Re: [bolger] second-hand but unused Bolger plans
Regarding the practice of pulling off a mold from an existing design:
I have a boat in my yard right now which was clearly 'splashed' from
another boat. My boat is a Starfish. The hull and rig are identical in
every way to a Sunfish. Only the deck is slightly different. I doubt
AMF / Alcort got paid for the rights to use the design.
I have a boat in my yard right now which was clearly 'splashed' from
another boat. My boat is a Starfish. The hull and rig are identical in
every way to a Sunfish. Only the deck is slightly different. I doubt
AMF / Alcort got paid for the rights to use the design.
On 2/11/10, jhess314 <j.hess@...> wrote:
> Is there any sort of market for purchased, but not used, Bolger plans?
>
> Is it appropriate to either offer to buy or offer to sell such plans on this
> forum?
>
> Does buying a second-hand, but unused, set of plans entitle the new owner to
> whatever assistance from PB&F that the original owner was entitled to?
>
> Is it appropriate to buy or sell USED plans, if the only intent of the new
> owner is to use them as study plans?
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
OOPS, sorry in the previous post I lost my message. From what I can understand from this, and also as suggested by some one else, the hull protection is mostly based for duplicating hull molds with the plug method. Concerning a wooden boat, my understanding is that a traditional boat is made with a large amount of parts that are common practice and trade standards and therefore not subject to protection. Only a hull with a new and innovative design may be protected. i.e. the first designer of a seabright tunnel hull. But also in this case, a slight modification such the reverse "V" or a rounded or squared tunnel raised a little bit will change the design and the protection is no longer applicable. Giuliano --- OnSat, 2/13/10, Giuliano Girometta<ggboat1@...>wrote:
|
This congressional testimony about vessel hull copyright is interesting. .. http://www.copyrigh t.gov/docs/ hr2696.html |
Crazy American laws. Next thing you know somebodies gonna copyright "ya'll" or "youns," depending on your geography, and everybody gonna have to pay thousands a year in royalties.
Anyway, I know what its like to be ripped off so I don't mind paying for plans. But if you can't get them from the designer? Well then, I guess you have to get them second hand.
John Boy
From:Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Fri, February 12, 2010 7:56:06 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: second-hand but unused Bolger plans
Anyway, I know what its like to be ripped off so I don't mind paying for plans. But if you can't get them from the designer? Well then, I guess you have to get them second hand.
John Boy
From:Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Fri, February 12, 2010 7:56:06 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: second-hand but unused Bolger plans
This is kind of strange and unclear. Talking about hull design, there are many variations in a hull design such frame size and frame spacing that can be altered. And considering a design, for instance, a bank dory or a St.P. dory is a very practical example. They all share the same hull design and they look all alike. The only minimal difference may be more or less rocker, the flaring angle and the profile of the stem. So what? All the designers and builder that build a dory will be in trouble if someone else registered the dory hull design? Or the hull design is including also all the construction details, offsets and scantling for that particular boat. What about if you design your own boat from scratch and try to imitate or you come close to someone else design? What about if you like a boat but is designed for stitch and glue and you want to convert it into plank on frames and you design the same hull shape with a different construction method? I will never cite a designer by duplicating his plans without paying the fee because I feel will be immoral and same as stealing what he or her are seling, that is the knowledge and time involved in the project. I got rip off twice by people asking me to come out with a structural/architec tural solution, asking me hundred of questions as how I will do the job, which size of materials, how to make some parts etc. And then after they know how, they went to the cheapmex contractor and tell them how they want the work to be done. Juist thinking how far the protection and copyright of a hull is going. Giuliano --- OnFri, 2/12/10, Bruce Hallman<hallman@gmail. com>wrote:
|
Back in the 60's to 80's when fiberglass boats (especially small fishing/ski boats) were selling like hotcakes, builders would go buy a boat, pull a plug on it overnight, and take it back to the dealer they bought it from the next day.....the rule is all you have to do is change a boat 40% to avoid copyright/design infringement. That doesn't take much - slightly different interior layout, different hatches, etc. I think everyone has an innate sense of what is fair and what's not.... you have to decide what you can live with.....if you want to be a smuck in life, then that's what you will do. If someone teased you when you were young about being chubby then you probably are going to get even with someone someday. Something to think about this spring while your shaving a gunnel or drifting along on
a broad reach. Personally, I like what Bill Gates had to say today about learning to use spent atomic fuel more than this issue.
From:Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Fri, February 12, 2010 6:56:06 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: second-hand but unused Bolger plans
From:Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Fri, February 12, 2010 6:56:06 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: second-hand but unused Bolger plans
This is kind of strange and unclear. Talking about hull design, there are many variations in a hull design such frame size and frame spacing that can be altered. And considering a design, for instance,
a bank dory or a St.P. dory is a very practical example. They all share the same hull design and they look all alike. The only minimal difference may be more or less rocker, the flaring angle and the profile of the stem. So what? All the designers and builder that build a dory will be in trouble if someone else registered the dory hull design? Or the hull design is including also all the construction details, offsets and scantling for that particular boat. What about if you design your own boat from scratch and try to imitate or you come close to someone else design? What about if you like a boat but is designed for stitch and glue and you want to convert it into plank on frames and you design the same hull shape with a different construction method? I will never cite a designer by duplicating his plans without paying the fee because I feel will be immoral and same as stealing what he or her are
seling, that is the knowledge and time involved in the project. I got rip off twice by people asking me to come out with a structural/architec tural solution, asking me hundred of questions as how I will do the job, which size of materials, how to make some parts etc. And then after they know how, they went to the cheapmex contractor and tell them how they want the work to be done. Juist thinking how far the protection and copyright of a hull is going. Giuliano --- OnFri, 2/12/10, Bruce Hallman<hallman@gmail. com>wrote:
|
This is kind of strange and unclear. Talking about hull design, there are many variations in a hull design such frame size and frame spacing that can be altered. And considering a design, for instance, a bank dory or a St.P. dory is a very practical example. They all share the same hull design and they look all alike. The only minimal difference may be more or less rocker, the flaring angle and the profile of the stem. So what? All the designers and builder that build a dory will be in trouble if someone else registered the dory hull design? Or the hull design is including also all the construction details, offsets and scantling for that particular boat. What about if you design your own boat from scratch and try to imitate or you come close to someone else design? What about if you like a boat but is designed for stitch and glue and you want to convert it into plank on frames and you design the same hull shape with a different construction method? I will never cite a designer by duplicating his plans without paying the fee because I feel will be immoral and same as stealing what he or her are seling, that is the knowledge and time involved in the project. I got rip off twice by people asking me to come out with a structural/architectural solution, asking me hundred of questions as how I will do the job, which size of materials, how to make some parts etc. And then after they know how, they went to the cheapmex contractor and tell them how they want the work to be done. Juist thinking how far the protection and copyright of a hull is going. Giuliano --- OnFri, 2/12/10, Bruce Hallman<hallman@...>wrote:
|
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
published material, (like a book) for a hundred years+. The 3D shape
of the boat, the 'vessel hull design' itself, has USA protection for
ten years at best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Copyright_term.svg
> That is pretty weird. I you design a boat. Your design may be protectedYeah, very ironic. Boat plans, being printed paper, are protected as
> for ten years is the way it sounds. If you write a description of it
> that writing is protected for 150 years and if you make a drawing of it,
> the drawing is protected for the same 150 years.
published material, (like a book) for a hundred years+. The 3D shape
of the boat, the 'vessel hull design' itself, has USA protection for
ten years at best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Copyright_term.svg
That is pretty weired. I you design a boat. Your design may be protected
for ten years is the way it sounds. If you write a description of it
that writing is protected for 150 years and if you make a drawing of it,
the drawing is protected for the same 150 years.
The same seems true that I I design a cam to engage a starter with the
engine flywheel it is protected for 20 years with a patent I I write a
software program to do the same thing it is protected under copyright
for 150. Maybe thats why there are so many computers in the new cars.
I did not know boats were patented I always thought they were copyrighted.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
for ten years is the way it sounds. If you write a description of it
that writing is protected for 150 years and if you make a drawing of it,
the drawing is protected for the same 150 years.
The same seems true that I I design a cam to engage a starter with the
engine flywheel it is protected for 20 years with a patent I I write a
software program to do the same thing it is protected under copyright
for 150. Maybe thats why there are so many computers in the new cars.
I did not know boats were patented I always thought they were copyrighted.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...
> <mailto:rocketgeek%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Not that simple
> > Hull form copyrights are by registration only, ... Neither
> > Phil nor Susanne appear...
>
> I had noticed PB&F don't appear to have registered any vessel hull
> designs. (As is the case it appears for the vast majority of boat
> designers who have chosen or neglected to avail themselves of the
> protections of vessel hull design registration.) As I read the
> copyright law, vessel hull designs which are *not* registered are
> *not* protected by copyright. Even those that are registered enjoy
> relatively weak of copyright protection in my opinion, it lasts only
> ten years for instance.
>
> I think the legal reasoning goes, that boat hulls are "utilitarian"
> and therefore the public interest is served by bringing boat hulls
> into the public domain quickly.
>
> This congressional testimony about vessel hull copyright is interesting...
>
>http://www.copyright.gov/docs/hr2696.html
> <http://www.copyright.gov/docs/hr2696.html>
>
>
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
designs. (As is the case it appears for the vast majority of boat
designers who have chosen or neglected to avail themselves of the
protections of vessel hull design registration.) As I read the
copyright law, vessel hull designs which are *not* registered are
*not* protected by copyright. Even those that are registered enjoy
relatively weak of copyright protection in my opinion, it lasts only
ten years for instance.
I think the legal reasoning goes, that boat hulls are "utilitarian"
and therefore the public interest is served by bringing boat hulls
into the public domain quickly.
This congressional testimony about vessel hull copyright is interesting...
http://www.copyright.gov/docs/hr2696.html
>I had noticed PB&F don't appear to have registered any vessel hull
>
>
> Not that simple
> Hull form copyrights are by registration only, ... Neither
> Phil nor Susanne appear...
designs. (As is the case it appears for the vast majority of boat
designers who have chosen or neglected to avail themselves of the
protections of vessel hull design registration.) As I read the
copyright law, vessel hull designs which are *not* registered are
*not* protected by copyright. Even those that are registered enjoy
relatively weak of copyright protection in my opinion, it lasts only
ten years for instance.
I think the legal reasoning goes, that boat hulls are "utilitarian"
and therefore the public interest is served by bringing boat hulls
into the public domain quickly.
This congressional testimony about vessel hull copyright is interesting...
http://www.copyright.gov/docs/hr2696.html
In MAIB at the end of each Bolger article about a completed design is
the famous statement:
Plans for "XXX" our design #XXX. are available for US$XXX to build one
boat, sent by priority mail, rolled in a tube etc, (Usually with details
of the number and size of plan sheets and order of difficulty. Then the
mailing address)
I have never seen this statement included in any of the plans themselves
though.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks"
<loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:
the famous statement:
Plans for "XXX" our design #XXX. are available for US$XXX to build one
boat, sent by priority mail, rolled in a tube etc, (Usually with details
of the number and size of plan sheets and order of difficulty. Then the
mailing address)
I have never seen this statement included in any of the plans themselves
though.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks"
<loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:
>
>
> 1001 reasons not to be building or sailing boats...
>
> Bob
>
>http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
>http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
>http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
>
Not that simple
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
>>
>> I encourage anyone with an opinion to first look at:
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
>
> We must not ignore that in the USA, the "copyright" ownership of
> 'vessel hull designs' is covered under an entirely different legal
> code than the copyright of paper items.
>
> "Vessels Hull Designs" are covered by U.S.C. Title 17, Chapter 13
>
>http://www.copyright.gov/vessels/
>
> Printed paper is covered under other U.S.C. Title 17 code chapters,
> 102, 107 etc...
>
> This creates an ironic situation where the copyright of the paper
> blueprint, book, etc., is actually more stringent than the copyright
> of the "vessel hull design".
>
> And, FWIW, I see nothing about "license to build one boat" in the law.
> Certainly tort law allows for a contractual agreement that could
> establish the license terms as part of a sales agreement, and that
> agreement certainly could bind the transferability of the "build one
> boat" restriction, or not!
Hull form copyrights are by registration only, and the list is
available athttp://www.copyright.gov/vessels/list/index.html.Neither
Phil nor Susanne appear on it, therefore discussions of hull form
copyrights are irrelevant. If you look at the names of the designers,
it's mostly production builders of clorox bottles and other maritime
horrors.
License term restrictions that violate the doctrine of first sale have
fared badly in US courts, with the exception of technological
restrictions protected by the DMCA.
-p
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
'vessel hull designs' is covered under an entirely different legal
code than the copyright of paper items.
"Vessels Hull Designs" are covered by U.S.C. Title 17, Chapter 13
http://www.copyright.gov/vessels/
Printed paper is covered under other U.S.C. Title 17 code chapters,
102, 107 etc...
This creates an ironic situation where the copyright of the paper
blueprint, book, etc., is actually more stringent than the copyright
of the "vessel hull design".
And, FWIW, I see nothing about "license to build one boat" in the law.
Certainly tort law allows for a contractual agreement that could
establish the license terms as part of a sales agreement, and that
agreement certainly could bind the transferability of the "build one
boat" restriction, or not!
>We must not ignore that in the USA, the "copyright" ownership of
> I encourage anyone with an opinion to first look at:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
'vessel hull designs' is covered under an entirely different legal
code than the copyright of paper items.
"Vessels Hull Designs" are covered by U.S.C. Title 17, Chapter 13
http://www.copyright.gov/vessels/
Printed paper is covered under other U.S.C. Title 17 code chapters,
102, 107 etc...
This creates an ironic situation where the copyright of the paper
blueprint, book, etc., is actually more stringent than the copyright
of the "vessel hull design".
And, FWIW, I see nothing about "license to build one boat" in the law.
Certainly tort law allows for a contractual agreement that could
establish the license terms as part of a sales agreement, and that
agreement certainly could bind the transferability of the "build one
boat" restriction, or not!
1001 reasons not to be building or sailing boats...
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
> Posted by: "Dan Burrill"dan@...teadaemonI encourage anyone with an opinion to first look at:
> Date: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:36 am ((PST))
>
> As far as I'm aware, within the EU it is perfectly legal to sell an
> unused set of plans, as any attempt to restrict resale would be
> considered an illegal restraint of trade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
which is very informative, and unless there is a specific exception in
the law not mentioned in this entry, pretty clearly indicates that you
can sell the right to build the boat along with the plans.
There may be an exception, but for that, consult a copyright attorney.
-Chris Crandall
Man, this is such a tedious topic. It's not complicated. Anybody who's familiar with boatbuilding tradition knows the drill. You pay once, you build one boat. Even if you're not familiar with boat building tradition, that's the answer. It's not complicated. It's been answered a hundred times or more on this forum.
How's this for an idea: if you can't get an answer from PB & Friends, then troll for somebody willing to sell you their old used plans for much less than the original's cost, then send at least the balance of the original cost in a check to PB & Friends. Boat building to plans has always been an honor system. This seems like a quasi-honorable way to proceed if you really can't find the exact plan through any other venue.
How's this for an idea: if you can't get an answer from PB & Friends, then troll for somebody willing to sell you their old used plans for much less than the original's cost, then send at least the balance of the original cost in a check to PB & Friends. Boat building to plans has always been an honor system. This seems like a quasi-honorable way to proceed if you really can't find the exact plan through any other venue.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Dan Burrill <dan@...> wrote:
>
> As far as I'm aware, within the EU it is perfectly legal to sell an
> unused set of plans, as any attempt to restrict resale would be
> considered an illegal restraint of trade.
>
> Dan Burrill
>
As far as I'm aware, within the EU it is perfectly legal to sell an
unused set of plans, as any attempt to restrict resale would be
considered an illegal restraint of trade.
Dan Burrill
unused set of plans, as any attempt to restrict resale would be
considered an illegal restraint of trade.
Dan Burrill
You can get 2005-2009 on CD from Duckworks.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/media/maibback/
John Boy
From:prairiedog2332 <arvent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thu, February 11, 2010 5:19:29 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: second-hand but unused Bolger plans
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/media/maibback/
John Boy
From:prairiedog2332 <arvent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thu, February 11, 2010 5:19:29 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: second-hand but unused Bolger plans
One of the "Problems" I perceive, regarding Bolger plans is that there
are not even "study plans" available, with the exception of the ones
that Dynamite Payson offers - the basic "Instant Boat" plans.
Payson offers an excellent service in that regard, as well as a great
response for the full plans.
I do know that MAIB have a lot of articles equivalent to study plans,
but what if one is not aware of that source?
I think that if these articles were transferred to a digital format and
indexed and offered on CD's would be of incredible resource.
I have several Bolger plans I will never build from. So would offering
them as "study plans" be an option? I have also traded plans with no
money transferred so another Bolgerista could see them. Would he be
"allowed" to build a model from them?
Also I know many people have built from the books offering plans. So
what is the deal with that? What if I bought the book 2nd hand?
I lost several of my Bolger books in a relocation and cannot replace
them unless I am prepared to spend several hundred for used copies. Not
even available in inter-library loan any longer.
I certainly share in the frustration many others seem to relate to.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@... > wrote:
>
> Discussion of buying and selling plans, copyrights, etc.. is very much
> a recurring topic here, it makes me wonder if we could benefit from
> creating a "Frequently Asked Questions" FAQ page?
>
> Except it so much fun to discuss this over and over again. <grin>
>
> It is worth mentioning that there is a companion Yahoo group
> Bolger4Sale, where occasionally people offer to sell unused Bolger
> boat plans.
>
If you use
http://www.bookfinder.com/
It searches all the major databases
and enter in Philip C Bolger you can usually find a couple of the out of
print ones in the $30 range. You can also save a search on ebay. The
hardest one is Different Boats but I have gotten multiple copies of all
of them over the years and $50 is the most I have paid.
HJ
prairiedog2332 wrote:
http://www.bookfinder.com/
It searches all the major databases
and enter in Philip C Bolger you can usually find a couple of the out of
print ones in the $30 range. You can also save a search on ebay. The
hardest one is Different Boats but I have gotten multiple copies of all
of them over the years and $50 is the most I have paid.
HJ
prairiedog2332 wrote:
> One of the "Problems" I perceive, regarding Bolger plans is that there
> are not even "study plans" available, with the exception of the ones
> that Dynamite Payson offers - the basic "Instant Boat" plans.
>
> Payson offers an excellent service in that regard, as well as a great
> response for the full plans.
>
> I do know that MAIB have a lot of articles equivalent to study plans,
> but what if one is not aware of that source?
>
> I think that if these articles were transferred to a digital format and
> indexed and offered on CD's would be of incredible resource.
>
> I have several Bolger plans I will never build from. So would offering
> them as "study plans" be an option? I have also traded plans with no
> money transferred so another Bolgerista could see them. Would he be
> "allowed" to build a model from them?
>
> Also I know many people have built from the books offering plans. So
> what is the deal with that? What if I bought the book 2nd hand?
>
> I lost several of my Bolger books in a relocation and cannot replace
> them unless I am prepared to spend several hundred for used copies. Not
> even available in inter-library loan any longer.
>
> I certainly share in the frustration many others seem to relate to.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
>> Discussion of buying and selling plans, copyrights, etc.. is very much
>> a recurring topic here, it makes me wonder if we could benefit from
>> creating a "Frequently Asked Questions" FAQ page?
>>
>> Except it so much fun to discuss this over and over again. <grin>
>>
>> It is worth mentioning that there is a companion Yahoo group
>> Bolger4Sale, where occasionally people offer to sell unused Bolger
>> boat plans.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
One of the "Problems" I perceive, regarding Bolger plans is that there
are not even "study plans" available, with the exception of the ones
that Dynamite Payson offers - the basic "Instant Boat" plans.
Payson offers an excellent service in that regard, as well as a great
response for the full plans.
I do know that MAIB have a lot of articles equivalent to study plans,
but what if one is not aware of that source?
I think that if these articles were transferred to a digital format and
indexed and offered on CD's would be of incredible resource.
I have several Bolger plans I will never build from. So would offering
them as "study plans" be an option? I have also traded plans with no
money transferred so another Bolgerista could see them. Would he be
"allowed" to build a model from them?
Also I know many people have built from the books offering plans. So
what is the deal with that? What if I bought the book 2nd hand?
I lost several of my Bolger books in a relocation and cannot replace
them unless I am prepared to spend several hundred for used copies. Not
even available in inter-library loan any longer.
I certainly share in the frustration many others seem to relate to.
Nels
are not even "study plans" available, with the exception of the ones
that Dynamite Payson offers - the basic "Instant Boat" plans.
Payson offers an excellent service in that regard, as well as a great
response for the full plans.
I do know that MAIB have a lot of articles equivalent to study plans,
but what if one is not aware of that source?
I think that if these articles were transferred to a digital format and
indexed and offered on CD's would be of incredible resource.
I have several Bolger plans I will never build from. So would offering
them as "study plans" be an option? I have also traded plans with no
money transferred so another Bolgerista could see them. Would he be
"allowed" to build a model from them?
Also I know many people have built from the books offering plans. So
what is the deal with that? What if I bought the book 2nd hand?
I lost several of my Bolger books in a relocation and cannot replace
them unless I am prepared to spend several hundred for used copies. Not
even available in inter-library loan any longer.
I certainly share in the frustration many others seem to relate to.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> Discussion of buying and selling plans, copyrights, etc.. is very much
> a recurring topic here, it makes me wonder if we could benefit from
> creating a "Frequently Asked Questions" FAQ page?
>
> Except it so much fun to discuss this over and over again. <grin>
>
> It is worth mentioning that there is a companion Yahoo group
> Bolger4Sale, where occasionally people offer to sell unused Bolger
> boat plans.
>
---Another point: If the budget is so tight that you cannot afford the plans, most likely one cannot afford the boat.
>
Selling books is not the same thing because the book is sold for the
buyer to read. A boat design is not about the selling of plans it's
about the right to build a boat. I am saying that the copyright pertains
to the boat and really the set of plans could be a seperate right. Then
copying and selling the plans without permission infriges on that
copyright. Selling the original plans is of course ok under fair use.
Building the boat may infringe on the boats copyright which may be a
separate thing.
In reality I might buy a second hand set of plans for a skiff if the
boat had not been built and build it. If I were going to build a $
100,000 boat I would definitively go to the designer and buy a set of
plans. For one thing If I were to want to sell the boat, I wouldn't want
to tell the buyer it was built with second hand drawings. That might
knock $25,000 off the value before I said the next word.
Doug
Pierce Nichols wrote:
buyer to read. A boat design is not about the selling of plans it's
about the right to build a boat. I am saying that the copyright pertains
to the boat and really the set of plans could be a seperate right. Then
copying and selling the plans without permission infriges on that
copyright. Selling the original plans is of course ok under fair use.
Building the boat may infringe on the boats copyright which may be a
separate thing.
In reality I might buy a second hand set of plans for a skiff if the
boat had not been built and build it. If I were going to build a $
100,000 boat I would definitively go to the designer and buy a set of
plans. For one thing If I were to want to sell the boat, I wouldn't want
to tell the buyer it was built with second hand drawings. That might
knock $25,000 off the value before I said the next word.
Doug
Pierce Nichols wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Douglas Pollard
> <dougpol1@...<mailto:dougpol1%40verizon.net>> wrote:
> > The copyright says All rights reserved. If the right to sell the plans
> > is not given to the buyer of the license it does not exist.
>
> That is incorrect, at least in the US, due to something called the
> doctrine of first sale. That's why book publishers aren't entitled to
> a cut of used book store revenues.
>
> -p
>
>
Discussion of buying and selling plans, copyrights, etc.. is very much
a recurring topic here, it makes me wonder if we could benefit from
creating a "Frequently Asked Questions" FAQ page?
Except it so much fun to discuss this over and over again. <grin>
It is worth mentioning that there is a companion Yahoo group
Bolger4Sale, where occasionally people offer to sell unused Bolger
boat plans.
a recurring topic here, it makes me wonder if we could benefit from
creating a "Frequently Asked Questions" FAQ page?
Except it so much fun to discuss this over and over again. <grin>
It is worth mentioning that there is a companion Yahoo group
Bolger4Sale, where occasionally people offer to sell unused Bolger
boat plans.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
doctrine of first sale. That's why book publishers aren't entitled to
a cut of used book store revenues.
-p
> The copyright says All rights reserved. If the right to sell the plansThat is incorrect, at least in the US, due to something called the
> is not given to the buyer of the license it does not exist.
doctrine of first sale. That's why book publishers aren't entitled to
a cut of used book store revenues.
-p
The copyright says All rights reserved. If the right to sell the plans
is not given to the buyer of the license it does not exist. But everyone
does it and if no one every takes anyone to court. I guess it must be OK.
In the case of free software you are given the right to copy it, sell
it, or give it away as long as you give the code as well. If the license
doesn't say so you are obligated keep it.
There is a reason that people buy a licence to sell copyrighted works.
This is just my opinion, I am no lawyer and If I had a set of unused
plans I would not hesitate to sell them. If the designer refused to help
them with some problem with the design that would be their problem. Doug
Harry James wrote:
is not given to the buyer of the license it does not exist. But everyone
does it and if no one every takes anyone to court. I guess it must be OK.
In the case of free software you are given the right to copy it, sell
it, or give it away as long as you give the code as well. If the license
doesn't say so you are obligated keep it.
There is a reason that people buy a licence to sell copyrighted works.
This is just my opinion, I am no lawyer and If I had a set of unused
plans I would not hesitate to sell them. If the designer refused to help
them with some problem with the design that would be their problem. Doug
Harry James wrote:
>
> If they have not been used to build a boat then they can be sold.
>
> HJ
>
> Joe H wrote:
> > Since usually the designer makes his living from designing and
> selling plans, my opinion would be that it's inappropriate to purchase
> used plans. Joe
> > ---
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo!
> Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
If they have not been used to build a boat then they can be sold.
HJ
Joe H wrote:
HJ
Joe H wrote:
> Since usually the designer makes his living from designing and selling plans, my opinion would be that it's inappropriate to purchase used plans. Joe
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Seems to me that the buyer did not buy the design but bought a license
instead. What you can or cannot do should be covered in the license if
It isn't I would think you can do what you like with the plans and if
the licence doesn't say how many boats you can build under the licence
you can build as many as you want. Since it's a license you are buying
the question seems to me can you transfer the license to a potential
buyer. The plans are only part of what you are buying for the most part
and maybe all you are buying is a license. Seems that if the plans are
what you are buying you can do anything you want with them as they
belong to you. Likely this is why they don't sell you the plans but
instead sell you the license.
Doug
John Bell wrote:
instead. What you can or cannot do should be covered in the license if
It isn't I would think you can do what you like with the plans and if
the licence doesn't say how many boats you can build under the licence
you can build as many as you want. Since it's a license you are buying
the question seems to me can you transfer the license to a potential
buyer. The plans are only part of what you are buying for the most part
and maybe all you are buying is a license. Seems that if the plans are
what you are buying you can do anything you want with them as they
belong to you. Likely this is why they don't sell you the plans but
instead sell you the license.
Doug
John Bell wrote:
>
>
> I've sold unused plans before. The plans grant a license to build one
> boat If a boat hasn't been built I don't see the problem *unless* the
> builder says the license isn't transferable. I dont recall PB&F's
> terms and conditions, but I don't think they've established that
> limitation.
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Joe H <seacoast44@...
> <mailto:seacoast44@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Since usually the designer makes his living from designing and
> selling plans, my opinion would be that it's inappropriate to
> purchase used plans. Joe
> ---
> >
>
>
>
I've sold unused plans before. The plans grant a license to build one boat If a boat hasn't been built I don't see the problem *unless* the builder says the license isn't transferable. I dont recall PB&F's terms and conditions, but I don't think they've established that limitation.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Joe H<seacoast44@...>wrote:
Since usually the designer makes his living from designing and selling plans, my opinion would be that it's inappropriate to purchase used plans. Joe
---
>
It is probably innapropriate, but what is one to do when you can't even get the price of plans? Actually my understanding is that the plans are essentially a license to produce one boat, and if they have not been used to produce a boat it is probably, strictly legally speaking, to sell those plans with their implied license. In my case I have faxed PB&F twice since February 2nd trying to get the price for the Bantam and Cabin Clam Skiff plans so I can send a check, with no response. Regards, Jeff --- OnThu, 2/11/10, Joe H<seacoast44@...>wrote:
|
Since usually the designer makes his living from designing and selling plans, my opinion would be that it's inappropriate to purchase used plans. Joe
---
---
>
Is there any sort of market for purchased, but not used, Bolger plans?
Is it appropriate to either offer to buy or offer to sell such plans on this forum?
Does buying a second-hand, but unused, set of plans entitle the new owner to whatever assistance from PB&F that the original owner was entitled to?
Is it appropriate to buy or sell USED plans, if the only intent of the new owner is to use them as study plans?
Thanks,
John
Is it appropriate to either offer to buy or offer to sell such plans on this forum?
Does buying a second-hand, but unused, set of plans entitle the new owner to whatever assistance from PB&F that the original owner was entitled to?
Is it appropriate to buy or sell USED plans, if the only intent of the new owner is to use them as study plans?
Thanks,
John