Re: Bolger micro
I was so concerned over rot at this point that I put on 7 coats of epoxy prior to putting in the lead slug.
I think your method is a very good one and one that I would try if I got the urge to build another. the boat will definately sit at a comfortable list to work at a leisurely pace.
This does not make you less manly IMHO.
David
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> I probably shouldn't admit this again in the company of real men, but I built my keel thisaway: Put the boat on its side on the grass, glued and fastened the under-side keel sheathing and carefully supported at 90 degrees to the bottom. Got my lead mailed to me at astonishingly cheap postal rates in 46 pound ingots 1.5 inches thick. Bandsawed them as necessary to fit into the shape, planed them a trifle where too thick, laid them in a bed of thickened epoxy, filled between them and over them and slapped on the other side of sheathing. I used oukoume slightly under half-inch thinking the thing could probably use the extra stiffness.
>
> You fellows who slipped a poured ballast slug up into the slot: Did you prefinish the insides of the sheathing? Did you do anything to fill any space? Water will fill it, of course; but mightn't there be a little danger of rot? Does the lead in the vicinity prevent rot in near-adjacent wood?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dnjost
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:45 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger micro
>
>
>
>
> When I built my Micro, I got hurt pretty badly by the lead falling on my shoulder as I was trying to lift it into position using the method described of putting it up against one sheathed side. I would i. Once the lead is a little into the cavity, it won't fall out and hurt you and the bracing could be removed to allow for finishing the job. At least you could take your time without fear of danger.
>
> At this point, I believe the boat is lighter than the lead casting and thus easier to move. Three people could lift the boat and drop it onto the propped keel. My two cents, but based on a shoulder that has added to my golf handicap (at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.)
>
> David Jost
>
I did the Micro keel by putting on the sides, raising the boat, and using a floor jack to raise the casting. I had given a first coat of epoxy to the sides before attaching them. I liberally applied thickened epoxy right before jacking up the keel. IIRC I put 6 layers of glass as a root fillet and added the same number of layers over the very bottom of the keel for grounding protection.
Myles J. Swift
voice line 541-895-3347
President, Computer Assistance Inc.
Helping independent auto and truck
repair businesses since 1978
Anyway, I think the entire deadwood, lead casting, and ply sides were prepared as a sub-assembly, and when complete, jacked up into position under the boat with the plywood lips fitting neatly over the external keel batten - all epoxied and fastened according to the specs in the key. I do not recall any problems with that part. In fact, the only tricky bit was ensuring that the keel casting remained straight and true during the process of driving nails (silicon bronze) into the lead.
I'm with Bruce - just follow the key.
Ross Lillistone
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> I probably shouldn't admit this again in the company of real men, but I built my keel thisaway: Put the boat on its side on the grass, glued and fastened the under-side keel sheathing and carefully supported at 90 degrees to the bottom. Got my lead mailed to me at astonishingly cheap postal rates in 46 pound ingots 1.5 inches thick. Bandsawed them as necessary to fit into the shape, planed them a trifle where too thick, laid them in a bed of thickened epoxy, filled between them and over them and slapped on the other side of sheathing. I used oukoume slightly under half-inch thinking the thing could probably use the extra stiffness.
>
> You fellows who slipped a poured ballast slug up into the slot: Did you prefinish the insides of the sheathing? Did you do anything to fill any space? Water will fill it, of course; but mightn't there be a little danger of rot? Does the lead in the vicinity prevent rot in near-adjacent wood?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dnjost
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:45 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger micro
>
>
>
>
> When I built my Micro, I got hurt pretty badly by the lead falling on my shoulder as I was trying to lift it into position using the method described of putting it up against one sheathed side. I would i. Once the lead is a little into the cavity, it won't fall out and hurt you and the bracing could be removed to allow for finishing the job. At least you could take your time without fear of danger.
>
> At this point, I believe the boat is lighter than the lead casting and thus easier to move. Three people could lift the boat and drop it onto the propped keel. My two cents, but based on a shoulder that has added to my golf handicap (at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.)
>
> David Jost
>
----- Original Message -----From:dnjostSent:Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:45 PMSubject:[bolger] Re: Bolger micro
When I built my Micro, I got hurt pretty badly by the lead falling on my shoulder as I was trying to lift it into position using the method described of putting it up against one sheathed side. I would i. Once the lead is a little into the cavity, it won't fall out and hurt you and the bracing could be removed to allow for finishing the job. At least you could take your time without fear of danger.
At this point, I believe the boat is lighter than the lead casting and thus easier to move. Three people could lift the boat and drop it onto the propped keel. My two cents, but based on a shoulder that has added to my golf handicap (at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.)
David Jost
> When I built my Micro, I got hurt pretty badly by the lead falling ..Ouch David, I hope you keep healing. I ditto the serious safety risk.
I found it astonishing how unwieldy a curvy slab of cast dense metal
weighing 420 pound can be! While I didn't hurt myself, I did drop the
casting at least once while trying to maneuver it around my shop.
Give it big respect for the damage that can do to your body.
At this point, I believe the boat is lighter than the lead casting and thus easier to move. Three people could lift the boat and drop it onto the propped keel. My two cents, but based on a shoulder that has added to my golf handicap (at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.)
David Jost
Sorry Gene, I didn't mean to come across so terse. Generally when the
building key is ambiguous about timing of the steps, it means that the
timing of the steps is up to the builder's choice.
(My copy of the builder's key is out of reach at this moment, so I am
going from memory now.)
The sequence I used, and I suspect others have too, is to install the
batten on the bottom of the hull using screws, glue and and bolts.
Then install the deadwood, the lead, the side sheathing, followed by
the ring shank nails which sandwiches and holds the lead casting in
place.
Bolger doesn't call for glue between the side sheathing and the lead,
nor does he call for fiber glass fillets between the fin sheathing and
the hull. While these could be installed, I think he would have said
that they are unneeded.
Handling the 420lbs chunk of lead can be challenging. In my case, I
stood it on edge in a makeshift "dolly/truck" which was improvised
from a piece of 3/4" plywood with bracing to keep the lead vertical.
I then rolled this truck around on the shop floor using pipes as
rollers. This allowed precision maneuvering of the lead casting into
position beneath the hull which was jacked up and securely supported
in place because it is a serious safety concern when working
underneath heavy things which might fall and hurt you.
Also, in my experience it was beneficial to not install the lead and
fin keel until late in the process because this allows the finish work
in the cabin to be done at the level of the shop floor. If you
install the fin keel earlier, it raises the hull up off the shop
floor, requiring many trips up and down to access the cabin for the
finish work.
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Gene Tehansky
<goldranger02- boats@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Bruce,
>
> Either I'm reading it wrong or the plans I got are missing something. It explains what the keel should be made of, batton, deadwood, lead, side sheathing, 1 inch ring nails, bolts, and screws, but it doesn't give a specific order of placement of all of these parts. Not the way I read it. I got the plans for the Micro Navigator plus Updated Micro plus Conventional Micro. There is only a step by step writeup for the Conventional Micro. No additions for the updated boats. Starting from scratch, there are a lot of those steps that need to be scratched out. No point on building a Micro then cutting it up to build the Navigator so I have had to judge on my own what steps to leave out. The keel isn't one of those but my list of steps is no longer a religious text that must be followed. So your comment, although understood and appreciated for its value, doesn't quite apply as far as I can see. I guess I'll just go back and dig out old photos of past builds and pick between them.
> Very Sincerely,
> Gene T.
> On 13 Apr, 2010, at 1:14 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> > Any comments?
>
> Do it exactly per the PCB plans and building key.
building key is ambiguous about timing of the steps, it means that the
timing of the steps is up to the builder's choice.
(My copy of the builder's key is out of reach at this moment, so I am
going from memory now.)
The sequence I used, and I suspect others have too, is to install the
batten on the bottom of the hull using screws, glue and and bolts.
Then install the deadwood, the lead, the side sheathing, followed by
the ring shank nails which sandwiches and holds the lead casting in
place.
Bolger doesn't call for glue between the side sheathing and the lead,
nor does he call for fiber glass fillets between the fin sheathing and
the hull. While these could be installed, I think he would have said
that they are unneeded.
Handling the 420lbs chunk of lead can be challenging. In my case, I
stood it on edge in a makeshift "dolly/truck" which was improvised
from a piece of 3/4" plywood with bracing to keep the lead vertical.
I then rolled this truck around on the shop floor using pipes as
rollers. This allowed precision maneuvering of the lead casting into
position beneath the hull which was jacked up and securely supported
in place because it is a serious safety concern when working
underneath heavy things which might fall and hurt you.
Also, in my experience it was beneficial to not install the lead and
fin keel until late in the process because this allows the finish work
in the cabin to be done at the level of the shop floor. If you
install the fin keel earlier, it raises the hull up off the shop
floor, requiring many trips up and down to access the cabin for the
finish work.
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Gene Tehansky
<goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Bruce,
>
> Either I'm reading it wrong or the plans I got are missing something. It explains what the keel should be made of, batton, deadwood, lead, side sheathing, 1 inch ring nails, bolts, and screws, but it doesn't give a specific order of placement of all of these parts. Not the way I read it. I got the plans for the Micro Navigator plus Updated Micro plus Conventional Micro. There is only a step by step writeup for the Conventional Micro. No additions for the updated boats. Starting from scratch, there are a lot of those steps that need to be scratched out. No point on building a Micro then cutting it up to build the Navigator so I have had to judge on my own what steps to leave out. The keel isn't one of those but my list of steps is no longer a religious text that must be followed. So your comment, although understood and appreciated for its value, doesn't quite apply as far as I can see. I guess I'll just go back and dig out old photos of past builds and pick between them.
> Very Sincerely,
> Gene T.
> On 13 Apr, 2010, at 1:14 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> > Any comments?
>
> Do it exactly per the PCB plans and building key.
> Any comments?
Do it exactly per the PCB plans and building key.
> Any comments?Do it exactly per the PCB plans and building key.
Mason,
What I saw was a taped fillet between the plywood keel overlay and the hull bottom, after the keel and plywood sheathing were attached to the batten. It had no direct contact to the batten or lead keel, and was intended to clean up the joint between the ply overlay and the hull bottom. This was back in the early days of Micro's. Back when several guys were building quick and dirty hulls in less than 100 hours. There was even one experienced builder who lived near Mr. LaRowe that intended to build a series of bare hulls with under 50 hours per....
Rick
From: mason smith <goodboat@frontierne t.net>
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 5:19:14 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Bolger microRod -- my two cents: I dont think I'd use the fiberglass tape either side of the shoe-keel. That would come between the plywood sides of the keel and the batten, to no purpose. As for strength against lateral movement, it has always seemed to me that the Micro keel gets enormous resistance to lateral working from the rocker of the bottom. It cannot move sideways without the deep middle part of the keel sides tearing away from the batten in sheer, without buckling and bending, etc. Fear not. Mason----- Original Message -----From: rodcahill@y7mail. comSent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:44 PMSubject: [bolger] Bolger microHi All,
Progressing with my Micro. Just about to secure the keel batton on bottom of boat. I have 7 evenly spaced 1/4 inch galvanised bolts with 2 washers each holding the 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 baton. This will also be glued and held on with self tapping screws from the inside of hull every 6 inches or so. I will also put a length of fibreglass ribon expoxied to each side of baton.
My question is: This doesn't seem a lot to be holding the weight of the lead keel? Especially any sideways movement?
Thanks,
Rod
Canberra
Australia
What I saw was a taped fillet between the plywood keel overlay and the hull bottom, after the keel and plywood sheathing were attached to the batten. It had no direct contact to the batten or lead keel, and was intended to clean up the joint between the ply overlay and the hull bottom. This was back in the early days of Micro's. Back when several guys were building quick and dirty hulls in less than 100 hours. There was even one experienced builder who lived near Mr. LaRowe that intended to build a series of bare hulls with under 50 hours per....
Rick
From:mason smith <goodboat@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Tue, April 13, 2010 5:19:14 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Bolger micro
----- Original Message -----From:rodcahill@...Sent:Monday, April 12, 2010 10:44 PMSubject:[bolger] Bolger microHi All,
Progressing with my Micro. Just about to secure the keel batton on bottom of boat. I have 7 evenly spaced 1/4 inch galvanised bolts with 2 washers each holding the 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 baton. This will also be glued and held on with self tapping screws from the inside of hull every 6 inches or so. I will also put a length of fibreglass ribon expoxied to each side of baton.
My question is: This doesn't seem a lot to be holding the weight of the lead keel? Especially any sideways movement?
Thanks,
Rod
Canberra
Australia
In addition to what Gene stated about the strength gain from the rocker, the two micro's I've seen in person had nice large radius, heavily glass taped fillets along both sides of the keel sheathing to hull bottom. And both seemed bulletproof.
Rick
From: Gene Tehansky <goldranger02- boats@yahoo. com>
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, April 12, 2010 8:19:00 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Bolger micro
Rod,I'm a little past that point on my build. When considering the strength of this attachment, remember that the bottom is not flat. The rocker of the boat adds a great deal of strength to the keel batton in a lateral direction. The extreme ends of the batton are at a significant angle to the lateral twist of the keel (approaching vertical). For the keel to lean to one side or the other these extreme ends need to move from side to side, not just lean. It would take a great deal of force to make this happen. Another description: the ends of the keel are equivalent to the keel being imbeded into the boat by almost a foot. Well, I don't like any of these descriptions but I think you get the idea that the curve adds strength because the keel can't fold along the attaching line. If it were flat then this could be a fold line or weak area. I have five 3/8 inch bolts holding mine on and will add screws when I flip the boat. Mine is a Micro Navigator, or it will be.Sincerely,Gene T.Hi All,
Progressing with my Micro. Just about to secure the keel batton on bottom of boat. I have 7 evenly spaced 1/4 inch galvanised bolts with 2 washers each holding the 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 baton. This will also be glued and held on with self tapping screws from the inside of hull every 6 inches or so. I will also put a length of fibreglass ribon expoxied to each side of baton.
My question is: This doesn't seem a lot to be holding the weight of the lead keel? Especially any sideways movement?
Thanks,
Rod
Canberra
Australia
> My question is: This doesn't seem a lot to be holding the weight of the lead keel? Especially any sideways movement?It works out to about 50 pounds per bolt, plus the curve of the bottom
gives triangulation to the resistance against sidways movement. That
is plenty strong!
For what it is worth, with my Micro, one of the through bolts was a
source of a water leak. I applied some fiberglass tape and epoxy from
the inside which stopped the leak.
----- Original Message -----From:rodcahill@...Sent:Monday, April 12, 2010 10:44 PMSubject:[bolger] Bolger microHi All,
Progressing with my Micro. Just about to secure the keel batton on bottom of boat. I have 7 evenly spaced 1/4 inch galvanised bolts with 2 washers each holding the 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 baton. This will also be glued and held on with self tapping screws from the inside of hull every 6 inches or so. I will also put a length of fibreglass ribon expoxied to each side of baton.
My question is: This doesn't seem a lot to be holding the weight of the lead keel? Especially any sideways movement?
Thanks,
Rod
Canberra
Australia
When I built my Micro (1995) I added a 4"x4" block of 3/4" plywood on the inside where each through-bolt passed. This added some strength to the hull at those stress points. I never had any trouble with the keel. It ended up being surprisingly strong.--- OnMon, 4/12/10, rodcahill@...<rodcahill@...>wrote: |
Rick
From:Gene Tehansky <goldranger02-boats@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Mon, April 12, 2010 8:19:00 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Bolger micro
Rod,
On 12 Apr, 2010, at 10:44 PM,rodcahill@...wrote:Hi All,
Progressing with my Micro. Just about to secure the keel batton on bottom of boat. I have 7 evenly spaced 1/4 inch galvanised bolts with 2 washers each holding the 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 baton. This will also be glued and held on with self tapping screws from the inside of hull every 6 inches or so. I will also put a length of fibreglass ribon expoxied to each side of baton.
My question is: This doesn't seem a lot to be holding the weight of the lead keel? Especially any sideways movement?
Thanks,
Rod
Canberra
Australia
Hi All,
Progressing with my Micro. Just about to secure the keel batton on bottom of boat. I have 7 evenly spaced 1/4 inch galvanised bolts with 2 washers each holding the 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 baton. This will also be glued and held on with self tapping screws from the inside of hull every 6 inches or so. I will also put a length of fibreglass ribon expoxied to each side of baton.
My question is: This doesn't seem a lot to be holding the weight of the lead keel? Especially any sideways movement?
Thanks,
Rod
Canberra
Australia
Progressing with my Micro. Just about to secure the keel batton on bottom of boat. I have 7 evenly spaced 1/4 inch galvanised bolts with 2 washers each holding the 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 baton. This will also be glued and held on with self tapping screws from the inside of hull every 6 inches or so. I will also put a length of fibreglass ribon expoxied to each side of baton.
My question is: This doesn't seem a lot to be holding the weight of the lead keel? Especially any sideways movement?
Thanks,
Rod
Canberra
Australia