Why I think Steel is a bad idea for real small boats
Well, after outlining my background. I was the training coordinator for the largest boat buiding and repair company on the west coast. Trade Mentor for women and minorities in Boat Steel Fabrication and am myself a graduate apprentice of \marine steel fabrication and I turned down a request by the State of Washington to work for the apprecnticeship office there. I am on a foreign computer and so it is too much hassel to spell right since the keys are spaced oddly for me, so bear with me.
Going to a weldinig school will not give you professional skills in welding, but is a great start, before I did my apprenticeship, I graduated from a 2 yr welding program 2k hours. What I recommend you buy plans from a marine arch who is known for their steel designs such as Bruce Roberts. Then I would tack your plates together and brace any that are bendy and hire an unemployed untion welder from the Boilermakers Union or The Steelworkers, or contact their retiree club and get a good job. I takes about 2yrs of full time work before someone doesn't need their hand held and then another 8yrs before they are a seasoned journeyman. I have seen so many scary built back yard welding jobs and your life or the life of future owners of your boat is in jeopardy if it isn't done right. At the very least to pay seasoned journeyman to check your work. Another source can be welding schools and the union apprenticeship schools might take your boat on as a
project. There is a sequence to welding and many of the skills you need can be found in the big black lincoln arc welding book. Designing a steel boat is different than designing a plywood boat. My real concern here is someone might take your advice and the chances of you building a shoddy dangerious steel boat is very high and you endangering your life and the life of your passengers, because you and I know that if you are cavilier about forgoing steel plans, getting proper training and hiring expert help where your skills are deficient. Then you will cut corners and ignore the danger and someone will get hurt and die.
I also have been hurt and have seen co workers die.
Then you need rigging skills and equipment. Corten steel will help with corrosion. I am not against small steel boats when using plans from a desingner known for his knowledge in that area. I bet that when Phil Bolger designed the couple of steel boats that he confired with friends knowldgable about them or at very least got their approval when done.
Designing and builing steel boats are a different beast and when you are talking about amataur steel boat construction, it was my job to train people to do it. There are many safety issues involved like proper tank pressures, or how the grease from your fingers can cause your tanks to explode or how how bench grinders explode. One real test for any of you considering building your own steel boat is to go to work for a union or non union boat yard and see if you even pass the test to get in the door or last more than a week! If you do pass and all they do is have you grind, it is because you do not have the skills or experience to build a sound boat.
I would hate to see any of you lose your sight, your body parts or your life and that danger is very real if you are a journeyman steel boat builder and insanely high from the cavilier attitude toward safety and the deliberately ignorant attitude from some of the posts.
From:Martin Roberts <martin.me.roberts@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wed, November 25, 2009 12:57:41 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: small steel boats Steel a bad idea
Col hasler Steel boat for OSTAR:
http://sports. webshots. com/album/ 203372942WjJNoW
Col hasler Steel boat for OSTAR:
http://sports.webshots.com/album/203372942WjJNoW
http://sports.webshots.com/album/203372942WjJNoW
RUST!!!
Surely steel is a wonderful material for many applications. For small boats, very thin light material can be used. The problem is, if the finish is imperfect or scratched, a salt environment will hole thin sheet steel in no time flat.
I believe it was Gerr, in "Boat Strength", who wrote that steel plate in boatbuilding is so heavy not for strength, but to provide a margin of safety for corrosion - and that the weight required makes it unattractive in small craft, up to 40' so.
Years ago, my brother brought home a 12' steel skiff - simple, rugged, a bit heavier than aluminum. Galvanized, as I recall. Worked fine for a year or so, but the bottom got all scratched up, and rusted completely out. Last I saw it, it was an eyesore of ragged rust, flopped up on the banking; I assume one of my cousins had to dispose of the hulk, but have always been afraid to ask!
Freshwater? probably fine, with a well-maintained finish.
Salt? I think rust is the limiting factor for most of us!
Sal's Dad
Surely steel is a wonderful material for many applications. For small boats, very thin light material can be used. The problem is, if the finish is imperfect or scratched, a salt environment will hole thin sheet steel in no time flat.
I believe it was Gerr, in "Boat Strength", who wrote that steel plate in boatbuilding is so heavy not for strength, but to provide a margin of safety for corrosion - and that the weight required makes it unattractive in small craft, up to 40' so.
Years ago, my brother brought home a 12' steel skiff - simple, rugged, a bit heavier than aluminum. Galvanized, as I recall. Worked fine for a year or so, but the bottom got all scratched up, and rusted completely out. Last I saw it, it was an eyesore of ragged rust, flopped up on the banking; I assume one of my cousins had to dispose of the hulk, but have always been afraid to ask!
Freshwater? probably fine, with a well-maintained finish.
Salt? I think rust is the limiting factor for most of us!
Sal's Dad
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
>
>
> Steel construction is very attractive to the Instant Boat builder. The results are very strong very fast. The maintenance issues are real, but one isn't going to lose a steel hull in one off season because of a leaky tarp letting water to pool in the bottom. Floatation is a serious issue, as is the lack of insulating value
>
Steel construction is very attractive to the Instant Boat builder. The results are very strong very fast. The maintenance issues are real, but one isn't going to lose a steel hull in one off season because of a leaky tarp letting water to pool in the bottom. Floatation is a serious issue, as is the lack of insulating value
Welding is a skill that will require practice to get the skill to the point you aren't just wrecking steel and can bet your life and money on the results. I own one of those easy to use wire feed welders. I can stick stuff together with some measure of reliability but don't consider myself to be even a "fair welder". The riskiest thing I've done is weld up super structure on my box trailer to the professionally welded base chassis. So far so good.
If I were to build a boat in steel, I'd sign up for a welding course at the local community college, and get much better than I am now. Then I would choose an "instant boat" design, IE "Lions Paw", Such designs are easier to keep straight.
I'd buy/rent a plasma cutter to prep the major panels. Then I'd hire a guy or two to come out and do all the major seams, IE where the sides and bottom meet, bulkheads, bow and stern transoms. I would use my newly acquired skills to weld in tabs for bolting on the wood and other components of the deck fittings, etc.
Don
Welding is a skill that will require practice to get the skill to the point you aren't just wrecking steel and can bet your life and money on the results. I own one of those easy to use wire feed welders. I can stick stuff together with some measure of reliability but don't consider myself to be even a "fair welder". The riskiest thing I've done is weld up super structure on my box trailer to the professionally welded base chassis. So far so good.
If I were to build a boat in steel, I'd sign up for a welding course at the local community college, and get much better than I am now. Then I would choose an "instant boat" design, IE "Lions Paw", Such designs are easier to keep straight.
I'd buy/rent a plasma cutter to prep the major panels. Then I'd hire a guy or two to come out and do all the major seams, IE where the sides and bottom meet, bulkheads, bow and stern transoms. I would use my newly acquired skills to weld in tabs for bolting on the wood and other components of the deck fittings, etc.
Don
> On a lot in Mathews county Virginia sets a 40ft steel sailboat boat
> built a fellow that was neither a boat builder or a welder. She is
> crooked. The story I was told was that he welded up one side and then
> the other. Even if he had not done that the welding looked like bird
> droppings. I built some 30 ft aluminum sailboats and I am a pretty
> fair welder but I hired a welder to do my welding for me. I cut and
> fitted and tacked a little here and there and left the rest to him. You
> can do it all yourself but it takes some steel boat building training
> some welding training and a lot of practice.
>
>
> Doug
>
Wilderness Voice wrote:
built a fellow that was neither a boat builder or a welder. She is
crooked. The story I was told was that he welded up one side and then
the other. Even if he had not done that the welding looked like bird
droppings. I built some 30 ft aluminum sailboats and I am a pretty
fair welder but I hired a welder to do my welding for me. I cut and
fitted and tacked a little here and there and left the rest to him. You
can do it all yourself but it takes some steel boat building training
some welding training and a lot of practice.
Doug
>On a lot in Mathews county Virginia sets a 40ft steel sailboat boat
> Bryant:
> my opinion is based on 30yrs of steel boat building, I suspect that
> yours and Bill's is based on wishful thinking and desire.
> I would say that if I were not retired and I shared this discussion
> with my co workers there would be alot of laughter going on.
> I have no doubt you can make a vessel to float, but boat design and
> esp steel boat design is a compremise of many factors. I think Bruce
> Roberts has a book out on steel boat design. I will also admit to
> being the training coordinator for the largest private shipyared on
> the west coast and to writing text books to train Union workers in
> Apprenticeships.
> I do not discount wishful thinking and desire in boat building. I
> think they are a very important part of the experience of building
> your own small boat, but we do a disservice to the poster of this
> thread to answer his question with wishful thinking and with desire,
> but instead to point him to sound proven ideas and avenues to help him
> realize his dream to have a boat he and his family can enjoy as
> opposed to a costly failed and possibly dangerious experiement
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Bryant O <mariner@...>
> *To:*bolger@yahoogroups.com
> *Sent:* Tue, November 24, 2009 12:15:45 PM
> *Subject:* [bolger] Re: small steel boats bad idea
>
>
>
> I suspect a lot of the under 20' ply designs convert over to steel
> much more readily than they would to aluminum. So maybe the designs
> are there, just not being used for steel.
>
> Bryant
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "griff10us" <griff10us@. ..> wrote:
> >
> > At one time I owned a 16' steel outboard utility boat that performed
> very much like it's aluminum cousin, weighed only slightly more than
> the average aluminum one, like 20 lbs. more. Steel is actually quite a
> bit lighter than uncored fiberglass and there are lots of decent boats
> under 20' built of that.
> >
> > Just because there are few designs available doesn't in any way make
> the material unsuitable.
> >
> > Bill H.
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Wilderness Voice <thewildernessvoice @> wrote:
> > >
> > > \i guess it is all how we define small boats. The fact is that
> there are really no good designs for steel boats under twenty feet
> loa. Now if you want to have a sandbox that floats and make it out of
> steel then of course you can build a boat that floats. If you want
> any kind of performace, from sailing, rowing or motoring it is a
> different story. I think the lifeboat example is perfect, all it has
> to do is float and people survive, but it is not intended as a
> pleasure boat. I think we are doing a disservice to the poster who I
> assume wants a boat for work and pleasure and expects it to perform in
> some way other than just float. When you get to twenty feet and above
> loa, then the practicality of a steel vessel is realized.
> > > I love steel boats, \i built them and repaired them for thirty
> years, I am most comfortable working in steel, but there are reasons
> why we do not see practical performance with steel with small boats.
> Better to build in wood
> > >
> >
>
>
>
built a fellow that was neither a boat builder or a welder. She is
crooked. The story I was told was that he welded up one side and then
the other. Even if he had not done that the welding looked like bird
droppings. I built some 30 ft aluminum sailboats and I am a pretty
fair welder but I hired a welder to do my welding for me. I cut and
fitted and tacked a little here and there and left the rest to him. You
can do it all yourself but it takes some steel boat building training
some welding training and a lot of practice.
Doug
Bryant:
my opinion is based on 30yrs of steel boat building, I suspect that yours and Bill's is based on wishful thinking and desire.
I would say that if I were not retired and I shared this discussion with my co workers there would be alot of laughter going on.
I have no doubt you can make a vessel to float, but boat design and esp steel boat design is a compremise of many factors. I think Bruce Roberts has a book out on steel boat design. I will also admit to being the training coordinator for the largest private shipyared on the west coast and to writing text books to train Union workers in Apprenticeships.
I do not discount wishful thinking and desire in boat building. I think they are a very important part of the experience of building your own small boat, but we do a disservice to the poster of this thread to answer his question with wishful thinking and with desire, but instead to point him to sound proven ideas and avenues to help him realize his dream to have a boat he and his family can enjoy as opposed to a costly failed and possibly dangerious experiement
From:Bryant O <mariner@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Tue, November 24, 2009 12:15:45 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: small steel boats bad idea
I suspect a lot of the under 20' ply designs convert over to steel much more readily than they would to aluminum. So maybe the designs are there, just not being used for steel.
Bryant
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "griff10us" <griff10us@. ..> wrote:
>
> At one time I owned a 16' steel outboard utility boat that performed very much like it's aluminum cousin, weighed only slightly more than the average aluminum one, like 20 lbs. more. Steel is actually quite a bit lighter than uncored fiberglass and there are lots of decent boats under 20' built of that.
>
> Just because there are few designs available doesn't in any way make the material unsuitable.
>
> Bill H.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, Wilderness Voice <thewildernessvoice @> wrote:
> >
> > \i guess it is all how we define small boats. The fact is that there are really no good designs for steel boats under twenty feet loa. Now if you want to have a sandbox that floats and make it out of steel then of course you can build a boat that floats. If you want any kind of performace, from sailing, rowing or motoring it is a different story. I think the lifeboat example is perfect, all it has to do is float and people survive, but it is not intended as a pleasure boat. I think we are doing a disservice to the poster who I assume wants a boat for work and pleasure and expects it to perform in some way other than just float. When you get to twenty feet and above loa, then the practicality of a steel vessel is realized.
> > I love steel boats, \i built them and repaired them for thirty years, I am most comfortable working in steel, but there are reasons why we do not see practical performance with steel with small boats. Better to build in wood
> >
>
I suspect a lot of the under 20' ply designs convert over to steel much more readily than they would to aluminum. So maybe the designs are there, just not being used for steel.
Bryant
Bryant
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "griff10us" <griff10us@...> wrote:
>
> At one time I owned a 16' steel outboard utility boat that performed very much like it's aluminum cousin, weighed only slightly more than the average aluminum one, like 20 lbs. more. Steel is actually quite a bit lighter than uncored fiberglass and there are lots of decent boats under 20' built of that.
>
> Just because there are few designs available doesn't in any way make the material unsuitable.
>
> Bill H.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wilderness Voice <thewildernessvoice@> wrote:
> >
> > \i guess it is all how we define small boats. The fact is that there are really no good designs for steel boats under twenty feet loa. Now if you want to have a sandbox that floats and make it out of steel then of course you can build a boat that floats. If you want any kind of performace, from sailing, rowing or motoring it is a different story. I think the lifeboat example is perfect, all it has to do is float and people survive, but it is not intended as a pleasure boat. I think we are doing a disservice to the poster who I assume wants a boat for work and pleasure and expects it to perform in some way other than just float. When you get to twenty feet and above loa, then the practicality of a steel vessel is realized.
> > I love steel boats, \i built them and repaired them for thirty years, I am most comfortable working in steel, but there are reasons why we do not see practical performance with steel with small boats. Better to build in wood
> >
>
At one time I owned a 16' steel outboard utility boat that performed very much like it's aluminum cousin, weighed only slightly more than the average aluminum one, like 20 lbs. more. Steel is actually quite a bit lighter than uncored fiberglass and there are lots of decent boats under 20' built of that.
Just because there are few designs available doesn't in any way make the material unsuitable.
Bill H.
Just because there are few designs available doesn't in any way make the material unsuitable.
Bill H.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wilderness Voice <thewildernessvoice@...> wrote:
>
> \i guess it is all how we define small boats. The fact is that there are really no good designs for steel boats under twenty feet loa. Now if you want to have a sandbox that floats and make it out of steel then of course you can build a boat that floats. If you want any kind of performace, from sailing, rowing or motoring it is a different story. I think the lifeboat example is perfect, all it has to do is float and people survive, but it is not intended as a pleasure boat. I think we are doing a disservice to the poster who I assume wants a boat for work and pleasure and expects it to perform in some way other than just float. When you get to twenty feet and above loa, then the practicality of a steel vessel is realized.
> I love steel boats, \i built them and repaired them for thirty years, I am most comfortable working in steel, but there are reasons why we do not see practical performance with steel with small boats. Better to build in wood
>
\i guess it is all how we define small boats. The fact is that there are really no good designs for steel boats under twenty feet loa. Now if you want to have a sandbox that floats and make it out of steel then of course you can build a boat that floats. If you want any kind of performace, from sailing, rowing or motoring it is a different story. I think the lifeboat example is perfect, all it has to do is float and people survive, but it is not intended as a pleasure boat. I think we are doing a disservice to the poster who I assume wants a boat for work and pleasure and expects it to perform in some way other than just float. When you get to twenty feet and above loa, then the practicality of a steel vessel is realized.
I love steel boats, \i built them and repaired them for thirty years, I am most comfortable working in steel, but there are reasons why we do not see practical performance with steel with small boats. Better to build in wood