Re: parker ohio sharpie flotation
I would imagine that if Bolger had designed a pelican hook and turnbuckle arrangement on the cabin, and felt it needed a lot of force, he would have mentioned the turnbuckles, as the part of the arrangement that could add real tension to the joint.
But my idea is that the toggle latches
(http://images.google.fr/images?q=toggle+fastener&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=UkKES4GOHsXl4gao-biGAg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCgQsAQwAw)
do put quite a bit of force, but not over as wide a range as a c-clamp, for instance. But if you think of a lot of o-rings or a dripless prop shaft seal, or a relatively soft plastic like a Sikaflex caulking, the pressure is very much secondary to the fit and that is what I am thinking of, a very tight and self-making custom fit.
Cheers, Brian
But my idea is that the toggle latches
(http://images.google.fr/images?q=toggle+fastener&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=UkKES4GOHsXl4gao-biGAg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCgQsAQwAw)
do put quite a bit of force, but not over as wide a range as a c-clamp, for instance. But if you think of a lot of o-rings or a dripless prop shaft seal, or a relatively soft plastic like a Sikaflex caulking, the pressure is very much secondary to the fit and that is what I am thinking of, a very tight and self-making custom fit.
Cheers, Brian
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...> wrote:
>
> This is a classic example of commenting before completely thinking
> through the subject. It occurs to me that I assumed without stating
> that the attainment of high force in the hold downs would be needed.
> Unless they are specially made, toggle latches, which I take to be over
> centering latches like on a tool box, do not put a lot of force on the
> juncture between cabin top and gunwale. I would want something with a
> lot of mechanical advantage, hence my preference for turnbuckles or clamps.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> On 2/23/2010 8:25 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
> >
> >
> > Perhaps he was thinking of turnbuckles with pelican hooks on one end
> > for quick actuation. I would look at the clamps used to hold down
> > pickup truck caps.
> >
> > V/R
> > Chris
> >
> > On 2/23/2010 5:36 AM, BrianA wrote:
> >> I am not sure why he suggested pelican hooks as opposed to toggle latches though -- possibly a more positive fixation, though the toggle switches I have can be locked or pinned in place. Maybe not too many stainless or brass toggle latches out there...
> >>
> > ,___
>
This is a classic example of commenting before completely thinking
through the subject. It occurs to me that I assumed without stating
that the attainment of high force in the hold downs would be needed.
Unless they are specially made, toggle latches, which I take to be over
centering latches like on a tool box, do not put a lot of force on the
juncture between cabin top and gunwale. I would want something with a
lot of mechanical advantage, hence my preference for turnbuckles or
clamps.
V/R
Chris
V/R
Chris
On 2/23/2010 8:25 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:Perhaps he was thinking of turnbuckles with pelican hooks on one end for quick actuation. I would look at the clamps used to hold down pickup truck caps.
V/R
Chris
On 2/23/2010 5:36 AM, BrianA wrote:,___I am not sure why he suggested pelican hooks as opposed to toggle latches though -- possibly a more positive fixation, though the toggle switches I have can be locked or pinned in place. Maybe not too many stainless or brass toggle latches out there...
V/R
Chris
On 2/23/2010 5:36 AM, BrianA wrote:I am not sure why he suggested pelican hooks as opposed to toggle latches though -- possibly a more positive fixation, though the toggle switches I have can be locked or pinned in place. Maybe not too many stainless or brass toggle latches out there...
That's reassuring that Bolger figured it could be done well enough to match the standard of a Micro Navigator. I am not sure why he suggested pelican hooks as opposed to toggle latches though -- possibly a more positive fixation, though the toggle switches I have can be locked or pinned in place. Maybe not too many stainless or brass toggle latches out there...
Cheers, brian
Cheers, brian
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Huft <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
>
> In that MAIB article on the Micro Navigator PB mentions that you could make the cabin removable and use pelican hooks to hold it down.
> John Boy
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Myles Swift <mswift@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 12:41:40 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: parker ohio sharpie flotation
>
>
>
> Brian says -"Right now the cabin is weather tight, but in the spring I am going to take the cabin top off, lay a good bead of Sikaflex around the lip on the bottom of the cabin where it rests on the coaming, let it skin over, and then set it in place on the boat with some saran wrap over the coaming to keep it from sticking. Same with the pop top edges, to form a kind of o-ring seal. I think with the toggle latches providing some pressure it should be water tight enough in case of a knockdown to give me a couple of minutes to get the boat back on her feet without swamping completely. "
>
> How about routing a groove in the up and down lips and gluing in some automotive or other tubing? The size used to connect from a windshield washer pump would be good. It has a small diameter and relatively thick walls. Thick walled surgical tubing might be a good fit as well.
>
Hi Miles
I thought of a bunch of different things to use, different kinds of weather stripping, bike innertubes, etc, but settled on the sikaflex because although I took some care to get a good mate between the sections, it isn't completely uniform and so the Sikaflex should be better able to fill any gaps. I also think that it will hang tough where another material might get pulled out of place or damaged in use.
Cheers, Brian
I thought of a bunch of different things to use, different kinds of weather stripping, bike innertubes, etc, but settled on the sikaflex because although I took some care to get a good mate between the sections, it isn't completely uniform and so the Sikaflex should be better able to fill any gaps. I also think that it will hang tough where another material might get pulled out of place or damaged in use.
Cheers, Brian
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Myles Swift <mswift@...> wrote:
>
>
> Brian says -"Right now the cabin is weather tight, but in the spring I am going to take the cabin top off, lay a good bead of Sikaflex around the lip on the bottom of the cabin where it rests on the coaming, let it skin over, and then set it in place on the boat with some saran wrap over the coaming to keep it from sticking. Same with the pop top edges, to form a kind of o-ring seal. I think with the toggle latches providing some pressure it should be water tight enough in case of a knockdown to give me a couple of minutes to get the boat back on her feet without swamping completely. "
>
> How about routing a groove in the up and down lips and gluing in some automotive or other tubing? The size used to connect from a windshield washer pump would be good. It has a small diameter and relatively thick walls. Thick walled surgical tubing might be a good fit as well.
>
In that MAIB article on the Micro Navigator PB mentions that you could make the cabin removable and use pelican hooks to hold it down.
John Boy
From:Myles Swift <mswift@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Mon, February 22, 2010 12:41:40 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: parker ohio sharpie flotation
John Boy
From:Myles Swift <mswift@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Mon, February 22, 2010 12:41:40 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: parker ohio sharpie flotation
Brian says -"Right now the cabin is weather tight, but in the spring I am going to take the cabin top off, lay a good bead of Sikaflex around the lip on the bottom of the cabin where it rests on the coaming, let it skin over, and then set it in place on the boat with some saran wrap over the coaming to keep it from sticking. Same with the pop top edges, to form a kind of o-ring seal. I think with the toggle latches providing some pressure it should be water tight enough in case of a knockdown to give me a couple of minutes to get the boat back on her feet without swamping completely. "
How about routing a groove in the up and down lips and gluing in some automotive or other tubing? The size used to connect from a windshield washer pump would be good. It has a small diameter and relatively thick walls. Thick walled surgical tubing might be a good fit as well.
Brian says -"Right now the cabin is weather tight, but in the spring I am going to take the cabin top off, lay a good bead of Sikaflex around the lip on the bottom of the cabin where it rests on the coaming, let it skin over, and then set it in place on the boat with some saran wrap over the coaming to keep it from sticking. Same with the pop top edges, to form a kind of o-ring seal. I think with the toggle latches providing some pressure it should be water tight enough in case of a knockdown to give me a couple of minutes to get the boat back on her feet without swamping completely. "
How about routing a groove in the up and down lips and gluing in some automotive or other tubing? The size used to connect from a windshield washer pump would be good. It has a small diameter and relatively thick walls. Thick walled surgical tubing might be a good fit as well.
How about routing a groove in the up and down lips and gluing in some automotive or other tubing? The size used to connect from a windshield washer pump would be good. It has a small diameter and relatively thick walls. Thick walled surgical tubing might be a good fit as well.
George, I think I would lean toward either skinning over the frames or boxing under the side decks like you mentioned but not trying to seal it. Just taking some closed cell foam, glue some strips of 1/4" ply or lath on the backs to keep it off the hull and let air circulate and then box it in place with some 1/8" or 1/4" ply or even some very light spruce tongue and groove wainscotting. That way you would have reliable floation, could check on it every year, and if any of the foam started to take on water or degrade, you could just replace it.
As for the cabin, I did something very similar to what John Boy was talking about. See the photos at Brian's Osprey. The cabin fits over a lip or coaming around the edges, and will held in place by toggle fasteners/latches. Same with the pop top in the back two thirds of the cabin.
Right now the cabin is weather tight, but in the spring I am going to take the cabin top off, lay a good bead of Sikaflex around the lip on the bottom of the cabin where it rests on the coaming, let it skin over, and then set it in place on the boat with some saran wrap over the coaming to keep it from sticking. Same with the pop top edges, to form a kind of o-ring seal. I think with the toggle latches providing some pressure it should be water tight enough in case of a knockdown to give me a couple of minutes to get the boat back on her feet without swamping completely.
Also going to build cockpit benches with foam floatation underneath and box in from the transom up to the first frame to provide some storage and floatation at the stern.
Cheers, Brian
John Boy wrote "Harry Sucher in either his flat bottom or vee bottom book a sketches of a cabin trunk with a hinged ceiling. The bow edge is hinged and he shows canvas to close the other three sides. Kind of like the top to a VW camper. Chapelle talks about some boats having trunks that could be unshipped, like the Gulf Coast scow schooner. Why not build your cabin trunk to do both? You can have the top pop up at anchor and unship it when you're planning on a crowd.
As for the cabin, I did something very similar to what John Boy was talking about. See the photos at Brian's Osprey. The cabin fits over a lip or coaming around the edges, and will held in place by toggle fasteners/latches. Same with the pop top in the back two thirds of the cabin.
Right now the cabin is weather tight, but in the spring I am going to take the cabin top off, lay a good bead of Sikaflex around the lip on the bottom of the cabin where it rests on the coaming, let it skin over, and then set it in place on the boat with some saran wrap over the coaming to keep it from sticking. Same with the pop top edges, to form a kind of o-ring seal. I think with the toggle latches providing some pressure it should be water tight enough in case of a knockdown to give me a couple of minutes to get the boat back on her feet without swamping completely.
Also going to build cockpit benches with foam floatation underneath and box in from the transom up to the first frame to provide some storage and floatation at the stern.
Cheers, Brian
John Boy wrote "Harry Sucher in either his flat bottom or vee bottom book a sketches of a cabin trunk with a hinged ceiling. The bow edge is hinged and he shows canvas to close the other three sides. Kind of like the top to a VW camper. Chapelle talks about some boats having trunks that could be unshipped, like the Gulf Coast scow schooner. Why not build your cabin trunk to do both? You can have the top pop up at anchor and unship it when you're planning on a crowd.
>
>
>
>
>
> so i am working on my Ohio sharpie. The trunk is out and i keep looking at the space thinking what a shame to divide it with a center board. would a Jim Michalac's lee board work? Would i want one port and starbord. Do you think it is as efficient as a centerboard.
>
> I keep flip flopping on the flotation issue. Open boat vs enclosed space. She is big enough for a cabin but the head clearance would be 36 inches, not so inviting. I cut out a bulkhead at the second frame from the bow giving me 900 pounds of flotation if installed but will result in a 33 inch reach to get a 22 foot mast in the mast step.
>
> I have also considered skinning the inside over the frames. If i do this the length of the boat it would give me 955 pounds of flotation. I have the bottom of each frame notched so all the spaces would be connected (bad if holed) so one drain hole would work for the whole thing and perhaps a deck plate either each or every ? chamber for ventilation and inspection.
>
> I could box in the side of the boat at the lower carlin (the one the seats rest on) leaving the bottom open. This would reduce the side flotation to 488 pounds for the total length or 350 if the transom and bow are boxed in.
>
> I have cut out a bulkhead for the transom which if installed would give me 680 pounds of flotation. Hatch on top for access. nice to have dry storage space but having your back to a transom with your arm resting on the tiller and deck is a picture hard to beat. I have never taken a wave in sweet pea, she always rose over the wave. It would seem that the sharpie will have more reserve (transom vs double ender)buoyancy. I guess it would be a breaking wave against the transom were she would be more of a problem and maybe coming up on a beach.
>
> I had to go to Michigan Thursday and bought some hydrotech marine ply for $40 per 1/4 nch sheet. It has no voids or footballs either face and is as dark as walnut. I got 4 sheet and am thinking of doing the decks with it. It will be hot to sit on but she will be a looker.
>http://www.theworkbench.com/ pdf/plywood. pdf
>
> I have 2# 2 part foam to fill any spaces for flotation but think it might be better to leave them open for ventilation.
>
> I would appreciate any thoughts.
>
| OK you asked for thoughts, so here's mine; I think one singleMichalakleeboard will work wonderfully, and probably would have been installed on sharpies a hundred years ago if they had known about them. My experience is from building and sailing a Michalak Jewelbox Jr, and a dozen years ago an undecked sharpie with a centerboard that I grew to hate (the centerboard, not the sharpie). You could always later take the leeboard off and install a centeboard and trunk. But I betcha you won't. I think you need 39" for comfortable sitting headroom. Tape together some cardboard to mock it up and see what you think... The flotation???? I guess it depends on what kind of waters you'll be sailing and what you want to float. Won't the boat as built float itself (awash of course, but it won't sink). So you're going to have to decide how much additional floation you feel you need. I'd vote against pour inplace foam. I'd much rather have blocks of foam contained in a way that they can be removable and be able to see all the hull surfaces. I sailed that 22' undecked, centerboard sharpie for a half dozen winter beach-camping sailing trips in the Sea of Cortez and never felt threatened from waves from beaching in protected coves, but always turned the hull around to bow out once in ankle deep water. As to breaking waves out in the open water? Where, and in what conditions are you sailing? We typically lashed everything into the boat, buoyant stuff to help flotation if we ever did have a problem and the heavy stuff lashed to prevent it's loss if the boat did go over. (Never did). I've used a bunch of meranti hydrotec. Good stuff. Has a tendency to be a bit splinterly along cuts, and the grain is a bit too open to varnish although after primer and a light sand it takes a nice painted finish.. As the saying goes; your boat, your money, your decision. Are there pictures posted anywhere? Good luck, Rick --- OnSat, 2/6/10, gbroadlick<GBroadlick@...>wrote: |
George,
Any flotation that you can put in is a good thing. If you are not worried about preserving the traditional appearance of the sharpie, then skinning over the frames to enclose side tanks is a pretty good option. I considered this for my Windward Skiff, but didn't do it. If you look at the Windmill Dinghy Class construction photos, there are some good examples of enclosed side tanks. Some of the frame bays are left with small openings (cave lockers) to stow things like binocs or gps etc. The frame tops double as deck beams. The side tanks are not filled with foam.
http://windmillclass.org/photos/?gallery=24
Any flotation that you can put in is a good thing. If you are not worried about preserving the traditional appearance of the sharpie, then skinning over the frames to enclose side tanks is a pretty good option. I considered this for my Windward Skiff, but didn't do it. If you look at the Windmill Dinghy Class construction photos, there are some good examples of enclosed side tanks. Some of the frame bays are left with small openings (cave lockers) to stow things like binocs or gps etc. The frame tops double as deck beams. The side tanks are not filled with foam.
http://windmillclass.org/photos/?gallery=24
I have one question for you. Do you want a nice lazy boat or do you care about planing? Less windage and less weight gets you planing on less wind. I don’t have any stats on the Ohio Sharpie but here is an example. O’Day says the Day Sailer needs 2.5 more knots of wind to plane the version with the small cuddy. Just an idea to include in your thinking.
MylesJ
Is it the 19 x 5'8" model? I'd think putting two of Michalak's lee boards on would be overkill. Jim's lee board is captive and is meant to be more like an off-center center board, waaay off-center. ;-) It does change the dynamics of the hull though. Somethings, according to Jim, to keep in mind are the board should center on the CLR, and the COE should be toward the aft of the board. Also, it needs to be parallel with the centerline of the boat. His boards are laminated and faired out of 1/2 ply. I guess a 1" board would do it. Search his essays atwww.jimsboats.com. His current essay covers flotation, how 'bout dat?
Harry Sucher in either his flat bottom or vee bottom book a sketches of a cabin trunk with a hinged ceiling. The bow edge is hinged and he shows canvas to close the other three sides. Kind of like the top to a VW camper. Chapelle talks about some boats having trunks that could be unshipped, like the Gulf Coast scow schooner. Why not build your cabin trunk to do both? You can have the top pop up at anchor and unship it when you're planning on a crowd.
I say DO IT! What's the worst that could happen? If it turns out to be a mistake, than you can tear it out next winter. If it works for, than you're the man.
John Boy
Harry Sucher in either his flat bottom or vee bottom book a sketches of a cabin trunk with a hinged ceiling. The bow edge is hinged and he shows canvas to close the other three sides. Kind of like the top to a VW camper. Chapelle talks about some boats having trunks that could be unshipped, like the Gulf Coast scow schooner. Why not build your cabin trunk to do both? You can have the top pop up at anchor and unship it when you're planning on a crowd.
I say DO IT! What's the worst that could happen? If it turns out to be a mistake, than you can tear it out next winter. If it works for, than you're the man.
John Boy
From:gbroadlick <GBroadlick@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Sat, February 6, 2010 5:21:46 PM
Subject:[bolger] parker ohio sharpie flotation
so i am working on my Ohio sharpie. The trunk is out and i keep looking at the space thinking what a shame to divide it with a center board. would a Jim Michalac's lee board work? Would i want one port and starbord. Do you think it is as efficient as a centerboard.
I keep flip flopping on the flotation issue. Open boat vs enclosed space. She is big enough for a cabin but the head clearance would be 36 inches, not so inviting. I cut out a bulkhead at the second frame from the bow giving me 900 pounds of flotation if installed but will result in a 33 inch reach to get a 22 foot mast in the mast step.
I have also considered skinning the inside over the frames. If i do this the length of the boat it would give me 955 pounds of flotation. I have the bottom of each frame notched so all the spaces would be connected (bad if holed) so one drain hole would work for the whole thing and perhaps a deck plate either each or every ? chamber for ventilation and inspection.
I could box in the side of the boat at the lower carlin (the one the seats rest on) leaving the bottom open. This would reduce the side flotation to 488 pounds for the total length or 350 if the transom and bow are boxed in.
I have cut out a bulkhead for the transom which if installed would give me 680 pounds of flotation. Hatch on top for access. nice to have dry storage space but having your back to a transom with your arm resting on the tiller and deck is a picture hard to beat. I have never taken a wave in sweet pea, she always rose over the wave. It would seem that the sharpie will have more reserve (transom vs double ender)buoyancy. I guess it would be a breaking wave against the transom were she would be more of a problem and maybe coming up on a beach.
I had to go to Michigan Thursday and bought some hydrotech marine ply for $40 per 1/4 nch sheet. It has no voids or footballs either face and is as dark as walnut. I got 4 sheet and am thinking of doing the decks with it. It will be hot to sit on but she will be a looker.
http://www.theworkb ench.com/ pdf/plywood. pdf
I have 2# 2 part foam to fill any spaces for flotation but think it might be better to leave them open for ventilation.
I would appreciate any thoughts.
so i am working on my Ohio sharpie. The trunk is out and i keep looking at the space thinking what a shame to divide it with a center board. would a Jim Michalac's lee board work? Would i want one port and starbord. Do you think it is as efficient as a centerboard.
I keep flip flopping on the flotation issue. Open boat vs enclosed space. She is big enough for a cabin but the head clearance would be 36 inches, not so inviting. I cut out a bulkhead at the second frame from the bow giving me 900 pounds of flotation if installed but will result in a 33 inch reach to get a 22 foot mast in the mast step.
I have also considered skinning the inside over the frames. If i do this the length of the boat it would give me 955 pounds of flotation. I have the bottom of each frame notched so all the spaces would be connected (bad if holed) so one drain hole would work for the whole thing and perhaps a deck plate either each or every ? chamber for ventilation and inspection.
I could box in the side of the boat at the lower carlin (the one the seats rest on) leaving the bottom open. This would reduce the side flotation to 488 pounds for the total length or 350 if the transom and bow are boxed in.
I have cut out a bulkhead for the transom which if installed would give me 680 pounds of flotation. Hatch on top for access. nice to have dry storage space but having your back to a transom with your arm resting on the tiller and deck is a picture hard to beat. I have never taken a wave in sweet pea, she always rose over the wave. It would seem that the sharpie will have more reserve (transom vs double ender)buoyancy. I guess it would be a breaking wave against the transom were she would be more of a problem and maybe coming up on a beach.
I had to go to Michigan Thursday and bought some hydrotech marine ply for $40 per 1/4 nch sheet. It has no voids or footballs either face and is as dark as walnut. I got 4 sheet and am thinking of doing the decks with it. It will be hot to sit on but she will be a looker.
http://www.theworkbench.com/pdf/plywood.pdf
I have 2# 2 part foam to fill any spaces for flotation but think it might be better to leave them open for ventilation.
I would appreciate any thoughts.
I keep flip flopping on the flotation issue. Open boat vs enclosed space. She is big enough for a cabin but the head clearance would be 36 inches, not so inviting. I cut out a bulkhead at the second frame from the bow giving me 900 pounds of flotation if installed but will result in a 33 inch reach to get a 22 foot mast in the mast step.
I have also considered skinning the inside over the frames. If i do this the length of the boat it would give me 955 pounds of flotation. I have the bottom of each frame notched so all the spaces would be connected (bad if holed) so one drain hole would work for the whole thing and perhaps a deck plate either each or every ? chamber for ventilation and inspection.
I could box in the side of the boat at the lower carlin (the one the seats rest on) leaving the bottom open. This would reduce the side flotation to 488 pounds for the total length or 350 if the transom and bow are boxed in.
I have cut out a bulkhead for the transom which if installed would give me 680 pounds of flotation. Hatch on top for access. nice to have dry storage space but having your back to a transom with your arm resting on the tiller and deck is a picture hard to beat. I have never taken a wave in sweet pea, she always rose over the wave. It would seem that the sharpie will have more reserve (transom vs double ender)buoyancy. I guess it would be a breaking wave against the transom were she would be more of a problem and maybe coming up on a beach.
I had to go to Michigan Thursday and bought some hydrotech marine ply for $40 per 1/4 nch sheet. It has no voids or footballs either face and is as dark as walnut. I got 4 sheet and am thinking of doing the decks with it. It will be hot to sit on but she will be a looker.
http://www.theworkbench.com/pdf/plywood.pdf
I have 2# 2 part foam to fill any spaces for flotation but think it might be better to leave them open for ventilation.
I would appreciate any thoughts.