Re: Reply to Susan Alum welding

> It's funny I have been working in machine shops all my life and did not
> no that grinding aluminum on a grinder could cause it to blow up. I just
> thought you didn't do it because it clogged up the wheel, Never too old
> to learn something. It sure makes sense that somebody could get hurt
> that way.
> Doug
>

>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Doug Jackson <svseeker@...
> <mailto:svseeker@...>> wrote:
>
> Aluminum in a word is awesome. And it's doable for a novice (me)
> even down to 1/8" sheet with $1K of MIG equipment. Here are the
> lessons I've been taught:
>http://www.submarineboat.com/welding_aluminum.htm
> <http://www.submarineboat.com/welding_aluminum.htm>
>
>
> And of course you can sell the equipment when you are done building
> the boat -- if you buy used and take care of it, you can probably
> recoup most (if not all) of the money you spend on it.
>
>
> There is a rule about not mixing steel and aluminum tools so you
> don't contaminate the aluminum with steel, but aluminium would
> only gum up a regular grinding wheel. I have an aluminum grinding
> disc, "Flexcel" on an old motor that works great for grinding.
> AirGas sells them for $10 each, but they last a good while.
>
>
> No, it's worse than that. My understanding is that the bits of smeared
> aluminum get down between the grains of s wheel meant for steel and
> that when they heat up again, they can expand enough to fracture the
> wheel. And that's just a bad day. Use the right tools for the job and
> things will go better.
>
> -p
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.89/2539 - Release Date: 12/01/09 19:32:00
>
>

> I have thousands of hours welding and fabricating alum. I started out
> in the shipyard builing the Fast Frigates (FFG) for the US Navy. The
> superstructure is all alum. The big problem for the home fabricator is
> keeping it clean and keeping the wind out so you don't get porosity.
> In addition you cannot grind alum on a bench grinder set up for steel
> without danger. Alum has many advantages for the home builder since
> you can put an alum saw blade in a circular saw and use the common
> tools to fabricate with. There is the added cost of alum over plywood.
> My advice still stands though, you have to realize that if the cost of
> the equipment is folded into the cost of the boat it can be
> prohibitive. I know a guy a PSF Industries in Seattle that lost his
> eye from someone having ground alum on the bench grinder there and he
> went and ground steel and it exploded. Learning the safety rules and
> procedures is easy for anyone that picks up any number of books on
> metal fabrication. I know too many people killed and injured by taking
> short cuts. I in turn have been injured by the short cuts of others,
> so take it very seriously, but not impossible to learn if the desire
> is there
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* oceannavagator <Mikieq@...>
> *To:*bolger@yahoogroups.com
> *Sent:* Tue, December 1, 2009 1:33:00 PM
> *Subject:* [bolger] Re: Reply to Susan
>
>
>
> I've been a certified welder for 35 years and I'd be more than happy
> to enlighten you on the in's and outs of the trade. Aluminum is the
> ideal material for metal boats. With modern equipment it welds as
> easily as steel and with the correct alloys and care it lasts forever.
> The dangers of welding can be mitigated by using a little common sense
> and proper attire. Aluminum fabrication is ten times cleaner than
> steel and the material can be cut and machined with woodworking tools.
> Also, aluminum is available practically anywhere unlike high quality
> boat building wood. Argon gas is nontoxic but it will displace oxygen
> in a closed in area so welders use exhaust fans to remove it. The
> welding equipment for thin sections is very reasonable in price. A
> small mig power source with a spoolgun runs about 1500 bucks, a spool
> of wire is about 5 bucks and argon gas costs 40 dollars per fill up.
> Mike
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@.. .> wrote:
> >
> > Also don't forget the argon gas in mig and the oxygen-less gas created
> > by the flux on welding rodes and flux cored wire is deadly so if you
> are
> > welding inside a boat you need to change the air now and then this may
> > mean a fan that does not blow toward your welding. You could die and
> > never know it until you hear the angels sing. Every now and then in
> > shipyards a welder used to die from going into a tight place where
> > welding gas has accumulated.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Douglas Pollard wrote:
> > > Fred I agree with you. I have owned and run a machine shop for a
> lot of
> > > years and we in that business train most of our employees
> ourselves and
> > > of course at some point most of them leave and go to large companies
> > > where the pay and benefits are better. AS a teenager I went through a
> > > shipyard welding school (flunked out) and we were not taught much of
> > > anything other than how to run a bead. I became a machinist instead.
> > > Welding is not rocket science and most welders learn in doing factory
> > > maintenance and on the farm or in an Automotive shops. A good book if
> > > you want to bother can teach all that is needed to learn the
> technical
> > > side of it. Yes there are pitfalls and things to learn so that an
> > > acetylene torch doesn't back burn and blow your hand off and
> that's for
> > > sure. There are good books out there on steel boat building by Tom
> > > Colvin and Gill Clingle and a host of others where you can learn
> all you
> > > need to know about welding up a boat. I think anyone who has built in
> > > wood can also build in steel if they take the time to study a
> little and
> > > practice some. Building in aluminum is a little different in that it
> > > takes a heck of a lot more practice and know how. For that I would
> hire
> > > a good welder who has welded boats before. For one thing he will weld
> > > with a water cooled mig machine that can weld about 6ft a minute as
> > > compared to one of us sputtering a long with a cheap lit mig machine
> > > that is constantly over heating and jamming up.
> > > When comes to designing a boat the information is all out there
> for the
> > > designer to use and there is no reason they should not be able to
> design
> > > in steel or aluminum boat. For most of us at least in small boats, I
> > > don't see much point in it as we for the most part we can get all the
> > > plywood we want pretty cheap. Where bigger boats are concerned
> metal is
> > > great stuff you can build a 40ft sailboat in the backyard with out
> even
> > > so much as a shed roof. Just don't weld when the wind is blowing.
> > > Building in metal is dirty, heavy and nasty work. Since most metal
> boats
> > > rust out from the inside they really should be sandblasted on the
> > > inside. What a hell of a job that is, it requires a sandblasting
> suite
> > > with outside air pumped in. Small sections should be blasted and then
> > > coated as corrosion begins right away. This is even more critical
> in a
> > > aluminum.
> > > If you build a small metal boat the material will have to be light to
> > > keep the weight down and there in lies the problem. Welding thin
> > > material is hard. It warps from the shrinkage of the weld bead and
> > > puckers at every frame and stringer. I am a decent welder and I would
> > > not attempt it. I might try welding 1/8 steel but the really thin
> steel
> > > needed to weld a small boat is out of my league. I suspect that most
> > > small metal boats built by less than highly skilled welders will
> be more
> > > body putty the steel.
> > > Now I think a small aluminum boat riveted might be another story. It
> > > would be little harder than stitch and glue but reqires two
> people, one
> > > to rivet and one to buck. With modern metal glues you likely don't
> even
> > > need the rivets except as a failsafe for the glue joint.
> > > There is also the possibility of laying up a hull of really thin
> > > aluminum layed and glued much as cold molding id done. A hull lay
> up in
> > > a cross diagonal pattern of 6 inch wide .010 inch thick aluminum
> could
> > > be shaped to almost any fine shape desired including a fine wine
> glass
> > > shaped hull. Todays glues are really the cats whiskers. When you
> > > consider a lot of modern airplanes are glued together they better
> be good.
> > > Doug
> > >
> > > Fred Schumacher wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Susanne@...
> > >> <mailto:Susanne@ ...> <philbolger@ ...
> > >> <mailto:philbolger@ ...>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
> > >> casual welding or even casual swapping construction- materials from
> > >> ply to steel.
> > >>
> > >> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
> > >> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
> > >> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
> > >> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be
> > >> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
> > >> essential tools on a modern farm.
> > >> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these
> > >> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to
> experts.
> > >> Fred Schumacher
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups.
> com <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!
> Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.89/2539 - Release Date: 12/01/09 19:32:00
>
>

On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Doug Jackson <svseeker@ymail. com> wrote:

>Aluminum in a word is awesome. And it's doable for a novice (me) even down to 1/8" sheet with $1K of MIG equipment. Here are the lessons I've been taught:http://www.submarineboat.com/welding_aluminum.htm

And of course you can sell the equipment when you are done building the boat -- if you buy used and take care of it, you can probably recoup most (if not all) of the money you spend on it.


>>There is a rule about not mixing steel and aluminum tools so you don't contaminate the aluminum with steel, but aluminium would only gum up a regular grinding wheel. I have an aluminum grinding disc, "Flexcel" on an old motor that works great for grinding. AirGas sells them for $10 each, but they last a good while.

No, it's worse than that. My understanding is that the bits of smeared aluminum get down between the grains of s wheel meant for steel and that when they heat up again, they can expand enough to fracture the wheel. And that's just a bad day. Use the right tools for the job and things will go better.

-p

On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Doug Jackson<svseeker@...>wrote:

Aluminum in a word is awesome.  And it's doable for a novice (me) even down to 1/8" sheet with $1K of MIG equipment.  Here are the lessons I've been taught:http://www.submarineboat.com/welding_aluminum.htm

And of course you can sell the equipment when you are done building the boat -- if you buy used and take care of it, you can probably recoup most (if not all) of the money you spend on it.

There is a rule about not mixing steel and aluminum tools so you don't contaminate the aluminum with steel, but aluminium would only gum up a regular grinding wheel.  I have an aluminum grinding disc, "Flexcel" on an old motor that works great for grinding.  AirGas sells them for $10 each, but they last a good while.

No, it's worse than that. My understanding is that the bits of smeared aluminum get down between the grains of s wheel meant for steel and that when they heat up again, they can expand enough to fracture the wheel. And that's just a bad day. Use the right tools for the job and things will go better.

-p

--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@.. .> wrote:
>
> Also don't forget the argon gas in mig and the oxygen-less gas created
> by the flux on welding rodes and flux cored wire is deadly so if you are
> welding inside a boat you need to change the air now and then this may
> mean a fan that does not blow toward your welding. You could die and
> never know it until you hear the angels sing. Every now and then in
> shipyards a welder used to die from going into a tight place where
> welding gas has accumulated.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
>
> Douglas Pollard wrote:
> > Fred I agree with you. I have owned and run a machine shop for a lot of
> > years and we in that business train most of our employees ourselves and
> > of course at some point most of them leave and go to large companies
> > where the pay and benefits are better. AS a teenager I went through a
> > shipyard welding school (flunked out) and we were not taught much of
> > anything other than how to run a bead. I became a machinist instead.
> > Welding is not rocket science and most welders learn in doing factory
> > maintenance and on the farm or in an Automotive shops. A good book if
> > you want to bother can teach all that is needed to learn the technical
> > side of it. Yes there are pitfalls and things to learn so that an
> > acetylene torch doesn't back burn and blow your hand off and that's for
> > sure. There are good books out there on steel boat building by Tom
> > Colvin and Gill Clingle and a host of others where you can learn all you
> > need to know about welding up a boat. I think anyone who has built in
> > wood can also build in steel if they take the time to study a little and
> > practice some. Building in aluminum is a little different in that it
> > takes a heck of a lot more practice and know how. For that I would hire
> > a good welder who has welded boats before. For one thing he will weld
> > with a water cooled mig machine that can weld about 6ft a minute as
> > compared to one of us sputtering a long with a cheap lit mig machine
> > that is constantly over heating and jamming up.
> > When comes to designing a boat the information is all out there for the
> > designer to use and there is no reason they should not be able to design
> > in steel or aluminum boat. For most of us at least in small boats, I
> > don't see much point in it as we for the most part we can get all the
> > plywood we want pretty cheap. Where bigger boats are concerned metal is
> > great stuff you can build a 40ft sailboat in the backyard with out even
> > so much as a shed roof. Just don't weld when the wind is blowing.
> > Building in metal is dirty, heavy and nasty work. Since most metal boats
> > rust out from the inside they really should be sandblasted on the
> > inside. What a hell of a job that is, it requires a sandblasting suite
> > with outside air pumped in. Small sections should be blasted and then
> > coated as corrosion begins right away. This is even more critical in a
> > aluminum.
> > If you build a small metal boat the material will have to be light to
> > keep the weight down and there in lies the problem. Welding thin
> > material is hard. It warps from the shrinkage of the weld bead and
> > puckers at every frame and stringer. I am a decent welder and I would
> > not attempt it. I might try welding 1/8 steel but the really thin steel
> > needed to weld a small boat is out of my league. I suspect that most
> > small metal boats built by less than highly skilled welders will be more
> > body putty the steel.
> > Now I think a small aluminum boat riveted might be another story. It
> > would be little harder than stitch and glue but reqires two people, one
> > to rivet and one to buck. With modern metal glues you likely don't even
> > need the rivets except as a failsafe for the glue joint.
> > There is also the possibility of laying up a hull of really thin
> > aluminum layed and glued much as cold molding id done. A hull lay up in
> > a cross diagonal pattern of 6 inch wide .010 inch thick aluminum could
> > be shaped to almost any fine shape desired including a fine wine glass
> > shaped hull. Todays glues are really the cats whiskers. When you
> > consider a lot of modern airplanes are glued together they better be good.
> > Doug
> >
> > Fred Schumacher wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Susanne@...
> >> <mailto:Susanne@ ...> <philbolger@ ...
> >> <mailto:philbolger@ ...>> wrote:
> >>
> >> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
> >> casual welding or even casual swapping construction- materials from
> >> ply to steel.
> >>
> >> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
> >> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
> >> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
> >> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be
> >> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
> >> essential tools on a modern farm.
> >> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these
> >> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to experts.
> >> Fred Schumacher
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. com Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
>
> Also don't forget the argon gas in mig and the oxygen-less gas created
> by the flux on welding rodes and flux cored wire is deadly so if you are
> welding inside a boat you need to change the air now and then this may
> mean a fan that does not blow toward your welding. You could die and
> never know it until you hear the angels sing. Every now and then in
> shipyards a welder used to die from going into a tight place where
> welding gas has accumulated.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
>
> Douglas Pollard wrote:
> > Fred I agree with you. I have owned and run a machine shop for a lot of
> > years and we in that business train most of our employees ourselves and
> > of course at some point most of them leave and go to large companies
> > where the pay and benefits are better. AS a teenager I went through a
> > shipyard welding school (flunked out) and we were not taught much of
> > anything other than how to run a bead. I became a machinist instead.
> > Welding is not rocket science and most welders learn in doing factory
> > maintenance and on the farm or in an Automotive shops. A good book if
> > you want to bother can teach all that is needed to learn the technical
> > side of it. Yes there are pitfalls and things to learn so that an
> > acetylene torch doesn't back burn and blow your hand off and that's for
> > sure. There are good books out there on steel boat building by Tom
> > Colvin and Gill Clingle and a host of others where you can learn all you
> > need to know about welding up a boat. I think anyone who has built in
> > wood can also build in steel if they take the time to study a little and
> > practice some. Building in aluminum is a little different in that it
> > takes a heck of a lot more practice and know how. For that I would hire
> > a good welder who has welded boats before. For one thing he will weld
> > with a water cooled mig machine that can weld about 6ft a minute as
> > compared to one of us sputtering a long with a cheap lit mig machine
> > that is constantly over heating and jamming up.
> > When comes to designing a boat the information is all out there for the
> > designer to use and there is no reason they should not be able to design
> > in steel or aluminum boat. For most of us at least in small boats, I
> > don't see much point in it as we for the most part we can get all the
> > plywood we want pretty cheap. Where bigger boats are concerned metal is
> > great stuff you can build a 40ft sailboat in the backyard with out even
> > so much as a shed roof. Just don't weld when the wind is blowing.
> > Building in metal is dirty, heavy and nasty work. Since most metal boats
> > rust out from the inside they really should be sandblasted on the
> > inside. What a hell of a job that is, it requires a sandblasting suite
> > with outside air pumped in. Small sections should be blasted and then
> > coated as corrosion begins right away. This is even more critical in a
> > aluminum.
> > If you build a small metal boat the material will have to be light to
> > keep the weight down and there in lies the problem. Welding thin
> > material is hard. It warps from the shrinkage of the weld bead and
> > puckers at every frame and stringer. I am a decent welder and I would
> > not attempt it. I might try welding 1/8 steel but the really thin steel
> > needed to weld a small boat is out of my league. I suspect that most
> > small metal boats built by less than highly skilled welders will be more
> > body putty the steel.
> > Now I think a small aluminum boat riveted might be another story. It
> > would be little harder than stitch and glue but reqires two people, one
> > to rivet and one to buck. With modern metal glues you likely don't even
> > need the rivets except as a failsafe for the glue joint.
> > There is also the possibility of laying up a hull of really thin
> > aluminum layed and glued much as cold molding id done. A hull lay up in
> > a cross diagonal pattern of 6 inch wide .010 inch thick aluminum could
> > be shaped to almost any fine shape desired including a fine wine glass
> > shaped hull. Todays glues are really the cats whiskers. When you
> > consider a lot of modern airplanes are glued together they better be good.
> > Doug
> >
> > Fred Schumacher wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Susanne@...
> >> <mailto:Susanne@...> <philbolger@...
> >> <mailto:philbolger@...>> wrote:
> >>
> >> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
> >> casual welding or even casual swapping construction-materials from
> >> ply to steel.
> >>
> >> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
> >> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
> >> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
> >> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be
> >> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
> >> essential tools on a modern farm.
> >> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these
> >> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to experts.
> >> Fred Schumacher
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

> >
>

>
> That sounds about like what I've used -- bead blast followed by etch
> and a final clean. IIRC, it also has to be done shortly before gluing
> or you've got to do it again -- something about the reformation of the
> oxide layer. When it's done right, it's really strong... you can get
> better joint performance than with rivets due to the lack of stress
> concentrations and the relatively large surface area. I'd be
> interested to hear if anyone did it successfully... but it's probably
> a science project.
>
>
> -p
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...
> <mailto:dougpol1@...>> wrote:
>
> I guess that kind of answeres the glueing metal thing. I don't
> remember
> much about it as My welder did most of the work with the instructions
> the engineers gave him. We did sandblast the metal with micro sand or
> glass beads or something. I think they also tried a product call
> luminator that is an acid or costic to etch the metal in
> preperation for
> gluing. We really never got very far with the project. I know this the
> finished product was very strong.
> Doug
>
>
>
> Pierce Nichols wrote:
> >
> > I've done a little work with aluminum adhesive bonding, and most of
> > the adhesives I've heard of are forms of epoxy. They are *NOT*
> easy to
> > use. In particular they require excellent fit-up and complex,
> > difficult surface preparation in order to develop their rated
> > strength. It's the kind of thing that's reasonable if you're
> building
> > airplanes (where those requirement are already common), but it's a
> > very long way from wood/epoxy.
> >
> >
> > Riveting, however, is a perfectly reasonable approach for thin-gauge
> > metal structures. Self-plugging blind rivets might even be usable,
> > which would remove the need for someone to hold the bucking bar.
> > Cherry Q rivets are structural self-plugging rivets available in a
> > variety of materials. Not sure that any of the commonly
> available ones
> > are a usable combo, however.
> >
> > -p
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Gene Tehansky
> > <goldranger02-boats@...
> <mailto:goldranger02-boats@...>
> <mailto:goldranger02-boats@...
> <mailto:goldranger02-boats@...>>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Doug,
> > What types of glues are you referring to? Are they forms of epoxy?
> >
> > Gene T.
> >
> > On 30 Nov, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Douglas Pollard wrote:
> >
> > > Fred I agree with you. I have owned and run a machine shop for
> a lot
> > > of
> > > years and we in that business train most of our employees
> ourselves
> > > and
> > > of course at some point most of them leave and go to large
> companies
> > > where the pay and benefits are better. AS a teenager I went
> > through a
> > > shipyard welding school (flunked out) and we were not taught
> much of
> > > anything other than how to run a bead. I became a machinist
> instead.
> > > Welding is not rocket science and most welders learn in doing
> > factory
> > > maintenance and on the farm or in an Automotive shops. A good
> > book if
> > > you want to bother can teach all that is needed to learn the
> > technical
> > > side of it. Yes there are pitfalls and things to learn so that an
> > > acetylene torch doesn't back burn and blow your hand off and
> that's
> > > for
> > > sure. There are good books out there on steel boat building by Tom
> > > Colvin and Gill Clingle and a host of others where you can
> learn all
> > > you
> > > need to know about welding up a boat. I think anyone who has
> > built in
> > > wood can also build in steel if they take the time to study a
> little
> > > and
> > > practice some. Building in aluminum is a little different in
> that it
> > > takes a heck of a lot more practice and know how. For that I would
> > > hire
> > > a good welder who has welded boats before. For one thing he will
> > weld
> > > with a water cooled mig machine that can weld about 6ft a
> minute as
> > > compared to one of us sputtering a long with a cheap lit mig
> machine
> > > that is constantly over heating and jamming up.
> > > When comes to designing a boat the information is all out
> there for
> > > the
> > > designer to use and there is no reason they should not be able to
> > > design
> > > in steel or aluminum boat. For most of us at least in small
> boats, I
> > > don't see much point in it as we for the most part we can get
> > all the
> > > plywood we want pretty cheap. Where bigger boats are concerned
> metal
> > > is
> > > great stuff you can build a 40ft sailboat in the backyard with out
> > > even
> > > so much as a shed roof. Just don't weld when the wind is blowing.
> > > Building in metal is dirty, heavy and nasty work. Since most metal
> > > boats
> > > rust out from the inside they really should be sandblasted on the
> > > inside. What a hell of a job that is, it requires a sandblasting
> > suite
> > > with outside air pumped in. Small sections should be blasted and
> > then
> > > coated as corrosion begins right away. This is even more
> > critical in a
> > > aluminum.
> > > If you build a small metal boat the material will have to be
> > light to
> > > keep the weight down and there in lies the problem. Welding thin
> > > material is hard. It warps from the shrinkage of the weld bead and
> > > puckers at every frame and stringer. I am a decent welder and I
> > would
> > > not attempt it. I might try welding 1/8 steel but the really thin
> > > steel
> > > needed to weld a small boat is out of my league. I suspect
> that most
> > > small metal boats built by less than highly skilled welders
> will be
> > > more
> > > body putty the steel.
> > > Now I think a small aluminum boat riveted might be another
> story. It
> > > would be little harder than stitch and glue but reqires two
> people,
> > > one
> > > to rivet and one to buck. With modern metal glues you likely don't
> > > even
> > > need the rivets except as a failsafe for the glue joint.
> > > There is also the possibility of laying up a hull of really thin
> > > aluminum layed and glued much as cold molding id done. A hull
> lay up
> > > in
> > > a cross diagonal pattern of 6 inch wide .010 inch thick aluminum
> > could
> > > be shaped to almost any fine shape desired including a fine wine
> > glass
> > > shaped hull. Todays glues are really the cats whiskers. When you
> > > consider a lot of modern airplanes are glued together they
> better be
> > > good.
> > > Doug
> > >
> > > Fred Schumacher wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM,Susanne@...
> <mailto:Susanne@...>
> > <mailto:Susanne@...<mailto:Susanne@...>>
> > >> <mailto:Susanne@...<mailto:Susanne@...>
> <mailto:Susanne@...<mailto:Susanne@...>>>
> > <philbolger@...<mailto:philbolger@...>
> <mailto:philbolger@...<mailto:philbolger@...>>
> > >> <mailto:philbolger@...<mailto:philbolger@...>
> > <mailto:philbolger@...
> <mailto:philbolger@...>>>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
> > >> casual welding or even casual swapping construction-materials
> from
> > >> ply to steel.
> > >>
> > >> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
> > >> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
> > >> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
> > >> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and
> not be
> > >> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
> > >> essential tools on a modern farm.
> > >> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier
> these
> > >> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to
> > >> experts.
> > >> Fred Schumacher
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> > > dead horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > > posts
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930,
> > > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>>
> > > - Open discussion:
> >bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>>
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> > dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>>
> > - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>> Yahoo!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> > (Yahoo! ID required)
> >
> > <mailto:bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> <mailto:bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
>

>
> I've done a little work with aluminum adhesive bonding, and most of
> the adhesives I've heard of are forms of epoxy. They are *NOT* easy to
> use. In particular they require excellent fit-up and complex,
> difficult surface preparation in order to develop their rated
> strength. It's the kind of thing that's reasonable if you're building
> airplanes (where those requirement are already common), but it's a
> very long way from wood/epoxy.
>
>
> Riveting, however, is a perfectly reasonable approach for thin-gauge
> metal structures. Self-plugging blind rivets might even be usable,
> which would remove the need for someone to hold the bucking bar.
> Cherry Q rivets are structural self-plugging rivets available in a
> variety of materials. Not sure that any of the commonly available ones
> are a usable combo, however.
>
> -p
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Gene Tehansky
> <goldranger02-boats@...<mailto:goldranger02-boats@...>>
> wrote:
>
> Doug,
> What types of glues are you referring to? Are they forms of epoxy?
>
> Gene T.
>
> On 30 Nov, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
> > Fred I agree with you. I have owned and run a machine shop for a lot
> > of
> > years and we in that business train most of our employees ourselves
> > and
> > of course at some point most of them leave and go to large companies
> > where the pay and benefits are better. AS a teenager I went
> through a
> > shipyard welding school (flunked out) and we were not taught much of
> > anything other than how to run a bead. I became a machinist instead.
> > Welding is not rocket science and most welders learn in doing
> factory
> > maintenance and on the farm or in an Automotive shops. A good
> book if
> > you want to bother can teach all that is needed to learn the
> technical
> > side of it. Yes there are pitfalls and things to learn so that an
> > acetylene torch doesn't back burn and blow your hand off and that's
> > for
> > sure. There are good books out there on steel boat building by Tom
> > Colvin and Gill Clingle and a host of others where you can learn all
> > you
> > need to know about welding up a boat. I think anyone who has
> built in
> > wood can also build in steel if they take the time to study a little
> > and
> > practice some. Building in aluminum is a little different in that it
> > takes a heck of a lot more practice and know how. For that I would
> > hire
> > a good welder who has welded boats before. For one thing he will
> weld
> > with a water cooled mig machine that can weld about 6ft a minute as
> > compared to one of us sputtering a long with a cheap lit mig machine
> > that is constantly over heating and jamming up.
> > When comes to designing a boat the information is all out there for
> > the
> > designer to use and there is no reason they should not be able to
> > design
> > in steel or aluminum boat. For most of us at least in small boats, I
> > don't see much point in it as we for the most part we can get
> all the
> > plywood we want pretty cheap. Where bigger boats are concerned metal
> > is
> > great stuff you can build a 40ft sailboat in the backyard with out
> > even
> > so much as a shed roof. Just don't weld when the wind is blowing.
> > Building in metal is dirty, heavy and nasty work. Since most metal
> > boats
> > rust out from the inside they really should be sandblasted on the
> > inside. What a hell of a job that is, it requires a sandblasting
> suite
> > with outside air pumped in. Small sections should be blasted and
> then
> > coated as corrosion begins right away. This is even more
> critical in a
> > aluminum.
> > If you build a small metal boat the material will have to be
> light to
> > keep the weight down and there in lies the problem. Welding thin
> > material is hard. It warps from the shrinkage of the weld bead and
> > puckers at every frame and stringer. I am a decent welder and I
> would
> > not attempt it. I might try welding 1/8 steel but the really thin
> > steel
> > needed to weld a small boat is out of my league. I suspect that most
> > small metal boats built by less than highly skilled welders will be
> > more
> > body putty the steel.
> > Now I think a small aluminum boat riveted might be another story. It
> > would be little harder than stitch and glue but reqires two people,
> > one
> > to rivet and one to buck. With modern metal glues you likely don't
> > even
> > need the rivets except as a failsafe for the glue joint.
> > There is also the possibility of laying up a hull of really thin
> > aluminum layed and glued much as cold molding id done. A hull lay up
> > in
> > a cross diagonal pattern of 6 inch wide .010 inch thick aluminum
> could
> > be shaped to almost any fine shape desired including a fine wine
> glass
> > shaped hull. Todays glues are really the cats whiskers. When you
> > consider a lot of modern airplanes are glued together they better be
> > good.
> > Doug
> >
> > Fred Schumacher wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM,Susanne@...
> <mailto:Susanne@...>
> >> <mailto:Susanne@...<mailto:Susanne@...>>
> <philbolger@...<mailto:philbolger@...>
> >> <mailto:philbolger@...
> <mailto:philbolger@...>>> wrote:
> >>
> >> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
> >> casual welding or even casual swapping construction-materials from
> >> ply to steel.
> >>
> >> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
> >> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
> >> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
> >> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be
> >> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
> >> essential tools on a modern farm.
> >> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these
> >> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to
> >> experts.
> >> Fred Schumacher
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> > dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> > - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> <mailto:bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
>

>
> Doug,
> What types of glues are you referring to? Are they forms of epoxy?
>
> Gene T.
>
> On 30 Nov, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
> > Fred I agree with you. I have owned and run a machine shop for a lot
> > of
> > years and we in that business train most of our employees ourselves
> > and
> > of course at some point most of them leave and go to large companies
> > where the pay and benefits are better. AS a teenager I went through a
> > shipyard welding school (flunked out) and we were not taught much of
> > anything other than how to run a bead. I became a machinist instead.
> > Welding is not rocket science and most welders learn in doing factory
> > maintenance and on the farm or in an Automotive shops. A good book if
> > you want to bother can teach all that is needed to learn the technical
> > side of it. Yes there are pitfalls and things to learn so that an
> > acetylene torch doesn't back burn and blow your hand off and that's
> > for
> > sure. There are good books out there on steel boat building by Tom
> > Colvin and Gill Clingle and a host of others where you can learn all
> > you
> > need to know about welding up a boat. I think anyone who has built in
> > wood can also build in steel if they take the time to study a little
> > and
> > practice some. Building in aluminum is a little different in that it
> > takes a heck of a lot more practice and know how. For that I would
> > hire
> > a good welder who has welded boats before. For one thing he will weld
> > with a water cooled mig machine that can weld about 6ft a minute as
> > compared to one of us sputtering a long with a cheap lit mig machine
> > that is constantly over heating and jamming up.
> > When comes to designing a boat the information is all out there for
> > the
> > designer to use and there is no reason they should not be able to
> > design
> > in steel or aluminum boat. For most of us at least in small boats, I
> > don't see much point in it as we for the most part we can get all the
> > plywood we want pretty cheap. Where bigger boats are concerned metal
> > is
> > great stuff you can build a 40ft sailboat in the backyard with out
> > even
> > so much as a shed roof. Just don't weld when the wind is blowing.
> > Building in metal is dirty, heavy and nasty work. Since most metal
> > boats
> > rust out from the inside they really should be sandblasted on the
> > inside. What a hell of a job that is, it requires a sandblasting suite
> > with outside air pumped in. Small sections should be blasted and then
> > coated as corrosion begins right away. This is even more critical in a
> > aluminum.
> > If you build a small metal boat the material will have to be light to
> > keep the weight down and there in lies the problem. Welding thin
> > material is hard. It warps from the shrinkage of the weld bead and
> > puckers at every frame and stringer. I am a decent welder and I would
> > not attempt it. I might try welding 1/8 steel but the really thin
> > steel
> > needed to weld a small boat is out of my league. I suspect that most
> > small metal boats built by less than highly skilled welders will be
> > more
> > body putty the steel.
> > Now I think a small aluminum boat riveted might be another story. It
> > would be little harder than stitch and glue but reqires two people,
> > one
> > to rivet and one to buck. With modern metal glues you likely don't
> > even
> > need the rivets except as a failsafe for the glue joint.
> > There is also the possibility of laying up a hull of really thin
> > aluminum layed and glued much as cold molding id done. A hull lay up
> > in
> > a cross diagonal pattern of 6 inch wide .010 inch thick aluminum could
> > be shaped to almost any fine shape desired including a fine wine glass
> > shaped hull. Todays glues are really the cats whiskers. When you
> > consider a lot of modern airplanes are glued together they better be
> > good.
> > Doug
> >
> > Fred Schumacher wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM,Susanne@...
> <mailto:Susanne%40comcast.net>
> >> <mailto:Susanne@...<mailto:Susanne%40comcast.net>>
> <philbolger@...<mailto:philbolger%40comcast.net>
> >> <mailto:philbolger@...<mailto:philbolger%40comcast.net>>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
> >> casual welding or even casual swapping construction-materials from
> >> ply to steel.
> >>
> >> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
> >> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
> >> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
> >> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be
> >> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
> >> essential tools on a modern farm.
> >> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these
> >> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to
> >> experts.
> >> Fred Schumacher
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> > dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>

>
> Doug,
> What types of glues are you referring to? Are they forms of epoxy?
>
> Gene T.
>
> On 30 Nov, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
> > Fred I agree with you. I have owned and run a machine shop for a lot
> > of
> > years and we in that business train most of our employees ourselves
> > and
> > of course at some point most of them leave and go to large companies
> > where the pay and benefits are better. AS a teenager I went through a
> > shipyard welding school (flunked out) and we were not taught much of
> > anything other than how to run a bead. I became a machinist instead.
> > Welding is not rocket science and most welders learn in doing factory
> > maintenance and on the farm or in an Automotive shops. A good book if
> > you want to bother can teach all that is needed to learn the technical
> > side of it. Yes there are pitfalls and things to learn so that an
> > acetylene torch doesn't back burn and blow your hand off and that's
> > for
> > sure. There are good books out there on steel boat building by Tom
> > Colvin and Gill Clingle and a host of others where you can learn all
> > you
> > need to know about welding up a boat. I think anyone who has built in
> > wood can also build in steel if they take the time to study a little
> > and
> > practice some. Building in aluminum is a little different in that it
> > takes a heck of a lot more practice and know how. For that I would
> > hire
> > a good welder who has welded boats before. For one thing he will weld
> > with a water cooled mig machine that can weld about 6ft a minute as
> > compared to one of us sputtering a long with a cheap lit mig machine
> > that is constantly over heating and jamming up.
> > When comes to designing a boat the information is all out there for
> > the
> > designer to use and there is no reason they should not be able to
> > design
> > in steel or aluminum boat. For most of us at least in small boats, I
> > don't see much point in it as we for the most part we can get all the
> > plywood we want pretty cheap. Where bigger boats are concerned metal
> > is
> > great stuff you can build a 40ft sailboat in the backyard with out
> > even
> > so much as a shed roof. Just don't weld when the wind is blowing.
> > Building in metal is dirty, heavy and nasty work. Since most metal
> > boats
> > rust out from the inside they really should be sandblasted on the
> > inside. What a hell of a job that is, it requires a sandblasting suite
> > with outside air pumped in. Small sections should be blasted and then
> > coated as corrosion begins right away. This is even more critical in a
> > aluminum.
> > If you build a small metal boat the material will have to be light to
> > keep the weight down and there in lies the problem. Welding thin
> > material is hard. It warps from the shrinkage of the weld bead and
> > puckers at every frame and stringer. I am a decent welder and I would
> > not attempt it. I might try welding 1/8 steel but the really thin
> > steel
> > needed to weld a small boat is out of my league. I suspect that most
> > small metal boats built by less than highly skilled welders will be
> > more
> > body putty the steel.
> > Now I think a small aluminum boat riveted might be another story. It
> > would be little harder than stitch and glue but reqires two people,
> > one
> > to rivet and one to buck. With modern metal glues you likely don't
> > even
> > need the rivets except as a failsafe for the glue joint.
> > There is also the possibility of laying up a hull of really thin
> > aluminum layed and glued much as cold molding id done. A hull lay up
> > in
> > a cross diagonal pattern of 6 inch wide .010 inch thick aluminum could
> > be shaped to almost any fine shape desired including a fine wine glass
> > shaped hull. Todays glues are really the cats whiskers. When you
> > consider a lot of modern airplanes are glued together they better be
> > good.
> > Doug
> >
> > Fred Schumacher wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM,Susanne@...
> <mailto:Susanne%40comcast.net>
> >> <mailto:Susanne@...<mailto:Susanne%40comcast.net>>
> <philbolger@...<mailto:philbolger%40comcast.net>
> >> <mailto:philbolger@...<mailto:philbolger%40comcast.net>>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
> >> casual welding or even casual swapping construction-materials from
> >> ply to steel.
> >>
> >> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
> >> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
> >> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
> >> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be
> >> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
> >> essential tools on a modern farm.
> >> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these
> >> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to
> >> experts.
> >> Fred Schumacher
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> > dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>

On 30 Nov, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Douglas Pollard wrote:

> Fred I agree with you. I have owned and run a machine shop for a lot
> of
> years and we in that business train most of our employees ourselves
> and
> of course at some point most of them leave and go to large companies
> where the pay and benefits are better. AS a teenager I went through a
> shipyard welding school (flunked out) and we were not taught much of
> anything other than how to run a bead. I became a machinist instead.
> Welding is not rocket science and most welders learn in doing factory
> maintenance and on the farm or in an Automotive shops. A good book if
> you want to bother can teach all that is needed to learn the technical
> side of it. Yes there are pitfalls and things to learn so that an
> acetylene torch doesn't back burn and blow your hand off and that's
> for
> sure. There are good books out there on steel boat building by Tom
> Colvin and Gill Clingle and a host of others where you can learn all
> you
> need to know about welding up a boat. I think anyone who has built in
> wood can also build in steel if they take the time to study a little
> and
> practice some. Building in aluminum is a little different in that it
> takes a heck of a lot more practice and know how. For that I would
> hire
> a good welder who has welded boats before. For one thing he will weld
> with a water cooled mig machine that can weld about 6ft a minute as
> compared to one of us sputtering a long with a cheap lit mig machine
> that is constantly over heating and jamming up.
> When comes to designing a boat the information is all out there for
> the
> designer to use and there is no reason they should not be able to
> design
> in steel or aluminum boat. For most of us at least in small boats, I
> don't see much point in it as we for the most part we can get all the
> plywood we want pretty cheap. Where bigger boats are concerned metal
> is
> great stuff you can build a 40ft sailboat in the backyard with out
> even
> so much as a shed roof. Just don't weld when the wind is blowing.
> Building in metal is dirty, heavy and nasty work. Since most metal
> boats
> rust out from the inside they really should be sandblasted on the
> inside. What a hell of a job that is, it requires a sandblasting suite
> with outside air pumped in. Small sections should be blasted and then
> coated as corrosion begins right away. This is even more critical in a
> aluminum.
> If you build a small metal boat the material will have to be light to
> keep the weight down and there in lies the problem. Welding thin
> material is hard. It warps from the shrinkage of the weld bead and
> puckers at every frame and stringer. I am a decent welder and I would
> not attempt it. I might try welding 1/8 steel but the really thin
> steel
> needed to weld a small boat is out of my league. I suspect that most
> small metal boats built by less than highly skilled welders will be
> more
> body putty the steel.
> Now I think a small aluminum boat riveted might be another story. It
> would be little harder than stitch and glue but reqires two people,
> one
> to rivet and one to buck. With modern metal glues you likely don't
> even
> need the rivets except as a failsafe for the glue joint.
> There is also the possibility of laying up a hull of really thin
> aluminum layed and glued much as cold molding id done. A hull lay up
> in
> a cross diagonal pattern of 6 inch wide .010 inch thick aluminum could
> be shaped to almost any fine shape desired including a fine wine glass
> shaped hull. Todays glues are really the cats whiskers. When you
> consider a lot of modern airplanes are glued together they better be
> good.
> Doug
>
> Fred Schumacher wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM,Susanne@...
>> <mailto:Susanne@...> <philbolger@...
>> <mailto:philbolger@...>> wrote:
>>
>> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
>> casual welding or even casual swapping construction-materials from
>> ply to steel.
>>
>> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
>> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
>> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
>> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be
>> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
>> essential tools on a modern farm.
>> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these
>> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to
>> experts.
>> Fred Schumacher
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

> Fred I agree with you. I have owned and run a machine shop for a lot of
> years and we in that business train most of our employees ourselves and
> of course at some point most of them leave and go to large companies
> where the pay and benefits are better. AS a teenager I went through a
> shipyard welding school (flunked out) and we were not taught much of
> anything other than how to run a bead. I became a machinist instead.
> Welding is not rocket science and most welders learn in doing factory
> maintenance and on the farm or in an Automotive shops. A good book if
> you want to bother can teach all that is needed to learn the technical
> side of it. Yes there are pitfalls and things to learn so that an
> acetylene torch doesn't back burn and blow your hand off and that's for
> sure. There are good books out there on steel boat building by Tom
> Colvin and Gill Clingle and a host of others where you can learn all you
> need to know about welding up a boat. I think anyone who has built in
> wood can also build in steel if they take the time to study a little and
> practice some. Building in aluminum is a little different in that it
> takes a heck of a lot more practice and know how. For that I would hire
> a good welder who has welded boats before. For one thing he will weld
> with a water cooled mig machine that can weld about 6ft a minute as
> compared to one of us sputtering a long with a cheap lit mig machine
> that is constantly over heating and jamming up.
> When comes to designing a boat the information is all out there for the
> designer to use and there is no reason they should not be able to design
> in steel or aluminum boat. For most of us at least in small boats, I
> don't see much point in it as we for the most part we can get all the
> plywood we want pretty cheap. Where bigger boats are concerned metal is
> great stuff you can build a 40ft sailboat in the backyard with out even
> so much as a shed roof. Just don't weld when the wind is blowing.
> Building in metal is dirty, heavy and nasty work. Since most metal boats
> rust out from the inside they really should be sandblasted on the
> inside. What a hell of a job that is, it requires a sandblasting suite
> with outside air pumped in. Small sections should be blasted and then
> coated as corrosion begins right away. This is even more critical in a
> aluminum.
> If you build a small metal boat the material will have to be light to
> keep the weight down and there in lies the problem. Welding thin
> material is hard. It warps from the shrinkage of the weld bead and
> puckers at every frame and stringer. I am a decent welder and I would
> not attempt it. I might try welding 1/8 steel but the really thin steel
> needed to weld a small boat is out of my league. I suspect that most
> small metal boats built by less than highly skilled welders will be more
> body putty the steel.
> Now I think a small aluminum boat riveted might be another story. It
> would be little harder than stitch and glue but reqires two people, one
> to rivet and one to buck. With modern metal glues you likely don't even
> need the rivets except as a failsafe for the glue joint.
> There is also the possibility of laying up a hull of really thin
> aluminum layed and glued much as cold molding id done. A hull lay up in
> a cross diagonal pattern of 6 inch wide .010 inch thick aluminum could
> be shaped to almost any fine shape desired including a fine wine glass
> shaped hull. Todays glues are really the cats whiskers. When you
> consider a lot of modern airplanes are glued together they better be good.
> Doug
>
> Fred Schumacher wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM,Susanne@...
>> <mailto:Susanne@...> <philbolger@...
>> <mailto:philbolger@...>> wrote:
>>
>> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
>> casual welding or even casual swapping construction-materials from
>> ply to steel.
>>
>> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
>> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
>> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
>> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be
>> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
>> essential tools on a modern farm.
>> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these
>> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to experts.
>> Fred Schumacher
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM,Susanne@...
> <mailto:Susanne@...> <philbolger@...
> <mailto:philbolger@...>> wrote:
>
> W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about
> casual welding or even casual swapping construction-materials from
> ply to steel.
>
> I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a
> retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of
> non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of
> welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be
> able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely
> essential tools on a modern farm.
> With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these
> days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to experts.
> Fred Schumacher
>

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM,Susanne@...<philbolger@...>wrote:

W.V. I agree with your serious note of serious caution about casual welding or even casual swapping construction-materials from ply to steel.

I agree too about some dangers inherent in welding; however, as a retired farmer, I have to state that there are thousands of non-professional welders out there doing quite creditable jobs of welding. It's virtually impossible to be a farmer today and not be able to weld or use a cutting torch. Those are two absolutely essential tools on a modern farm.

With the ready availability of wire welders, it's much easier these days to weld light gauge steel. But leave the aluminum work to experts.

Fred Schumacher

----- Original Message -----

From:Wilderness Voice

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Sunday, November 29, 2009 8:56 PM

Subject:[bolger] Reply to Susan

 

The subject of steel boat building has migrated in discussion. Originally it was a response to a boat desire from someone who didn't have access to plywood. There are many dangers inherent with steel boat building and many skills to Master. I have looked at the wiring of the Depression era farmers who did their own wiring, welding and so on. Often it was done dangerously thru ignorance. Now even in woodworking we can easily amputate hands or get chemical poisoning etc, but if someone wants to build with steel, they should use plans by someone who is trained to design in steel. Then  be able to pass an smaw1 test. There are safety factors with burning like the fact that skin oil can cause an acetylene tank to explode and they have or to find out the proper pressures for cutting (10lbs fuel, 40lbs air, which are the default pressures in industry). So there is quite a learning curve, we haven't even discussed rigging (not sail rigging, but moving steel rigging). The fact is that professionals with yrs of experience and knowledge are maimed and killed and I have known too many of each. Many of the people who attempt to build in steel will grind alum  and then grind steel on the same grinding wheel not knowing they just created a bomb!
I have been fortunate to survive my injuries, but I know what it feels like to have your hand crushed and 3rd degree burns I have had many. The argument that you can just transfer plywood designs into steel are like saying anyone can design boats as good as Phil Bolger. There is much craft in the simplest boats he designed. In all of this I am not saying to not build boats of steel. I don't know of any small steel boats under 20' that have good performance. I am recommending that anyone desiring to build steel craft small or otherwise learn to do it properly and that can be done at a local vocational school. If they have a cavalier attitude and think all the safety and skill is just BS, then they have a high likelihood of creating a boat that can maim or kill them or the next owner. This is serious business, but obviously there must be safety with power tools as there is with steel fabrication tools.
If someone is too lazy to do it right, then it is best for all concerned not to do it until they are ready to make the commitment to learn.