage lockers on either side of the motor well. Just enough volume to float the motor. (It's a wooden boat! It won't sink.)
The only time they get wet is when I'm trying to sink, and few hours of life will do fine; after that, hypothermia is the worry.
Roger
On Oct 5, 2009, at 5:04 PM, astrolabio68 wrote:
Sorry if this was discussed before, but I have a concern about the flotation foam in my still-not-finish- micro "Astrolabio"
How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?
If I let the foam expand in the bow, then it is impossible to take it out to make some maintenance, and, when I get some water between the foam and the paint, it will be very difficult to dry it... Ok, i have drain holes in the bottom, but a little water will stay anyways.
I was thinking in make a watertight section, keeping the foam dry, but I'm not very happy with the idea of a box with no air renovation.. . I can think in a system to get some air inside this box, but I don't think it will be enough to do the job.
I was considering some more ideas, but I don't like any of them.
Any experiences will be welcome.
Thanks a lot for your time, and sorry for my english!
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
I have to say that I had a profund impact when I knew Phil's death. I really admire his work, and respect the person. Now, the only way I know to make a tribute to him, is work stronger in my/his boat.
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
Best wishes to all
Francisco
micro "Astrolabio" in Barcelona, Spain
My Micro has no foam flotation at all. I think a better option might be
to insulate the overhead with closed cell foam of choice instead. If
that does not provide enough flotation then consider the upper topsides
interior as well (behind ceilings?). To me this puts the flotation
higher up and also protects the interior from condensation.
Another option is to carry an inflatable mattress, or other inflatable
toy in the hold:-)
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Gene Tehansky <goldranger02-boats@...>
wrote:
to insulate the overhead with closed cell foam of choice instead. If
that does not provide enough flotation then consider the upper topsides
interior as well (behind ceilings?). To me this puts the flotation
higher up and also protects the interior from condensation.
Another option is to carry an inflatable mattress, or other inflatable
toy in the hold:-)
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Gene Tehansky <goldranger02-boats@...>
wrote:
>anyways.
> Francisco,
> I've heard nothing about good about the expandable foam in boats. I
> removed large pieces from a fiberglass boat and found them full of
> water. They were very heavy. Lucky it was not a wood boat. I would
> consider the extruded polystyrene foam used for home insulation.
> Install it so that there is a good air space between it and the wood.
> Also consider empty soft drink bottles. Even if the compartment got a
> hole in it they would still provide flotation. I have this same
> decision to make for my Micro Navigator, but not for some time yet.
> Good luck with your build.
>
> Sincerely,
> Gene T.
>
> On 5 Oct, 2009, at 5:04 PM, astrolabio68 wrote:
>
> > Sorry if this was discussed before, but I have a concern about the
> > flotation foam in my still-not-finish-micro "Astrolabio"
> >
> > How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros?
> > Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep
> > it easy to maintain?
> >
> > If I let the foam expand in the bow, then it is impossible to take
> > it out to make some maintenance, and, when I get some water between
> > the foam and the paint, it will be very difficult to dry it... Ok, i
> > have drain holes in the bottom, but a little water will stay
> >
> > I was thinking in make a watertight section, keeping the foam dry,
> > but I'm not very happy with the idea of a box with no air
> > renovation... I can think in a system to get some air inside this
> > box, but I don't think it will be enough to do the job.
> >
> > I was considering some more ideas, but I don't like any of them.
> >
> > Any experiences will be welcome.
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your time, and sorry for my english!
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I have to say that I had a profund impact when I knew Phil's death.
> > I really admire his work, and respect the person. Now, the only way
> > I know to make a tribute to him, is work stronger in my/his boat.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Best wishes to all
> >
> > Francisco
> >
> > micro "Astrolabio" in Barcelona, Spain
> >
> >
> >
>
Mike,
They break down in sunlight. I bet the time required to break down in the "shade" is way longer. I'd think you should be ok. Set some aside, when they start to go then you know the boat needs work, not until.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 5 Oct, 2009, at 6:47 PM, Mike John wrote:
I put softdrink bottles in my Waapa. Then I read that they break down eventually, fall to bits and create a real problem.
Mike
I put softdrink bottles in my Waapa. Then I read that they break down eventually, fall to bits and create a real problem.
Mike
Francisco,
I've heard nothing about good about the expandable foam in boats. I removed large pieces from a fiberglass boat and found them full of water. They were very heavy. Lucky it was not a wood boat. I would consider the extruded polystyrene foam used for home insulation. Install it so that there is a good air space between it and the wood. Also consider empty soft drink bottles. Even if the compartment got a hole in it they would still provide flotation. I have this same decision to make for my Micro Navigator, but not for some time yet. Good luck with your build.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 5 Oct, 2009, at 5:04 PM, astrolabio68 wrote:
Sorry if this was discussed before, but I have a concern about the flotation foam in my still-not-finish- micro "Astrolabio"
How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?
If I let the foam expand in the bow, then it is impossible to take it out to make some maintenance, and, when I get some water between the foam and the paint, it will be very difficult to dry it... Ok, i have drain holes in the bottom, but a little water will stay anyways.
I was thinking in make a watertight section, keeping the foam dry, but I'm not very happy with the idea of a box with no air renovation.. . I can think in a system to get some air inside this box, but I don't think it will be enough to do the job.
I was considering some more ideas, but I don't like any of them.
Any experiences will be welcome.
Thanks a lot for your time, and sorry for my english!
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I have to say that I had a profund impact when I knew Phil's death. I really admire his work, and respect the person. Now, the only way I know to make a tribute to him, is work stronger in my/his boat.
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Best wishes to all
Francisco
micro "Astrolabio" in Barcelona, Spain
Sorry if this was discussed before, but I have a concern about the flotation foam in my still-not-finish-micro "Astrolabio"
How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?
If I let the foam expand in the bow, then it is impossible to take it out to make some maintenance, and, when I get some water between the foam and the paint, it will be very difficult to dry it... Ok, i have drain holes in the bottom, but a little water will stay anyways.
I was thinking in make a watertight section, keeping the foam dry, but I'm not very happy with the idea of a box with no air renovation... I can think in a system to get some air inside this box, but I don't think it will be enough to do the job.
I was considering some more ideas, but I don't like any of them.
Any experiences will be welcome.
Thanks a lot for your time, and sorry for my english!
----------------------------------------------------------
I have to say that I had a profund impact when I knew Phil's death. I really admire his work, and respect the person. Now, the only way I know to make a tribute to him, is work stronger in my/his boat.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Best wishes to all
Francisco
micro "Astrolabio" in Barcelona, Spain
How do you think about the polyurethane foam in the bow of micros? Wich is the best way to have this foam safe in his place, and keep it easy to maintain?
If I let the foam expand in the bow, then it is impossible to take it out to make some maintenance, and, when I get some water between the foam and the paint, it will be very difficult to dry it... Ok, i have drain holes in the bottom, but a little water will stay anyways.
I was thinking in make a watertight section, keeping the foam dry, but I'm not very happy with the idea of a box with no air renovation... I can think in a system to get some air inside this box, but I don't think it will be enough to do the job.
I was considering some more ideas, but I don't like any of them.
Any experiences will be welcome.
Thanks a lot for your time, and sorry for my english!
----------------------------------------------------------
I have to say that I had a profund impact when I knew Phil's death. I really admire his work, and respect the person. Now, the only way I know to make a tribute to him, is work stronger in my/his boat.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Best wishes to all
Francisco
micro "Astrolabio" in Barcelona, Spain