Re: Alternative coverings
Cool,
it's always fun to try the unusual. They do cover expensive canoes with the aircraft dacron, a material I am always trying to find new uses for...
On Fat EEEK, the only part I left uncovered was the rub rail along the side. So, after 10 years or thereabouts, you can guess the only part that needs some attention... Of course I am storing out of doors so that isn't terribly helpful. My problem is that my experiments have a way of growing on me, I don't just sell them off or throw them out. So any shortcuts taken do end up costing me.
it's always fun to try the unusual. They do cover expensive canoes with the aircraft dacron, a material I am always trying to find new uses for...
On Fat EEEK, the only part I left uncovered was the rub rail along the side. So, after 10 years or thereabouts, you can guess the only part that needs some attention... Of course I am storing out of doors so that isn't terribly helpful. My problem is that my experiments have a way of growing on me, I don't just sell them off or throw them out. So any shortcuts taken do end up costing me.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> Hiya, Thomas
>
> I believe you. Have seen the solid job you made of EEEK!
>
>
Hiya, Thomas
I believe you. Have seen the solid job you made of EEEK!
I'm mostly trying to have this kayak from stuff that's lying around.
Some sheets of Sureply, dacron, ringnails, 2 kinds of glue and some
paint. Spent about $30 on some molding for the timbers.
Mostly just to mess around. It will degrade more gracefully. A decent
hedge against the plywood checking.
I've got a panel here with half a dozen swatches of the dacron stuck
to it. Titebond, Kilz2 and Acrylic Latex paint.
The glue must technically adhere the best. It is slicker than the
paint, was fussy to get right, and could end up either way needing
sanding against the very light cloth. Surprise, the primered bits
just peel right off. The paint on the other hand saturates the cloth
both easily and well. It bonds strongly. The 4 oz. aircraft dacron is
so finely woven, I'm guessing just two or three coats more to fill
it. At this scale about a quart.
100% acrilic paint for this, in order to have the best adhesion and
water resistance of the latexes.
bye
I believe you. Have seen the solid job you made of EEEK!
I'm mostly trying to have this kayak from stuff that's lying around.
Some sheets of Sureply, dacron, ringnails, 2 kinds of glue and some
paint. Spent about $30 on some molding for the timbers.
Mostly just to mess around. It will degrade more gracefully. A decent
hedge against the plywood checking.
I've got a panel here with half a dozen swatches of the dacron stuck
to it. Titebond, Kilz2 and Acrylic Latex paint.
The glue must technically adhere the best. It is slicker than the
paint, was fussy to get right, and could end up either way needing
sanding against the very light cloth. Surprise, the primered bits
just peel right off. The paint on the other hand saturates the cloth
both easily and well. It bonds strongly. The 4 oz. aircraft dacron is
so finely woven, I'm guessing just two or three coats more to fill
it. At this scale about a quart.
100% acrilic paint for this, in order to have the best adhesion and
water resistance of the latexes.
bye
On Jan 25, 2010, at 3:08 PM, proaconstrictor wrote:
> I've only ever regretted the situations where I didn't glass
> enough, never the ones where I did. It saves money and time not to
> glass, and it will all be spent many times over, later.
>
When I rebuilt the cabin interior of Esther Mae I used the Six 10 to place a new frame, longitudinal stringers, the tops of the seats etc to the hull and the tops of the seats to the frame and stringer as needed. It was perfect as I used a little at a time without worrying about the set time as each piece had the Six 10 applied when needed within a reasonable time frame. It made for a very neat job in a somewhat confined space. I will certainly use it in the future when the situation makes it viable.
~Caloosarat
A little OT, but I have been eying my dollar store, they now have a fairly large packet of epoxy for a dollar. I have yet to try it out. In particular it would be interesting to see if it can be mixed with any of the boat building brands to accelerate the cure. Stuff like hull scarphs can benefit from a faster curing time, as with the G5 and 205/105 from West. Since scarphs normally get an overlay of glass anyway, they aren't as highly loaded in planking as one might imagine.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jdmeddock" <jmeddock@...> wrote:
>
>
> The home improvement stores have epoxy mix tubes intended for
> bonding rebar or lag bolts/allthread in cured concrete.
> I bought a tube of Sikkens epoxy a while back intending to do some joint testing but never used it. It is less than $20 and comes with extra mixing tips.
>
> No reason you couldn't just pump a bit out without the mixing tip installed and mix it with a spreader on a piece cardboard or plastic.
>
> Justin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dovekie107" <gunkholer@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I just used WEST Six 10 for the first time this week - the stuff is great! Fast, easy, and clean - unfortunatly, not cheap. But for a smallish project like your pirogue I'd say it's well worth the small investment.
> >
> > I'm building an 18' Michalak/Culler Batto/Otter fast rowing bateau- I used 2 1/2 tubes for the inside fillets. I applied the epoxy while the garage was cold - 40ish degrees, then turned the heater on after I was done fairing and brought the temp up to 70 for an hour or so. It kicked off in that time.
> >
> > I'm very pleased with the product and will use it again.
> >
> > Jake
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any experience with the West System Six 10 thickened epoxy that comes in something like a caulking tube/cartridge?
> > >
> > > I am considering building a very small Pirogue (8 feet long, 20 inch beam) and I think I could get by with just one cartridge of Six 10, which is only 20 dollars. The West 105 epoxy resin is going to cost over 50 dollars for a quart and a pint.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any input.
> > >
> > > Blll
> > >
> >
>
I've only ever regretted the situations where I didn't glass enough, never the ones where I did. It saves money and time not to glass, and it will all be spent many times over, later.
Compared to mixing your own epoxy, a tube of epoxy ready mix is incredibly expensive.
Buy epoxy in quantities larger than you expect to use. It keeps for ever. Mix your own. 2:1 System 3 or Raka is easy to use. Buy fillers or use what you have. Garden lime works well as does sanding dust. I don't know anything that prevents sagging/running like silica does. But wood powder, silica, and microballoons are cheap, at least cheaper than buying epoxy with thickener already added. I use paper cups with measurements on the sides for most things, but have used syringes to measure small amounts.
Regards other materials for doing things cheap... its usually the more expensive way to do it if you value your time at all. Often the cost is up front, but greater maintenance, and/or early replacement costs more than make up for using cheap material. Use the cheap stuff for experiments that are meant to be destroyed when the experiment is finished.
The cardboard boxes that refrigerators come in are great for doing mock-ups before committing wood to the situation.
Eric
Buy epoxy in quantities larger than you expect to use. It keeps for ever. Mix your own. 2:1 System 3 or Raka is easy to use. Buy fillers or use what you have. Garden lime works well as does sanding dust. I don't know anything that prevents sagging/running like silica does. But wood powder, silica, and microballoons are cheap, at least cheaper than buying epoxy with thickener already added. I use paper cups with measurements on the sides for most things, but have used syringes to measure small amounts.
Regards other materials for doing things cheap... its usually the more expensive way to do it if you value your time at all. Often the cost is up front, but greater maintenance, and/or early replacement costs more than make up for using cheap material. Use the cheap stuff for experiments that are meant to be destroyed when the experiment is finished.
The cardboard boxes that refrigerators come in are great for doing mock-ups before committing wood to the situation.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jdmeddock" <jmeddock@...> wrote:
>
>
> The home improvement stores have epoxy mix tubes intended for
> bonding rebar or lag bolts/allthread in cured concrete.
> I bought a tube of Sikkens epoxy a while back intending to do some joint testing but never used it. It is less than $20 and comes with extra mixing tips.
>
> No reason you couldn't just pump a bit out without the mixing tip installed and mix it with a spreader on a piece cardboard or plastic.
>
> Justin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dovekie107" <gunkholer@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I just used WEST Six 10 for the first time this week - the stuff is great! Fast, easy, and clean - unfortunatly, not cheap. But for a smallish project like your pirogue I'd say it's well worth the small investment.
> >
> > I'm building an 18' Michalak/Culler Batto/Otter fast rowing bateau- I used 2 1/2 tubes for the inside fillets. I applied the epoxy while the garage was cold - 40ish degrees, then turned the heater on after I was done fairing and brought the temp up to 70 for an hour or so. It kicked off in that time.
> >
> > I'm very pleased with the product and will use it again.
> >
> > Jake
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any experience with the West System Six 10 thickened epoxy that comes in something like a caulking tube/cartridge?
> > >
> > > I am considering building a very small Pirogue (8 feet long, 20 inch beam) and I think I could get by with just one cartridge of Six 10, which is only 20 dollars. The West 105 epoxy resin is going to cost over 50 dollars for a quart and a pint.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any input.
> > >
> > > Blll
> > >
> >
>
The home improvement stores have epoxy mix tubes intended for
bonding rebar or lag bolts/allthread in cured concrete.
I bought a tube of Sikkens epoxy a while back intending to do some joint testing but never used it. It is less than $20 and comes with extra mixing tips.
No reason you couldn't just pump a bit out without the mixing tip installed and mix it with a spreader on a piece cardboard or plastic.
Justin
bonding rebar or lag bolts/allthread in cured concrete.
I bought a tube of Sikkens epoxy a while back intending to do some joint testing but never used it. It is less than $20 and comes with extra mixing tips.
No reason you couldn't just pump a bit out without the mixing tip installed and mix it with a spreader on a piece cardboard or plastic.
Justin
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dovekie107" <gunkholer@...> wrote:
>
>
> Bill,
>
> I just used WEST Six 10 for the first time this week - the stuff is great! Fast, easy, and clean - unfortunatly, not cheap. But for a smallish project like your pirogue I'd say it's well worth the small investment.
>
> I'm building an 18' Michalak/Culler Batto/Otter fast rowing bateau- I used 2 1/2 tubes for the inside fillets. I applied the epoxy while the garage was cold - 40ish degrees, then turned the heater on after I was done fairing and brought the temp up to 70 for an hour or so. It kicked off in that time.
>
> I'm very pleased with the product and will use it again.
>
> Jake
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@ wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi all.
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience with the West System Six 10 thickened epoxy that comes in something like a caulking tube/cartridge?
> >
> > I am considering building a very small Pirogue (8 feet long, 20 inch beam) and I think I could get by with just one cartridge of Six 10, which is only 20 dollars. The West 105 epoxy resin is going to cost over 50 dollars for a quart and a pint.
> >
> > Thanks for any input.
> >
> > Blll
> >
>
On Jan 23, 2010, at 4:51 AM, Fred Schumacher wrote:
This stuff is made to give you extra grip. That means when you slid over rocks, you'll stick. I think you want something that would give more of a teflon finish.
Flies in the buttermilk! Thanks for setting me straight, Fred. Sometimes there's nothing for it but to do it right.
On Jan 23, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
I actually tried this once, using cloth strips ripped from
an old shirt, and leftover latex paint. The paint adhered
the cloth to the wood plenty strong.
That'd be appropriate to what I've got. The chines are plenty strong already with PL and ring nails. Just want to cover the plywood edge. Sheesh! Might do the entire bottom this way. I've got some leftover aircraft dacron too. With epoxy and glass that'd cost more than all the rest of it put together.
Oh, I love you guys!
Bill,
I just used WEST Six 10 for the first time this week - the stuff is great! Fast, easy, and clean - unfortunatly, not cheap. But for a smallish project like your pirogue I'd say it's well worth the small investment.
I'm building an 18' Michalak/Culler Batto/Otter fast rowing bateau- I used 2 1/2 tubes for the inside fillets. I applied the epoxy while the garage was cold - 40ish degrees, then turned the heater on after I was done fairing and brought the temp up to 70 for an hour or so. It kicked off in that time.
I'm very pleased with the product and will use it again.
Jake
I just used WEST Six 10 for the first time this week - the stuff is great! Fast, easy, and clean - unfortunatly, not cheap. But for a smallish project like your pirogue I'd say it's well worth the small investment.
I'm building an 18' Michalak/Culler Batto/Otter fast rowing bateau- I used 2 1/2 tubes for the inside fillets. I applied the epoxy while the garage was cold - 40ish degrees, then turned the heater on after I was done fairing and brought the temp up to 70 for an hour or so. It kicked off in that time.
I'm very pleased with the product and will use it again.
Jake
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi all.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with the West System Six 10 thickened epoxy that comes in something like a caulking tube/cartridge?
>
> I am considering building a very small Pirogue (8 feet long, 20 inch beam) and I think I could get by with just one cartridge of Six 10, which is only 20 dollars. The West 105 epoxy resin is going to cost over 50 dollars for a quart and a pint.
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Blll
>
I have owned a few of those boats Doug . I continue to build boats like that not every body can handle the maintenace LOL , later form the south end of the Chesapeake
david johnson
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Douglas Pollard<dougpol1@...>wrote:There are boats that were not designed but evolved over time that use no
glue at all and are only covered with paint. They aren't even held to
geather with screws they are nailed. Water men have trusted their lives
to them for hundreds of years and many have lasted a lifetime. You can't
haul them around on a trailer though , they have to be kept swelled and
wet and they all leak a little, but they are good boats. If You live
near the water you can likely keep it tied close to shore for $50.00 a
month. You can't take it on vacation with you you have to go to it for a
vacation on the water. When I was a boy we built them out of house
lumber and used plain old steel nails. You have to re-nail every few
years but they last until you run out of space to drive nails. Maybe 20
years. If all a guy wants is a nice little fishing boat this is a good
option. Of course I would recommend at least galvanized nails. People
used to put sails on these boats and sail them across the Chesapeake bay
and about anyplace they wanted to go. Most did not have centerboards but
they sailed pretty good even to windward if everybody sat on one side to
get the chine deep in the water. They were just as much fun as one put
together with epoxy and fiberglass. Howard Shappel has some drawings in
his book with length to width ratios so anyone can build them. Doug
Fred Schumacher wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...
> <mailto:marka97203@...>> wrote:
>
> Bruce, I'm trying to stay cheap by avoiding epoxy and tape to clad
> the external timber chines and plywood end grain on my little
> Cruising Kayak. Thought of Plasti Dip, the tool handle stuff, and
> in shopping for it came upon this product review at the bottom of
> the page.
>
>
> This stuff is made to give you extra grip. That means when you slid
> over rocks, you'll stick. I think you want something that would give
> more of a teflon finish.
>
> Fred
>
------------------------------------
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I have used lots of west system but not this particular product.
the gotcha with this kind of delivery system is the mixing applicator.
if used in small batches it hardens up in the tube and any cost savings is rapidly used up by buying replacement mixers. If you use the manual mixing method method as shown on the website. I would say to use it. You cannot beat epoxy and in 25 years of boat repair I have never had a problem with west system. You will have a much longer lifespan of the boat if you give all end grain a coat or two of epoxy. A cheap and effective way to greatly reduce checking is to get a can of penitrol and follow the directions on the can to reduce plywood checking and finish with oil based porch and deck enamel.
This works!
mike
the gotcha with this kind of delivery system is the mixing applicator.
if used in small batches it hardens up in the tube and any cost savings is rapidly used up by buying replacement mixers. If you use the manual mixing method method as shown on the website. I would say to use it. You cannot beat epoxy and in 25 years of boat repair I have never had a problem with west system. You will have a much longer lifespan of the boat if you give all end grain a coat or two of epoxy. A cheap and effective way to greatly reduce checking is to get a can of penitrol and follow the directions on the can to reduce plywood checking and finish with oil based porch and deck enamel.
This works!
mike
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi all.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with the West System Six 10 thickened epoxy that comes in something like a caulking tube/cartridge?
>
> I am considering building a very small Pirogue (8 feet long, 20 inch beam) and I think I could get by with just one cartridge of Six 10, which is only 20 dollars. The West 105 epoxy resin is going to cost over 50 dollars for a quart and a pint.
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Blll
>
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 6:50 AM, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
an old shirt, and leftover latex paint. The paint adhered
the cloth to the wood plenty strong.
> no glue at all and are only covered with paint.I actually tried this once, using cloth strips ripped from
an old shirt, and leftover latex paint. The paint adhered
the cloth to the wood plenty strong.
There are boats that were not designed but evolved over time that use no
glue at all and are only covered with paint. They aren't even held to
geather with screws they are nailed. Water men have trusted their lives
to them for hundreds of years and many have lasted a lifetime. You can't
haul them around on a trailer though , they have to be kept swelled and
wet and they all leak a little, but they are good boats. If You live
near the water you can likely keep it tied close to shore for $50.00 a
month. You can't take it on vacation with you you have to go to it for a
vacation on the water. When I was a boy we built them out of house
lumber and used plain old steel nails. You have to re-nail every few
years but they last until you run out of space to drive nails. Maybe 20
years. If all a guy wants is a nice little fishing boat this is a good
option. Of course I would recommend at least galvanized nails. People
used to put sails on these boats and sail them across the Chesapeake bay
and about anyplace they wanted to go. Most did not have centerboards but
they sailed pretty good even to windward if everybody sat on one side to
get the chine deep in the water. They were just as much fun as one put
together with epoxy and fiberglass. Howard Shappel has some drawings in
his book with length to width ratios so anyone can build them. Doug
Fred Schumacher wrote:
glue at all and are only covered with paint. They aren't even held to
geather with screws they are nailed. Water men have trusted their lives
to them for hundreds of years and many have lasted a lifetime. You can't
haul them around on a trailer though , they have to be kept swelled and
wet and they all leak a little, but they are good boats. If You live
near the water you can likely keep it tied close to shore for $50.00 a
month. You can't take it on vacation with you you have to go to it for a
vacation on the water. When I was a boy we built them out of house
lumber and used plain old steel nails. You have to re-nail every few
years but they last until you run out of space to drive nails. Maybe 20
years. If all a guy wants is a nice little fishing boat this is a good
option. Of course I would recommend at least galvanized nails. People
used to put sails on these boats and sail them across the Chesapeake bay
and about anyplace they wanted to go. Most did not have centerboards but
they sailed pretty good even to windward if everybody sat on one side to
get the chine deep in the water. They were just as much fun as one put
together with epoxy and fiberglass. Howard Shappel has some drawings in
his book with length to width ratios so anyone can build them. Doug
Fred Schumacher wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...
> <mailto:marka97203@...>> wrote:
>
> Bruce, I'm trying to stay cheap by avoiding epoxy and tape to clad
> the external timber chines and plywood end grain on my little
> Cruising Kayak. Thought of Plasti Dip, the tool handle stuff, and
> in shopping for it came upon this product review at the bottom of
> the page.
>
>
> This stuff is made to give you extra grip. That means when you slid
> over rocks, you'll stick. I think you want something that would give
> more of a teflon finish.
>
> Fred
>
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Mark Albanese<marka97203@...>wrote:Bruce, I'm trying to stay cheap by avoiding epoxy and tape to clad the external timber chines and plywood end grain on my little Cruising Kayak. Thought of Plasti Dip, the tool handle stuff, and in shopping for it came upon this product review at the bottom of the page.
This stuff is made to give you extra grip. That means when you slid over rocks, you'll stick. I think you want something that would give more of a teflon finish.
Fred
Bruce, I'm trying to stay cheap by avoiding epoxy and tape to clad the external timber chines and plywood end grain on my little Cruising Kayak. Thought of Plasti Dip, the tool handle stuff, and in shopping for it came upon this product review at the bottom of the page.
Machado the Fish Hunter wasn't available through google for more info. A long list of applications at the makers site includes armoring kayak keels.
Must finish the trunk and deck, but 1 or 2 cans ought to do it. Very tempted to experiment.
Mark
On Jan 22, 2010, at 11:50 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
Bill, it sounds like you are wanting to be frugal when building your
pirogue. Good, I feel similar when I build boats.
Bill, it sounds like you are wanting to be frugal when building your
pirogue. Good, I feel similar when I build boats. It is entirely
reasonable and possible to build a pirogue without using epoxy at all.
The chines of boats fasten best with the use of mechanical fasteners,
like nails. Sealing of cracks to make things waterproof is easily
done with many compounds, including standard $3 construction grade
caulking.
pirogue. Good, I feel similar when I build boats. It is entirely
reasonable and possible to build a pirogue without using epoxy at all.
The chines of boats fasten best with the use of mechanical fasteners,
like nails. Sealing of cracks to make things waterproof is easily
done with many compounds, including standard $3 construction grade
caulking.
Hi all.
Does anyone have any experience with the West System Six 10 thickened epoxy that comes in something like a caulking tube/cartridge?
I am considering building a very small Pirogue (8 feet long, 20 inch beam) and I think I could get by with just one cartridge of Six 10, which is only 20 dollars. The West 105 epoxy resin is going to cost over 50 dollars for a quart and a pint.
Thanks for any input.
Blll
Just chiming in with a little safety alert--you guys realize (I hope) that working with green epoxy is dangerous. The hardener will mess you up same as if the epoxy was fresh mixed. So don't get lazy, wear a good mask (I always used a charcoal respirator), gloves, don't work green epoxy without gloves and Tyvek, same as if you were wetting something out. You don't want to sensitize yourself.
MAS epoxy IS in fact a lot more limber than WEST. I've used a bunch of it, and it's actually a little weird if you're used to WEST. MAS will cold-flow for quite a long time after curing. Eventually it sets up rock hard but if I'm fabricating large glass parts, I like WEST since when it sets, it's done moving. You gotta be careful with MAS in that regard though I like the stuff fine. Just different. The mixing ratios make it a hell of lot easier to use in bulk (you can lay up say ten layers of 1708 on a flat surface with MAS, and it'll take several days to lose a taffy-like ability to relax into a new shape... kinda weird)
MAS epoxy IS in fact a lot more limber than WEST. I've used a bunch of it, and it's actually a little weird if you're used to WEST. MAS will cold-flow for quite a long time after curing. Eventually it sets up rock hard but if I'm fabricating large glass parts, I like WEST since when it sets, it's done moving. You gotta be careful with MAS in that regard though I like the stuff fine. Just different. The mixing ratios make it a hell of lot easier to use in bulk (you can lay up say ten layers of 1708 on a flat surface with MAS, and it'll take several days to lose a taffy-like ability to relax into a new shape... kinda weird)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Walter" <walter@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Walter" <walter@> wrote:
> > I use the scraper between coats, when the resin is not too hard.
> >
> > Walter,
> >
> > Would love to hear more about this!
> >
> > Do you use the scraper for knocking off runs for example?
> >
> > When you say "the resin is not too hard". Is that when it is about the
> > hardness of being able to still become indented with a finger nail?
> >
> > I'm thinking that when it is still too soft to sand you can scrape it
> > and not get involved with sanding dust and sandpaper filling up with
> > gunk.
> >
> > Any particular type of scraper you prefer? Do you have to
> > re-file/re-hook them often?
> >
> > Nels
> >
>
>
> Nels - yes, use the scraper to knock off runs, bumps, etc.
> I usually scrape the next day, your description above is good. If the resin is fully cured, it's too hard to scrape and must be sanded. You do need the resin fully cured before you paint.
> Any kind of scraper you like will work. I use a 6" cabinet scraper. Re-sharpen as necessary- you will know when it gets dull.
>
Here's an idea that I have been contemplating - only somewhat on subject:
1) Hard chine hull - maybe even flat bottom, plumb sides
2) MUCH cheaper than ply and going to use epoxy anyway which seals it all up so no contraction and expansion: to make it FAST just strip plank with 2x12's that are edge glued with epoxy and to the frames.
3) Coat inside and outside with epoxy primer, fair, and put a couple of coats of epoxy paint
Any reason this won't work well? Granted, there will not be the abrasion resistance of fiberglass...
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: dennis-mcfadden@...
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:50:40 -0800
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing question
1) Hard chine hull - maybe even flat bottom, plumb sides
2) MUCH cheaper than ply and going to use epoxy anyway which seals it all up so no contraction and expansion: to make it FAST just strip plank with 2x12's that are edge glued with epoxy and to the frames.
3) Coat inside and outside with epoxy primer, fair, and put a couple of coats of epoxy paint
Any reason this won't work well? Granted, there will not be the abrasion resistance of fiberglass...
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: dennis-mcfadden@...
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:50:40 -0800
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing question
Nels, Walter et al .. I build small boats, sea kayaks to be precise and also have taken to using a scraper to deal with bumps, runs and what have you. I use cabinet scrapers and yes I file and rehook as needed, not a big deal. How often depends upon the cure, the temperature, how much dust landed in the finish etc. In other words there is a lot of "feel" to this, nothing that you won't figure out in short order.
Dennis
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
From: arvent@hotmail. com
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:20:32 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing question
Windows Live Messenger makes it easier to stay in touch –learn how!
Dennis
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
From: arvent@hotmail. com
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:20:32 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing question
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "Walter" <walter@...> wrote:
I use the scraper between coats, when the resin is not too hard.
Walter,
Would love to hear more about this!
Do you use the scraper for knocking off runs for example?
When you say "the resin is not too hard". Is that when it is about the
hardness of being able to still become indented with a finger nail?
I'm thinking that when it is still too soft to sand you can scrape it
and not get involved with sanding dust and sandpaper filling up with
gunk.
Any particular type of scraper you prefer? Do you have to
re-file/re-hook them often?
Nels
Windows Live Messenger makes it easier to stay in touch –learn how!
Yes, to the message about the ply face checking. In
my experience, fir plywillcheck, period, inside the boat or out, if
not sheathed; but oukoume will not; so I agree with System Three that you need
not sheathe everything on a Bolber boat above the waterline -- if you use
oukoume or other such plywood. If anybody does know a way to finish fir ply so
that it doesn't check, please tell us all. Ken Swan told me that people build
his flatties on the West Coast and oil them with something that works but I'd
almost have to see it to believe it. I just don't use fir. 'taint wuth
it.
We've been talking about
sheathing a Micro, but mine isn't sheathed, on the sides or cabin top, and is
none the worse for the lack. Okoume.
----- Original Message -----From:GBroadlick@...Sent:Wednesday, January 20, 2010 12:00 AMSubject:Re: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing questionthe glass and epoxy will keep the ply face from checking
-----Original Message-----
From: eric14850 <eric14850@yahoo. com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, Jan 19, 2010 7:25 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing questionSystem Three is correct except, in use, my boat gets banged around and fiberglassed topsides are a significant level of protection as well as strength. I've seen crazed decks (gel coat) and don't every want to be there. Epoxy is also brittle to some degree. WEST more so, System Three less so. Raka about like system three. And when I talked to MAZ they claimed to be same elasticity as wood (ash). I feel, but do not know for sure, that glass will significantly help prevent the epoxy from cracking. I finished my transom bright. When you are close to it you can notice some places where the two oz cloth weave shows where I could not wet it out without trapping just enough air to show the weave. Four inch cherry. No blemishes. I sand lightly and recoat with UV varnish every year.
I built a skiff with BC pine plywood and never liked the paint only finish. Vowed to always cover with epoxy glass before painting.
I agree with Adirondack about filling cloth before fairing.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> According to the The Epoxy Book from System Three, there is no need to
> fiberglass the topsides of plywood boats unless it is fir plywood.
> Simply glass the joints and seal the plywood with 2 or 3 coats of their
> epoxy.
>
> If you have to glass the topsides, try to get some slant to the surface
> and avoid doing it vertically. Then basically follow the instructions
> here.
>
>http://www.pygmyboa ts.com/The_ Epoxy_Book. pdf
>
> No fillers, no sanding.
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> <wetherillc@ > wrote:
> >
> > Col,
> >
> > Given the range of suggestions, and the scope of the project, maybe it
> > would be a good idea to do a couple of test/practice panels.
> >
> > V/R
> > Chris
> >
>
the glass and epoxy will keep the ply face from checking
-----Original Message-----
From: eric14850 <eric14850@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jan 19, 2010 7:25 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing question
From: eric14850 <eric14850@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jan 19, 2010 7:25 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing question
System Three is correct except, in use, my boat gets banged around and fiberglassed topsides are a significant level of protection as well as strength. I've seen crazed decks (gel coat) and don't every want to be there. Epoxy is also brittle to some degree. WEST more so, System Three less so. Raka about like system three. And when I talked to MAZ they claimed to be same elasticity as wood (ash). I feel, but do not know for sure, that glass will significantly help prevent the epoxy from cracking. I finished my transom bright. When you are close to it you can notice some places where the two oz cloth weave shows where I could not wet it out without trapping just enough air to show the weave. Four inch cherry. No blemishes. I sand lightly and recoat with UV varnish every year.
I built a skiff with BC pine plywood and never liked the paint only finish. Vowed to always cover with epoxy glass before painting.
I agree with Adirondack about filling cloth before fairing.
Eric
I built a skiff with BC pine plywood and never liked the paint only finish. Vowed to always cover with epoxy glass before painting.
I agree with Adirondack about filling cloth before fairing.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> According to the The Epoxy Book from System Three, there is no need to
> fiberglass the topsides of plywood boats unless it is fir plywood.
> Simply glass the joints and seal the plywood with 2 or 3 coats of their
> epoxy.
>
> If you have to glass the topsides, try to get some slant to the surface
> and avoid doing it vertically. Then basically follow the instructions
> here.
>
>http://www.pygmyboa ts.com/The_ Epoxy_Book. pdf
>
> No fillers, no sanding.
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> <wetherillc@ > wrote:
> >
> > Col,
> >
> > Given the range of suggestions, and the scope of the project, maybe it
> > would be a good idea to do a couple of test/practice panels.
> >
> > V/R
> > Chris
> >
>
System Three is correct except, in use, my boat gets banged around and fiberglassed topsides are a significant level of protection as well as strength. I've seen crazed decks (gel coat) and don't every want to be there. Epoxy is also brittle to some degree. WEST more so, System Three less so. Raka about like system three. And when I talked to MAZ they claimed to be same elasticity as wood (ash). I feel, but do not know for sure, that glass will significantly help prevent the epoxy from cracking. I finished my transom bright. When you are close to it you can notice some places where the two oz cloth weave shows where I could not wet it out without trapping just enough air to show the weave. Four inch cherry. No blemishes. I sand lightly and recoat with UV varnish every year.
I built a skiff with BC pine plywood and never liked the paint only finish. Vowed to always cover with epoxy glass before painting.
I agree with Adirondack about filling cloth before fairing.
Eric
I built a skiff with BC pine plywood and never liked the paint only finish. Vowed to always cover with epoxy glass before painting.
I agree with Adirondack about filling cloth before fairing.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> According to the The Epoxy Book from System Three, there is no need to
> fiberglass the topsides of plywood boats unless it is fir plywood.
> Simply glass the joints and seal the plywood with 2 or 3 coats of their
> epoxy.
>
> If you have to glass the topsides, try to get some slant to the surface
> and avoid doing it vertically. Then basically follow the instructions
> here.
>
>http://www.pygmyboats.com/The_Epoxy_Book.pdf
>
> No fillers, no sanding.
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
> <wetherillc@> wrote:
> >
> > Col,
> >
> > Given the range of suggestions, and the scope of the project, maybe it
> > would be a good idea to do a couple of test/practice panels.
> >
> > V/R
> > Chris
> >
>
The two best tools I've found to work cured and green epoxy are scrapers and a Shinto rasp. The rasp (made from stacked hacksaw like blades) has coarse and fine sides and works great on working wood too. I think they are my best boat building tools. As far as scrapers go, I have cabinet type ones, but mainly use the paint removing types because the handles give better leverage. I keep a good hook using a grinder, lightly and often. I've used scrapers to knock the edges off multiple layers of tape (like 2" on top of 3" on top of 4") to a very smooth finish, then coated it again and not had to sand at all.
I think this discussion on applying cloth is great. I apply cloth to raw wood because I feel the absorption into the wood also sucks the cloth against the wood and I mostly use a squeegee. If the finished surface is to be painted as opposed to clear coated, the idea of using a thickener like micro ballons sounds like a good one. It's like starting with fairing compound before your sanding process creates an unfair surface. One point that hasn't been mentioned concerning pre-coating the wood is that once the epoxy is cured it requires sanding before the next application and even after sanding you just get a mechanical bond, whereas if you apply subsequent layers to green cured epoxy you get both mechanical and chemical bonds.
I'd like to see a thread that strives toward building a boat without any sanding.
Rick
I think this discussion on applying cloth is great. I apply cloth to raw wood because I feel the absorption into the wood also sucks the cloth against the wood and I mostly use a squeegee. If the finished surface is to be painted as opposed to clear coated, the idea of using a thickener like micro ballons sounds like a good one. It's like starting with fairing compound before your sanding process creates an unfair surface. One point that hasn't been mentioned concerning pre-coating the wood is that once the epoxy is cured it requires sanding before the next application and even after sanding you just get a mechanical bond, whereas if you apply subsequent layers to green cured epoxy you get both mechanical and chemical bonds.
I'd like to see a thread that strives toward building a boat without any sanding.
Rick
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Mcfadden <dennis-mcfadden@...> wrote:
>
>
> Nels, Walter et al .. I build small boats, sea kayaks to be precise and also have taken to using a scraper to deal with bumps, runs and what have you. I use cabinet scrapers and yes I file and rehook as needed, not a big deal. How often depends upon the cure, the temperature, how much dust landed in the finish etc. In other words there is a lot of "feel" to this, nothing that you won't figure out in short order.
>
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From: arvent@...
> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:20:32 +0000
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing question
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Walter" <walter@> wrote:
> I use the scraper between coats, when the resin is not too hard.
>
> Walter,
>
> Would love to hear more about this!
>
> Do you use the scraper for knocking off runs for example?
>
> When you say "the resin is not too hard". Is that when it is about the
> hardness of being able to still become indented with a finger nail?
>
> I'm thinking that when it is still too soft to sand you can scrape it
> and not get involved with sanding dust and sandpaper filling up with
> gunk.
>
> Any particular type of scraper you prefer? Do you have to
> re-file/re-hook them often?
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Say Happy New Year with Messenger for Mobile.
>http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706117
>
> Alaskan Skiff builder, Ren Tolman, glasses the panels prior to assembly. seems like a reasonable solution and one I wish I had tried, although the finish of my work skiff is pretty smooth.Bolger was big on prefinishing panels flat. But I have read that cured epoxy to fresh epoxy bonds are not as strong as a "cured all together" bond, thus doing the outer sheath all at once on an inverted hull may be best.
Please understand I'm not saying prefinished panels will fall apart later. Clearly that is not true. I am saying I've read that it is optimal to do the sheathing as close to all at once as possible.
Don
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
I usually scrape the next day, your description above is good. If the resin is fully cured, it's too hard to scrape and must be sanded. You do need the resin fully cured before you paint.
Any kind of scraper you like will work. I use a 6" cabinet scraper. Re-sharpen as necessary- you will know when it gets dull.
>Nels - yes, use the scraper to knock off runs, bumps, etc.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Walter" <walter@> wrote:
> I use the scraper between coats, when the resin is not too hard.
>
> Walter,
>
> Would love to hear more about this!
>
> Do you use the scraper for knocking off runs for example?
>
> When you say "the resin is not too hard". Is that when it is about the
> hardness of being able to still become indented with a finger nail?
>
> I'm thinking that when it is still too soft to sand you can scrape it
> and not get involved with sanding dust and sandpaper filling up with
> gunk.
>
> Any particular type of scraper you prefer? Do you have to
> re-file/re-hook them often?
>
> Nels
>
I usually scrape the next day, your description above is good. If the resin is fully cured, it's too hard to scrape and must be sanded. You do need the resin fully cured before you paint.
Any kind of scraper you like will work. I use a 6" cabinet scraper. Re-sharpen as necessary- you will know when it gets dull.
Nels, Walter et al .. I build small boats, sea kayaks to be precise and also have taken to using a scraper to deal with bumps, runs and what have you. I use cabinet scrapers and yes I file and rehook as needed, not a big deal. How often depends upon the cure, the temperature, how much dust landed in the finish etc. In other words there is a lot of "feel" to this, nothing that you won't figure out in short order.
Dennis
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: arvent@...
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:20:32 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing question
Windows Live Messenger makes it easier to stay in touch –learn how!
Dennis
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: arvent@...
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:20:32 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing question
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "Walter" <walter@...> wrote:
I use the scraper between coats, when the resin is not too hard.
Walter,
Would love to hear more about this!
Do you use the scraper for knocking off runs for example?
When you say "the resin is not too hard". Is that when it is about the
hardness of being able to still become indented with a finger nail?
I'm thinking that when it is still too soft to sand you can scrape it
and not get involved with sanding dust and sandpaper filling up with
gunk.
Any particular type of scraper you prefer? Do you have to
re-file/re-hook them often?
Nels
Windows Live Messenger makes it easier to stay in touch –learn how!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Walter" <walter@...> wrote:
I use the scraper between coats, when the resin is not too hard.
Walter,
Would love to hear more about this!
Do you use the scraper for knocking off runs for example?
When you say "the resin is not too hard". Is that when it is about the
hardness of being able to still become indented with a finger nail?
I'm thinking that when it is still too soft to sand you can scrape it
and not get involved with sanding dust and sandpaper filling up with
gunk.
Any particular type of scraper you prefer? Do you have to
re-file/re-hook them often?
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>I agree with Mason Smith - start with bare wood, squeegee on the 'glass with basically minimum resin. 2 more thin coats of resin. I use the scraper between coats, when the resin is not too hard. Then minimum sanding , 80 grit, 120 max. I do use primer, Petit Hi Build 6148, then 2 coats Petit Easypoxy. So not exactly the same but pretty similar. It only took me about 25 years of building boats to figure this one out.
> Bruce, I hesitate to question you but am still dubious about any thickener in epoxy intended to penetrate wood and wet out cloth. The manufacturers over the years have been giving us lower-viscosity epoxies for these purposes, and I've appreciated it. If we don't want cloth to float, and do want it completely saturated, I can't see adding thickeners to the goop, and there will be no runs if we squeegee the cloth firmly to the plywood, always ensuring that both cloth and wood get what they need to drink. Here's a relevant anecdote. I make vacuum-laminated Constant Camber hull panels, no? My mold presents is parabolic in cross section, presenting two slopes (side and bottom of the hull panel), and a round bilge curve between them, minimum of 10" radius. I uised to mix quite a lot of wood flour into the glue between layers of cedar veneer, to keep it from running off the last layer while I was stapling on the new one. Last two boats, at Jim Brown's suggestion, I skipped the thickener. To my surprise, I got less or no run-off, even with plenty of glue; and ended by making lighter, cheaper, smoother, better panels. I trace my half-hull template on each panel, then sheathe with 4 or 6 oz while they are on the mold, by the method I described earlier. So I repeat my suggestions: no thickener, excess glue thoroughly squeegeed out of cloth, thin succeeding coat or coats, almost no sanding, then no primer, just paint. If you musts use a primer, use a two part one over epoxy. I have been around the course on this. You won't necessarily have a failure if you don't follow this last rule, but a failure is not unlikely enough to suit me.
>
Right. The curvature is everything. Tolman's skiffs are multichined boats with a gentle V bottom and relatively straight runs. I think that on Micro these might crack towards Frame A when put under compression. It probably would have worked on the Work Skiff. Quite honestly, if I were to do this again, the most important aspect of the job would be to get the work up to a decent working height to avoid all that bending over!
Good thought.
David
Good thought.
David
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> I remember Joe Norton (name? Michigan builder I think) teaching boatbuilding at WB School, showing my Constant Camber class how to coat plywood before cutting parts out of it, a pretty good idea. Also Jim Brown pointing out that if I sheathe my CC panels before the boat is assembled, in the squeezing of the panels together at the stem I'm going to flatten the curvature and craze the glass-to-plywood bond. So to David's post about the Alaskan Skiff builder glassing panels prior to assembly, well, yes if the curvature isn't going to be much and especially if it isn't going to put the glass in compression. No good reason to do it on a Micro.
> By the way, I've come to like taping seams after the sheathing, and where using more than one layer of tape, putting on the widest tape first, narrowest last. I then use a sharp block plane to cut the high edges off the tapes, and a little board-sanding with 80 when hard, Usually no grinding. If for cosmetic reasons we don't want to see the evidence of tape, fairing after it is well coated if not filled, with straight epoxy. I feel that fairing mixtures are compromised and should go on only after essential bonding and coating is complete and even then they usually need recoating with straight stuff.
> I am talking too much and will shut up.
>
> From: dnjost
> To: bolger@ yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 1:52 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re:Fibreglassing question
>
>
>
>
> Alaskan Skiff builder, Ren Tolman, glasses the panels prior to assembly. seems like a reasonable solution and one I wish I had tried, although the finish of my work skiff is pretty smooth. For what it's worth, I used thin, slow cure, epoxy so it sank into the weave and wood pretty well, then used the squeegee approach for the final two coats. minimal sanding was involved and it did not take too long.
>
> doing the interior woodwork is a pain this time of year.
>
> David Jost
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@> wrote:
> >
> > I did most of the glassing on Micro3 before I put in the keel. That made
> > rolling the boat onto the side much easier. When I put in the keel I hung
> > the boat by cargo straps and put the keel in with a floor jack and glassed
> > the keel while it was hanging.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > MylesJ
> >
>
I remember Joe Norton (name? Michigan builder I
think) teaching boatbuilding at WB School, showing my Constant Camber class how
to coat plywood before cutting parts out of it, a pretty good idea. Also Jim
Brown pointing out that if I sheathe my CC panels before the boat is assembled,
in the squeezing of the panels together at the stem I'm going to flatten the
curvature and craze the glass-to-plywood bond. So to David's post about the
Alaskan Skiff builder glassing panels prior to assembly, well, yes if the
curvature isn't going to be much and especially if it isn't going to put the
glass in compression. No good reason to do it on a Micro.
By the way, I've come to like taping seams after
the sheathing, and where using more than one layer of tape, putting on the
widest tape first, narrowest last. I then use a sharp block plane to cut the
high edges off the tapes, and a little board-sanding with 80 when hard, Usually
no grinding. If for cosmetic reasons we don't want to see the evidence of tape,
fairing after it is well coated if not filled, with straight epoxy. I feel that
fairing mixtures are compromised and should go on only after essential bonding
and coating is complete and even then they usually need recoating with straight
stuff.
I am talking too much and will
shut up.
From:dnjost
Sent:Monday, January 18, 2010 1:52 PMSubject:[bolger] Re:Fibreglassing question
Alaskan Skiff builder, Ren Tolman, glasses the panels prior to assembly. seems like a reasonable solution and one I wish I had tried, although the finish of my work skiff is pretty smooth. For what it's worth, I used thin, slow cure, epoxy so it sank into the weave and wood pretty well, then used the squeegee approach for the final two coats. minimal sanding was involved and it did not take too long.
doing the interior woodwork is a pain this time of year.
David Jost
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
>
> I did most of the glassing on Micro3 before I put in the keel. That made
> rolling the boat onto the side much easier. When I put in the keel I hung
> the boat by cargo straps and put the keel in with a floor jack and glassed
> the keel while it was hanging.
>
>
>
>
>
> MylesJ
>
According to the The Epoxy Book from System Three, there is no need to
fiberglass the topsides of plywood boats unless it is fir plywood.
Simply glass the joints and seal the plywood with 2 or 3 coats of their
epoxy.
If you have to glass the topsides, try to get some slant to the surface
and avoid doing it vertically. Then basically follow the instructions
here.
http://www.pygmyboats.com/The_Epoxy_Book.pdf
No fillers, no sanding.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
fiberglass the topsides of plywood boats unless it is fir plywood.
Simply glass the joints and seal the plywood with 2 or 3 coats of their
epoxy.
If you have to glass the topsides, try to get some slant to the surface
and avoid doing it vertically. Then basically follow the instructions
here.
http://www.pygmyboats.com/The_Epoxy_Book.pdf
No fillers, no sanding.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill"
<wetherillc@...> wrote:
>
> Col,
>
> Given the range of suggestions, and the scope of the project, maybe it
> would be a good idea to do a couple of test/practice panels.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
Col,
Given the range of suggestions, and the scope of the project, maybe it
would be a good idea to do a couple of test/practice panels.
V/R
Chris
martha2001au wrote:
Given the range of suggestions, and the scope of the project, maybe it
would be a good idea to do a couple of test/practice panels.
V/R
Chris
martha2001au wrote:
> Hi guys,
> After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
> 1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
>
> 2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
>
> Cheers,
> Col
>
>
>
>
>
Alaskan Skiff builder, Ren Tolman, glasses the panels prior to assembly. seems like a reasonable solution and one I wish I had tried, although the finish of my work skiff is pretty smooth. For what it's worth, I used thin, slow cure, epoxy so it sank into the weave and wood pretty well, then used the squeegee approach for the final two coats. minimal sanding was involved and it did not take too long.
doing the interior woodwork is a pain this time of year.
David Jost
doing the interior woodwork is a pain this time of year.
David Jost
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
>
> I did most of the glassing on Micro3 before I put in the keel. That made
> rolling the boat onto the side much easier. When I put in the keel I hung
> the boat by cargo straps and put the keel in with a floor jack and glassed
> the keel while it was hanging.
>
>
>
>
>
> MylesJ
>
I concur with this sequence although I use milled glass instead of the microballoon. I attempt to get it smooth with the spackle knife. I also try to avoid any sanding that will get into the glass cloth.
Gene T.
On 18 Jan, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:28 AM, mason smith <goodboat@frontierne t.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Bruce, I hesitate to question you but am still dubious about any thickener in epoxy intended to penetrate wood and wet out cloth.
Neither am I willing to question your technique and success. There
are probably as many ways to do this as their are boatbuilders, and I
certainly respect you as a top notch boatbuilder!
FWIW, my suggestion is to *not* use thickener for the first epoxy I
apply to penetrate the wood to saturation, and adhere the cloth to the
wood, but rather I have had success using the silicate 'no sag'
additive, with the microballoon 'sanding agent' for the filling of the
cloth weave.
I did most of the glassing on Micro3 before I put in the keel. That made rolling the boat onto the side much easier. When I put in the keel I hung the boat by cargo straps and put the keel in with a floor jack and glassed the keel while it was hanging.
MylesJ
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:28 AM, mason smith <goodboat@...> wrote:
are probably as many ways to do this as their are boatbuilders, and I
certainly respect you as a top notch boatbuilder!
FWIW, my suggestion is to *not* use thickener for the first epoxy I
apply to penetrate the wood to saturation, and adhere the cloth to the
wood, but rather I have had success using the silicate 'no sag'
additive, with the microballoon 'sanding agent' for the filling of the
cloth weave.
>Neither am I willing to question your technique and success. There
>
>
> Bruce, I hesitate to question you but am still dubious about any thickener in epoxy intended to penetrate wood and wet out cloth.
are probably as many ways to do this as their are boatbuilders, and I
certainly respect you as a top notch boatbuilder!
FWIW, my suggestion is to *not* use thickener for the first epoxy I
apply to penetrate the wood to saturation, and adhere the cloth to the
wood, but rather I have had success using the silicate 'no sag'
additive, with the microballoon 'sanding agent' for the filling of the
cloth weave.
Sanding glass is one of the big yuck factors of boatbuilding and over the years I've found the fix is not better sanding materials or methods but to simply do a neater job of the application of glass/epoxy. Less is more is the best mantra.
Of course it might mean you take a little longer filing the weave of the glass putting on several thin coats rather than big ones and use less epoxy per batch but at the end of the project you are way ahead of the game.
On the other hand vacum bagging now is so accessible and easy that if you do it right there is no sanding at all...
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Of course it might mean you take a little longer filing the weave of the glass putting on several thin coats rather than big ones and use less epoxy per batch but at the end of the project you are way ahead of the game.
On the other hand vacum bagging now is so accessible and easy that if you do it right there is no sanding at all...
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
>
> > Finally, smooth the....
>
> Ah, sanding. That is the single biggest challenge about fiberglass
> work (in my experience) which caused early frustration. Getting
> around that challenge involved getting tooled up correctly. Starting
> with good angle grinder, then a good belt sander and ending with a
> good and high powered random orbital. Use high quality sand papers,
> and change the paper often. Trying to make do with inadequate sanding
> tools can lead to some big frustration and wasted time.
>
> Also, don't skip the steps of using spot filler, primer paint, primer
> sanding...that is if you want a smooth finish.
>
Bruce, I hesitate to question you but am still
dubious about any thickener in epoxy intended to penetrate wood and wet out
cloth. The manufacturers over the years have been giving us lower-viscosity
epoxies for these purposes, and I've appreciated it. If we don't want cloth to
float, and do want it completely saturated, I can't see adding thickeners to the
goop, and there will be no runs if we squeegee the cloth firmly to the plywood,
always ensuring that both cloth and wood get what they need to drink. Here's a
relevant anecdote. I make vacuum-laminated Constant Camber hull panels, no? My
mold presents is parabolic in cross section, presenting two slopes (side and
bottom of the hull panel), and a round bilge curve between them, minimum of 10"
radius. I uised to mix quite a lot of wood flour into the glue between layers of
cedar veneer, to keep it from running off the last layer while I was stapling on
the new one. Last two boats, at Jim Brown's suggestion, I skipped the thickener.
To my surprise, I gotlessornorun-off, even with plenty of
glue; and ended by making lighter, cheaper, smoother, better panels. I trace my
half-hull template on each panel, then sheathe with 4 or 6 oz while they are on
the mold, by the method I described earlier. So I repeat my suggestions: no
thickener, excess glue thoroughly squeegeed out of cloth, thin succeeding coat
or coats, almost no sanding, then no primer, just paint. If you musts use a
primer, use a two part one over epoxy. I have been around the course on this.
You won't necessarily have a failure if you don't follow this last rule, but a
failure is not unlikely enough to suit me.
----- Original Message -----From:Bruce HallmanSent:Monday, January 18, 2010 10:41 AMSubject:Re: [bolger] Re: Fibreglassing questionOn Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:10 AM, William <kingw@bgnet. bgsu.edu> wrote:
> Finally, smooth the....
Ah, sanding. That is the single biggest challenge about fiberglass
work (in my experience) which caused early frustration. Getting
around that challenge involved getting tooled up correctly. Starting
with good angle grinder, then a good belt sander and ending with a
good and high powered random orbital. Use high quality sand papers,
and change the paper often. Trying to make do with inadequate sanding
tools can lead to some big frustration and wasted time.
Also, don't skip the steps of using spot filler, primer paint, primer
sanding...that is if you want a smooth finish.
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:10 AM, William <kingw@...> wrote:
work (in my experience) which caused early frustration. Getting
around that challenge involved getting tooled up correctly. Starting
with good angle grinder, then a good belt sander and ending with a
good and high powered random orbital. Use high quality sand papers,
and change the paper often. Trying to make do with inadequate sanding
tools can lead to some big frustration and wasted time.
Also, don't skip the steps of using spot filler, primer paint, primer
sanding...that is if you want a smooth finish.
> Finally, smooth the....Ah, sanding. That is the single biggest challenge about fiberglass
work (in my experience) which caused early frustration. Getting
around that challenge involved getting tooled up correctly. Starting
with good angle grinder, then a good belt sander and ending with a
good and high powered random orbital. Use high quality sand papers,
and change the paper often. Trying to make do with inadequate sanding
tools can lead to some big frustration and wasted time.
Also, don't skip the steps of using spot filler, primer paint, primer
sanding...that is if you want a smooth finish.
Col,
Welcome back to the building process. It's good to hear from you again. The advice thus far has been excellent, I can only highlight or add the following: I prefer rolling the hull and working flat. As mentioned, this will also make installing the interior much easier (although your hamstrings will be tight as bowstrings when you're done!). If you fiberglass vertical surfaces, take Bruce's advice and add something to prevent runs. The 6 ounce fiberglass should be fine unless you beach your boat a lot. My LM has one layer of 6 oz., and is doing fine. Finally, smooth the long (i.e., side) edges along your fiberglass tape, before you cover them with cloth. Once the tape is set and the epoxy hard, you should sand the edges to ensure there are no high or un-smooth spots along the edge of the tape. You want a smooth transition. I failed to do this on my Gypsy, and after a few years the fiberglass cloth cracked along the edges of the underlying fiberglass tape. I went through extensive machinations to ensure my fiberglass tape lay smooth on my LM.
Enjoy building!
Bill, in Texas
Long Micro Pugnacious
Welcome back to the building process. It's good to hear from you again. The advice thus far has been excellent, I can only highlight or add the following: I prefer rolling the hull and working flat. As mentioned, this will also make installing the interior much easier (although your hamstrings will be tight as bowstrings when you're done!). If you fiberglass vertical surfaces, take Bruce's advice and add something to prevent runs. The 6 ounce fiberglass should be fine unless you beach your boat a lot. My LM has one layer of 6 oz., and is doing fine. Finally, smooth the long (i.e., side) edges along your fiberglass tape, before you cover them with cloth. Once the tape is set and the epoxy hard, you should sand the edges to ensure there are no high or un-smooth spots along the edge of the tape. You want a smooth transition. I failed to do this on my Gypsy, and after a few years the fiberglass cloth cracked along the edges of the underlying fiberglass tape. I went through extensive machinations to ensure my fiberglass tape lay smooth on my LM.
Enjoy building!
Bill, in Texas
Long Micro Pugnacious
>>>snip
Yes it will be fascinating seeing what fitting out I can do with the boat on its side, have to get my head around that one. The rear half of the side panels feels a little floppy (bulkheads in place, nothing else), but once its glassed and if I drop it onto a mattress and chock it properly it should be fine. I too can imagine getting sick of climbing in and out!
Col
Col
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> I do like what Rick said about turning the boat on its side for interior work and access. I had mine on its side for the application of the keel (another story). One observation about rolling square boats though. You're lifting a large percentage of their weight when first you try to tilt them. And they come down hard too. Even the little Tortoise can surprise a fellow when it falls from its opposite chine flat on the ground and your toes. Square boats do not roll. They hit flat, and hard. This may not apply if your boat has its keel.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rick Bedard
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Fibreglassing question
>
>
>
> Col,
>
> Lots of tips and advice on how to glass a vertical surface so far and more to come I'd bet, however it really is much easier to glass a horizontal area, plus you get a much nicer finish when working "down hand". As you mentioned tipping the hull is a bit of a chore, but not that difficult with blocking, levers, jacks etc. Even easier with the right helpers... I've forgotten how far along your construction is, but if you still have interior work to do, much of that can go easier with the hull on it's side. Working with everything sideways take a little getting used to, but I'd do it anyday compared to climbing up over and down into the hull and back however many thousand times it takes to finish the interior...
>
> Glad to hear you're back at it.
> Rick
>
> --- On Sun, 1/17/10, martha2001au <colmooney@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: martha2001au <colmooney@...>
> Subject: [bolger] Fibreglassing question
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 6:08 AM
>
>
> Hi guys,
> After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
> 1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
>
> 2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
>
> Cheers,
> Col
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
Thanks all for your responses, some great advice. Thanks Mason for your "how to" reply, very clearly put. I think my plan will be the following:
Tape butt joins,(bottom and sides); tape chines, glass the bottom up to the chine, glass the sides overlapping the chine tape on the bottom. Fill and fair. Might leave the paint until the boat is finished as it will no doubt get knocked around over the next 12 months. I am working alone and its good that this process can be done in two halves, as the keel batten divides the boat.
Thanks to all again,
Col
Tape butt joins,(bottom and sides); tape chines, glass the bottom up to the chine, glass the sides overlapping the chine tape on the bottom. Fill and fair. Might leave the paint until the boat is finished as it will no doubt get knocked around over the next 12 months. I am working alone and its good that this process can be done in two halves, as the keel batten divides the boat.
Thanks to all again,
Col
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> My advice on sheathing the Micro's sides is as follows (since I don't quite understand some of the advice you've been given): Don't pre-coat. Or if you do, give the plywood a scrape-coat only (apply, let penetrate a bit, scrape off excess), let it cure and sand it lightly, so that the glass won't catch on it. Then tape the dry cloth in place, up over the top edge, perhaps under the chine as well, and smooth it out. Then brush or roll low viscosity slow epoxy on it, top edge first, gradually down to bottom, squeegeeing fairly quickly, mostly downward. I like high-density foam rollers best, lightly filled, rolled out a bit on the tray. There should be no running at all. It can be a very neat job. Where there seems to be too little epoxy brush or roll on more. Give it time to saturate the wood, but, that done, squeegee all that you can get out, and put it on elsewhere or scrape it off in a can, to use elsewhere. Do not on any account give the cloth more than this minimum necessary amount of epoxy until at least partially cured. I think it is just as well to let it cure without another coat. Roll on a filler coat the next session, but not with any additives, and not enough to sag. If you like, a third coat, as these coats should be very thin. Then I'd use a cabinet scraper, well sharpened, to nick off any little specks, a light random-orbital sanding (120, perhaps) and at least three coats of single-part or two-part polyurethane paint. No primer. No fairing compound. Almost no sanding. Vertical straight sides are not hard. Horizontal undersides are, and so are inside compound curves.
> I concur that the bottom needs 10 oz and would benefit from a tougher kind of cloth. Also, with Bruce, I think you should tape the outside of the butt join with an extra layer. Mason
>
> ----- Original Message ----- Then
> From: Rick Bedard
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Su lightly, so thanday, January 17, 2010 9:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Fibreglassing question
>
>
>
> Col,
>
> Lots of tips and advice on how to glass a vertical surface so far and more to come I'd bet, however it really is much easier to glass a horizontal area, plus you get a much nicer finish when working "down hand". As you mentioned tipping the hull is a bit of a chore, but not that difficult with blocking, levers, jacks etc. Even easier with the right helpers... I've forgotten how far along your construction is, but if you still have interior work to do, much of that can go easier with the hull on it's side. Working with everything sideways take a little getting used to, but I'd do it anyday compared to climbing up over and down into the hull and back however many thousand times it takes to finish the interior...
>
> Glad to hear you're back at it.
> Rick
>
> --- On Sun, 1/17/10, martha2001au <colmooney@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: martha2001au <colmooney@...>
> Subject: [bolger] Fibreglassing question
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 6:08 AM
>
>
> Hi guys,
> After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
> 1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
>
> 2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
>
> Cheers,
> Col
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
Thanks Eric,
The Micro bottom is largely protected by the keel and the chines which will both be reinforced. I considered Dynel cloth which I used on my last boat but it soaks up a lot of epoxy.
Cheers
Col
The Micro bottom is largely protected by the keel and the chines which will both be reinforced. I considered Dynel cloth which I used on my last boat but it soaks up a lot of epoxy.
Cheers
Col
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "eric14850" <eric14850@...> wrote:
>
> Ditto the how to advice. I find the six inch auto body plastic squeegees very nice to work with. I prefer paint brush or pour and spread with squeegee to using foam roller.
>
> Six oz cloth is light for a bottom that might ground out. I expect my boat to ground out so I put vectra on the bottom as well as a couple of layers of 10 oz cloth. vectra has high abrasion resistance. Unlike glass cloth it swells with epoxi. Nor does it finish smooth like glass. If you use it be prepared.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "martha2001au" <colmooney@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> > After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
> > 1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
> >
> > 2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Col
> >
>
I do like what Rick said about turning the boat on
its side for interior work and access. I had mine on its side for the
application of the keel (another story). One observation about rolling square
boats though. You're lifting a large percentage of their weight when first you
try to tilt them. And they come down hard too. Even the little Tortoise can
surprise a fellow when it falls from its opposite chine flat on the ground and
your toes. Square boats do not roll. They hit flat, and hard. This may not apply if your boat has
its keel.
----- Original Message -----From:Rick BedardSent:Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:14 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] Fibreglassing question
Col,
Lots of tips and advice on how to glass a vertical surface so far and more to come I'd bet, however it really is much easier to glass a horizontal area, plus you get a much nicer finish when working "down hand". As you mentioned tipping the hull is a bit of a chore, but not that difficult with blocking, levers, jacks etc. Even easier with the right helpers... I've forgotten how far along your construction is, but if you still have interior work to do, much of that can go easier with the hull on it's side. Working with everything sideways take a little getting used to, but I'd do it anyday compared to climbing up over and down into the hull and back however many thousand times it takes to finish the interior...
Glad to hear you're back at it.
Rick
--- OnSun, 1/17/10, martha2001au<colmooney@gmail. com>wrote:
From: martha2001au <colmooney@gmail. com>
Subject: [bolger] Fibreglassing question
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 6:08 AMHi guys,
After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
Cheers,
Col
------------ --------- --------- ------
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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My advice on sheathing the Micro's sides is as
follows (since I don't quite understand some of the advice you've been given):
Don't pre-coat. Or if you do, give the plywood a scrape-coat only (apply, let
penetrate a bit, scrape off excess), let it cure and sand it lightly, so that
the glass won't catch on it. Then tape the dry cloth in place, up over the top
edge, perhaps under the chine as well, and smooth it out. Then brush or roll low
viscosity slow epoxy on it, top edge first, gradually down to bottom,
squeegeeing fairly quickly, mostly downward. I like high-density foam rollers
best, lightly filled, rolled out a bit on the tray. There should be no running
at all. It can be a very neat job. Where there seems to be too little epoxy
brush or roll on more. Give it time to saturate the wood, but, that done,
squeegee all that you can get out, and put it on elsewhere or scrape it off in a
can, to use elsewhere. Do not on any account give the cloth more than this
minimum necessary amount of epoxy until at least partially cured. I think it is
just as well to let it cure without another coat. Roll on a filler coat the next
session, but not with any additives, and not enough to sag. If you like, a third
coat, as these coats should be very thin. Then I'd use a cabinet scraper, well
sharpened, to nick off any little specks, a light random-orbital sanding (120,
perhaps) and at least three coats of single-part or two-part polyurethane
paint. No primer. No fairing compound. Almost no sanding. Vertical straight
sides are not hard. Horizontal undersides are, and so are inside compound
curves.
I concur that the bottom needs 10 oz and would
benefit from a tougher kind of cloth. Also, with Bruce, I think you should
tape the outside of the butt join with an extra layer.
Mason
----- Original Message ----- ThenFrom:Rick BedardSent:Su lightly, so thanday, January 17, 2010 9:14 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] Fibreglassing question
Col,
Lots of tips and advice on how to glass a vertical surface so far and more to come I'd bet, however it really is much easier to glass a horizontal area, plus you get a much nicer finish when working "down hand". As you mentioned tipping the hull is a bit of a chore, but not that difficult with blocking, levers, jacks etc. Even easier with the right helpers... I've forgotten how far along your construction is, but if you still have interior work to do, much of that can go easier with the hull on it's side. Working with everything sideways take a little getting used to, but I'd do it anyday compared to climbing up over and down into the hull and back however many thousand times it takes to finish the interior...
Glad to hear you're back at it.
Rick
--- OnSun, 1/17/10, martha2001au<colmooney@gmail. com>wrote:
From: martha2001au <colmooney@gmail. com>
Subject: [bolger] Fibreglassing question
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 6:08 AMHi guys,
After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
Cheers,
Col
------------ --------- --------- ------
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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| Col, Lots of tips and advice on how to glass a vertical surface so far and more to come I'd bet, however it really is much easier to glass a horizontal area, plus you get a much nicer finish when working "down hand". As you mentioned tipping the hull is a bit of a chore, but not that difficult with blocking, levers, jacks etc. Even easier with the right helpers... I've forgotten how far along your construction is, but if you still have interior work to do, much of that can go easier with the hull on it's side. Working with everything sideways take a little getting used to, but I'd do it anyday compared to climbing up over and down into the hull and back however many thousand times it takes to finish the interior... Glad to hear you're back at it. Rick --- OnSun, 1/17/10, martha2001au<colmooney@...>wrote:
|
Ditto the how to advice. I find the six inch auto body plastic squeegees very nice to work with. I prefer paint brush or pour and spread with squeegee to using foam roller.
Six oz cloth is light for a bottom that might ground out. I expect my boat to ground out so I put vectra on the bottom as well as a couple of layers of 10 oz cloth. vectra has high abrasion resistance. Unlike glass cloth it swells with epoxi. Nor does it finish smooth like glass. If you use it be prepared.
Eric
Six oz cloth is light for a bottom that might ground out. I expect my boat to ground out so I put vectra on the bottom as well as a couple of layers of 10 oz cloth. vectra has high abrasion resistance. Unlike glass cloth it swells with epoxi. Nor does it finish smooth like glass. If you use it be prepared.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "martha2001au" <colmooney@...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
> 1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
>
> 2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
>
> Cheers,
> Col
>
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Gene Tehansky
<goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
get adhered to the wood first, and then go back and fill weave. For
vertical faces it is important to also use anti-sag Colloidal Silicate
in the thickening mix.
<goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
> ...don't be concerned about filling the weave on the first pass.I ditto Gene's technique, it is a very good way to go to let the cloth
get adhered to the wood first, and then go back and fill weave. For
vertical faces it is important to also use anti-sag Colloidal Silicate
in the thickening mix.
Col,
Don't saturate the cloth on the sides, it will run. Make sure there are no bubbles under the cloth but don't be concerned about filling the weave on the first pass. After that has set up, still "green", you can then use a 12 inch drywall knife and apply a coat of thickened epoxy to fill the weave.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 17 Jan, 2010, at 9:08 AM, martha2001au wrote:
Hi guys,
After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
Cheers,
Col
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 6:08 AM, martha2001au <colmooney@...> wrote:
fun, or it should be at least.
1) If the backing block behind the midship butt joint is solidly glued
I suspect that fiberglass tape there is unnecessary. That said, I
think that most builders would put a strip of tape there anyway. It
could be cut from the 6 oz cloth if need be.
2) Applying epoxy to cloth is very much an art subject to variations
in personal practice. I must confess that, for me, it involved a lot
of trial and even more error to learn how to do it adequately. Others
will have different advice, but this is how I would approach it:
Using a 3" disposable paint brush I would spread on straight epoxy to
soak into the bare wood, expecting to use two or three quarts on a
side. Then I would drape the cloth on the wood, it should stick a
bit, but tacking and taping the top edge will be necessary to keep it
in place. Then working in about 10 ounce batches I would begin
filling the weave, using epoxy mixed with about 4 oz (by volume) of
Colloidal Silica (being careful not to breath that nasty dust) plus
about 6 oz (by volume) of microballoon filler. I would primarily be
using a 10" steel drywall taping knife to spread the mix on. The
silica will help control the sagging, and the microballoons will make
the sanding of the inevitable drips and sags easier.
>Good to hear you are determined to finish, and boatbuilding is usually
> Hi guys,
> After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
> 1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
>
> 2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
>
> Cheers,
> Col
fun, or it should be at least.
1) If the backing block behind the midship butt joint is solidly glued
I suspect that fiberglass tape there is unnecessary. That said, I
think that most builders would put a strip of tape there anyway. It
could be cut from the 6 oz cloth if need be.
2) Applying epoxy to cloth is very much an art subject to variations
in personal practice. I must confess that, for me, it involved a lot
of trial and even more error to learn how to do it adequately. Others
will have different advice, but this is how I would approach it:
Using a 3" disposable paint brush I would spread on straight epoxy to
soak into the bare wood, expecting to use two or three quarts on a
side. Then I would drape the cloth on the wood, it should stick a
bit, but tacking and taping the top edge will be necessary to keep it
in place. Then working in about 10 ounce batches I would begin
filling the weave, using epoxy mixed with about 4 oz (by volume) of
Colloidal Silica (being careful not to breath that nasty dust) plus
about 6 oz (by volume) of microballoon filler. I would primarily be
using a 10" steel drywall taping knife to spread the mix on. The
silica will help control the sagging, and the microballoons will make
the sanding of the inevitable drips and sags easier.
Hi guys,
After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
Cheers,
Col
After a years inactivity I'm back determined to finish my Micro this year. My wife had a stroke which put her in hospital for 6 months, I was getting established in a new job and boatbuilding was a low priority. Things are getting back to normal now, so a couple of questions if I may...
1. I'm coating the sides (and bottom) with 6oz glass and epoxy. The small butt join crack on the 9mm (3/8) sides has been filled, is there any need for fibreglass tape over the join or will the cloth be sufficient?
2. How much of a hassle is it wetting out the cloth on the verticle sides? The boat isn't too heavy to flip onto its side but I'd like to avoid the hassle if possible.
Cheers,
Col