Re: Epoxy Choice - Ratio Scale
I used the Joe/Tom design - basically a 1"x3" board scrap with screws for the pivots and it worked out just fine. The only slight simplification was that instead of using a penny to balance the board, I just used a block plane to take a shaving or two from the heavier end when I built it, and used the shaving method to adjust the balance if the moisture content of the board changed enough to put it out of balance. 30 minute job and cost nothing.
Cheers, Brian
Cheers, Brian
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Proa
>
> The two designs you linked work on the same principle, but being a minimalist I tried for the simplest I could devise. Mine is much less complicated, cheap, easier to make, easier to use, and uses only one cup of any size. Credit Tom Hamernink for simplifying it even further by using two screws for the pivot.
>
> Joe T
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@> wrote:
> >
> > Cool design. I was hoping I had caught up with the saw blade scale plan...
> >
> > Of course one can just use electronic gram or grain scales. I used a .2 gram postal scale for a while, but the availability of very cheap electronic scales in the grain range is a whole new world. Balances are faster if one uses just one type of epoxy all the time or I suppose has a lot of different calibrations.
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
> > >
> > > This is a good place to plug my favorite measuring system. My "Epoxy Ratio Scale" article is in Duckworks. Google it there.
> > >
> > > Joe T
> > >
> >
>
Thank you Proa
The two designs you linked work on the same principle, but being a minimalist I tried for the simplest I could devise. Mine is much less complicated, cheap, easier to make, easier to use, and uses only one cup of any size. Credit Tom Hamernink for simplifying it even further by using two screws for the pivot.
Joe T
The two designs you linked work on the same principle, but being a minimalist I tried for the simplest I could devise. Mine is much less complicated, cheap, easier to make, easier to use, and uses only one cup of any size. Credit Tom Hamernink for simplifying it even further by using two screws for the pivot.
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
>
> Cool design. I was hoping I had caught up with the saw blade scale plan...
>
> Of course one can just use electronic gram or grain scales. I used a .2 gram postal scale for a while, but the availability of very cheap electronic scales in the grain range is a whole new world. Balances are faster if one uses just one type of epoxy all the time or I suppose has a lot of different calibrations.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
> >
> > This is a good place to plug my favorite measuring system. My "Epoxy Ratio Scale" article is in Duckworks. Google it there.
> >
> > Joe T
> >
>
http://www.epoxyworks.com/20/pdf/Ew20_Zhivago.pdf
http://www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com/BldrManual/INTRODUCTION-3.html#EPOXY%20SCALES
http://www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com/BldrManual/INTRODUCTION-3.html#EPOXY%20SCALES
Cool design. I was hoping I had caught up with the saw blade scale plan...
Of course one can just use electronic gram or grain scales. I used a .2 gram postal scale for a while, but the availability of very cheap electronic scales in the grain range is a whole new world. Balances are faster if one uses just one type of epoxy all the time or I suppose has a lot of different calibrations.
Of course one can just use electronic gram or grain scales. I used a .2 gram postal scale for a while, but the availability of very cheap electronic scales in the grain range is a whole new world. Balances are faster if one uses just one type of epoxy all the time or I suppose has a lot of different calibrations.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> This is a good place to plug my favorite measuring system. My "Epoxy Ratio Scale" article is in Duckworks. Google it there.
>
> Joe T
>
Great choice that is just like-ish the one I am making.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GBroadlick@... wrote:
>
>
> I havent followed all of this thread but i think this will do the trick
>http://www.duckworksbbs.com/supplies/tools/sticky/index.htm
>
>
The scale system, at least for S3, works great. After I discovered it I never used any other method. Especially perfect for small mixes, but can be used with all mixes limited only by the strength of the scale. I built my scale maybe 5 or more years ago but I don't think I got the idea off the Duckworks article. Maybe MAIB? Not sure where I discovered it...
John O
John O
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> This is a good place to plug my favorite measuring system. My "Epoxy Ratio Scale" article is in Duckworks. Google it there.
>
> Joe T
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" <j.hess@> wrote:
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Re: pumps. Is epoxy best measured by weight or volume? I have
> > > noticed that the 1:1 that I work with the resin is not equal density
> > > to the hardener.
> > >
> >
> > You can do it either way, but you are correct that the density of the two aren't the same. I wanted to weigh Raka epoxy once, so asked them the correct ratio. Their 127 Resin & 350 Hardener, specified at 2:1 by volume, is 100:43, by weight.
> >
>
This is a good place to plug my favorite measuring system. My "Epoxy Ratio Scale" article is in Duckworks. Google it there.
Joe T
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" <j.hess@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
> >
> > Re: pumps. Is epoxy best measured by weight or volume? I have
> > noticed that the 1:1 that I work with the resin is not equal density
> > to the hardener.
> >
>
> You can do it either way, but you are correct that the density of the two aren't the same. I wanted to weigh Raka epoxy once, so asked them the correct ratio. Their 127 Resin & 350 Hardener, specified at 2:1 by volume, is 100:43, by weight.
>
I havent followed all of this thread but i think this will do the trick
-----Original Message-----
From: proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Mar 30, 2010 4:55 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: Epoxy Choice
I feel strongly about the measuring thing. If one considers that there is like 800 pounds of epoxy in the CC35, and a lot of that, maybe half, will be small batches, the time spent waiting for the pumps to come back up, not to mention all the other time wasting stuff associated with small pumps, will really add up.
"But the nicest thing ever for small batches,... I think, and I'd confidently measure down to a half- and a quarter-ounce. "
I use something similar to that all the time. It is called a PD dose syringe, for pediatric dosage. It is available in all the pharmacies around here. They are a little expensive like 2 bucks each. They fit in supplied rubber step stoppers, but also can be inserted in any plastic cap into which you drill a 3mm hole. They are great Syringes because they have o-rings rather than the rubber bungs, and they never seem to pop off or stall. They can last for years in epoxy.
I once found a pot of them, for 25 cents each, at a check-out. I stupidly bought 25 of them, wish I had bought every last one...
For larger sizes I would like to turn a piston for a stock o-ring and use it in large body syringe, but so far I haven't bust a move on that one.
I once found online plans for this cool balance for epoxy. The guy had a sawzall long blade or keyhole blade. This thing stuck out to the front. He had two weights one was proportional to the resin, and the other proportional to the hardener (keeping in mind the mix ratio and weight ratio are different). There was a basket on the back and one used some other weight to zero that with a mixing pot. He would choose a amount by moving the hanging weights out along the teeth in the blade. He would pour in the resin till that balanced, then he would add the hardener counter weight to the resin weight and top it up till that balanced. Really rugged simple plywood shop tool with pretty infinite adjustments and worked fast. Only problem is I lost that URL. I mean one could figure it out, but I hope to see it again first.
From: proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Mar 30, 2010 4:55 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: Epoxy Choice
I know what you mean, still people are splashing out the dough for 400 buck drill drivers, or Fein tools, so there ought to be someone out there who could pony up for a gear pump. I haven't talked to JM about it, but I suspect he may have plans for an S3 gear pump. It seems like it would be an easy project if one could just get the right hydraulic gear pump as far as rubber durability is concerned. The really cool part is that all one has to do to vary ratios (if that is an issue) to use different gears to turnt he pumps.> The big gear pumps ain't cheap enough for me, I'm sorry to say. Little pumps, sure.
I feel strongly about the measuring thing. If one considers that there is like 800 pounds of epoxy in the CC35, and a lot of that, maybe half, will be small batches, the time spent waiting for the pumps to come back up, not to mention all the other time wasting stuff associated with small pumps, will really add up.
"But the nicest thing ever for small batches,... I think, and I'd confidently measure down to a half- and a quarter-ounce. "
I use something similar to that all the time. It is called a PD dose syringe, for pediatric dosage. It is available in all the pharmacies around here. They are a little expensive like 2 bucks each. They fit in supplied rubber step stoppers, but also can be inserted in any plastic cap into which you drill a 3mm hole. They are great Syringes because they have o-rings rather than the rubber bungs, and they never seem to pop off or stall. They can last for years in epoxy.
I once found a pot of them, for 25 cents each, at a check-out. I stupidly bought 25 of them, wish I had bought every last one...
For larger sizes I would like to turn a piston for a stock o-ring and use it in large body syringe, but so far I haven't bust a move on that one.
I once found online plans for this cool balance for epoxy. The guy had a sawzall long blade or keyhole blade. This thing stuck out to the front. He had two weights one was proportional to the resin, and the other proportional to the hardener (keeping in mind the mix ratio and weight ratio are different). There was a basket on the back and one used some other weight to zero that with a mixing pot. He would choose a amount by moving the hanging weights out along the teeth in the blade. He would pour in the resin till that balanced, then he would add the hardener counter weight to the resin weight and top it up till that balanced. Really rugged simple plywood shop tool with pretty infinite adjustments and worked fast. Only problem is I lost that URL. I mean one could figure it out, but I hope to see it again first.
I've had some S3 sitting in the garage for 10 years. It crystallized
within the pump cavity as well as a bit in the bottom of the jug. When
warmed up, the stuff in the jug was fine.
I suspect I could get the stuff in the pump to liquefy again as well,
but I didn't want to mess with it... I just used a couple old 35mm film
cans for measuring.
proaconstrictor wrote:
within the pump cavity as well as a bit in the bottom of the jug. When
warmed up, the stuff in the jug was fine.
I suspect I could get the stuff in the pump to liquefy again as well,
but I didn't want to mess with it... I just used a couple old 35mm film
cans for measuring.
proaconstrictor wrote:
> I have had crystallization problems with WESt, but it was very old and was stored in moderate temp over winter. Like maybe 50. I have had severe crystallization problems with S3 and some Clarkcraft. The WEST heated out. The S3 did the first time, but eventually did not, after a summer in a very hot room it was still solid in places.
>
> There seems to be an age and cold thing happening, just a guess. I get suckered into buying large quantities because epoxy is expensive up here, and then have it sitting around for several years. I have heard of people having problems when it was shipped in winter.
I have had crystallization problems with WESt, but it was very old and was stored in moderate temp over winter. Like maybe 50. I have had severe crystallization problems with S3 and some Clarkcraft. The WEST heated out. The S3 did the first time, but eventually did not, after a summer in a very hot room it was still solid in places.
There seems to be an age and cold thing happening, just a guess. I get suckered into buying large quantities because epoxy is expensive up here, and then have it sitting around for several years. I have heard of people having problems when it was shipped in winter.
There seems to be an age and cold thing happening, just a guess. I get suckered into buying large quantities because epoxy is expensive up here, and then have it sitting around for several years. I have heard of people having problems when it was shipped in winter.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography" <jon@...> wrote:
>
> Eric,
>
> > Bruce is using the heating pad to prevent crystalization of the epoxy. If this happens (cool or cold garage, etc), Put the jug in a warm tub until it liquifies. Or perhaps just set it on a heating pad like Bruce keeps his on. I've not had much trouble except when leaving my epoxy out during below 35*F weather for long periods of time.
> ...snip...
>
> My two cents:
>
> After using West on my first boat, on the next I used Raka. This was years ago when they didn't offer calibrated pumps and I kept getting the mix ratio wrong. I went back to West after that and have built over a dozen boats with it now.
>
> I have never heard of this crystalization problem. My shop gets really, really cold in the winter and I certainly can't pump any epoxy at that temperature, but I've never seen it change into something other than a very thick liquid. I built a small wheeled cart to move the epoxy in front of the woodstove until it's warm enough to pump, and plan my work around the warm-up time. I like the heating pad idea, but I'd have to run the generator for it.
>
> The cold affects the cure time, too. In the dead of winter, it can be -20F or lower outside when I arrive at my shop on a Saturday and below 0F inside, too. It's not uncommon for epoxy I laid up the previous Sunday to still be too green to sand the following weekend. Paying attention to the fire and with a little sunshine, I can get the shop up in the mid 50's F for few hours. Normally, it will finish curing that day, but obviously it makes for a long building schedule. It always eventually cures, though, and I've never had any problems afterward.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com
>
I suppose you have to ask the manufacturer, because as you mention the mix ratio by weight is normally not the same as by volume. So WEST is 5-1 by volume. You have to ferret out the weight or measure it yourself if you want to use postal scales etc... S3 is 2-1 by volume. and so forth.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> Re: pumps. Is epoxy best measured by weight or volume? I have
> noticed that the 1:1 that I work with the resin is not equal density
> to the hardener.
>
I don't think system three is as hard as WEST, but it is certainly up to almost everything. If one knows one will be making a carbon fiber spar, or wooden trimaran beams, etc... can't hurt to split the order. For Bolger stuff it will do it all.
I just think that some of these companies that came later don't see the point in trying to out-west west. It is a big market. Kern Hendricks who started S3 was a Jim Brown trimaran builder, and the resin he came up with was very much in the mold of the way Jim liked to build with (?) for instance he likes a fluid enough mix that one could apply it over glass with a fiberglass lamination roller.
The only thing that bugs me is when the manufacturers start saying that flexibility is good and one needs soft epoxy. You take aluminum in foil thickness and it flexes just fine. Same thing with hard epoxy coatings, but when the pressure is turned up, it seems like most of the epoxies used for high tech stuff are pretty hard, and are cured even harder in ovens. Take a graphite arrow or fishing rod one can't indent the surface of the product with a fingernail, which is pretty common on some soft epoxies, particularly early in the cure.
Many of the failures I have had have occurred during the build phase. Maybe the epoxy would hold up in the water, but something straightens out after on takes it out of a mold... So do I want to wait 6 months for the stuff to cure at room temp? I have had that problem. It's all good, but they aren't all the same.
I just think that some of these companies that came later don't see the point in trying to out-west west. It is a big market. Kern Hendricks who started S3 was a Jim Brown trimaran builder, and the resin he came up with was very much in the mold of the way Jim liked to build with (?) for instance he likes a fluid enough mix that one could apply it over glass with a fiberglass lamination roller.
The only thing that bugs me is when the manufacturers start saying that flexibility is good and one needs soft epoxy. You take aluminum in foil thickness and it flexes just fine. Same thing with hard epoxy coatings, but when the pressure is turned up, it seems like most of the epoxies used for high tech stuff are pretty hard, and are cured even harder in ovens. Take a graphite arrow or fishing rod one can't indent the surface of the product with a fingernail, which is pretty common on some soft epoxies, particularly early in the cure.
Many of the failures I have had have occurred during the build phase. Maybe the epoxy would hold up in the water, but something straightens out after on takes it out of a mold... So do I want to wait 6 months for the stuff to cure at room temp? I have had that problem. It's all good, but they aren't all the same.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss <jrweiss98155@...> wrote:
>
> I've only used System 3, since that's what came with the only boat [kit]
> I've built...
>
>
> The big gear pumps ain't cheap enough for me, I'm sorry to say. Little pumps, sure.I know what you mean, still people are splashing out the dough for 400 buck drill drivers, or Fein tools, so there ought to be someone out there who could pony up for a gear pump. I haven't talked to JM about it, but I suspect he may have plans for an S3 gear pump. It seems like it would be an easy project if one could just get the right hydraulic gear pump as far as rubber durability is concerned. The really cool part is that all one has to do to vary ratios (if that is an issue) to use different gears to turnt he pumps.
I feel strongly about the measuring thing. If one considers that there is like 800 pounds of epoxy in the CC35, and a lot of that, maybe half, will be small batches, the time spent waiting for the pumps to come back up, not to mention all the other time wasting stuff associated with small pumps, will really add up.
"But the nicest thing ever for small batches,... I think, and I'd confidently measure down to a half- and a quarter-ounce."
I use something similar to that all the time. It is called a PD dose syringe, for pediatric dosage. It is available in all the pharmacies around here. They are a little expensive like 2 bucks each. They fit in supplied rubber step stoppers, but also can be inserted in any plastic cap into which you drill a 3mm hole. They are great Syringes because they have o-rings rather than the rubber bungs, and they never seem to pop off or stall. They can last for years in epoxy.
I once found a pot of them, for 25 cents each, at a check-out. I stupidly bought 25 of them, wish I had bought every last one...
For larger sizes I would like to turn a piston for a stock o-ring and use it in large body syringe, but so far I haven't bust a move on that one.
I once found online plans for this cool balance for epoxy. The guy had a sawzall long blade or keyhole blade. This thing stuck out to the front. He had two weights one was proportional to the resin, and the other proportional to the hardener (keeping in mind the mix ratio and weight ratio are different). There was a basket on the back and one used some other weight to zero that with a mixing pot. He would choose a amount by moving the hanging weights out along the teeth in the blade. He would pour in the resin till that balanced, then he would add the hardener counter weight to the resin weight and top it up till that balanced. Really rugged simple plywood shop tool with pretty infinite adjustments and worked fast. Only problem is I lost that URL. I mean one could figure it out, but I hope to see it again first.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>You can do it either way, but you are correct that the density of the two aren't the same. I wanted to weigh Raka epoxy once, so asked them the correct ratio. Their 127 Resin & 350 Hardener, specified at 2:1 by volume, is 100:43, by weight.
> Re: pumps. Is epoxy best measured by weight or volume? I have
> noticed that the 1:1 that I work with the resin is not equal density
> to the hardener.
>
I have used West, East, Raka and MAS - all seem to work okay !!
I almost always measure by volume.
My personal preference is toward the 5/1 formulations and usually
do not trust the pumps for this, but have used them.
I built a dragon boat for a local group and they sent the wrong
pumps for the (15 gallons of 5/1 East System) containers so I used the six increment stick method to measure the volums and never had a mis mix though one is supposed to measure by weight !!
With Raka it seems that about every 10-15 batches stay soft for
an extended period but ultimately cure !!
Be careful which thickener you use for which application - the structural fillers are tough to sand !!
Good luck and the Pirogue is a good place start. I built one as my
first boat from the Yellow Leaf Plans 30 years ago and was so dumb
I used bath tub caulk to seal the chines (though it worked)
Jim
I almost always measure by volume.
My personal preference is toward the 5/1 formulations and usually
do not trust the pumps for this, but have used them.
I built a dragon boat for a local group and they sent the wrong
pumps for the (15 gallons of 5/1 East System) containers so I used the six increment stick method to measure the volums and never had a mis mix though one is supposed to measure by weight !!
With Raka it seems that about every 10-15 batches stay soft for
an extended period but ultimately cure !!
Be careful which thickener you use for which application - the structural fillers are tough to sand !!
Good luck and the Pirogue is a good place start. I built one as my
first boat from the Yellow Leaf Plans 30 years ago and was so dumb
I used bath tub caulk to seal the chines (though it worked)
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "wetherillc" <wetherillc@...> wrote:
>
> Starting to make serious plan to build Payson's Pirogue. Wondering what opinions prevail regarding
>
> 1) West vs MAS. My impression is that MAS is more forgiving in that it stays tacky for longer, thus allowing more leisurely pace with multiple layers, i.e. when taping over fillets.
>
> 2) MAS standard vs low viscosity. Is it practical to use low vis. for fillets?
>
> 3) Has anyone used the procedure for polyurethane outlined by Gavin Atkin in his book Ultrasimple Boatbuilding: PU Masonry adhesive and fiberglass drywall tape?
> Thanks
> Chris
>
Eric,
My two cents:
After using West on my first boat, on the next I used Raka. This was years ago when they didn't offer calibrated pumps and I kept getting the mix ratio wrong. I went back to West after that and have built over a dozen boats with it now.
I have never heard of this crystalization problem. My shop gets really, really cold in the winter and I certainly can't pump any epoxy at that temperature, but I've never seen it change into something other than a very thick liquid. I built a small wheeled cart to move the epoxy in front of the woodstove until it's warm enough to pump, and plan my work around the warm-up time. I like the heating pad idea, but I'd have to run the generator for it.
The cold affects the cure time, too. In the dead of winter, it can be -20F or lower outside when I arrive at my shop on a Saturday and below 0F inside, too. It's not uncommon for epoxy I laid up the previous Sunday to still be too green to sand the following weekend. Paying attention to the fire and with a little sunshine, I can get the shop up in the mid 50's F for few hours. Normally, it will finish curing that day, but obviously it makes for a long building schedule. It always eventually cures, though, and I've never had any problems afterward.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com
> Bruce is using the heating pad to prevent crystalization of the epoxy. If this happens (cool or cold garage, etc), Put the jug in a warm tub until it liquifies. Or perhaps just set it on a heating pad like Bruce keeps his on. I've not had much trouble except when leaving my epoxy out during below 35*F weather for long periods of time....snip...
My two cents:
After using West on my first boat, on the next I used Raka. This was years ago when they didn't offer calibrated pumps and I kept getting the mix ratio wrong. I went back to West after that and have built over a dozen boats with it now.
I have never heard of this crystalization problem. My shop gets really, really cold in the winter and I certainly can't pump any epoxy at that temperature, but I've never seen it change into something other than a very thick liquid. I built a small wheeled cart to move the epoxy in front of the woodstove until it's warm enough to pump, and plan my work around the warm-up time. I like the heating pad idea, but I'd have to run the generator for it.
The cold affects the cure time, too. In the dead of winter, it can be -20F or lower outside when I arrive at my shop on a Saturday and below 0F inside, too. It's not uncommon for epoxy I laid up the previous Sunday to still be too green to sand the following weekend. Paying attention to the fire and with a little sunshine, I can get the shop up in the mid 50's F for few hours. Normally, it will finish curing that day, but obviously it makes for a long building schedule. It always eventually cures, though, and I've never had any problems afterward.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com
I've only used System 3, since that's what came with the only boat [kit]
I've built...
The System 3 manual sez the epoxy is only about 80% cured after 72
hours, and it continues to cure for several months after that. Temps
above 80F will accelerate the cure. They also recommend waiting a
couple months before painting or varnishing when practicable.
System 3 is of the blushing variety, but I also never saw that as a
problem. A quick wash with a nylon scrubber and soapy water before
wet-sanding, and it's ready to go!
proaconstrictor wrote:
I've built...
The System 3 manual sez the epoxy is only about 80% cured after 72
hours, and it continues to cure for several months after that. Temps
above 80F will accelerate the cure. They also recommend waiting a
couple months before painting or varnishing when practicable.
System 3 is of the blushing variety, but I also never saw that as a
problem. A quick wash with a nylon scrubber and soapy water before
wet-sanding, and it's ready to go!
proaconstrictor wrote:
> I don't want flexible for gluing I want as hard as I can get. One thing though is that hardness seems to increase over time. I had this 1-1 stuff that was like cheese when it cured, but a year latter it was reasonably good. I have had joints that separated due to the softness of the glue. Depends how redundant the joinery is. Some stuff is highly loaded from the get-go, like curved laminations can be, or stress formed hulls. Bolger stuff tends to be low end.
>
> I don't really get the big blush deal. Never really bothered me. Maybe if it was more tropical where I lived, or I was building a 50 footer...
Re: pumps. Is epoxy best measured by weight or volume? I have
noticed that the 1:1 that I work with the resin is not equal density
to the hardener.
noticed that the 1:1 that I work with the resin is not equal density
to the hardener.
The big gear pumps ain't cheap enough for me, I'm
sorry to say. Little pumps, sure. But the nicest thing ever for small batches,
and not so very small, is the calibrated syringes System Three used to sell.
They stuck into the caps of your resin and hardener containers, and you tipped
the containers up and drew down just what you estimated you wanted. The fact
that the cross sections of the bores of the syringes were 2:1 in area meant that
you drew down the same distance, while reading the scales, and this helped you
get it right. They stopped selling these things, and I sqwawked and bought the
last few they had. They beat the little pumps in my opinion and I had more faith
in them. They were 60 and 30 cc, max, I think, and I'd confidently measure down
to a half- and a quarter-ounce.
----- Original Message -----From:Pierce NicholsSent:Sunday, March 28, 2010 3:56 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] Re: Epoxy ChoiceOn Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:39 PM, proaconstrictor
<proaconstrictor@ yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> I started with WEST system. 5:1 mix is a pita. Hard, brittle, easy to goof the ratio; probably more alergenic than System 3 which I liked,
>
> Right it's hard to saw to a line also. One either tools up (pumps in this case), or gains the skill over time.
The pumps are so cheap compared to the epoxy that I can't see why
anyone would skimp on that. They make getting the right mix about as
hard as falling off a log.
> Toxicity wise WEST is a known sensitizer, but on the positive, it has been around a long time, and I trust the people that make it. There are other products out there, one does not know what is in them. OSHA has been all over WEST because it is used in manufacturing. The main risk seems to be getting the stuff on skin. Anyone who has been around epoxies for a while knows to work clean, and I would add it helps to not inhale the stuff. Sooner or latter you may well pay for slack safety.
That's true to some extent of all epoxies, and WEST is certainly
better than many other epoxies on the market as far as toxicity and
allergenicity goes.
-p
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
>There are also tons of other simple techniques for metering small or large amounts of epoxy with accuracy. I have never built a boat larger than 24 feet, but if I did I would splash out on a gear pump. Back in the good old days when S3 was so builder friendly, they had plans home made pumps. I used one once and it was really sweet. They stopped selling the plans at some point, and when the internet happened, I spent years trying to find someone with the plans. Then one day it hit me. "That thing has John Marples written all over it" He being particularly clever at figuring out how to make stuff at home. Turned out I was right, and John will still sell one the plans.
> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:39 PM, proaconstrictor
> <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
> >
> >> I started with WEST system. 5:1 mix is a pita. Hard, brittle, easy to goof the ratio; probably more alergenic than System 3 which I liked,
> >
> > Right it's hard to saw to a line also. One either tools up (pumps in this case), or gains the skill over time.
>
> The pumps are so cheap compared to the epoxy that I can't see why
> anyone would skimp on that. They make getting the right mix about as
> hard as falling off a log.
>WEST hardener is not nice stuff, but it doesn't seem to do anything too much worse than the allergic stuff. I just keep it off my skin. Worst allergic reaction I ever got was from wearing gloves over barrier cream, at the doctors office they knew all about that. Second worst was from Weldwood plastic resin cement. Proof that a water mix, a creamy look, and nice smell, isn't always the answer. :)
> > Toxicity wise WEST is a known sensitizer, but on the positive, it has been around a long time, and I trust the people that make it. There are other products out there, one does not know what is in them. OSHA has been all over WEST because it is used in manufacturing. The main risk seems to be getting the stuff on skin. Anyone who has been around epoxies for a while knows to work clean, and I would add it helps to not inhale the stuff. Sooner or latter you may well pay for slack safety.
>
> That's true to some extent of all epoxies, and WEST is certainly
> better than many other epoxies on the market as far as toxicity and
> allergenicity goes.
>
> -p
>
rote:
The problem is that the material, epoxy, is not wood. It has issues like creep to deal with. Even if the hardness were an issue at some level, if softer epoxies come with creep it's a problem. But the hardness isn't a problem. WEST claims that hardness isn't even a problem in max flexibility issues like under structured decks. What may however be the case is that WEST isn't required in those kinds of circumstances either. So if you have to buy your glue on the open market like the rest of us you might want to buy cheaper products at times... I have used WEST successfully in laminated bow limbs.
The main database on what wood wants when combined with epoxy surely must be the one WEST has assembled over decades of testing, and they come to a different conclusion than you do. WEST is specifically engineered to work with wood (Including manufacturing and engineering done for NASA and GE). And the early formulation work was done with the resources (I think..) of Dupont who had an interest in what they were working on. WEST has created tests that have been adopted by the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers. I have used their info for over 30 years, and never had a reason to regret it. I don't assume one has to use WEST for everything, but I think boatbuilding goes a whole lot if one takes their stuff on board and picks and chooses as needs allow.
WEST has always encouraged people to test their glue against others. They have the notch test wherein one can test different epoxies for creep. I once unwisely did this on a large scale by trying some 1-1 epoxy in a tortured trimaran hull and it ripped like cheese all along the keel.
>That may be generally true but it kinda too general. Do you want rubber nails? Or even wooden or epoxy ones. Wood is a tough material. You can take a few ounces of it and launch an arrow hundreds of yards. it needs serious glue when serious loads are involved and hardness is your friend. I mean even hardened WEST is easily cut with woodworking tools, so it isn't like we are using glass. Oh wait a minute...
> For best joint performance, you want the mechanical properties
> (flexibility, strength, etc) of your glue & fasteners to match that of
> the base material as closely as possible. The discontinuity in
> properties at the joint produces stress concentrations that weaken the
> overall structure, and it is worthwhile to minimize that to the extent
> possible
>
> -p
The problem is that the material, epoxy, is not wood. It has issues like creep to deal with. Even if the hardness were an issue at some level, if softer epoxies come with creep it's a problem. But the hardness isn't a problem. WEST claims that hardness isn't even a problem in max flexibility issues like under structured decks. What may however be the case is that WEST isn't required in those kinds of circumstances either. So if you have to buy your glue on the open market like the rest of us you might want to buy cheaper products at times... I have used WEST successfully in laminated bow limbs.
The main database on what wood wants when combined with epoxy surely must be the one WEST has assembled over decades of testing, and they come to a different conclusion than you do. WEST is specifically engineered to work with wood (Including manufacturing and engineering done for NASA and GE). And the early formulation work was done with the resources (I think..) of Dupont who had an interest in what they were working on. WEST has created tests that have been adopted by the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers. I have used their info for over 30 years, and never had a reason to regret it. I don't assume one has to use WEST for everything, but I think boatbuilding goes a whole lot if one takes their stuff on board and picks and chooses as needs allow.
WEST has always encouraged people to test their glue against others. They have the notch test wherein one can test different epoxies for creep. I once unwisely did this on a large scale by trying some 1-1 epoxy in a tortured trimaran hull and it ripped like cheese all along the keel.
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:39 PM, proaconstrictor
<proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
anyone would skimp on that. They make getting the right mix about as
hard as falling off a log.
better than many other epoxies on the market as far as toxicity and
allergenicity goes.
-p
<proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
>The pumps are so cheap compared to the epoxy that I can't see why
>> I started with WEST system. 5:1 mix is a pita. Hard, brittle, easy to goof the ratio; probably more alergenic than System 3 which I liked,
>
> Right it's hard to saw to a line also. One either tools up (pumps in this case), or gains the skill over time.
anyone would skimp on that. They make getting the right mix about as
hard as falling off a log.
> Toxicity wise WEST is a known sensitizer, but on the positive, it has been around a long time, and I trust the people that make it. There are other products out there, one does not know what is in them. OSHA has been all over WEST because it is used in manufacturing. The main risk seems to be getting the stuff on skin. Anyone who has been around epoxies for a while knows to work clean, and I would add it helps to not inhale the stuff. Sooner or latter you may well pay for slack safety.That's true to some extent of all epoxies, and WEST is certainly
better than many other epoxies on the market as far as toxicity and
allergenicity goes.
-p
For best joint performance, you want the mechanical properties
(flexibility, strength, etc) of your glue & fasteners to match that of
the base material as closely as possible. The discontinuity in
properties at the joint produces stress concentrations that weaken the
overall structure, and it is worthwhile to minimize that to the extent
possible
-p
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:24 PM, proaconstrictor
<proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
(flexibility, strength, etc) of your glue & fasteners to match that of
the base material as closely as possible. The discontinuity in
properties at the joint produces stress concentrations that weaken the
overall structure, and it is worthwhile to minimize that to the extent
possible
-p
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:24 PM, proaconstrictor
<proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
>
> I don't want flexible for gluing I want as hard as I can get. One thing though is that hardness seems to increase over time. I had this 1-1 stuff that was like cheese when it cured, but a year latter it was reasonably good. I have had joints that separated due to the softness of the glue. Depends how redundant the joinery is. Some stuff is highly loaded from the get-go, like curved laminations can be, or stress formed hulls. Bolger stuff tends to be low end.
>
> I don't really get the big blush deal. Never really bothered me. Maybe if it was more tropical where I lived, or I was building a 50 footer...
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon n Wanda" <windyjon@...> wrote:
>>
>> A few notes to add on this. Typicaly 1-1 mixes are thicker and more flexable when cured so they are recomended for glueing. 2-1 mixes are generaly thinner and harder when cured making them better for coating and glassing being able to soak into wood better. The other isue is blushing. Only Cycloaliphatic hardener is truly nonblushing. Some epoxy makers like Mas clame that one of their systems is nonblushing but that is not always the case and why for other then glueing I look for Cycloaliphatic type hardeners for coating and glassing. Many in our local Coots group have switched to AeroMarine and like it for price and quality. It is five days shipping by land to the NW and always fresh. $525+shipping for 15 gallons is hard to beat. In our Coot group all brands have been used by someone and each has its good and bad use what works best for you and your aplication. Some groups have set it up so you get free shipping too.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
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> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> I started with WEST system. 5:1 mix is a pita. Hard, brittle, easy to goof the ratio; probably more alergenic than System 3 which I liked,Right it's hard to saw to a line also. One either tools up (pumps in this case), or gains the skill over time. When I built my trimaran the designer said to use WEST for the heavy loaded stuff and S3 for the other stuff. Turned out to be good advice. WEST is virtually a necessity (or something similar for those who know their way around the chemistry) for lightweight builds. But for hefty boats there is more attitude. The Gougeons built 35 foot personal sailboats that still win against million dollar modern yachts today because even though they are 30+ years old, they only weighed 2200 pounds to start with. Try that with a 1-1 mix.
I like S3, but it is all of a sudden a gold plater expensive product. More expensive than WEST around here. I got asked for 80 buck for a half gallon of hardener, in the Toronto area. When Kern was running the show they seemed to care about making a decently priced product, know they are moving into the premium market and messing with their distributors. S3 was a great company at one time.
Toxicity wise WEST is a known sensitizer, but on the positive, it has been around a long time, and I trust the people that make it. There are other products out there, one does not know what is in them. OSHA has been all over WEST because it is used in manufacturing. The main risk seems to be getting the stuff on skin. Anyone who has been around epoxies for a while knows to work clean, and I would add it helps to not inhale the stuff. Sooner or latter you may well pay for slack safety.
I have a pal who was all into the WEST is overpriced stuff and bought some internet specials stuff. Next thing he is nearly in hospital. About which I would say - Buy some small amounts of whatever you are going to use, and ease into it before buying the big drum of something it later turns out will put you in the ICU. While the toxicity of the major brands is presumably well known, their effects on given individuals is not predictable (well maybe in the dermatology group). About 30% of the pop can take a bath in the stuff. About 30% will be OK if they work clean and don't get sensitized, and about 30% are are going to experience pain. But what kills you with one brand may be ok with another, so be careful out there.
I don't want flexible for gluing I want as hard as I can get. One thing though is that hardness seems to increase over time. I had this 1-1 stuff that was like cheese when it cured, but a year latter it was reasonably good. I have had joints that separated due to the softness of the glue. Depends how redundant the joinery is. Some stuff is highly loaded from the get-go, like curved laminations can be, or stress formed hulls. Bolger stuff tends to be low end.
I don't really get the big blush deal. Never really bothered me. Maybe if it was more tropical where I lived, or I was building a 50 footer...
I don't really get the big blush deal. Never really bothered me. Maybe if it was more tropical where I lived, or I was building a 50 footer...
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon n Wanda" <windyjon@...> wrote:
>
> A few notes to add on this. Typicaly 1-1 mixes are thicker and more flexable when cured so they are recomended for glueing. 2-1 mixes are generaly thinner and harder when cured making them better for coating and glassing being able to soak into wood better. The other isue is blushing. Only Cycloaliphatic hardener is truly nonblushing. Some epoxy makers like Mas clame that one of their systems is nonblushing but that is not always the case and why for other then glueing I look for Cycloaliphatic type hardeners for coating and glassing. Many in our local Coots group have switched to AeroMarine and like it for price and quality. It is five days shipping by land to the NW and always fresh. $525+shipping for 15 gallons is hard to beat. In our Coot group all brands have been used by someone and each has its good and bad use what works best for you and your aplication. Some groups have set it up so you get free shipping too.
>
> Jon
>
A few notes to add on this. Typicaly 1-1 mixes are thicker and more flexable when cured so they are recomended for glueing. 2-1 mixes are generaly thinner and harder when cured making them better for coating and glassing being able to soak into wood better. The other isue is blushing. Only Cycloaliphatic hardener is truly nonblushing. Some epoxy makers like Mas clame that one of their systems is nonblushing but that is not always the case and why for other then glueing I look for Cycloaliphatic type hardeners for coating and glassing. Many in our local Coots group have switched to AeroMarine and like it for price and quality. It is five days shipping by land to the NW and always fresh. $525+shipping for 15 gallons is hard to beat. In our Coot group all brands have been used by someone and each has its good and bad use what works best for you and your aplication. Some groups have set it up so you get free shipping too.
Jon
Jon
The last time I bought from Polymer Products, in Ontario California
(via ebay), they sold it packaged it in four 2.5 gallon bottles, two
of hardener and two of resin. I paid about $400 plus shipping.
These are US gallons, and it equals 37.8 liters total.
(via ebay), they sold it packaged it in four 2.5 gallon bottles, two
of hardener and two of resin. I paid about $400 plus shipping.
These are US gallons, and it equals 37.8 liters total.
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Andrew Wallace <visayannz@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Bruce,
> When you say you buy 10 gallons at a time of 1:1 epoxy, does that mean 5 gallons of resin and 5 of hardener?
> I'm interested because I'd like to know the comparison with what I pay for epoxy in New Zealand. The best deal I have found here is NZ$109 for a 5 litre pack of 4:1 at NZ Fibreglass Ltd in Auckland. That equates to US$77.00 for 3.78 US gallons or just over US$20.00 a gallon.
> This surprises me because if my figures are correct the price is only about half what you are paying over there, and I thought we were paying 'over the top' in NZ (which we do for most things in comparison with the USA).
> On the other hand, if your 'ten gallons' is 10 of resin and 10 of hardener, well, we're about level..
> Cheers,
> Andrew.
>
My figureswerewrong! - and my assumption re prices in general was right.. The NZ$109 I pay for 5 litres equates to about US$58.00 (not $20.00) a gallon. You are better off...
Andrew.
From:Andrew Wallace <visayannz@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Sat, 27 March, 2010 3:52:42 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Epoxy Choice
Andrew.
From:Andrew Wallace <visayannz@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Sat, 27 March, 2010 3:52:42 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Epoxy Choice
Bruce,
When you say you buy 10 gallons at a time of 1:1 epoxy, does that mean 5 gallons of resin and 5 of hardener?
I'm interested because I'd like to know the comparison with what I pay for epoxy in New Zealand. The best deal I have found here is NZ$109 for a 5 litre pack of 4:1 at NZ Fibreglass Ltd in Auckland. That equates to US$77.00 for 3.78 US gallons or just over US$20.00 a gallon.
This surprises me because if my figures are correct the price is only about half what you are paying over there, and I thought we were paying 'over the top' in NZ (which we do for most things in comparison with the USA).
On the other hand, if your 'ten gallons' is 10 of resin and 10 of hardener, well, we're about level..
Cheers,
Andrew.
From:Bruce Hallman <hallman@gmail. com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups. com
Sent:Sat, 27 March, 2010 4:19:57 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Epoxy Choice
When you say you buy 10 gallons at a time of 1:1 epoxy, does that mean 5 gallons of resin and 5 of hardener?
I'm interested because I'd like to know the comparison with what I pay for epoxy in New Zealand. The best deal I have found here is NZ$109 for a 5 litre pack of 4:1 at NZ Fibreglass Ltd in Auckland. That equates to US$77.00 for 3.78 US gallons or just over US$20.00 a gallon.
This surprises me because if my figures are correct the price is only about half what you are paying over there, and I thought we were paying 'over the top' in NZ (which we do for most things in comparison with the USA).
On the other hand, if your 'ten gallons' is 10 of resin and 10 of hardener, well, we're about level..
Cheers,
Andrew.
From:Bruce Hallman <hallman@gmail. com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups. com
Sent:Sat, 27 March, 2010 4:19:57 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Epoxy Choice
You will get a hundred different opinions about this!
Personally, after some hard lessons learned, I have settled on buying
generic 1:1 epoxy in bulk. I buy 10 gallons at a time on eBay for
about $400. It keeps well in my garage, and I set the bottles on a
low temperature "back ache" heating pad that runs 24/7 to keep it
warm.
I would expect to use about 1 1/2 gallons for a Pirogue, assuming you
are sheathing the plywood inside and out. Having spare epoxy in the
shop is not a bad thing, if you are like me, there is always the next
boat, and the one after that.
The eBay vendor is named "Polymer Products".
Bruce,
When you say you buy 10 gallons at a time of 1:1 epoxy, does that mean 5 gallons of resin and 5 of hardener?
I'm interested because I'd like to know the comparison with what I pay for epoxy in New Zealand. The best deal I have found here is NZ$109 for a 5 litre pack of 4:1 at NZ Fibreglass Ltd in Auckland. That equates to US$77.00 for 3.78 US gallons or just over US$20.00 a gallon.
This surprises me because if my figures are correct the price is only about half what you are paying over there, and I thought we were paying 'over the top' in NZ (which we do for most things in comparison with the USA).
On the other hand, if your 'ten gallons' is 10 of resin and 10 of hardener, well, we're about level..
Cheers,
Andrew.
From:Bruce Hallman <hallman@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Sat, 27 March, 2010 4:19:57 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Epoxy Choice
When you say you buy 10 gallons at a time of 1:1 epoxy, does that mean 5 gallons of resin and 5 of hardener?
I'm interested because I'd like to know the comparison with what I pay for epoxy in New Zealand. The best deal I have found here is NZ$109 for a 5 litre pack of 4:1 at NZ Fibreglass Ltd in Auckland. That equates to US$77.00 for 3.78 US gallons or just over US$20.00 a gallon.
This surprises me because if my figures are correct the price is only about half what you are paying over there, and I thought we were paying 'over the top' in NZ (which we do for most things in comparison with the USA).
On the other hand, if your 'ten gallons' is 10 of resin and 10 of hardener, well, we're about level..
Cheers,
Andrew.
From:Bruce Hallman <hallman@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Sat, 27 March, 2010 4:19:57 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Epoxy Choice
You will get a hundred different opinions about this!
Personally, after some hard lessons learned, I have settled on buying
generic 1:1 epoxy in bulk. I buy 10 gallons at a time on eBay for
about $400. It keeps well in my garage, and I set the bottles on a
low temperature "back ache" heating pad that runs 24/7 to keep it
warm.
I would expect to use about 1 1/2 gallons for a Pirogue, assuming you
are sheathing the plywood inside and out. Having spare epoxy in the
shop is not a bad thing, if you are like me, there is always the next
boat, and the one after that.
The eBay vendor is named "Polymer Products".
The answers you have gotten are excellent.
I started with WEST system. 5:1 mix is a pita. Hard, brittle, easy to goof the ratio; probably more alergenic than System 3 which I liked, MAS which is far more expensive, but specifically formulated for working with wood (call them. I talked to their chemist and got very clear, no bs, answers to my questions) I was impressed with MAS and would use it if I was building a cost is no issue boat. RAKA is my choice now. 9 or 10 gallons is in the shop waiting for a project to be on the agenda and as a hedge against the return of high petroleum product costs.
Bruce Hallman's advice is always sage. For myself, the 20% greater cost of RAKA is worth it because I've heard the industrial stuff is more apt to cause sensitisation, and I think 2:1 has better penetration and strength characteristics, but google the last. Its been far too long since I looked at the characteristics of 5:1 vs 2:1 vs 1:1 epoxy. I like using 2:1 The mix is less critical at 2:1 than five to one. The difference in viscosicity of hardener and epoxy is different enough to keep me from getting mixed up, though that is not true with MAS as I recall. Also, when I am doing large batches I set out lots of cups paired Epoxy/hardener premeasured. I dump the easier flowing epoxy into the hardener, mix, add thickeners, use.
Bruce is using the heating pad to prevent crystalization of the epoxy. If this happens (cool or cold garage, etc), Put the jug in a warm tub until it liquifies. Or perhaps just set it on a heating pad like Bruce keeps his on. I've not had much trouble except when leaving my epoxy out during below 35*F weather for long periods of time. I suspect my guess at 35* is much higher than the reality of my garage this past winter in the north east. Industrial epoxy may have more problems that way, require the heating pad to prevent crystalization, and that heating pad may increase the cost of your epoxy another hundred dollars by the time you use it. Few of us are as productive boat builders as Bruce.
Because epoxy lasts indefinitely it can be much cheaper to buy than products that expire because they absorb moisture from the air (powder glue), tubes that harden if not used within year or so of manufacture, autobody resin that lasts about a year including the seller's shelf time, and products like PL etc that not only cost more per glue line but don't do the job well. The cement and sheetrock tape may work, but I've done sheetrock taping and that tape will take a lot of fairing at additional material and time expense. Make sure it really is cheaper to use than $45/gal epoxy which with additives works as glue on wood, steel (careful of crevice crack corrosion with stainless) aluminium, polyester fiberglass, etc. and works as a fillet. You learn to use one material well (epoxy), and it works well, usually the best choice, in a wide variety of situations.
I will warn against using it to glue planks thicker than 3/8" unless careful to keep moisture constant. even 3/8 will delaminate if some care isn't taken as happened to me with some walnut trim.
Happy boatbuilding.
Eric
I started with WEST system. 5:1 mix is a pita. Hard, brittle, easy to goof the ratio; probably more alergenic than System 3 which I liked, MAS which is far more expensive, but specifically formulated for working with wood (call them. I talked to their chemist and got very clear, no bs, answers to my questions) I was impressed with MAS and would use it if I was building a cost is no issue boat. RAKA is my choice now. 9 or 10 gallons is in the shop waiting for a project to be on the agenda and as a hedge against the return of high petroleum product costs.
Bruce Hallman's advice is always sage. For myself, the 20% greater cost of RAKA is worth it because I've heard the industrial stuff is more apt to cause sensitisation, and I think 2:1 has better penetration and strength characteristics, but google the last. Its been far too long since I looked at the characteristics of 5:1 vs 2:1 vs 1:1 epoxy. I like using 2:1 The mix is less critical at 2:1 than five to one. The difference in viscosicity of hardener and epoxy is different enough to keep me from getting mixed up, though that is not true with MAS as I recall. Also, when I am doing large batches I set out lots of cups paired Epoxy/hardener premeasured. I dump the easier flowing epoxy into the hardener, mix, add thickeners, use.
Bruce is using the heating pad to prevent crystalization of the epoxy. If this happens (cool or cold garage, etc), Put the jug in a warm tub until it liquifies. Or perhaps just set it on a heating pad like Bruce keeps his on. I've not had much trouble except when leaving my epoxy out during below 35*F weather for long periods of time. I suspect my guess at 35* is much higher than the reality of my garage this past winter in the north east. Industrial epoxy may have more problems that way, require the heating pad to prevent crystalization, and that heating pad may increase the cost of your epoxy another hundred dollars by the time you use it. Few of us are as productive boat builders as Bruce.
Because epoxy lasts indefinitely it can be much cheaper to buy than products that expire because they absorb moisture from the air (powder glue), tubes that harden if not used within year or so of manufacture, autobody resin that lasts about a year including the seller's shelf time, and products like PL etc that not only cost more per glue line but don't do the job well. The cement and sheetrock tape may work, but I've done sheetrock taping and that tape will take a lot of fairing at additional material and time expense. Make sure it really is cheaper to use than $45/gal epoxy which with additives works as glue on wood, steel (careful of crevice crack corrosion with stainless) aluminium, polyester fiberglass, etc. and works as a fillet. You learn to use one material well (epoxy), and it works well, usually the best choice, in a wide variety of situations.
I will warn against using it to glue planks thicker than 3/8" unless careful to keep moisture constant. even 3/8 will delaminate if some care isn't taken as happened to me with some walnut trim.
Happy boatbuilding.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "wetherillc" <wetherillc@...> wrote:
>
> Starting to make serious plan to build Payson's Pirogue. Wondering what opinions prevail regarding
>
> 1) West vs MAS. My impression is that MAS is more forgiving in that it stays tacky for longer, thus allowing more leisurely pace with multiple layers, i.e. when taping over fillets.
>
> 2) MAS standard vs low viscosity. Is it practical to use low vis. for fillets?
>
> 3) Has anyone used the procedure for polyurethane outlined by Gavin Atkin in his book Ultrasimple Boatbuilding: PU Masonry adhesive and fiberglass drywall tape?
> Thanks
> Chris
>
Chris,
Not sure why you feel you need to clarify. My answers still stand. I think your are hearing some salesman's talk. If the epoxy stays slightly softer and more flexible for a few days it means nothing. You will not be working with or moving joints or doing anything with your epoxy for a few days. You will be waiting for it to harden (cure) then you will move on to the next task. The only thing this softness could be referring to is the next layer of epoxy adhering better to it. You want your epoxy to harden and not have to wait a few days for your joints to be able to hold a load. Whether your epoxy is thick or thin, you will still have to mix fillers into it to make fillets. The thin is just as easy as the thick to do this.
What choices could you make that would cause you problems. 1) you could get epoxy that cured to fast and got hard in the middle of your task. Look at the cure times and understand that epoxy sets up faster when it is kept in the mixing cup to concentrate the heat. Heat allows it to cure. They have tables to show temps and cure times. If it's not to cold where you will work, get slow hardener. 2) you could get epoxy that is to thick that wouldn't easily wet out fiberglass cloth you were laminating to the wood.
Thats it, to fast and to thick can cause problems otherwise you are safe.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 26 Mar, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
I guess I need to clarify my questions.
I have seen, on one of the sites where I lurk, statements to the effect that MAS mixed with standard hardener is easier to work with than West because it stays slightly softer and more flexible for a few days. I have also heard this from the local West Marine store.
For the MAS standard vs MAS low vis, I want to know if it is better to get the standard for fillets or if I can use low vis for both fillets and tape without a lot of hassle If it is feasible to use low vis for both, it would save me the worry of having to buy enough extra of both to not need to worry about running out in the middle of a critical operation. The nearest store I know of is about 200 mi round trip.
On 3/26/2010 11:32 AM, Gene Tehansky wrote:Chris,How long an epoxy stays workable is dependent upon the version of hardener you purchase, fast, slow, extra slow, more so than the brand. Your choice in this depends on how long you want it to be workable and the temperatures you are working in. Any low viscosity epoxy can be made into a non runny fillet material by mixing in the proper fillers such as fumed silica. No comment on the last item.Sincerely,Gene T.On 26 Mar, 2010, at 10:59 AM, wetherillc wrote:Starting to make serious plan to build Payson's Pirogue. Wondering what opinions prevail regarding
1) West vs MAS. My impression is that MAS is more forgiving in that it stays tacky for longer, thus allowing more leisurely pace with multiple layers, i.e. when taping over fillets.
2) MAS standard vs low viscosity. Is it practical to use low vis. for fillets?
3) Has anyone used the procedure for polyurethane outlined by Gavin Atkin in his book Ultrasimple Boatbuilding: PU Masonry adhesive and fiberglass drywall tape?
Thanks
Chris
>I have good things to say about Raka too.
> I'm a huge fan of Raka
>The problem I have had with the 2:1 epoxy is that about once every 100
> I've tried the 1 to 1 ratio epoxies...
batches I mistakenly mix it backwards, 1:2. When that happens I am
faced with a horrible, impossibly sticky mess. After switching to 1:1
ratio, no longer a problem.
Regarding the UV issue, I always use paint. I suspect that a good
exterior varnish would block UV if you want a bright finish.
I'm a huge fan of Raka(http://www.raka.com/epoxy_kits.html)and their 9 gallon kit is $423...
I'm currently building a new rig and spars for "So It Goes" and Raka shipped down glass/epoxy/bits and I had it in hand down here in St Croix two days after we placed the order by phone. Really exceptional service!
I've tried the 1 to 1 ratio epoxies and they seem to be much more sensitive to UV problems and tempeture but then again I'm in the Caribbean so maybe for the frozen north they work finest kind.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.coa
I'm currently building a new rig and spars for "So It Goes" and Raka shipped down glass/epoxy/bits and I had it in hand down here in St Croix two days after we placed the order by phone. Really exceptional service!
I've tried the 1 to 1 ratio epoxies and they seem to be much more sensitive to UV problems and tempeture but then again I'm in the Caribbean so maybe for the frozen north they work finest kind.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.coa
I have seen, on one of the sites where I lurk, statements to the effect that MAS mixed with standard hardener is easier to work with than West because it stays slightly softer and more flexible for a few days. I have also heard this from the local West Marine store.
For the MAS standard vs MAS low vis, I want to know if it is better to get the standard for fillets or if I can use low vis for both fillets and tape without a lot of hassle If it is feasible to use low vis for both, it would save me the worry of having to buy enough extra of both to not need to worry about running out in the middle of a critical operation. The nearest store I know of is about 200 mi round trip.
On 3/26/2010 11:32 AM, Gene Tehansky wrote:Chris,How long an epoxy stays workable is dependent upon the version of hardener you purchase, fast, slow, extra slow, more so than the brand. Your choice in this depends on how long you want it to be workable and the temperatures you are working in. Any low viscosity epoxy can be made into a non runny fillet material by mixing in the proper fillers such as fumed silica. No comment on the last item.Sincerely,Gene T.On 26 Mar, 2010, at 10:59 AM, wetherillc wrote:Starting to make serious plan to build Payson's Pirogue. Wondering what opinions prevail regarding
1) West vs MAS. My impression is that MAS is more forgiving in that it stays tacky for longer, thus allowing more leisurely pace with multiple layers, i.e. when taping over fillets.
2) MAS standard vs low viscosity. Is it practical to use low vis. for fillets?
3) Has anyone used the procedure for polyurethane outlined by Gavin Atkin in his book Ultrasimple Boatbuilding: PU Masonry adhesive and fiberglass drywall tape?
Thanks
Chris
Chris,
How long an epoxy stays workable is dependent upon the version of hardener you purchase, fast, slow, extra slow, more so than the brand. Your choice in this depends on how long you want it to be workable and the temperatures you are working in. Any low viscosity epoxy can be made into a non runny fillet material by mixing in the proper fillers such as fumed silica. No comment on the last item.
Sincerely,
Gene T.
On 26 Mar, 2010, at 10:59 AM, wetherillc wrote:
Starting to make serious plan to build Payson's Pirogue. Wondering what opinions prevail regarding
1) West vs MAS. My impression is that MAS is more forgiving in that it stays tacky for longer, thus allowing more leisurely pace with multiple layers, i.e. when taping over fillets.
2) MAS standard vs low viscosity. Is it practical to use low vis. for fillets?
3) Has anyone used the procedure for polyurethane outlined by Gavin Atkin in his book Ultrasimple Boatbuilding: PU Masonry adhesive and fiberglass drywall tape?
Thanks
Chris
You will get a hundred different opinions about this!
Personally, after some hard lessons learned, I have settled on buying
generic 1:1 epoxy in bulk. I buy 10 gallons at a time on eBay for
about $400. It keeps well in my garage, and I set the bottles on a
low temperature "back ache" heating pad that runs 24/7 to keep it
warm.
I would expect to use about 1 1/2 gallons for a Pirogue, assuming you
are sheathing the plywood inside and out. Having spare epoxy in the
shop is not a bad thing, if you are like me, there is always the next
boat, and the one after that.
The eBay vendor is named "Polymer Products".
http://stores.ebay.com/Polymer-Products-The-Epoxy-Experts
Personally, after some hard lessons learned, I have settled on buying
generic 1:1 epoxy in bulk. I buy 10 gallons at a time on eBay for
about $400. It keeps well in my garage, and I set the bottles on a
low temperature "back ache" heating pad that runs 24/7 to keep it
warm.
I would expect to use about 1 1/2 gallons for a Pirogue, assuming you
are sheathing the plywood inside and out. Having spare epoxy in the
shop is not a bad thing, if you are like me, there is always the next
boat, and the one after that.
The eBay vendor is named "Polymer Products".
http://stores.ebay.com/Polymer-Products-The-Epoxy-Experts
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 7:59 AM, wetherillc <wetherillc@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Starting to make serious plan to build Payson's Pirogue. Wondering what opinions prevail regarding
>
> 1) West vs MAS. My impression is that MAS is more forgiving in that it stays tacky for longer, thus allowing more leisurely pace with multiple layers, i.e. when taping over fillets.
>
> 2) MAS standard vs low viscosity. Is it practical to use low vis. for fillets?
>
> 3) Has anyone used the procedure for polyurethane outlined by Gavin Atkin in his book Ultrasimple Boatbuilding: PU Masonry adhesive and fiberglass drywall tape?
> Thanks
> Chris
Starting to make serious plan to build Payson's Pirogue. Wondering what opinions prevail regarding
1) West vs MAS. My impression is that MAS is more forgiving in that it stays tacky for longer, thus allowing more leisurely pace with multiple layers, i.e. when taping over fillets.
2) MAS standard vs low viscosity. Is it practical to use low vis. for fillets?
3) Has anyone used the procedure for polyurethane outlined by Gavin Atkin in his book Ultrasimple Boatbuilding: PU Masonry adhesive and fiberglass drywall tape?
Thanks
Chris
1) West vs MAS. My impression is that MAS is more forgiving in that it stays tacky for longer, thus allowing more leisurely pace with multiple layers, i.e. when taping over fillets.
2) MAS standard vs low viscosity. Is it practical to use low vis. for fillets?
3) Has anyone used the procedure for polyurethane outlined by Gavin Atkin in his book Ultrasimple Boatbuilding: PU Masonry adhesive and fiberglass drywall tape?
Thanks
Chris