Re: Pointing Ability, Micro and Long Micro
>Having moved from a Micro to a Marshall Cat will recommend sailing the boat loose. These boats will move much better if kept around 60 degrees to the wind. don't trim the boom in over the rail and keep the sail draft forward. If you want to sail less than 45 degrees, get a J boat. By the time you launch and rig it, I will have been to the destination already in a Micro.
> > Pointing is a real bone of contention as it can make
> > such a difference
> > to a journey.
>
There is so much to recommend with a Micro that it is easy to overlook its shortcomings. We had a good time with it.
Good luck,
David Jost
>Nels, I hope your friend can scan and post those photos, they are of
>
>
> Elrow lived in Ft. Myers. I had a friend who visited him and took some
> photos of him building his Micro which I still have. Sadly he died
> before he finished his Micro.
historical interest.
photos of him building his Micro which I still have. Sadly he died
before he finished his Micro.
I think he planned to launch it somewhere along the mouth of the
Caloosahatchee river, more inland. Of course Micro was a prototype and
Elrow was a neophyte so no way he would be able to ascertain how it
might handle tides.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> The late Elrow Larowe lived on the west coast of Florida, somewhere a
bit north of Tampa bay as I recall. I got my Oldshoe plans from him. You
will have to inquire elsewhere for tides there.
> Pointing is a real bone of contention as it can makeOne thing about cat-rigged (meaning no jib) boats is that you can pull the boom in and point the boat will up into the wind. But you slow, perhaps very, very slow.
> such a difference
> to a journey.
The keel on a boat like a Micro will, in most cases, generate the lift you need to keep you from drifting to leeward, but the lift/drag ratio is low, meaning that it creates a lot of drag. So the boat will point high, but go slow. Cat sailors need to learn just how far in it pays to pull the boom. I used to compare the main to a jib; the boom has to go over the rail at just about the point to which a genoa jib would be sheeted.
It's also true the the slower you go, the more keel or cb area you need. (PCB wrote this somewhere.) In any boat, when you are trying to get going from stopped, you may slide sideways for a while. In a boat like Micro, you will need decent forward motion to get the keel into an efficient zone.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Martin Roberts <martin.me.roberts@...> wrote:
I do not know where La Rowe for whom the Micro was designed lived
> but I wonder if it was a place with little or no tide.
>
> Martin
>
Here's a design instance: Otter is nearly as beamy as Micro with similar sail area, and she's as long as LM, but you could barely roll over on the cabin sole. You have to crawl and shimmy to get in there! It was designed about 25 years before Micro to be a lively and _weatherly_ sailer, and PCB wrote "The cabin can't be made higher without seriously hurting her sailing ability..." Drag vs lift, and worse in lighter winds.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Martin Roberts <martin.me.roberts@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I have noticed on my Micro that she can point like other boats but
> tends to drift off with leeway. When I have a decent tideway under me I
> get about 100 degrees. In other words the tide acts a leeboard/keel and
> really helps. When going against a tide I have on a number of
> experiences found my self worse off after a tack than when I started.
> In these conditions my Micro becomes an engine assisted motor sailor!
>
> Pointing is a real bone of contention as it can make such a difference
> to a journey. Quite often I leave my mooring before high tide and sail
> against it to return after it has passed struggling to get back to the
> mooring, If she could have just a little less leeway I would feel more
> confident about sailing into the wind and getting to where I want to
> go. I do not know where La Rowe for whom the Micro was designed lived
> but I wonder if it was a place with little or no tide.
>
> Martin
>
I have noticed on my Micro that she can point like other boats but
tends to drift off with leeway. When I have a decent tideway under me I
get about 100 degrees. In other words the tide acts a leeboard/keel and
really helps. When going against a tide I have on a number of
experiences found my self worse off after a tack than when I started.
In these conditions my Micro becomes an engine assisted motor sailor!
Pointing is a real bone of contention as it can make such a difference
to a journey. Quite often I leave my mooring before high tide and sail
against it to return after it has passed struggling to get back to the
mooring, If she could have just a little less leeway I would feel more
confident about sailing into the wind and getting to where I want to
go. I do not know where La Rowe for whom the Micro was designed lived
but I wonder if it was a place with little or no tide.
Martin
Yes indeed: Dabbler Sails in Virginia. I am pleased with their (actually Stuart's) service, workmanship, speed of delivery etc. I have no reason to think my sails are not cut optimally. But I also don't have experience with other sails on my LM either so I have no other data points (sails) to compare too. When I wrote Bolger in the summer of 2008 he responded that he thought my sails might be at fault, however, I did not mention that I had mine cut by a loft, so perhaps Bolger had a vision of me sailing with blue polytarp, Tyvex, or old t-shirts quilted into a mainsail.
Recently I have seen pointing stats published in sailing magazines...a whooping total of twice. A review of the new Hunter 39 (in Sail, November 2009, pp. 33) noted that in 25 knots of wind, "On the wind, with both sails heavily reefed, we achieved tacking angles of 110 degrees. The deep keel version is bound to point higher." They were testing the "shoal" draft Hunter, which draws 5 feet.
I'm struck at times at how little quantifiable data there is on boat performance, yet there is no limit to the pontification, opining, and chest-beating. I guess this is all in line with the interweb; the CB radio of the 2000's.
Bill, in Texas. Happily standing without any snow shovel or ice-scraper, or rock salt.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> If I recall, you had a pretty good loft make your sails as well? Was it
> Dabbler?
>
>http://www.dabblersails.com/
>
> Mr. Bolger wrote about this on page 333 of BWAOM.
>
> "Sailmakers win and lose as many races as designers..."
>
> Also I think Peter Lenihan has mentioned that learning how to adjust the
> snotter on a leg o' mutton to get the best sail shape takes a bit of
> practice. You want to keep a bit more fullness in the sail than with a
> standard Bermuda rig?
>
> And have the sheets a bit freer? Or something like that:-)
>
> Also I mentioned awhile back about the "old salts" at Shelter Island
> being amazed at how fast Dan Gonneau's Zephyr was. They had never seen a
> boat like that and could not quite figure out what it was. Some thought
> it was some kind of old design Dan had "tweaked" somehow:-)
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@> wrote:
> >
> > Stefan,
> > I have cut and pasted a response I posted on the WoodenBoat web forum
> this summer. I think that any discussion of pointing ability should be
> made with the two following cautions in mind.
>
Yours Truly,
Stefan,
I have cut and pasted a response I posted on the WoodenBoat web forum this summer. I think that any discussion of pointing ability should be made with the two following cautions in mind.
1. I think people exaggerate and sometimes just lie when they talk about how well their boat points. Some people cheery-pick the one time their boat was in smooth water with a rip tide running under their keel to show how well their boat points. Or they look at the compass to determine their track. Or they just make up estimates. Except for some polar diagrams on the internet (usually produced for sailboats used for racing), there are few hard, data-driven, empirical analyses of pointing ability. The print sailing magazines almost never publish pointing statistics or (god forbid) a polar. I also think that people afflicted with boats which do not point well keep silent lest they embarrass themselves. And thus everyone thinks that there are other boats which point better and that everyone else can tack through 60 or 80 degrees.
2. Operator proficiency and skill (i.e., the skills of the skipper) matter. Some people couldn't get a J22 to windward. Others can sail Puddle Duck Racers all over the place when larger boats are sinking and running aground. Enough preamble, here's your answer:
*****
She sails well to windward. Not great, but not horrible. I think the nut on the end of the tiller has a lot to do with boat performance, so put my experience into context with my mediocre ability to get other boats to go to windward. After sailing I look at my GPS tracklogs on my computer and determine my CMG to windward when tacking. On a Beneteau I can get a CMG of around 50-55 degrees. On my LM I can get 60 degrees. My LM will hold 60 degrees in big waves and small, with reefs tied in or not. In very smooth water in the lee of Middle Bass Island I once got her to 55 degrees CMG in a string of tacks, but those were perfect conditions. I will regularly sail to windward in the Lake while other, plastic boats are motoring. In mid-July I spent the night in Schoolhouse Bay (off of Middle Bass I., in Lake Erie). The wind was on the nose from the anchorage but I tacked in and dropped the hook without using the outboard. Every other boat motored in, some from quite a distance out. So I'm a little incredulous that people think Bolger boats are designed to motor to windward. I spend the majority of my sailing time going to windward.
Off the wind. She hauls (for a 19.5 foot long boat). Off the wind a bit- beam reach to beam run- and she will regularly hit mid-6 knot speeds and I've seen a few short stints of 7.2 knots. This summer I was following a plastic sloop (around 30 feet long) and we were both on a beam run. I kept up with them and was a little surprised I couldn't reel them in. And that's saying something when a boat 19.5 feet long expects to reel-in a 30 footer.
************ *********
I don't think that 60 degrees is great, but it works for me. But some people respond with exclamations ("60 degrees? Excruciating! "
"Death by a thousand cuts") and act as if everyone else on the water is getting within 45 degrees of the wind. Methinks not, and I haven't seen anyone posting track log files on the internet to show me otherwise. Regardless, I regularly sail to windward when many other boats (boats with magical powers to head to windward) are motoring. Bottom line- it's a great boat and I love it very much.
Bill, in Texas
Long Micro Pugnacious
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
>
> Slightly off topic but on Bolger - does your Long Micro point any
> better or sail differently than the regular Micro?
>
> Sincerely,
> Stefan
>
> "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -
> anonymous
>
> http://www.cottagem ed.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:03 AM, William wrote:
>
> Tim,
> Thanks for posting, and thanks for posting pics of your punt too. I've
> been seriously considering a small tender for my Long Micro. A few
> weeks ago I was scouring BWAOM, pondering the Auray Punt, and you
> posted pics of your build. Nice looking boat.
> Bill
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "tim_cleary_ sc" <saturntown@ > wrote:
> >
> > Today I took a small expedition cruise in the modified Aubray punt.
> I went to Lake Murray near Columbia, SC and rowed up the Saluda River
> branch of the lake, about a combined 18 miles. There was a lot of
> motor boat wakes and about 1/2 ft chop otherwise. I got some idea of
> the average cruising speed of this boat, that being about 4 mph. To
> me, that speed was very nice for a 9'6" home-built boat. It opens up
> possibilities for more extended expeditions.
> > Tim C.
> >
>
If I recall, you had a pretty good loft make your sails as well? Was it
Dabbler?
http://www.dabblersails.com/
Mr. Bolger wrote about this on page 333 of BWAOM.
"Sailmakers win and lose as many races as designers..."
Also I think Peter Lenihan has mentioned that learning how to adjust the
snotter on a leg o' mutton to get the best sail shape takes a bit of
practice. You want to keep a bit more fullness in the sail than with a
standard Bermuda rig?
And have the sheets a bit freer? Or something like that:-)
Also I mentioned awhile back about the "old salts" at Shelter Island
being amazed at how fast Dan Gonneau's Zephyr was. They had never seen a
boat like that and could not quite figure out what it was. Some thought
it was some kind of old design Dan had "tweaked" somehow:-)
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Stefan,
> I have cut and pasted a response I posted on the WoodenBoat web forum
this summer. I think that any discussion of pointing ability should be
made with the two following cautions in mind.
I have cut and pasted a response I posted on the WoodenBoat web forum this summer. I think that any discussion of pointing ability should be made with the two following cautions in mind.
1. I think people exaggerate and sometimes just lie when they talk about how well their boat points. Some people cheery-pick the one time their boat was in smooth water with a rip tide running under their keel to show how well their boat points. Or they look at the compass to determine their track. Or they just make up estimates. Except for some polar diagrams on the internet (usually produced for sailboats used for racing), there are few hard, data-driven, empirical analyses of pointing ability. The print sailing magazines almost never publish pointing statistics or (god forbid) a polar. I also think that people afflicted with boats which do not point well keep silent lest they embarrass themselves. And thus everyone thinks that there are other boats which point better and that everyone else can tack through 60 or 80 degrees.
2. Operator proficiency and skill (i.e., the skills of the skipper) matter. Some people couldn't get a J22 to windward. Others can sail Puddle Duck Racers all over the place when larger boats are sinking and running aground. Enough preamble, here's your answer:
*****
She sails well to windward. Not great, but not horrible. I think the nut on the end of the tiller has a lot to do with boat performance, so put my experience into context with my mediocre ability to get other boats to go to windward. After sailing I look at my GPS tracklogs on my computer and determine my CMG to windward when tacking. On a Beneteau I can get a CMG of around 50-55 degrees. On my LM I can get 60 degrees. My LM will hold 60 degrees in big waves and small, with reefs tied in or not. In very smooth water in the lee of Middle Bass Island I once got her to 55 degrees CMG in a string of tacks, but those were perfect conditions. I will regularly sail to windward in the Lake while other, plastic boats are motoring. In mid-July I spent the night in Schoolhouse Bay (off of Middle Bass I., in Lake Erie). The wind was on the nose from the anchorage but I tacked in and dropped the hook without using the outboard. Every other boat motored in, some from quite a distance out. So I'm a little incredulous that people think Bolger boats are designed to motor to windward. I spend the majority of my sailing time going to windward.
Off the wind. She hauls (for a 19.5 foot long boat). Off the wind a bit- beam reach to beam run- and she will regularly hit mid-6 knot speeds and I've seen a few short stints of 7.2 knots. This summer I was following a plastic sloop (around 30 feet long) and we were both on a beam run. I kept up with them and was a little surprised I couldn't reel them in. And that's saying something when a boat 19.5 feet long expects to reel-in a 30 footer.
*********************
I don't think that 60 degrees is great, but it works for me. But some people respond with exclamations ("60 degrees? Excruciating!"
"Death by a thousand cuts") and act as if everyone else on the water is getting within 45 degrees of the wind. Methinks not, and I haven't seen anyone posting track log files on the internet to show me otherwise. Regardless, I regularly sail to windward when many other boats (boats with magical powers to head to windward) are motoring. Bottom line- it's a great boat and I love it very much.
Bill, in Texas
Long Micro Pugnacious
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
>
> Slightly off topic but on Bolger - does your Long Micro point any
> better or sail differently than the regular Micro?
>
> Sincerely,
> Stefan
>
> "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -
> anonymous
>
>http://www.cottagemed.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:03 AM, William wrote:
>
> Tim,
> Thanks for posting, and thanks for posting pics of your punt too. I've
> been seriously considering a small tender for my Long Micro. A few
> weeks ago I was scouring BWAOM, pondering the Auray Punt, and you
> posted pics of your build. Nice looking boat.
> Bill
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "tim_cleary_sc" <saturntown@> wrote:
> >
> > Today I took a small expedition cruise in the modified Aubray punt.
> I went to Lake Murray near Columbia, SC and rowed up the Saluda River
> branch of the lake, about a combined 18 miles. There was a lot of
> motor boat wakes and about 1/2 ft chop otherwise. I got some idea of
> the average cruising speed of this boat, that being about 4 mph. To
> me, that speed was very nice for a 9'6" home-built boat. It opens up
> possibilities for more extended expeditions.
> > Tim C.
> >
>
Sincerely,
Tim,
Thanks for posting, and thanks for posting pics of your punt too. I've been seriously considering a small tender for my Long Micro. A few weeks ago I was scouring BWAOM, pondering the Auray Punt, and you posted pics of your build. Nice looking boat.
Bill
--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "tim_cleary_ sc" <saturntown@ ...> wrote:
>
> Today I took a small expedition cruise in the modified Aubray punt. I went to Lake Murray near Columbia, SC and rowed up the Saluda River branch of the lake, about a combined 18 miles. There was a lot of motor boat wakes and about 1/2 ft chop otherwise. I got some idea of the average cruising speed of this boat, that being about 4 mph. To me, that speed was very nice for a 9'6" home-built boat. It opens up possibilities for more extended expeditions.
> Tim C.
>
Thanks for posting, and thanks for posting pics of your punt too. I've been seriously considering a small tender for my Long Micro. A few weeks ago I was scouring BWAOM, pondering the Auray Punt, and you posted pics of your build. Nice looking boat.
Bill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "tim_cleary_sc" <saturntown@...> wrote:
>
> Today I took a small expedition cruise in the modified Aubray punt. I went to Lake Murray near Columbia, SC and rowed up the Saluda River branch of the lake, about a combined 18 miles. There was a lot of motor boat wakes and about 1/2 ft chop otherwise. I got some idea of the average cruising speed of this boat, that being about 4 mph. To me, that speed was very nice for a 9'6" home-built boat. It opens up possibilities for more extended expeditions.
> Tim C.
>
Tim C.