RE: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco

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--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, the doctor <scotedoc2@...> wrote:
>
> I believe most of this discussion is overlooking the most important aspect of towing a trailer...   That is ,,, Stopping the rig!   I don't recall seeing any relatively small boat trailers with brakes?    Horsepower is not the only issue... I occasionally VERY occasionally towed a Rhoades 19 with a v/w bug !!   A mile or so...Â
> Â
> just my input.
> Â
> doc
>
> --- On Fri, 12/25/09, rrusk9 <rrusk9@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: rrusk9 <rrusk9@...>
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, December 25, 2009, 8:06 PM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> OK, responding to GBroadlick's posting in particular but to this topic in general. Everybody is throwing around generalities about small cars but few if any are talking about the Subaru itself.
>
> A friend just bought an Outback. 2700 lb rating. Works fine towing a 17' Whaler (around 2100 lbs on a trailer). Same rating with any of the three available transmissions.
>
> The base Subaru currently comes with a 2.5L 4-cylinder engine. If it is geared reasonably, it should have no trouble towing <3000 lb. Years ago I used to tow 3500-4000 lbs behind a 2900 lb Toyota pickup with 115 hp. The Subaru has about 50% more power and 10% more weight. Before someone yells "a pickup is not a car", I have also towed many miles with smallish cars (from 1.5L-3.5L).
>
> Stay out of the fast lane. Don't use top gear. Open up your following distances to something that seems stupidly conservative (it isn't). Install brakes on the trailer. Keep your speeds conservative. Try not to use the last 10-15% of available power for very long at a time.
>
> The 300 lb tongue weight may be a bit high. In my experience, a tongue weight of 5-7% works well with a boat trailer. Higher tongue weights are required for travel trailers (sail area) and utility trailers (tight-coupled) . If the tongue is too light it will wander and the trailer may wag back and forth dangerously. If the tongue is too heavy the rear suspension will be overloaded. It will bottom out and it will sway dangerously. With an empty luggage area or empty back seat, a mid-sized car can easily deal with 125-150 lbs of tongue weight.
>
> The Subaru's four wheel drive is your friend while towing. It reduces the effects of sway and gives you traction when climbing hills and ramps. A late-model Subaru will also have anti-lock brakes.
>
> You are not likely to hurt your car towing an oversized load once slowly and in the right gear. If it shows signs of heating up, slow down or pull over. If you are not comfortable with trying this, then borrow a larger vehicle or rent a u-haul or something to take it to the truck scales and find out what your trailer actually weighs. A Chebacco on a reasonable trailer should be within the capabilities of your Subaru, but not everybody is comfortable towing without a monster tow vehicle. Find your own comfort level.
>
> Bob Rusk
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, GBroadlick@ .. wrote:
> >
> >
> > tow ratings for autos is lower for manual transmission than automatic.
> > I have lost 3 transmissions towing boats, never an engine
> > you must put on an oil cooler but make sure they use new hoses
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Doug Pollard <dougpol1@ .>
> > To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:55 am
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco
> >
> >
> > I recently replaced my van with a new to me used one. I had wanted to
> > uy a sedan but in checking out the specs on most of the lighter
> > utomobiles I found them not suitable for towing. Yes you can tow with
> > hem. I wanted a v6 engine thinking that towing my Elver would do less
> > amage to the engine if it were a little bigger than a 4cylinder one.
> > ll the lighter sedans I checked had a 1000 lb towing limit on them.
> > ars with v8 engines were much higher and mini vans had 2000 lb limit
> > nless you add a transmition oil cooler. Then the limit is 3000 lbs
> > enerally.
> > suspect that limit is based on the damage caused by overloading the
> > ransmition rather than breaking power. Modern breaks with the metal
> > mpregnated shoe's can stand tremendous heat though it is possible to
> > arp the rotors. If you over heat a transmition you are likely looking
> > t several thousand dollars to replace it. Considering this I would not
> > ull more than the are recomended for. If your car is old and has a
> > anual transmition it will likely pull a much heavier load. Modern cars
> > re built to get good gas milage not to pull heavy loads. With really
> > ood breaks they may be safer though than older cars pulling loads. This
> > s my opinion only but it is based on about a month of online research
> > n order to buy a towing vehicle for my Elver. The van I just got rid of
> > 164,000 miles still had the original breaks ( all country miles). Just
> > efore selling it because I was selling to a young single mom with a
> > ouple kids I didn't want to risk killing them so replaced the breaks
> > nd rotors because the rotars were getting thin. the shoes were less
> > han half worn out. What I am saying is the transmitions are the big
> > roblem with towing. I was told to not tow with overdrive engaged but to
> > hift into 3rd gear for towing.
> > oug
> >
> >
> > tefan Topolski wrote:
> >
> > :) - yes, i can see how to do that now that you have got me thinking.
> > I could probably place the 2 x 4 under the trailer frame right behind
> > each wheel (not forgetting the tongue too) to make it easier without
> > adding significant error to the calculation.
> >
> >
> > Leave it to an engineer to suggest i play at Archimedes.
> >
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Stefan
> >
> > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
> >
> > http://www.cottagem ed.org <http://www.cottagem ed.org>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
> >
> > Off the wall suggestion time. If you are uncomfortable taking the
> > trailer to the scale, take the scale to the trailer. PA State Troopers
> > set up portable weigh stations using load pads that weigh individual
> > wheels. Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the weight on each wheel.
> > If you have a flat hard surface, you may be able to use one of these.
> > Perhaps they are available for rental.
> >
> > You may be able to do something similar with a 2x4, a fulcrum, your
> > weight, and algebra. (Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer)
> >
> > Stefan Topolski wrote:
> >
> > > Displacement calculations should include all the above (below). Not
> > > included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.
> > >
> > > I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...
> > >
> > > Best Wishes,
> > > Stefan
> > >
> > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.cottagem ed.org <http://www.cottagem ed.org>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. However, it's
> > > pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up. It is
> > > also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use heavier
> > > wood than PCB used for the design calcs. I feel it is therefore
> > > prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about 30%
> > > for a margin of safety. If, using this method, you calculate 2500
> > > pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.
> > >
> > > Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars, sails,
> > > rigging and, auxiliary?
> > >
> > > V/R
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > pkortlucke wrote:
> > >
> > >> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> > >> <wetherillc@ > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on page
> > >>> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
> > >>> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300
> > >>>
> > >> pound
> > >>
> > >>> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
> > >>> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.
> > >>>
> > >> I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance for crew and
> > >> equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the applicable figure
> > >> when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a steel
> > >> centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard to believe a
> > >> standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty weight of a
> > >> boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight construction of the
> > >> schooner.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >>
> > >> Peter
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > >>
> > >> Bolger rules!!!
> > >> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> > orses
> > >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > >> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > >> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> > 978) 282-1349
> > >> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
> > >> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. com Yahoo!
> > roups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.117/2582 - Release Date: 12/22/09
> > 8:22:00
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> > stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> > 82-1349
> > Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
> > Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. com Yahoo! Groups
> > inks
> > Individual Email | Traditional
> > http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GBroadlick@... wrote:
>
>
> tow ratings for autos is lower for manual transmission than automatic.
> I have lost 3 transmissions towing boats, never an engine
> you must put on an oil cooler but make sure they use new hoses
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Pollard <dougpol1@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:55 am
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco
>
>
> I recently replaced my van with a new to me used one. I had wanted to
> uy a sedan but in checking out the specs on most of the lighter
> utomobiles I found them not suitable for towing. Yes you can tow with
> hem. I wanted a v6 engine thinking that towing my Elver would do less
> amage to the engine if it were a little bigger than a 4cylinder one.
> ll the lighter sedans I checked had a 1000 lb towing limit on them.
> ars with v8 engines were much higher and mini vans had 2000 lb limit
> nless you add a transmition oil cooler. Then the limit is 3000 lbs
> enerally.
> suspect that limit is based on the damage caused by overloading the
> ransmition rather than breaking power. Modern breaks with the metal
> mpregnated shoe's can stand tremendous heat though it is possible to
> arp the rotors. If you over heat a transmition you are likely looking
> t several thousand dollars to replace it. Considering this I would not
> ull more than the are recomended for. If your car is old and has a
> anual transmition it will likely pull a much heavier load. Modern cars
> re built to get good gas milage not to pull heavy loads. With really
> ood breaks they may be safer though than older cars pulling loads. This
> s my opinion only but it is based on about a month of online research
> n order to buy a towing vehicle for my Elver. The van I just got rid of
> 164,000 miles still had the original breaks ( all country miles). Just
> efore selling it because I was selling to a young single mom with a
> ouple kids I didn't want to risk killing them so replaced the breaks
> nd rotors because the rotars were getting thin. the shoes were less
> han half worn out. What I am saying is the transmitions are the big
> roblem with towing. I was told to not tow with overdrive engaged but to
> hift into 3rd gear for towing.
> oug
>
>
> tefan Topolski wrote:
>
> :) - yes, i can see how to do that now that you have got me thinking.
> I could probably place the 2 x 4 under the trailer frame right behind
> each wheel (not forgetting the tongue too) to make it easier without
> adding significant error to the calculation.
>
>
> Leave it to an engineer to suggest i play at Archimedes.
>
>
> Best Wishes,
> Stefan
>
> "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
>
>http://www.cottagemed.org<http://www.cottagemed.org>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
>
> Off the wall suggestion time. If you are uncomfortable taking the
> trailer to the scale, take the scale to the trailer. PA State Troopers
> set up portable weigh stations using load pads that weigh individual
> wheels. Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the weight on each wheel.
> If you have a flat hard surface, you may be able to use one of these.
> Perhaps they are available for rental.
>
> You may be able to do something similar with a 2x4, a fulcrum, your
> weight, and algebra. (Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer)
>
> Stefan Topolski wrote:
>
> > Displacement calculations should include all the above (below). Not
> > included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.
> >
> > I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Stefan
> >
> > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
> >
> >
> >http://www.cottagemed.org<http://www.cottagemed.org>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
> >
> > I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. However, it's
> > pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up. It is
> > also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use heavier
> > wood than PCB used for the design calcs. I feel it is therefore
> > prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about 30%
> > for a margin of safety. If, using this method, you calculate 2500
> > pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.
> >
> > Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars, sails,
> > rigging and, auxiliary?
> >
> > V/R
> > Chris
> >
> > pkortlucke wrote:
> >
> >> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> >> <wetherillc@> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on page
> >>> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
> >>> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300
> >>>
> >> pound
> >>
> >>> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
> >>> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.
> >>>
> >> I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance for crew and
> >> equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the applicable figure
> >> when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a steel
> >> centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard to believe a
> >> standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty weight of a
> >> boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight construction of the
> >> schooner.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Bolger rules!!!
> >> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> orses
> >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> >> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> 978) 282-1349
> >> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> roups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.117/2582 - Release Date: 12/22/09
> 8:22:00
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Bolger rules!!!
> NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> 82-1349
> Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups
> inks
> Individual Email | Traditional
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss <jrweiss98155@...> wrote:
>
> Synthetic oil is a good idea in any vehicle that is put to hard use like
> towing. I had an oil temp gauge in one car that I had in Albuquerque.
> Normal oil temp was around 180F in hot summer, city traffic. When I
> switched to synthetic, it immediately dropped to 150F, which was the
> thermostat on the aux oil cooler. When I got the boat a few years
> later, I hardly ever saw the oil temp at the 180 mark when towing.
>
> Some modern automatics are quite good. The 5-speed in my VW Passat
> doesn't "hunt" at all, and the torque converter lockup feature works well.
>
> etap28 wrote:
> > I killed an engine by towing a 19' RIB with a 200HP mercury (not mine) from MA to Fla. and back. It was a 1987 Dodge Caravan, 3.0 V6 Mitsubishi. Beware cooling issues!! A guy in Montana told me it was the undersized radiator that did it. The van still ran great and towed the boat without issues, but started going through oil, though it never technically overheated. Economy went from 24 hwy to 12. So it was slaving away under there. Apparently the insufficient cooling led to shrinkage of the valve guide seals. (that engine had other endemic problems too but the heat really killed it). So my tiny grain of advice would be, along with transmission coolers, oil coolers also.
> >
> > I dislike automatics and consider them the bane of civilization
> >
> > I don't mind them so much on bigger vehicles. Never on a 4 cylinder. My curmudgeonly 2 cents.
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss <jrweiss98155@...> wrote:
>
> Synthetic oil is a good idea in any vehicle that is put to hard use like
> towing. I had an oil temp gauge in one car that I had in Albuquerque.
> Normal oil temp was around 180F in hot summer, city traffic. When I
> switched to synthetic, it immediately dropped to 150F, which was the
> thermostat on the aux oil cooler. When I got the boat a few years
> later, I hardly ever saw the oil temp at the 180 mark when towing.
>
> Some modern automatics are quite good. The 5-speed in my VW Passat
> doesn't "hunt" at all, and the torque converter lockup feature works well.
>
> etap28 wrote:
> > I killed an engine by towing a 19' RIB with a 200HP mercury (not mine) from MA to Fla. and back. It was a 1987 Dodge Caravan, 3.0 V6 Mitsubishi. Beware cooling issues!! A guy in Montana told me it was the undersized radiator that did it. The van still ran great and towed the boat without issues, but started going through oil, though it never technically overheated. Economy went from 24 hwy to 12. So it was slaving away under there. Apparently the insufficient cooling led to shrinkage of the valve guide seals. (that engine had other endemic problems too but the heat really killed it). So my tiny grain of advice would be, along with transmission coolers, oil coolers also.
> >
> > I dislike automatics and consider them the bane of civilization
> >
> > I don't mind them so much on bigger vehicles. Never on a 4 cylinder. My curmudgeonly 2 cents.
>

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 1:02 PM, John Kohnen<jhkohnen@...>wrote:

That Chrysler 3.3 liter engine is indeed a Good one, but the automatic
transmissions they put in those old mini-vans are No Good.

The first generation Mopar 4-speed automatics were problematic but after that they were as problem free as any modern automatic, which, by the way, is by far the most complicated part of an automobile, much more complicated and requiring tighter tolerances than the engines. I've driven four of these 4-speed automatics past the 250,000 mile mark. They'll tow 3,500 pounds. My past practice is to buy an early 90s minivan for about $1,000; drive it for 100,000 miles and then park it for parts. It ends up costing me 3 cents per mile to own and repair one of these vehicles and 10 cents per mile for fuel. It doesn't get any cheaper than that.

If you want to stay on the cheap side, don't buy a tow vehicle that you're going to use for general purpose. It's going to be much much more expensive and you'll end up burning a lot of fuel driving around lightly loaded. A friend had his Toyota pickup die on him last year. Instead of repairing his Toyota or getting another one, which wasn't going to be cheap, he bought a beater rust-bucket American 4-wheel drive pickup for $800, which he uses to haul a trailer back and forth 600 miles round-trip to his cabin in northern Minnesota, which he's rebuilding. The rest of the time, he drives something sensible.

Fred

> I killed an engine by towing a 19' RIB with a 200HP mercury (not mine) from MA to Fla. and back. It was a 1987 Dodge Caravan, 3.0 V6 Mitsubishi. Beware cooling issues!! A guy in Montana told me it was the undersized radiator that did it. The van still ran great and towed the boat without issues, but started going through oil, though it never technically overheated. Economy went from 24 hwy to 12. So it was slaving away under there. Apparently the insufficient cooling led to shrinkage of the valve guide seals. (that engine had other endemic problems too but the heat really killed it). So my tiny grain of advice would be, along with transmission coolers, oil coolers also.
>
> I dislike automatics and consider them the bane of civilization
>
> I don't mind them so much on bigger vehicles. Never on a 4 cylinder. My curmudgeonly 2 cents.

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:10:25 -0800, Fred S wrote:

> minivan, I would recommend a
> Chrysler product with the 3.3 liter engine. These engines are
> bullet-proof
> (they'll easily last 300,000 miles) and have lots of low end torque,
> which
> is what you need when towing. The frame can handle the weight. I've towed
> full-sized cars on towing dollies (no brakes) all over the country with a
> rig like this and never had a problem. (I used to tow dealer trades for a
> friend). You can get a decent used minivan for a couple thousand dollars
> ...

--
John (jkohnen@...)
Borrowers of books--those mutilators of collections, spoilers of
the symmetry of shelves, and creators of lost volumes. (Charles
Lamb)

> For a minivan, I would recommend a
> Chrysler product with the 3.3 liter engine.

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 8:37 AM, etap28<dave.irland@...>wrote:

I killed an engine by towing a 19' RIB with a 200HP mercury (not mine) from MA to Fla. and back. It was a 1987 Dodge Caravan, 3.0 V6 Mitsubishi. Beware cooling issues!!

Yes, the Mitsi 3.0 liter is nothing like the Chrysler 3.3. It's got nowhere near the torque and causes the transmission to hunt and search trying to maintain speed under load. Heat is always a potential problem when towing. I once towed a Jeep from Chadron, Nebraska to Orr, Minnesota in 100+ temperatures. Even though the tow vehicle was a pickup with the 318 engine and had no trouble pulling the load, I kept the transmission out of overdrive and the air conditioning off in order to avoid overheating the engine and tranny. It was a hot drive, but nothing went wrong.

Fred

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rowerwet" <rowerwet@...> wrote:
>
> rent a U-haul truck, tow to the scales and back, problem solved.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@> wrote:
> >
> > :) - yes, i can see how to do that now that you have got me thinking.
> > I could probably place the 2 x 4 under the trailer frame right behind
> > each wheel (not forgetting the tongue too) to make it easier without
> > adding significant error to the calculation.
> >
> > Leave it to an engineer to suggest i play at Archimedes.
> >
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Stefan
> >
> > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -
> > anonymous
> >
> >http://www.cottagemed.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
> >
> > Off the wall suggestion time. If you are uncomfortable taking the
> > trailer to the scale, take the scale to the trailer. PA State
> > Troopers set up portable weigh stations using load pads that weigh
> > individual wheels. Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the weight on
> > each wheel. If you have a flat hard surface, you may be able to use
> > one of these. Perhaps they are available for rental.
> >
> > You may be able to do something similar with a 2x4, a fulcrum, your
> > weight, and algebra. (Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer)
> >
> > Stefan Topolski wrote:
> >
> > > Displacement calculations should include all the above (below). Not
> > > included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.
> > >
> > > I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...
> > >
> > > Best Wishes,
> > > Stefan
> > >
> > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -
> > > anonymous
> > >
> > >
> > >http://www.cottagemed.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. However, it's
> > > pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up. It is
> > > also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use heavier
> > > wood than PCB used for the design calcs. I feel it is therefore
> > > prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about 30%
> > > for a margin of safety. If, using this method, you calculate 2500
> > > pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.
> > >
> > > Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars, sails,
> > > rigging and, auxiliary?
> > >
> > > V/R
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > pkortlucke wrote:
> > >
> > >> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> > >> <wetherillc@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on
> > >>> page
> > >>> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
> > >>> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300
> > >>>
> > >> pound
> > >>
> > >>> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
> > >>> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.
> > >>>
> > >> I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance for crew
> > >> and
> > >> equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the applicable
> > >> figure
> > >> when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a steel
> > >> centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard to
> > >> believe a
> > >> standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty weight of a
> > >> boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight construction of
> > >> the
> > >> schooner.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >>
> > >> Peter
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Bolger rules!!!
> > >> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> > >> dead horses
> > >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > >> posts
> > >> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > >> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> > >> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > >> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
>
> :) - yes, i can see how to do that now that you have got me thinking.
> I could probably place the 2 x 4 under the trailer frame right behind
> each wheel (not forgetting the tongue too) to make it easier without
> adding significant error to the calculation.
>
> Leave it to an engineer to suggest i play at Archimedes.
>
>
> Best Wishes,
> Stefan
>
> "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -
> anonymous
>
>http://www.cottagemed.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
>
> Off the wall suggestion time. If you are uncomfortable taking the
> trailer to the scale, take the scale to the trailer. PA State
> Troopers set up portable weigh stations using load pads that weigh
> individual wheels. Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the weight on
> each wheel. If you have a flat hard surface, you may be able to use
> one of these. Perhaps they are available for rental.
>
> You may be able to do something similar with a 2x4, a fulcrum, your
> weight, and algebra. (Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer)
>
> Stefan Topolski wrote:
>
> > Displacement calculations should include all the above (below). Not
> > included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.
> >
> > I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Stefan
> >
> > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -
> > anonymous
> >
> >
> >http://www.cottagemed.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
> >
> > I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. However, it's
> > pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up. It is
> > also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use heavier
> > wood than PCB used for the design calcs. I feel it is therefore
> > prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about 30%
> > for a margin of safety. If, using this method, you calculate 2500
> > pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.
> >
> > Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars, sails,
> > rigging and, auxiliary?
> >
> > V/R
> > Chris
> >
> > pkortlucke wrote:
> >
> >> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> >> <wetherillc@> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on
> >>> page
> >>> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
> >>> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300
> >>>
> >> pound
> >>
> >>> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
> >>> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.
> >>>
> >> I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance for crew
> >> and
> >> equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the applicable
> >> figure
> >> when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a steel
> >> centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard to
> >> believe a
> >> standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty weight of a
> >> boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight construction of
> >> the
> >> schooner.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Bolger rules!!!
> >> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> >> dead horses
> >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> >> posts
> >> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> >> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

I was really interested in that model yesterday, and I'm actually trying to lean my wife that way now.  I didn't know why there was a difference in the towing capacity between subaru models, and I still don't know why my wife hasn't shown much interest in the Legacy Outback yet, but that's what we husbands do - live in darkness and ignorance until enlightened by she who must be obeyed.

> That is surprising to me. Modern transmition are constantly shifting
> according to computer demands that allows you to hold your foot steady
> on the gas while the transmition is constantly shifting on even slight
> upgrades, running level and down hill. I read in an article that these
> computers have to be trained for the kind of driving you do. When you
> start pulling a trailer the first few miles is spent retraining the
> computer for the heavier load and after you remove the trailer the
> computer retrains itself. You may well be right though as most manual
> transmitions are of older design and a lot has been done to improve
> automatic ones. Also the manual transmitions use thicker oil to
> lubricate the gears and it doesn't carry off heat as well. Maybe so!
> Doug

This sounds like great advice.

A manual should be able to pull more than an automatic, but then again perhaps the slippage in an automatic gives more leeway against the pulls, pushes, and bounces of a heavy trailer that would provide shock loads on the transmission.

As for the issue of the admiral, she hates the image of SUV's and low gas mileage in general - she really seems like a subaru or similar type of gal.

We're actively negotiating right now.

-s

http://www.cottagemed.org

On Dec 23, 2009, at 10:36 AM,GBroadlick@...wrote:

tow ratings for autos is lower for manual transmission than automatic.

I have lost 3 transmissions towing boats, never an engine

you must put on an oil cooler but make sure they use new hoses

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Pollard <dougpol1@verizon. net>
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:55 am
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco

I recently replaced my van with a new to me used one. I had wanted to 
buy a sedan but in checking out the specs on most of the lighter 
automobiles I found them not suitable for towing. Yes you can tow with 
them. I wanted a v6 engine thinking that towing my Elver would do less 
damage to the engine if it were a little bigger than a 4cylinder one. 
All the lighter sedans I checked had a 1000 lb towing limit on them. 
Cars with v8 engines were much higher and mini vans had 2000 lb limit 
unless you add a transmition oil cooler. Then the limit is 3000 lbs 
generally.
I suspect that limit is based on the damage caused by overloading the 
transmition rather than breaking power. Modern breaks with the metal 
impregnated shoe's can stand tremendous heat though it is possible to 
warp the rotors. If you over heat a transmition you are likely looking 
at several thousand dollars to replace it. Considering this I would not 
pull more than the are recomended for. If your car is old and has a 
manual transmition it will likely pull a much heavier load. Modern cars 
are built to get good gas milage not to pull heavy loads. With really 
good breaks they may be safer though than older cars pulling loads. This 
is my opinion only but it is based on about a month of online research 
in order to buy a towing vehicle for my Elver. The van I just got rid of 
@ 164,000 miles still had the original breaks ( all country miles). Just 
before selling it because I was selling to a young single mom with a 
couple kids I didn't want to risk killing them so replaced the breaks 
and rotors because the rotars were getting thin. the shoes were less 
than half worn out. What I am saying is the transmitions are the big 
problem with towing. I was told to not tow with overdrive engaged but to 
shift into 3rd gear for towing.
Doug




Stefan Topolski wrote:
>
> :) - yes, i can see how to do that now that you have got me thinking. 
> I could probably place the 2 x 4 under the trailer frame right behind 
> each wheel (not forgetting the tongue too) to make it easier without 
> adding significant error to the calculation.
>
>
> Leave it to an engineer to suggest i play at Archimedes.
>
>
> Best Wishes,
> Stefan
>
> "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
>
>http://www.cottagem
 ed.org<http://www.cottagem
 ed.org>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
>
> Off the wall suggestion time. If you are uncomfortable taking the 
> trailer to the scale, take the scale to the trailer. PA State Troopers 
> set up portable weigh stations using load pads that weigh individual 
> wheels. Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the weight on each wheel. 
> If you have a flat hard surface, you may be able to use one of these. 
> Perhaps they are available for rental.
>
> You may be able to do something similar with a 2x4, a fulcrum, your 
> weight, and algebra. (Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer)
>
> Stefan Topolski wrote:
>
>> Displacement calculations should include all the above (below). Not 
>> included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.
>>
>> I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...
>>
>> Best Wishes,
>> Stefan
>>
>> "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
>>
>>
>>http://www.cottagem
 ed.org<http://www.cottagem
 ed.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
>>
>> I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. However, it's 
>> pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up. It is 
>> also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use heavier 
>> wood than PCB used for the design calcs. I feel it is therefore 
>> prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about 30% 
>> for a margin of safety. If, using this method, you calculate 2500 
>> pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.
>>
>> Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars, sails, 
>> rigging and, auxiliary?
>>
>> V/R
>> Chris
>>
>> pkortlucke wrote:
>>
>>> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.
 com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
>>> <wetherillc@. ..> wrote:
>>>   
>>>> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on page
>>>> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
>>>> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300
>>>>     
>>> pound
>>>   
>>>> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
>>>> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.
>>>>     
>>> I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance for crew and
>>> equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the applicable figure
>>> when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a steel
>>> centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard to believe a
>>> standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty weight of a
>>> boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight construction of the
>>> schooner.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------ ---------
 --------- ------
>>>
>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead 
horses
>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts 
>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: 
(978) 282-1349
>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@
 yahoogroups.
 com>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_
 lounge-subscribe
 @yahoogroups.
 comYahoo! 
Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>
>>
>
>
> 
> ------------ ---------
 --------- ---------
 --------- ---------
 --------- ------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG -www.avg.com> Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.117/2582 - Release Date: 12/22/09 
18:22:00
>
>   



------------ ---------
 --------- ------

Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts 
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 
282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@
 yahoogroups.
 com- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_
 lounge-subscribe
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 comYahoo! Groups 
Links

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>
> tow ratings for autos is lower for manual transmission than automatic.
> I have lost 3 transmissions towing boats, never an engine
> you must put on an oil cooler but make sure they use new hoses
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Pollard <dougpol1@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:55 am
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco
>
> I recently replaced my van with a new to me used one. I had wanted to
> buy a sedan but in checking out the specs on most of the lighter
> automobiles I found them not suitable for towing. Yes you can tow with
> them. I wanted a v6 engine thinking that towing my Elver would do less
> damage to the engine if it were a little bigger than a 4cylinder one.
> All the lighter sedans I checked had a 1000 lb towing limit on them.
> Cars with v8 engines were much higher and mini vans had 2000 lb limit
> unless you add a transmition oil cooler. Then the limit is 3000 lbs
> generally.
> I suspect that limit is based on the damage caused by overloading the
> transmition rather than breaking power. Modern breaks with the metal
> impregnated shoe's can stand tremendous heat though it is possible to
> warp the rotors. If you over heat a transmition you are likely looking
> at several thousand dollars to replace it. Considering this I would not
> pull more than the are recomended for. If your car is old and has a
> manual transmition it will likely pull a much heavier load. Modern cars
> are built to get good gas milage not to pull heavy loads. With really
> good breaks they may be safer though than older cars pulling loads. This
> is my opinion only but it is based on about a month of online research
> in order to buy a towing vehicle for my Elver. The van I just got rid of
> @ 164,000 miles still had the original breaks ( all country miles). Just
> before selling it because I was selling to a young single mom with a
> couple kids I didn't want to risk killing them so replaced the breaks
> and rotors because the rotars were getting thin. the shoes were less
> than half worn out. What I am saying is the transmitions are the big
> problem with towing. I was told to not tow with overdrive engaged but to
> shift into 3rd gear for towing.
> Doug
>
>
>
>
> Stefan Topolski wrote:
> >
> > :) - yes, i can see how to do that now that you have got me thinking.
> > I could probably place the 2 x 4 under the trailer frame right behind
> > each wheel (not forgetting the tongue too) to make it easier without
> > adding significant error to the calculation.
> >
> >
> > Leave it to an engineer to suggest i play at Archimedes.
> >
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Stefan
> >
> > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
> >
> >http://www.cottagemed.org<http://www.cottagemed.org/> <http://www.cottagemed.org<http://www.cottagemed.org/>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
> >
> > Off the wall suggestion time. If you are uncomfortable taking the
> > trailer to the scale, take the scale to the trailer. PA State Troopers
> > set up portable weigh stations using load pads that weigh individual
> > wheels. Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the weight on each wheel.
> > If you have a flat hard surface, you may be able to use one of these.
> > Perhaps they are available for rental.
> >
> > You may be able to do something similar with a 2x4, a fulcrum, your
> > weight, and algebra. (Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer)
> >
> > Stefan Topolski wrote:
> >
> >> Displacement calculations should include all the above (below). Not
> >> included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.
> >>
> >> I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...
> >>
> >> Best Wishes,
> >> Stefan
> >>
> >> "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
> >>
> >>
> >>http://www.cottagemed.org<http://www.cottagemed.org/> <http://www.cottagemed.org<http://www.cottagemed.org/>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. However, it's
> >> pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up. It is
> >> also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use heavier
> >> wood than PCB used for the design calcs. I feel it is therefore
> >> prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about 30%
> >> for a margin of safety. If, using this method, you calculate 2500
> >> pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.
> >>
> >> Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars, sails,
> >> rigging and, auxiliary?
> >>
> >> V/R
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> pkortlucke wrote:
> >>
> >>> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com>, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> >>> <wetherillc@...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on page
> >>>> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
> >>>> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300
> >>>>
> >>> pound
> >>>
> >>>> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
> >>>> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.
> >>>>
> >>> I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance for crew and
> >>> equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the applicable figure
> >>> when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a steel
> >>> centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard to believe a
> >>> standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty weight of a
> >>> boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight construction of the
> >>> schooner.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >>> Peter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Bolger rules!!!
> >>> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> >>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> >>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> >>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> >>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> >>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!
> Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
> > Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.117/2582 - Release Date: 12/22/09
> 18:22:00
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups
> Links
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.117/2583 - Release Date: 12/23/09 08:28:00
>
>

On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:19 PM, reddoc000 wrote:

> I've searched posts and can't be sure...
>
> How much does a standard professionally built Chebacco on a good
> trailer as long as the boat is weigh? Can a Subaru tow it safely
> (with trailer brakes etc.) ?
>
> The reason for asking is this - i was assured that i could easily
> tow it but now that the boat has arrived the tongue weight's almost
> 300 pounds and I have second thoughts. Even if i adjust the wheels
> and tongue weight, I don't really want to haul it down the mountain
> with my Forester or Impreza to find out how much it weighs at the
> truck stop scale if i shouldn't be hauling it with my Forester or
> Impreza to begin with...
>
> Here's a second question - IF i can't (trusting that we american
> yanks do choose overkill even to tow bananas) how do you suggest i
> convince the admiral that we need a more truck-like non-subaru to
> do said tows on the highways and byways of New England?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> :) - yes, i can see how to do that now that you have got me thinking.
> I could probably place the 2 x 4 under the trailer frame right behind
> each wheel (not forgetting the tongue too) to make it easier without
> adding significant error to the calculation.
>
>
> Leave it to an engineer to suggest i play at Archimedes.
>
>
> Best Wishes,
> Stefan
>
> "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
>
>http://www.cottagemed.org<http://www.cottagemed.org>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
>
> Off the wall suggestion time. If you are uncomfortable taking the
> trailer to the scale, take the scale to the trailer. PA State Troopers
> set up portable weigh stations using load pads that weigh individual
> wheels. Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the weight on each wheel.
> If you have a flat hard surface, you may be able to use one of these.
> Perhaps they are available for rental.
>
> You may be able to do something similar with a 2x4, a fulcrum, your
> weight, and algebra. (Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer)
>
> Stefan Topolski wrote:
>
>> Displacement calculations should include all the above (below). Not
>> included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.
>>
>> I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...
>>
>> Best Wishes,
>> Stefan
>>
>> "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
>>
>>
>>http://www.cottagemed.org<http://www.cottagemed.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
>>
>> I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. However, it's
>> pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up. It is
>> also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use heavier
>> wood than PCB used for the design calcs. I feel it is therefore
>> prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about 30%
>> for a margin of safety. If, using this method, you calculate 2500
>> pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.
>>
>> Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars, sails,
>> rigging and, auxiliary?
>>
>> V/R
>> Chris
>>
>> pkortlucke wrote:
>>
>>> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
>>> <wetherillc@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on page
>>>> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
>>>> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300
>>>>
>>> pound
>>>
>>>> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
>>>> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.
>>>>
>>> I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance for crew and
>>> equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the applicable figure
>>> when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a steel
>>> centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard to believe a
>>> standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty weight of a
>>> boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight construction of the
>>> schooner.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
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>
> I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. >
>

> rigging and, auxiliary?
>

Displacement calculations should include all the above (below).  Not included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.

I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...

Best Wishes,

Stefan

"One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."    -anonymous

http://www.cottagemed.org

On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:

I agree with you about the meaning of displacement.  However, it's pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up.  It is also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use heavier wood than PCB used for the design calcs.  I feel it is therefore prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about 30% for a margin of safety.  If, using this method, you calculate 2500 pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.

Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars, sails, rigging and, auxiliary?

V/R
Chris

pkortlucke wrote:

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.
 com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"<wetherillc@.
 ..>wrote:

The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on page
226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300

pound

displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.

I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance for crew and
equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the applicable figure
when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a steel
centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard to believe a
standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty weight of a
boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight construction of the
schooner.

Cheers

Peter






------------ ---------
 --------- ------

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The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on page 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740 pounds.  The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300 pound displacement.  It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a margin of safety.  You must also add the weight of the trailer.  Once you have this number, look in the manual for the Forrester to see what it is rated to tow.  You may need to deduct weight of cargo in the vehicle from the towing weight. 

Whatever you decide, the way you drive on hills can have a serious effect.  A few months ago, I followed an oilfield services truck  up US 220 from Cumberland, MD to Somerset, PA on a hill about 5 or 6 miles long.  I followed too close at slow speed.  The heat of the air coming from the truck I was following reduced my cooling capacity and I almost overheated.

V/R
Chris

reddoc000 wrote:

I've searched posts and can't be sure...

How much does a standard professionally built Chebacco on a good trailer as long as the boat is weigh?  Can a Subaru tow it safely (with trailer brakes etc.) ? 

The reason for asking is this - i was assured that i could easily tow it but now that the boat has arrived the tongue weight's almost 300 pounds and I have second thoughts. Even if i adjust the wheels and tongue weight, I don't really want to haul it down the mountain with my Forester or Impreza to find out how much it weighs at the truck stop scale if i shouldn't be hauling it with my Forester or Impreza to begin with...

Here's a second question - IF i can't (trusting that we american yanks do choose overkill even to tow bananas) how do you suggest i convince the admiral that we need a more truck-like non-subaru to do said tows on the highways and byways of New England?



------------------------------------

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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"<wetherillc@...>wrote:

The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on page
226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300

pound

displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.

I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance for crew and
equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the applicable figure
when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a steel
centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard to believe a
standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty weight of a
boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight construction of the
schooner.

Cheers

Peter






------------------------------------

Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts 
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- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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>
> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19' 8 ") on page
> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement at 1740
> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to have 2300

> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over this for a
> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the trailer.

I've searched posts and can't be sure...

How much does a standard professionally built Chebacco on a good trailer as long as the boat is weigh?  Can a Subaru tow it safely (with trailer brakes etc.) ? 

The reason for asking is this - i was assured that i could easily tow it but now that the boat has arrived the tongue weight's almost 300 pounds and I have second thoughts. Even if i adjust the wheels and tongue weight, I don't really want to haul it down the mountain with my Forester or Impreza to find out how much it weighs at the truck stop scale if i shouldn't be hauling it with my Forester or Impreza to begin with...

Here's a second question - IF i can't (trusting that we american yanks do choose overkill even to tow bananas) how do you suggest i convince the admiral that we need a more truck-like non-subaru to do said tows on the highways and byways of New England?



------------------------------------

Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts 
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "reddoc000" <public@...> wrote:
> >
> > I've searched posts and can't be sure...
> >
> > How much does a standard professionally built Chebacco on a good
> trailer as long as the boat is weigh? Can a Subaru tow it safely (with
> trailer brakes etc.) ?
> >
> > >
>
> Not sure about the weight of a Chebacco but my brother tows our 31ft
> Folding schooner with an old Honda CRV without any problems. When he
> put the Elegant Punt on the roof racks as well he said he noticed the
> windage but not too much of a problem.
>
>http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2524994870086666558OXOdAi
> <http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2524994870086666558OXOdAi>
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter
>
>
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>
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>

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "reddoc000" <public@...> wrote:
>
> I've searched posts and can't be sure...
>
> How much does a standard professionally built Chebacco on a good trailer as long as the boat is weigh? Can a Subaru tow it safely (with trailer brakes etc.) ?
>
> >

Not sure about the weight of a Chebacco but my brother tows our 31ft Folding schooner with an old Honda CRV without any problems. When he put the Elegant Punt on the roof racks as well he said he noticed the windage but not too much of a problem.

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2524994870086666558OXOdAi

Cheers

Peter