Re: Back to Storm Petrel

> I meant that it probably hadn't been tried on a Storm Petrel.

A flange (steel wings) on the SP steel keel ought allow a significant reduction in draft whilst maintaining the position of keel clr and cog. Performance above rowing speed (wetted area penalty) may be better too.

I think I'd go with boards/lifting-keel though, like that on Centennial II, or SHS. The Centennial II type twin boards may be an easier mod, requiring only simple strong guards, and relocation aft of the rig coa. The latter is likely anyway with an increase in size, or mizzen. Backrests might be added to the cockpit seats to also serve in belaying any board tackles. In replacing the 170lb designed steel keel am I correct in assuming that for boards of 2 or 3ft draft only 30 or 50lbs lead ballast in each is required? I'd possibly stow them lashed to the floor and ship a broad rope slung leeboard for much thin water crossing, or simply raise them, drop sail, and fire up the 3hp outboard.

Does the hold bottom plywood need strengthening? -- there are no shoes, and the designed keel isn't attached there either. The PCB suggested shallow plywood keel mod is attached though, is it not?http://www.belljar.net/bolgersp.htm

-----------
Rig. I believe PCB supplied a larger balanced lugsail drawing for the boat built a few years ago - likely similar to the Windsprint rig, or larger still. It's an option, but I'm not so sure about it being a good one for SP at sea, nor enlarging the designed Strangford (rotating boomed latine) into a settee. Possibly a boomless sprit would be better for rough water? Am I correct in assuming there are no known drawings by PCB of any of the (5?) variations of handing no-drop-to-tack "dipping" lugsails?

http://www.nicholls.edu/boat/newOrleansLugger.html
http://www.herfeldt.com/Boatbuilding_News/Blog/Eintrage/2009/8/13_Eintrag_1.html
http://www.beer-devon.co.uk/BeerHeritage/BeerHeritageSite/VillageSite/BeerLugger.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20080622220028/www.messingaboutinboats.com/archives/mbissueseptember00.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20080722223950/www.messingaboutinboats.com/archives/mbissuefebruary00.html
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/10/columns/austin/03/index.htm
http://theinvisibleworkshop.blogspot.com/2009/08/rowing-cross-oared-again.html
http://theinvisibleworkshop.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-hell-am-i-going-to-do-this-summer.html
http://www.beersailingclub.co.uk/luggers.html
http://www.youtube.com/boscarhyn?gl=GB&hl=en-GB
http://www.google.com.au/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=new+orleans+lugger&btnG=Search+Books
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=TLG-LXJ5BUYC&pg=PA50&dq=new+orleans+lugger&hl=en&ei=WQpQTNmYNoP8vQOL0vHWAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-preview-link&resnum=2&ved=0CDIQuwUwAQ#v=onepage&q=new%20orleans%20lugger&f=false

Graeme

http://www.riverviewendo.com.au/beer/beer686.htm

For it's a bugger to tack is a lugger
Don't try it if you're in a rush
The yard can get caught in the rigging
When you drop it down when you're dipping
And if the wind comes abaft
You'll end up on your ass
It's a bugger to tack is a lugger Ohlay
Hi Graeme,

> Fast: Tarantula Tri. Slow: Brick Flying Cloud.
>
> Both draw only about 12".
>
> In TT it was a solution arrived at for local thin waters, and on the amas.
>
> In FC it was partial, being a 3" flange to the forward half of the box keel. It was added to correct Noticeable Leeway. There it resulted in too much weather helm and a 150% increase to the rudder chord was proposed. (Resulting in hydrodynamics akin to Cartopper??)

I meant that it probably hadn't been tried on a Storm Petrel.

Jon
Catalina 27 sailboats took about a foot off the depth of their fin keels
and added wings at the bottom of them. I have talked to several owners
as I am interested in one and they all say the can sail to windward with
the full depth keels so they must work. Also my boat Wolftrap had a
plate across the bottom of the keel and we sailed her in 6 ft seas
crossing the gulf stream she never lost purchase. The rudder was drawing
two feet .
Doug




Joe wrote:
>
> I'm a true believer in favor of end plates on shallow rudders. My
> Oldsnoe plans didn't have it but I added it after seeing it on later
> Bolger designs. While heading to port with sizable rollers astern, as
> a novice sailor I experienced high anxiety trying to avoid broaching.
> That rudder got a good workout in keeping me aimed at the harbor. I
> think the end plate saved me that day.
>
> Joe T
>
>
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Vacuum_Bagging/vacuum_bagging.html

I think it's a lot easier to use professional stuff, since I've done it both ways. (lots of vacuum bagging). Google "vacuum bagging supplies" and a lot of pages come up. The above is just one. The mastic tape is priceless, bleeder cloth (spongy white polyester material) is a lot easier and more effective than ropes or whatever at letting the vacuum propagate. And if you're bagging plywood rather than actual epoxy saturated laminate, then the bleeder cloth isn't destroyed in the process, so you can use it again. The cost of those sundries definitely does add up.

Vaccum pumps can be had for around $300 but I bet you could find one on Ebay for much much less, and they're a hell of a lot better than a roaring shop vac. that may decide to burn out in mid layup. They pull a better vacuum, use less energy, and are quiet, too

As for luan..... I second the opinions above. Way back in the 1980s there was the myth, maybe true, that luan was waterproof... Then Home Depot got into the act, luan became a downgraded, popular item and nowadays it's no better than corrugated cardboard, maybe even worse. Pure junk. (i made my Auray punt out of it, which lasted 10 years, barely, though used heavily) Decent boat plywood can be had for not all that much from Boulter or the like--a bargain compared to the total BS, AC, luan, or otherwise, sold at most so-called lumber yards. On another note, MDL, medium density laminate, the stuff with the paper surface, is actually ok for exterior uses, maybe even waterproof. and paints really nicely. I think it may even be void-free. It would have to be heavily encapsulated, but all these plywood Bolger boats are anyway. Don't know if it comes in 1/4" but it's cheap and available so might be worth looking into (used by signpainters all the time)



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Nels,
> >
> > ...snip...
> > >
> > > Can somebody confirm for me that this is a "bad idea"??
> >
> > I doubt anybody has tried the keel end plate,
>
> Fast: Tarantula Tri. Slow: Brick Flying Cloud.
>
> Both draw only about 12".
>
> In TT it was a solution arrived at for local thin waters, and on the amas.
>
> In FC it was partial, being a 3" flange to the forward half of the box keel. It was added to correct Noticeable Leeway. There it resulted in too much weather helm and a 150% increase to the rudder chord was proposed. (Resulting in hydrodynamics akin to Cartopper??)
>
>
> ~ Graeme ___/) ~
>
> Hi Nels,
>
> ...snip...
> >
> > Can somebody confirm for me that this is a "bad idea"??
>
> I doubt anybody has tried the keel end plate,

Fast: Tarantula Tri. Slow: Brick Flying Cloud.

Both draw only about 12".

In TT it was a solution arrived at for local thin waters, and on the amas.

In FC it was partial, being a 3" flange to the forward half of the box keel. It was added to correct Noticeable Leeway. There it resulted in too much weather helm and a 150% increase to the rudder chord was proposed. (Resulting in hydrodynamics akin to Cartopper??)


~ Graeme ___/) ~
My 2 cents: End plate on a Micro keel isn't a good idea. Lots of reasons: 1, Bottom of Micro keel is curved and not level. 
2, Boat should be able to rest on keel and one chine when dried out. 3, I can't imaging much positive effect when boat is moving slowly, and when she's moving well, she doesn't sideslip much anyway. 4, The drag of a long end-plate would be terrific.
    If I were to do anything to improve windward performance of the Micro, as I've said before on this group, I would experiment with a high-aspect plate, shaped to be congruent with the keel, pivoted on a bolt through the keel, and raised and lowered by a pendant from its trailing edge up to the bottom, aft to a hole in the stern well and up to a cleat. This would have some chance of producing a bit of lift whenever moving above stall speed. My hunch is it would be quite effective. Easy to try, and harmless: what's a bolt-hole through that keel? But Micros have given a lot of people a lot of satisfaction without such frippery.
 
If anyone does try an end-plate, first straightening and leveling the bottom of the keel, I think he will be fastening it up intolead. In the plans I have, and in my keel, the bottom of the keel is just that, lead, with plywood each side.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:11 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Now, Keel End Plate

 

If this is an experiment and the end plate is to be able to be bolted on and unbolted off, I'll suggest making several to find the optimal width of the end plate: wide enough to do some good and but as narrow as possible so as to minimise wetted surface. Junk plywood of that is stiff enough to be reasonably straight should be fine. If it were my boat I would use deck screws to minimally fasten it and all end the plates would have the same pre drilled hole pattern to minimise holes in the keel. The end plate of rudders has to be quite wide in order to do any good. Keel plates are likely to have to extend just as far past the side of the keel. Later out of steel all that weight will do some good along with the shape of the keel plate, but plywood will allow a realistic comparison between keel with, and without end plate. If the widest plate does no good I wouldn't even bother testing the others. Point as high as possible in steady winds of a certain speed and m easure side slip. The plate if it is doing any good it will lessen side slip. That is, it should lessen the tendency to crab. crabbing: the amount the boat goes downwind of where the boat is pointing. If the end plate significantly lessens crabbing then test speed with the end plate and without. There are vector graphs showing the difference in speed necessary to make up for various headings. If the end plate significantly diminishes speed at a given wind speed then it may not be useful even if it decreases crabbing. Though that will only be true at wind speeds that do not allow the boat to reach hull speed. And a steel endplate will be ballast that will allow the boat to stand up to higher winds and stand up straighter which will make the keel work more efficiently regardless of the end plate.
Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Nels (and all),
> This keel end plate idea has been batted about on the list before, with no real conclusions. Matt Lyden and his disciples claim that chine runners help small boats point. A keel end plate is similar to chine runners in some respects so the idea is reasonable.
>
> We need data- an experiment with the same boat. GPS track logs in smooth water with no currents. Nels, I'm glad you have volunteered :-)
>
> The idea has also been discussed on the Woodenboat list. The list member Paladin (who's pretty insightful) claims to have tank tested variants and found no significant improvement in performance.
>http://www.woodenbo at.com/forum/ showthread. php?t=14823
> I suspect that, as with most things nautical, each design is so different that it introduces too many new variables, most of which confound generalizable conclusions from one design to another.
>
> Please keep us posted.
>
> Bill, in Texas
> Long Micro Pugnacious
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@> wrote:
> >
> > Great guys - thanks!
> >
> > Probably the best idea is to use if for one season, built to the plans
> > and then add a plywood end-plate just screwed into the bottom of the
> > keel and see if it adds any benefit. I doubt it would be all that
> > noticeable on boat of this performance potential - but who knows?
> >
> > Anybody received any "famous blue mailing tubes" lately?
> >
> > Nels
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "adventures_ in_astrophotogra phy"
> > <jon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Nels,
> > >
> > > ...snip...
> > > > Got me to thinking - what if I added an end plate to the flat run on
> > the
> > > > keel bottom? Would it help prevent leeway when sailing? Thinking a
> > steel
> > > > plate about 6" wide or so, faired aft at the forward end, just like
> > the
> > > > rudder. This would also increase ballast down low.
> > > >
> > > > Am also thinking that with a deep-cycle battery secured foreward
> > under
> > > > each cockpit seat it would add more ballast and allow using a
> > trolling
> > > > motor on lakes around here closed to motorboats.
> > > >
> > > > Can somebody confirm for me that this is a "bad idea"??
> > >
> > > I doubt anybody has tried the keel end plate, so we won't know if it's
> > a bad idea until you give it a shot and report back here. I'd be
> > interested to know how the boat worked with and without the end plate.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> >
>

I'm a true believer in favor of end plates on shallow rudders. My Oldsnoe plans didn't have it but I added it after seeing it on later Bolger designs. While heading to port with sizable rollers astern, as a novice sailor I experienced high anxiety trying to avoid broaching. That rudder got a good workout in keeping me aimed at the harbor. I think the end plate saved me that day.

Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
The Storm Petrel was designed to essentially be a motor skiff that
sailed and which could withstand heavy weather.

Hi Bruce,

That's exactly what I am looking for, as explained in my original post.

I live on a river which is not suitable for sailing. But there is a nice
lake upstream about 10 miles away. But can be subject to significant
Thunderstorms occasionally. Thus the atraction to the "cork in the
bottle" option if caught off-shore in one.

I read this in BWAOM in the chapter on Bobcat. (Page 104)

"Cats with shallow rudders have a bad name for weathercocking against a
hard over rudder when they're overpowered, but since I learned to put
end plates across the bottom of the rudders I haven't had any complaints
about this. I started using end plates about 15 years ago, and I've
reached the point where a rudder without one looks naked to me. It's
astonishing how shallow a rudder can be and still steer the boat, if the
water is kept from rushing off the bottom of the blade. I have an idea
the principle could do wonders for shallow keels and bilge keels, though
making the horizontal part strong enough is a problem there."

The last sentence caught my eye. I'm thinking a small hull like SP
without a lot of momentum or speed might suggest the end plate on the
rudder would not be subjected to much in the way of damage. Plus the
shallow keel is dead straight on the bottom, so would be easy to add.

It could be lag-bolted into the keel sacrificial hardwood on the bottom
and removed if did not work. Or even exchanged to try differing widths
on a trial based using a plywood plate as has been suggested.

Overall I think SP would be very versatile in any case. Not sure though
if plans are actually available?

Obviously the trailer rollers would have to be wider with the end plate
if installed. Grounding would not be a huge factor as most of the river
bottom is sand or mud and the lake is plenty deep.

Nels
> Point as high as possible in steady winds...

If what you want is a spirited sailboat, why not chose one of the Bolger sailboats that are already optimized for spirited sailing?   Like the Plywood 12 1/2, or some others.  The Storm Petrel was designed to essentially be a motor skiff that sailed and which could withstand heavy weather.  Your mileage may vary, but for me, nine out of ten times in the past when I tried to improve a Bolger design, I ended up spending more money for an equivalent boat or a worse boat.
If this is an experiment and the end plate is to be able to be bolted on and unbolted off, I'll suggest making several to find the optimal width of the end plate: wide enough to do some good and but as narrow as possible so as to minimise wetted surface. Junk plywood of that is stiff enough to be reasonably straight should be fine. If it were my boat I would use deck screws to minimally fasten it and all end the plates would have the same pre drilled hole pattern to minimise holes in the keel. The end plate of rudders has to be quite wide in order to do any good. Keel plates are likely to have to extend just as far past the side of the keel. Later out of steel all that weight will do some good along with the shape of the keel plate, but plywood will allow a realistic comparison between keel with, and without end plate. If the widest plate does no good I wouldn't even bother testing the others. Point as high as possible in steady winds of a certain speed and measure side slip. The plate if it is doing any good it will lessen side slip. That is, it should lessen the tendency to crab. crabbing: the amount the boat goes downwind of where the boat is pointing. If the end plate significantly lessens crabbing then test speed with the end plate and without. There are vector graphs showing the difference in speed necessary to make up for various headings. If the end plate significantly diminishes speed at a given wind speed then it may not be useful even if it decreases crabbing. Though that will only be true at wind speeds that do not allow the boat to reach hull speed. And a steel endplate will be ballast that will allow the boat to stand up to higher winds and stand up straighter which will make the keel work more efficiently regardless of the end plate.
Eric


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Nels (and all),
> This keel end plate idea has been batted about on the list before, with no real conclusions. Matt Lyden and his disciples claim that chine runners help small boats point. A keel end plate is similar to chine runners in some respects so the idea is reasonable.
>
> We need data- an experiment with the same boat. GPS track logs in smooth water with no currents. Nels, I'm glad you have volunteered :-)
>
> The idea has also been discussed on the Woodenboat list. The list member Paladin (who's pretty insightful) claims to have tank tested variants and found no significant improvement in performance.
>http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14823
> I suspect that, as with most things nautical, each design is so different that it introduces too many new variables, most of which confound generalizable conclusions from one design to another.
>
> Please keep us posted.
>
> Bill, in Texas
> Long Micro Pugnacious
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@> wrote:
> >
> > Great guys - thanks!
> >
> > Probably the best idea is to use if for one season, built to the plans
> > and then add a plywood end-plate just screwed into the bottom of the
> > keel and see if it adds any benefit. I doubt it would be all that
> > noticeable on boat of this performance potential - but who knows?
> >
> > Anybody received any "famous blue mailing tubes" lately?
> >
> > Nels
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
> > <jon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Nels,
> > >
> > > ...snip...
> > > > Got me to thinking - what if I added an end plate to the flat run on
> > the
> > > > keel bottom? Would it help prevent leeway when sailing? Thinking a
> > steel
> > > > plate about 6" wide or so, faired aft at the forward end, just like
> > the
> > > > rudder. This would also increase ballast down low.
> > > >
> > > > Am also thinking that with a deep-cycle battery secured foreward
> > under
> > > > each cockpit seat it would add more ballast and allow using a
> > trolling
> > > > motor on lakes around here closed to motorboats.
> > > >
> > > > Can somebody confirm for me that this is a "bad idea"??
> > >
> > > I doubt anybody has tried the keel end plate, so we won't know if it's
> > a bad idea until you give it a shot and report back here. I'd be
> > interested to know how the boat worked with and without the end plate.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> >
>
Nels (and all),
This keel end plate idea has been batted about on the list before, with no real conclusions. Matt Lyden and his disciples claim that chine runners help small boats point. A keel end plate is similar to chine runners in some respects so the idea is reasonable.

We need data- an experiment with the same boat. GPS track logs in smooth water with no currents. Nels, I'm glad you have volunteered :-)

The idea has also been discussed on the Woodenboat list. The list member Paladin (who's pretty insightful) claims to have tank tested variants and found no significant improvement in performance.
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14823
I suspect that, as with most things nautical, each design is so different that it introduces too many new variables, most of which confound generalizable conclusions from one design to another.

Please keep us posted.

Bill, in Texas
Long Micro Pugnacious

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Great guys - thanks!
>
> Probably the best idea is to use if for one season, built to the plans
> and then add a plywood end-plate just screwed into the bottom of the
> keel and see if it adds any benefit. I doubt it would be all that
> noticeable on boat of this performance potential - but who knows?
>
> Anybody received any "famous blue mailing tubes" lately?
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
> <jon@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Nels,
> >
> > ...snip...
> > > Got me to thinking - what if I added an end plate to the flat run on
> the
> > > keel bottom? Would it help prevent leeway when sailing? Thinking a
> steel
> > > plate about 6" wide or so, faired aft at the forward end, just like
> the
> > > rudder. This would also increase ballast down low.
> > >
> > > Am also thinking that with a deep-cycle battery secured foreward
> under
> > > each cockpit seat it would add more ballast and allow using a
> trolling
> > > motor on lakes around here closed to motorboats.
> > >
> > > Can somebody confirm for me that this is a "bad idea"??
> >
> > I doubt anybody has tried the keel end plate, so we won't know if it's
> a bad idea until you give it a shot and report back here. I'd be
> interested to know how the boat worked with and without the end plate.
> >
> > Jon
> >
>
Great guys - thanks!

Probably the best idea is to use if for one season, built to the plans
and then add a plywood end-plate just screwed into the bottom of the
keel and see if it adds any benefit. I doubt it would be all that
noticeable on boat of this performance potential - but who knows?

Anybody received any "famous blue mailing tubes" lately?

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Nels,
>
> ...snip...
> > Got me to thinking - what if I added an end plate to the flat run on
the
> > keel bottom? Would it help prevent leeway when sailing? Thinking a
steel
> > plate about 6" wide or so, faired aft at the forward end, just like
the
> > rudder. This would also increase ballast down low.
> >
> > Am also thinking that with a deep-cycle battery secured foreward
under
> > each cockpit seat it would add more ballast and allow using a
trolling
> > motor on lakes around here closed to motorboats.
> >
> > Can somebody confirm for me that this is a "bad idea"??
>
> I doubt anybody has tried the keel end plate, so we won't know if it's
a bad idea until you give it a shot and report back here. I'd be
interested to know how the boat worked with and without the end plate.
>
> Jon
>
Hi Nels,

...snip...
> Got me to thinking - what if I added an end plate to the flat run on the
> keel bottom? Would it help prevent leeway when sailing? Thinking a steel
> plate about 6" wide or so, faired aft at the forward end, just like the
> rudder. This would also increase ballast down low.
>
> Am also thinking that with a deep-cycle battery secured foreward under
> each cockpit seat it would add more ballast and allow using a trolling
> motor on lakes around here closed to motorboats.
>
> Can somebody confirm for me that this is a "bad idea"??

I doubt anybody has tried the keel end plate, so we won't know if it's a bad idea until you give it a shot and report back here. I'd be interested to know how the boat worked with and without the end plate.

Jon
AIHSB,I'm no expert, but...
This doesn't seem like a good applicationfor an end plate. Keeping this type of device small is important. 
The keel does have a lot ofcrossover-induced vortex drag (what you hopean end plate would counteract) along its considerable length.  Placing a smallplateat one particular spot wouldn't do much for the remainder of the keel.  They're really intended for the (small) tips of high-aspect foils, where they can do a lot of crossover prevention without alargedrag penalty of their own.  
PB's use of end plates on rudders is still small enough to work fairly well, and allows a nice shallow rudder.  But a"full length plate" might do as much (increasedsurface+ hopefully smaller vortex)drag making as (current surface+ current vortex)drag preventing.  You couldtry aplywood one for a quick reality check.
-Bill

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofprairiedog2332
Sent:Tuesday, December 08, 2009 5:41 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Re: Back to Storm Petrel

 

Joe,

Great idea about modeling sails!

I was thinking of an iron end-plate on the keel bottom which should be
fairly damage proof. How much to project it beyond the keel bottom is
what I am wondering about - to act the same as the end-plate on the
rudder.

Serge Testa's Acrohc Australis - the smallest boat to circumnavigate
the globe had an end-plate - not only on the rudder - but also on the
shallow keel. (Part way through the voyage, I believe he extended the
keel and added a bulb on the bottom as well.) I was thinking narrower
plates.

Photos here - but you may have to join the group to view them.

<http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/microcruis ing/photos/ album/40988350/ pic/l\
ist?mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&dir= asc>

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "Joe" <scsbmsjoe@. ..> wrote:
>
> Your proposed mods look interesting. I like the idea of a balanced lug
sail, maybe move it forward a bit and add a small mizzen. Jim Michalak
has written on sail area math in his newsletter. The proposed shallower
keel is similar to my Oldshoe. Beaching involved getting wet only below
the knees. Susanne could work out the details for you, or perhaps
Michalak. His prices are modest. His recent newsletter features an
article on Weight Problems, which would shed light on the keel change.
An end plate on the keel would add some drag and would be subject to
damage on beaching.
>
>http://jimsboats. com/
>
> On models: For sails I have used thin translucent plastic from the dry
cleaners bags with carpet thread on all edges. They move nicely in a
light breeze and look great.
>
> Joe T

Joe,

Great idea about modeling sails!

I was thinking of an iron end-plate on the keel bottom which should be
fairly damage proof. How much to project it beyond the keel bottom is
what I am wondering about - to act the same as the end-plate on the
rudder.

Serge Testa's Acrohc Australis - the smallest boat to circumnavigate
the globe had an end-plate - not only on the rudder - but also on the
shallow keel. (Part way through the voyage, I believe he extended the
keel and added a bulb on the bottom as well.) I was thinking narrower
plates.

Photos here - but you may have to join the group to view them.

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microcruising/photos/album/40988350/pic/l\
ist?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc>

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> Your proposed mods look interesting. I like the idea of a balanced lug
sail, maybe move it forward a bit and add a small mizzen. Jim Michalak
has written on sail area math in his newsletter. The proposed shallower
keel is similar to my Oldshoe. Beaching involved getting wet only below
the knees. Susanne could work out the details for you, or perhaps
Michalak. His prices are modest. His recent newsletter features an
article on Weight Problems, which would shed light on the keel change.
An end plate on the keel would add some drag and would be subject to
damage on beaching.
>
>http://jimsboats.com/
>
> On models: For sails I have used thin translucent plastic from the dry
cleaners bags with carpet thread on all edges. They move nicely in a
light breeze and look great.
>
> Joe T
Your proposed mods look interesting. I like the idea of a balanced lug sail, maybe move it forward a bit and add a small mizzen. Jim Michalak has written on sail area math in his newsletter. The proposed shallower keel is similar to my Oldshoe. Beaching involved getting wet only below the knees. Susanne could work out the details for you, or perhaps Michalak. His prices are modest. His recent newsletter features an article on Weight Problems, which would shed light on the keel change. An end plate on the keel would add some drag and would be subject to damage on beaching.

http://jimsboats.com/

On models: For sails I have used thin translucent plastic from the dry cleaners bags with carpet thread on all edges. They move nicely in a light breeze and look great.

Joe T

For DIY his book and newsletters are good resources.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> I really love this design:-)
>
>http://www.belljar.net/bolgersp.htm
>
> You will notice Mr. Bolger offered some changes in order to have a
> shallower plywood keel, like the Micro - with some lead inside - which
> also included a rudder with an end plate. Also I believe an optional
> balance lug rig with more area.
>
> I live along a river now and think this would also work as a motor-only
> skiff with nice form stability when the winds are blowing up-stream
> which can create some rather formidable whitecaps, chasing all the
> aluminum fishing skiffs off the water . Then when I get to the lake
> upstream I can go sailing.
>
> Got me to thinking - what if I added an end plate to the flat run on the
> keel bottom? Would it help prevent leeway when sailing? Thinking a steel
> plate about 6" wide or so, faired aft at the forward end, just like the
> rudder. This would also increase ballast down low.
>
> Am also thinking that with a deep-cycle battery secured foreward under
> each cockpit seat it would add more ballast and allow using a trolling
> motor on lakes around here closed to motorboats.
>
> Can somebody confirm for me that this is a "bad idea"??
>
> Nels
>
I really love this design:-)

http://www.belljar.net/bolgersp.htm

You will notice Mr. Bolger offered some changes in order to have a
shallower plywood keel, like the Micro - with some lead inside - which
also included a rudder with an end plate. Also I believe an optional
balance lug rig with more area.

I live along a river now and think this would also work as a motor-only
skiff with nice form stability when the winds are blowing up-stream
which can create some rather formidable whitecaps, chasing all the
aluminum fishing skiffs off the water . Then when I get to the lake
upstream I can go sailing.

Got me to thinking - what if I added an end plate to the flat run on the
keel bottom? Would it help prevent leeway when sailing? Thinking a steel
plate about 6" wide or so, faired aft at the forward end, just like the
rudder. This would also increase ballast down low.

Am also thinking that with a deep-cycle battery secured foreward under
each cockpit seat it would add more ballast and allow using a trolling
motor on lakes around here closed to motorboats.

Can somebody confirm for me that this is a "bad idea"??

Nels