RE: [bolger] Re: Check Gloucester Daily Times 10/12/09

---

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofgraeme19121984
Sent:Monday, November 02, 2009 8:01 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Re: Check Gloucester Daily Times 10/12/09

 

The business? First sell 'em small shallow draft appropriate- technology "patrol" boats, then come at 'em over the horizon with super hi-tech like this eh?

http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/bolger/ photos/album/ 396037030/ pic/list(see 'Military' album in photos)

Then sell 'em, or the subsequent government that is, on some more lower tech... repeat. The people will pay... endless & ok?

Graeme

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "Maximo" <grupos@...> wrote:
>
> Please, leave alone the obscure third world port in a back corner of the
> world.
>
> We don`t need nor want your help. We have our own problems. Thanks.
>
> If possible, keep away from this group politics, war and killings, and the
> business related to them.
>
> Don`t make money with war. It`s immoral.
>
> Now that you have a peace nobel prize winner president, give us some peace.
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Maximo" <grupos@...> wrote:
>
> Please, leave alone the obscure third world port in a back corner of the
> world.
>
> We don`t need nor want your help. We have our own problems. Thanks.
>
> If possible, keep away from this group politics, war and killings, and the
> business related to them.
>
> Don`t make money with war. It`s immoral.
>
> Now that you have a peace nobel prize winner president, give us some peace.
>

> ¿But giving low tech boats in order to locals in the future are informants
> to protect your own economic interests in the region? Not very altruist
> help.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Maximo,
> I appreciate your concerns. Let me add to the picture in this order:
> 1.- This is all optional to the local/national authorities, i.e. subject to their decisions.
> -------
> 2.- The intent is to provide local capability to build, maintain, replace in perpetuity locally-built craft.
> 3.- On this basis, other uses for such types and their derivatives can be developed, if and when required for fishing, people- and cargo-transport, scientific work, etc.
> 4.- Instead of selling so-called 'developing' nations finished/high-mark-up/mega-bucks 'western types' from BOSTON WHALER types to larger patrol-craft from THORNYCROFT, LUERSSEN, FINCANTIERI for instance, they can save much money while enhancing local 'Can-Do' spirit, pride, and hopefully a commercial future; once you can build these light types, you are on your way to progressively larger types for off-shore capability and multi-week endurance.
> 5. Armament, drone-equipment, 'daughter boats'/tactical craft will all be up to local/national interests.
> -------
> 6.- The purpose is to enable Sovereignty-Enforcement to protect national boundaries at sea, and thus protection of national fishing rights, protection against illegal dumping of waste by foreign ships, and law-enforcement against piracy, drug/gun-running, i.e, any type of disruption of local/regional commerce such as fishing, short-sea-shipping by indiginous transport etc.
> 7.- Instead of contributing to "war" this should help keep the peace locally/regionally with locally-built craft, and commensurate pride, and over time an increasing self-definition of professionalism ranging from the emerging boat-building industry to the corps of leaders and crew running these craft under national flag.
> 8.- In foreign-policy lingo one might refer to this as 'soft power'-deployment by the US Navy - instead of pointing gun-barrels and sitting ominously on the horizon and on local leader's chest. Making friends through sharing of locally-relevant knowledge-base (vs. autoclave-dependent carbonfiber dreams even the USN can barely afford !) follows a post-colonial policy-tradition that depends on two-way respect and shared interest in terms of security, local/regional commerce, socio-economics - i.e. the very foundation of peaceful co-existence and even security-alliances.
> -------
> 9.- Enabling industrial policies are the farthest from 'making money off war'. Local/national capability to insist on sovereign rights inshore and offshore might keep all sort of things from getting out of hand.
> 10.- Of all people it was Donald Rumsfeld who in 2002 tasked Navy folk to go out and find folks like Phil Bolger & Friends to think outside of the military-industrial box. Out of that seemingly unlikely initiative grew a so far 7-year relationship, during which PB&F and USN learned to bridge vast and deep corporate-cultural 'chasms' in order to focus and pursue perhaps more sensible approaches in the universe of small craft we typically do.
> 11.- In light of items 6. through 8. this capability on offer can be used for good or for ill, pretty much subject to respective local/national policies.
> 12.- On just about all continents cultures existed before the arrival of White-Man-from-West-Europe that knew and practiced everything from war, slavery, exploitation, to just daily humiliation of women/'minorities'. As for instance JARED DIAMOND points out, it is technology alongside geography/topography/fauna/flora that enabled WMfWE to dominate over recent centuries. You can use that domination for ill purposes or you can try to help local/national interests to attain effectiveness that builds and protects a peaceful long-term perspective.
> -------
> 13.- Local peace has a lot to do with local strength, economic/political wherewithall to assert your perspective, and a self-understanding that you can indeed protect and leverage/enhance that which is yours and how to go about it.
> 14.- If anything, this 'nano'-effort of ours is is as 'aspirational/encouraging' as apparently was the intention by the Nobel-Committee when they thrust the Nobel Peace-Prize upon Mr Obama.
> 15.- The project has not even started yet...
> -------
> 16.- Phil and I agreed while-heartedly, that what Mr. Bush showed to the world with IRAQ-2 was how expensive the western high-carbon-consumption life-style is in terms of necessary blood and treasure billed to this nation and others. Depending on primary energy-sources in territories that you neither own nor can can control well-enough for economic 'just-in-time-delivery' schedules is a very serious problem for the US, most of Europe, many Asian nations, etc. Typically it is only the US that has the actual military capability to enforce delivery-contracts the 'hard way' if necessary. And the rest of the world's economy depends in large measure on that strength to keep energy-cost reasonably free from black-mail by a few, happy to see economic heart-attacks through refusal to deliver energy per contract.
> -------
> Phil's life-long personal habits and professional interests have been on the miserly/'within-your-means' side of the record, i.e. by now a distinctly minority perspective. On average, his lifestyle did and does require at best the percentage of primary liquid energy that can actually be produced domestically,i.e. pretty much without 'foreign' oil. While he voluntarily served in the occupation-army in Japan ('46-'47) he and his successors are to this day still reasonably welcome in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. as guarantors of peace, friends to locals with broadly shared political and economic interests. Building Bolger-Boats for local/national use seems a good thing in this overall context.
> -------
> Even boat-design is political, as are your personal projects. They are an expression of one interpretation of the economically-viable, the personally satisfying, the 'sustainable' in broad terms. Pleasure-boating, fishing-craft, law/sovereignty-enforcement craft are all part of that spectrum.
> -------
> Never stop speaking your mind Maximo. Only with open ears and minds do we progress towards less misunderstandings and conflicts.
>
> I think I'll have a drink now...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F.
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pindimarmicro" <greg@...> wrote:
>
> Goodness Susanne, what an impressive reply in all sorts of ways. I bet you needed that drink!
>
> GregF
>
> I can understand people getting upset at American interventions of a negative nature (and goodness knows there's many of those, even in my own country) but what you have outlined is
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@" <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Maximo,
> > I appreciate your concerns. Let me add to the picture in this order:
> > 1.- This is all optional to the local/national authorities, i.e. subject to their decisions.
> > -------
> > 2.- The intent is to provide local capability to build, maintain, replace in perpetuity locally-built craft.
> > 3.- On this basis, other uses for such types and their derivatives can be developed, if and when required for fishing, people- and cargo-transport, scientific work, etc.
> > 4.- Instead of selling so-called 'developing' nations finished/high-mark-up/mega-bucks 'western types' from BOSTON WHALER types to larger patrol-craft from THORNYCROFT, LUERSSEN, FINCANTIERI for instance, they can save much money while enhancing local 'Can-Do' spirit, pride, and hopefully a commercial future; once you can build these light types, you are on your way to progressively larger types for off-shore capability and multi-week endurance.
> > 5. Armament, drone-equipment, 'daughter boats'/tactical craft will all be up to local/national interests.
> > -------
> > 6.- The purpose is to enable Sovereignty-Enforcement to protect national boundaries at sea, and thus protection of national fishing rights, protection against illegal dumping of waste by foreign ships, and law-enforcement against piracy, drug/gun-running, i.e, any type of disruption of local/regional commerce such as fishing, short-sea-shipping by indiginous transport etc.
> > 7.- Instead of contributing to "war" this should help keep the peace locally/regionally with locally-built craft, and commensurate pride, and over time an increasing self-definition of professionalism ranging from the emerging boat-building industry to the corps of leaders and crew running these craft under national flag.
> > 8.- In foreign-policy lingo one might refer to this as 'soft power'-deployment by the US Navy - instead of pointing gun-barrels and sitting ominously on the horizon and on local leader's chest. Making friends through sharing of locally-relevant knowledge-base (vs. autoclave-dependent carbonfiber dreams even the USN can barely afford !) follows a post-colonial policy-tradition that depends on two-way respect and shared interest in terms of security, local/regional commerce, socio-economics - i.e. the very foundation of peaceful co-existence and even security-alliances.
> > -------
> > 9.- Enabling industrial policies are the farthest from 'making money off war'. Local/national capability to insist on sovereign rights inshore and offshore might keep all sort of things from getting out of hand.
> > 10.- Of all people it was Donald Rumsfeld who in 2002 tasked Navy folk to go out and find folks like Phil Bolger & Friends to think outside of the military-industrial box. Out of that seemingly unlikely initiative grew a so far 7-year relationship, during which PB&F and USN learned to bridge vast and deep corporate-cultural 'chasms' in order to focus and pursue perhaps more sensible approaches in the universe of small craft we typically do.
> > 11.- In light of items 6. through 8. this capability on offer can be used for good or for ill, pretty much subject to respective local/national policies.
> > 12.- On just about all continents cultures existed before the arrival of White-Man-from-West-Europe that knew and practiced everything from war, slavery, exploitation, to just daily humiliation of women/'minorities'. As for instance JARED DIAMOND points out, it is technology alongside geography/topography/fauna/flora that enabled WMfWE to dominate over recent centuries. You can use that domination for ill purposes or you can try to help local/national interests to attain effectiveness that builds and protects a peaceful long-term perspective.
> > -------
> > 13.- Local peace has a lot to do with local strength, economic/political wherewithall to assert your perspective, and a self-understanding that you can indeed protect and leverage/enhance that which is yours and how to go about it.
> > 14.- If anything, this 'nano'-effort of ours is is as 'aspirational/encouraging' as apparently was the intention by the Nobel-Committee when they thrust the Nobel Peace-Prize upon Mr Obama.
> > 15.- The project has not even started yet...
> > -------
> > 16.- Phil and I agreed while-heartedly, that what Mr. Bush showed to the world with IRAQ-2 was how expensive the western high-carbon-consumption life-style is in terms of necessary blood and treasure billed to this nation and others. Depending on primary energy-sources in territories that you neither own nor can can control well-enough for economic 'just-in-time-delivery' schedules is a very serious problem for the US, most of Europe, many Asian nations, etc. Typically it is only the US that has the actual military capability to enforce delivery-contracts the 'hard way' if necessary. And the rest of the world's economy depends in large measure on that strength to keep energy-cost reasonably free from black-mail by a few, happy to see economic heart-attacks through refusal to deliver energy per contract.
> > -------
> > Phil's life-long personal habits and professional interests have been on the miserly/'within-your-means' side of the record, i.e. by now a distinctly minority perspective. On average, his lifestyle did and does require at best the percentage of primary liquid energy that can actually be produced domestically,i.e. pretty much without 'foreign' oil. While he voluntarily served in the occupation-army in Japan ('46-'47) he and his successors are to this day still reasonably welcome in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. as guarantors of peace, friends to locals with broadly shared political and economic interests. Building Bolger-Boats for local/national use seems a good thing in this overall context.
> > -------
> > Even boat-design is political, as are your personal projects. They are an expression of one interpretation of the economically-viable, the personally satisfying, the 'sustainable' in broad terms. Pleasure-boating, fishing-craft, law/sovereignty-enforcement craft are all part of that spectrum.
> > -------
> > Never stop speaking your mind Maximo. Only with open ears and minds do we progress towards less misunderstandings and conflicts.
> >
> > I think I'll have a drink now...
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F.
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Maximo,
> I appreciate your concerns. Let me add to the picture in this order:
> 1.- This is all optional to the local/national authorities, i.e. subject to their decisions.
> -------
> 2.- The intent is to provide local capability to build, maintain, replace in perpetuity locally-built craft.
> 3.- On this basis, other uses for such types and their derivatives can be developed, if and when required for fishing, people- and cargo-transport, scientific work, etc.
> 4.- Instead of selling so-called 'developing' nations finished/high-mark-up/mega-bucks 'western types' from BOSTON WHALER types to larger patrol-craft from THORNYCROFT, LUERSSEN, FINCANTIERI for instance, they can save much money while enhancing local 'Can-Do' spirit, pride, and hopefully a commercial future; once you can build these light types, you are on your way to progressively larger types for off-shore capability and multi-week endurance.
> 5. Armament, drone-equipment, 'daughter boats'/tactical craft will all be up to local/national interests.
> -------
> 6.- The purpose is to enable Sovereignty-Enforcement to protect national boundaries at sea, and thus protection of national fishing rights, protection against illegal dumping of waste by foreign ships, and law-enforcement against piracy, drug/gun-running, i.e, any type of disruption of local/regional commerce such as fishing, short-sea-shipping by indiginous transport etc.
> 7.- Instead of contributing to "war" this should help keep the peace locally/regionally with locally-built craft, and commensurate pride, and over time an increasing self-definition of professionalism ranging from the emerging boat-building industry to the corps of leaders and crew running these craft under national flag.
> 8.- In foreign-policy lingo one might refer to this as 'soft power'-deployment by the US Navy - instead of pointing gun-barrels and sitting ominously on the horizon and on local leader's chest. Making friends through sharing of locally-relevant knowledge-base (vs. autoclave-dependent carbonfiber dreams even the USN can barely afford !) follows a post-colonial policy-tradition that depends on two-way respect and shared interest in terms of security, local/regional commerce, socio-economics - i.e. the very foundation of peaceful co-existence and even security-alliances.
> -------
> 9.- Enabling industrial policies are the farthest from 'making money off war'. Local/national capability to insist on sovereign rights inshore and offshore might keep all sort of things from getting out of hand.
> 10.- Of all people it was Donald Rumsfeld who in 2002 tasked Navy folk to go out and find folks like Phil Bolger & Friends to think outside of the military-industrial box. Out of that seemingly unlikely initiative grew a so far 7-year relationship, during which PB&F and USN learned to bridge vast and deep corporate-cultural 'chasms' in order to focus and pursue perhaps more sensible approaches in the universe of small craft we typically do.
> 11.- In light of items 6. through 8. this capability on offer can be used for good or for ill, pretty much subject to respective local/national policies.
> 12.- On just about all continents cultures existed before the arrival of White-Man-from-West-Europe that knew and practiced everything from war, slavery, exploitation, to just daily humiliation of women/'minorities'. As for instance JARED DIAMOND points out, it is technology alongside geography/topography/fauna/flora that enabled WMfWE to dominate over recent centuries. You can use that domination for ill purposes or you can try to help local/national interests to attain effectiveness that builds and protects a peaceful long-term perspective.
> -------
> 13.- Local peace has a lot to do with local strength, economic/political wherewithall to assert your perspective, and a self-understanding that you can indeed protect and leverage/enhance that which is yours and how to go about it.
> 14.- If anything, this 'nano'-effort of ours is is as 'aspirational/encouraging' as apparently was the intention by the Nobel-Committee when they thrust the Nobel Peace-Prize upon Mr Obama.
> 15.- The project has not even started yet...
> -------
> 16.- Phil and I agreed while-heartedly, that what Mr. Bush showed to the world with IRAQ-2 was how expensive the western high-carbon-consumption life-style is in terms of necessary blood and treasure billed to this nation and others. Depending on primary energy-sources in territories that you neither own nor can can control well-enough for economic 'just-in-time-delivery' schedules is a very serious problem for the US, most of Europe, many Asian nations, etc. Typically it is only the US that has the actual military capability to enforce delivery-contracts the 'hard way' if necessary. And the rest of the world's economy depends in large measure on that strength to keep energy-cost reasonably free from black-mail by a few, happy to see economic heart-attacks through refusal to deliver energy per contract.
> -------
> Phil's life-long personal habits and professional interests have been on the miserly/'within-your-means' side of the record, i.e. by now a distinctly minority perspective. On average, his lifestyle did and does require at best the percentage of primary liquid energy that can actually be produced domestically,i.e. pretty much without 'foreign' oil. While he voluntarily served in the occupation-army in Japan ('46-'47) he and his successors are to this day still reasonably welcome in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. as guarantors of peace, friends to locals with broadly shared political and economic interests. Building Bolger-Boats for local/national use seems a good thing in this overall context.
> -------
> Even boat-design is political, as are your personal projects. They are an expression of one interpretation of the economically-viable, the personally satisfying, the 'sustainable' in broad terms. Pleasure-boating, fishing-craft, law/sovereignty-enforcement craft are all part of that spectrum.
> -------
> Never stop speaking your mind Maximo. Only with open ears and minds do we progress towards less misunderstandings and conflicts.
>
> I think I'll have a drink now...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F.
>

>
>
>
> For 40 years I have been a sympathetic appreciater of what Phil Bolger and his 'boats for everyone, cautious use of material and resources' philosophy.
>
> As a US citizen who has lived abroad for the last 15 years I have gained a little perspective on how we are viewed around the world. People throughout the world would be afraid of any intervention by a country currently pursuing military invasions of two other countries, maintaining wide spread 'black site' torture prisons and the humiliating shame of Guantanamo Bay.
>
> If only we could stick to building smart, simple efficient boats for humane use.

>
>
>
> Congratulations on at least the recognition by the Navy that this is a needed and viable option in many parts of the globe. I hope it comes to fruition.
>
> D. Jost

>
>
>
> FYI,
> gloucester times.com offers an interesting headline.  Susanne

On Oct 12, 2009, at 11:42 AM,Susanne@...wrote:

 

FYI,
gloucestertimes.comoffers an interesting headline.  Susanne

>
>
>
> new photos onhttp://picasaweb.google.com/dnjost/WorkSkiff02?authkey=Gv1sRgCM6Bgunj8qLhYg&feat=directlink
>
> This is currently the USS Neversail. Hopefully I can attach the external rails next weekend and put the center seat on. Console will be added later.
>
> David Jost
>
> PS. lots of foam inside

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
>
> Very nice photos David but they could use more captions for the obsessed viewers who just gotta read about the nity-gritty details they're viewing.Not speaking about myself,of course..........
>
> Good to hear she's loaded with floatation too....can almost never be too safe! :D
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan,viewer from the North of you........

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> new photos onhttp://picasaweb.google.com/dnjost/WorkSkiff02?authkey=Gv1sRgCM6Bgunj8qLhYg&feat=directlink
>
> This is currently the USS Neversail. Hopefully I can attach the external rails next weekend and put the center seat on. Console will be added later.
>
> David Jost
>
> PS. lots of foam inside
>