Re: {Disarmed} [bolger] Re: Bolger-Boat, Navy and Overseas Realities
Suzanne,
Said so much better than I had planned in response.
Thank you.
Said so much better than I had planned in response.
Thank you.
Good to hear from you again, Maximo.
If you have indeed been personally or your family, town been tragically directly impacted/injured by US/UK/Fr etc. aggression read no further. There is no adequate addressing that pain with mere words. Except that there are many ways to have your life degraded/damaged irrepairably without having to be in a particular geography.
If not, in my printed and online version of the news-article I see no Navy Rep being quoted. Are there other versions out there ?
- "Violence":
It is not remotely an invention of folks of north-west European origin who showed up 500 years. A good number of indigenous cultures in the Americas for instance had their own well-evolved drastic 'traditions' of meting out rewards and punishment with lurid displays of grotesk cruelties as fiercely-defended expressions of cultural autonomy perfectly qualifying for the Top-10 nastiest self-created habits in History.
On the other hand, there appears little violence-potential in sharing tools that may allow protecting national borders, rights, claims to natural resources and just the insistence on civilized neighborly relations; and without 'credibility' expressed in whatever local currency/symbol/hardware/behavior none of that is more than fond hope.
So who starts violence for violence' sake these days ? In these parts very little social gain can be yielded for these impulses. Typically the civil- and penal codes settle the issue sooner or later.
- "Helping folks":
If a local patrol boat is an (apparently illegitimate) 'weapon' then so is a local police-car, not to mention many cultures and customs where folks carry/wear 'multi-purpose hand-held tools' on their belt or over their shoulder. We could go quite far speculating as to their 'actual' motivation as they walk by.
You can certainly argue about developmental policies by those richer countries offering funding to those less well-off - be it in grants or contractual agreements as in loans etc. - , respective conditions imposed, and outcomes desired/manipulated. Actual horror-stories but also conspiratorial screed galore in likely equal measure. But we learn, such as how to vote a man of mixed race and materially decidedly 'under-privileged' early origins into the White House, or agreeing to put folks of all 'colors' at the head of the UN etc. But what would be the absolute standard one could quote as a shining beacon of how things should be and should have been a long time ago ? I know of much more or less 'western' philosophy that offered their understanding generations ago of what makes for 'the good life', humanitarian ethics, etc. And there are other continents where such valuable thoughts emerged, perhaps even captured for posterity, but where were these 'lost' examples of superior applied humanitarianism ?
Exploration of the globe from Europe and Asia moving 'outwards' had pretty much been completed before OSS/CIA/MI-5/BND/KGB etc. would have able to rig the anthropological record in order to deny the existence of indigenous utopias that would have attracted folks from the world over had they just been allowed to learn about respective examples of 'paradise'. It seems that there is a fair chance of us long being aware of absolutely stunningly humanitarian cultures that catered both to the needs of the mind/soul and those of the body such as through ample food and superior medicine. The tragedy is that there may indeed never have been any such places. Which brings us to the question again, what is our frame of reference ? And do we always see the dark before accepting the existence of light ?
- "Future informants":
Hopefully friendly as soon as the boat has taken shape and is put to work. Will it float rightside up ? Talking to each other and about each other, including behind each other's backs is multi-cultural indeed and has been with us as a species since 'Day One'...
- "Protecting economic interest":
Not a recent 'Western' invention either. Older than Chizen Itza, the Pyramids, or the Caves of Neanderthal about an hour north of here I was born... Evo Morales for instance is one nation's leader with deep indigenous roots who understands the past and one economically-advantageous version of the future and rightfully insists on crafting it in the interest of his country, his people. I hope he will become one key example of significant national socio-economic development under a high degree of domestic control and balance in outcomes. And yes he will find it advantageous to protect his country's economic interest when writing contracts and treatises.
- In point 16. I point out the cost in blood, treasure and mental damage of hyper-consumption - as defined by consumption with little lasting and good to show for. Brazil is gorging on the Amazon, the US cut down most of its limited stock of 2000-year old trees to build porches and 'fine furniture', Japan has just about fished out its homewaters, Ancient Mesopotamia ruined a good part of its agriculture by bad irrigation-practices, Northwest Atlantic Herring was almost wiped out 30 years ago, Gloucester clear-cut its woods at least three times over the centuries, Mexico-City is destroying its watersupply, while China's and India's population-growth is already leading to massive self-damage and very dire long-term prognostications eventually vastly out-damaging 'The West's' impact on the globe, while the Viking settlers in 'Green'land starved to death out of willful rejection of local and ample food-supplies. Self-destruction is, again, not a 'Western' invention. Wanton consumption is self-destructive in so many ways. Hence our interest in leaner approaches, smallish cars, no daily commutes, hyper-insulated home against energy-costs across all four New England seasons; we are no saints but we try to think about how we live. And IRAQ-2 was a clean example of what it takes to burn this much energy in the US, Europe and Asia. While millions protested, wrote bitter tomes against the outrage in endless blogs, not much happened in conservative and liberal circles to reduce the need to have MIDDLE-EAST-III eventually drop on Mr. Obama's desk. No local interest in the results when Phil and I improved the house to heat it for 12-month/year with under 200gals total of oil (still a lot of the finite stuff), and again and again rethought priorities in our work. No interest by neither 'stonking' conservatives nor 'flaming' liberals... Strange world. Some more movement in Europe but also very late and haltingly in coming.
Where are the utopias you may have in mind. Is everything being done in your part of the world to 'do the right thing' ?
- Few bureaucrats get out of bed in the morning to damage folks far away in some compulsive pursuit of violence; it's just not a particularly viable business in the age of vast distribution of literacy, cameras on satellite-phones, sharing of common languages and progressively so common values - give or take...
Will one find peace in a perspective of doubt, suspicion, dark interpretations and dread of the next thing to happen ? Well before losing Phil I have found myself in 'dark places'. Most folks get damaged, injured in one or the other way, sooner or later. The question is: what to do next ? Will the injury define the perspective forever towards darker visions ? Feeding old pain is still feeding an enemy, not a friend.
Like you Maximo, I am a non-native speaker, flunked english in school once, working-class back-ground, and yet we are talking, even about serious things, very serious things. Phil and I bridged 31 years of age, different cultural background, different languages, because we found each other perspective interesting, even rewarding at times, and found ways to learn from each other in order to see the words in hopefully greater detail, better comprehension perhaps, with still growing curiosity and thus perhaps the chance to not repeat bad habits, old mistakes - no matter how dearly held close to the heart. Long way to go yet...
Susanne Altenburger
If you have indeed been personally or your family, town been tragically directly impacted/injured by US/UK/Fr etc. aggression read no further. There is no adequate addressing that pain with mere words. Except that there are many ways to have your life degraded/damaged irrepairably without having to be in a particular geography.
If not, in my printed and online version of the news-article I see no Navy Rep being quoted. Are there other versions out there ?
- "Violence":
It is not remotely an invention of folks of north-west European origin who showed up 500 years. A good number of indigenous cultures in the Americas for instance had their own well-evolved drastic 'traditions' of meting out rewards and punishment with lurid displays of grotesk cruelties as fiercely-defended expressions of cultural autonomy perfectly qualifying for the Top-10 nastiest self-created habits in History.
On the other hand, there appears little violence-potential in sharing tools that may allow protecting national borders, rights, claims to natural resources and just the insistence on civilized neighborly relations; and without 'credibility' expressed in whatever local currency/symbol/hardware/behavior none of that is more than fond hope.
So who starts violence for violence' sake these days ? In these parts very little social gain can be yielded for these impulses. Typically the civil- and penal codes settle the issue sooner or later.
- "Helping folks":
If a local patrol boat is an (apparently illegitimate) 'weapon' then so is a local police-car, not to mention many cultures and customs where folks carry/wear 'multi-purpose hand-held tools' on their belt or over their shoulder. We could go quite far speculating as to their 'actual' motivation as they walk by.
You can certainly argue about developmental policies by those richer countries offering funding to those less well-off - be it in grants or contractual agreements as in loans etc. - , respective conditions imposed, and outcomes desired/manipulated. Actual horror-stories but also conspiratorial screed galore in likely equal measure. But we learn, such as how to vote a man of mixed race and materially decidedly 'under-privileged' early origins into the White House, or agreeing to put folks of all 'colors' at the head of the UN etc. But what would be the absolute standard one could quote as a shining beacon of how things should be and should have been a long time ago ? I know of much more or less 'western' philosophy that offered their understanding generations ago of what makes for 'the good life', humanitarian ethics, etc. And there are other continents where such valuable thoughts emerged, perhaps even captured for posterity, but where were these 'lost' examples of superior applied humanitarianism ?
Exploration of the globe from Europe and Asia moving 'outwards' had pretty much been completed before OSS/CIA/MI-5/BND/KGB etc. would have able to rig the anthropological record in order to deny the existence of indigenous utopias that would have attracted folks from the world over had they just been allowed to learn about respective examples of 'paradise'. It seems that there is a fair chance of us long being aware of absolutely stunningly humanitarian cultures that catered both to the needs of the mind/soul and those of the body such as through ample food and superior medicine. The tragedy is that there may indeed never have been any such places. Which brings us to the question again, what is our frame of reference ? And do we always see the dark before accepting the existence of light ?
- "Future informants":
Hopefully friendly as soon as the boat has taken shape and is put to work. Will it float rightside up ? Talking to each other and about each other, including behind each other's backs is multi-cultural indeed and has been with us as a species since 'Day One'...
- "Protecting economic interest":
Not a recent 'Western' invention either. Older than Chizen Itza, the Pyramids, or the Caves of Neanderthal about an hour north of here I was born... Evo Morales for instance is one nation's leader with deep indigenous roots who understands the past and one economically-advantageous version of the future and rightfully insists on crafting it in the interest of his country, his people. I hope he will become one key example of significant national socio-economic development under a high degree of domestic control and balance in outcomes. And yes he will find it advantageous to protect his country's economic interest when writing contracts and treatises.
- In point 16. I point out the cost in blood, treasure and mental damage of hyper-consumption - as defined by consumption with little lasting and good to show for. Brazil is gorging on the Amazon, the US cut down most of its limited stock of 2000-year old trees to build porches and 'fine furniture', Japan has just about fished out its homewaters, Ancient Mesopotamia ruined a good part of its agriculture by bad irrigation-practices, Northwest Atlantic Herring was almost wiped out 30 years ago, Gloucester clear-cut its woods at least three times over the centuries, Mexico-City is destroying its watersupply, while China's and India's population-growth is already leading to massive self-damage and very dire long-term prognostications eventually vastly out-damaging 'The West's' impact on the globe, while the Viking settlers in 'Green'land starved to death out of willful rejection of local and ample food-supplies. Self-destruction is, again, not a 'Western' invention. Wanton consumption is self-destructive in so many ways. Hence our interest in leaner approaches, smallish cars, no daily commutes, hyper-insulated home against energy-costs across all four New England seasons; we are no saints but we try to think about how we live. And IRAQ-2 was a clean example of what it takes to burn this much energy in the US, Europe and Asia. While millions protested, wrote bitter tomes against the outrage in endless blogs, not much happened in conservative and liberal circles to reduce the need to have MIDDLE-EAST-III eventually drop on Mr. Obama's desk. No local interest in the results when Phil and I improved the house to heat it for 12-month/year with under 200gals total of oil (still a lot of the finite stuff), and again and again rethought priorities in our work. No interest by neither 'stonking' conservatives nor 'flaming' liberals... Strange world. Some more movement in Europe but also very late and haltingly in coming.
Where are the utopias you may have in mind. Is everything being done in your part of the world to 'do the right thing' ?
- Few bureaucrats get out of bed in the morning to damage folks far away in some compulsive pursuit of violence; it's just not a particularly viable business in the age of vast distribution of literacy, cameras on satellite-phones, sharing of common languages and progressively so common values - give or take...
Will one find peace in a perspective of doubt, suspicion, dark interpretations and dread of the next thing to happen ? Well before losing Phil I have found myself in 'dark places'. Most folks get damaged, injured in one or the other way, sooner or later. The question is: what to do next ? Will the injury define the perspective forever towards darker visions ? Feeding old pain is still feeding an enemy, not a friend.
Like you Maximo, I am a non-native speaker, flunked english in school once, working-class back-ground, and yet we are talking, even about serious things, very serious things. Phil and I bridged 31 years of age, different cultural background, different languages, because we found each other perspective interesting, even rewarding at times, and found ways to learn from each other in order to see the words in hopefully greater detail, better comprehension perhaps, with still growing curiosity and thus perhaps the chance to not repeat bad habits, old mistakes - no matter how dearly held close to the heart. Long way to go yet...
Susanne Altenburger
----- Original Message -----From:MaximoSent:Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:01 AMSubject:RE: [bolger] Re: Check Gloucester Daily Times 10/12/09Susanne and others, thank you for your long answers. Susanne, you are much
more diplomatic than the offensive words of the Navy rep. You should
consider running for candidate :)
When USA is offering something to some "obscure third world port in a back
corner of the world" the meaning of "optional" is not well defined.
There are always justifications for violence, especially far away from your
home: religion, land, slavery, nuclear weapons, oil, pirates, fresh water...
probably the sea, artic and antartic region are next.
If someone want to help poor people in poor country, you could start with
education, health, food, worthy house and work. As you can see, you can do a
lot before giving weapons. For that, congratulations on your efficient
fishing design. I salute you.
¿But giving low tech boats in order to locals in the future are informants
to protect your own economic interests in the region? Not very altruist
help.
In point 16, you make clear this politics is not intended for helping poor
people. Is for preserving US, Europe, Asian style of life, your economy, not
the "global" economy.
John: "Politics occupies about 2 seconds of most American minds a day, we
rarely care." I think this is a problem :)
Sometimes, when you think your goverment are helping, they are hurting us.
Don`t get me wrong, I don`t have "apologetic stance toward America as a
general statement". Only for your international politics :)
I`ve been there many times, and I hope, if the CIA is not reading this 8) I
will be there more in the future.
As this turns very off-topic, and most of the readers of this group are
americans, and I don`t want to choose wrongs words or expresions, beacuse of
a bad translation, I will do my best to not write about this anymore, and I
apologize in advance to the group. As you can read, as english is not my
native language, is very difficult to find the right words and speech
freely. I will return to amateur boatbuilding for fun.
Peace. Máximo.