Re: Air tank rot

Logic may say that but in the real world observation has showen it not to be the case. In the case of plywood over a planked boat even with the best boat building ply it is asking for problems. Simple fact a boat stored upside down on saw horses with plenty of cerculation can get rot from condensation. Talk to any home builder and they will tell you designers and engeneers are often wrong. Same is true of boat designers if they don't build and use what they design if you ask any one that fixes them. Rot needs air and moisture to grow. The only thing that works is to eliminate one or the other. On small sealed air chambers the exspantion and contraction of the air inside is within the limets of the flex of the material strength to not be a problem. With large chambers deck plates are a good idea. This is why I support sealing all inside surfaces with epoxy and poor foam fill small or large chambers if not useing deck plates that are removed when stored. It prevents rot rather then providing for it.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> A hole on the low side allows liqid water to drain out of the chamber, but a hole higher up won't.
>
> Many PCB designs show chambers containing blocks of foam fitted and chocked up such that they aren't in contact with the chamber panels - thus allowing the panels better drying. Where there is a chamber bulkhead shown there are always drainage holes low down.
>
> A similar sized chamber opening presented anywhere to the same body of outside air allows the same drying. The water vapour difusion gradient outside the holes is the same.
>
> The overlapping difusion gradient shells above very widely spaced small holes in a chamber surface can allow similar difusion to that of a free water surface, as per plant leaves. With this in mind, perhaps a few small holes in an air chamber bulkhead may have possibilities... When the boat is in use on the water, all but one on the bottom side corner are plugged with those cheap screw-in bungs. When stored, all bungs are removed and the boat positioned with one of the holes low down.
>
> Graeme

A hole on the low side allows liqid water to drain out of the chamber, but a hole higher up won't.

Many PCB designs show chambers containing blocks of foam fitted and chocked up such that they aren't in contact with the chamber panels - thus allowing the panels better drying. Where there is a chamber bulkhead shown there are always drainage holes low down.

A similar sized chamber opening presented anywhere to the same body of outside air allows the same drying. The water vapour difusion gradient outside the holes is the same.

The overlapping difusion gradient shells above very widely spaced small holes in a chamber surface can allow similar difusion to that of a free water surface, as per plant leaves. With this in mind, perhaps a few small holes in an air chamber bulkhead may have possibilities... When the boat is in use on the water, all but one on the bottom side corner are plugged with those cheap screw-in bungs. When stored, all bungs are removed and the boat positioned with one of the holes low down.

Graeme

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon n Wanda" <windyjon@...> wrote:
>
> The reason for storeing a open boat on its side or end is so moisture dose not get traped in it leading to condensation and rot. The same is true of a air tank. The hole system only works if at the top on the side otherwise you have a space above the hole that dries slow alowing condensation. Tanks no mater what should be seale with epoxy on all surfaces so the wood has no chance to soak up water of moisture. Deck plates on the top would be second choice to foam filled. Leave them open when in dry storage.
>
> Jon
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > But what are the facts about leaving mine as is? I dimly recall
> > > someone's idea that a pair of small holes high and low in the
> > > bulkheads would promote circulation, yet still require so long for
> > > the tank to fill that the flotation isn't ruined. Is that right?
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > in the old Instant BoatBuilder newsletter, PCB agreed with one Surf builder's thinking re placing a single hole at floor level and against the side of the otherwise sealed, empty end chambers.
> >
> > With flooded cockpit, or knocked over on the hole side, the hole is lower than water level so little air can get out and little water get in. Rolled the other way, the whole remains above water level so little water can be splashed into the chamber that way. Either way there's time to right the boat and bail out. Upright again, any chamber water will drain through the bulkhead hole, especially when the boat heels to that side. I'd say holes in both end bulkheads should be on the same side so that the boat stored with a slight heel that way will fully drain, and the chambers can dry right out.
> >
> > With out looking it up, my recollection is that PCB allowed that this might well be a solution for the Surf as were ideas about foam, and plates.
> >
> > Is there enough air circulation and time for raw wood inside the chamber to air dry through a small (1"+) hole when the boat is stored between dunkings? Might not an athwartships elongated hole, or short slot be better too?
> >
> > Graeme
> >
>

The reason for storeing a open boat on its side or end is so moisture dose not get traped in it leading to condensation and rot. The same is true of a air tank. The hole system only works if at the top on the side otherwise you have a space above the hole that dries slow alowing condensation. Tanks no mater what should be seale with epoxy on all surfaces so the wood has no chance to soak up water of moisture. Deck plates on the top would be second choice to foam filled. Leave them open when in dry storage.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > But what are the facts about leaving mine as is? I dimly recall
> > someone's idea that a pair of small holes high and low in the
> > bulkheads would promote circulation, yet still require so long for
> > the tank to fill that the flotation isn't ruined. Is that right?
>
>
>
> Mark,
>
> in the old Instant BoatBuilder newsletter, PCB agreed with one Surf builder's thinking re placing a single hole at floor level and against the side of the otherwise sealed, empty end chambers.
>
> With flooded cockpit, or knocked over on the hole side, the hole is lower than water level so little air can get out and little water get in. Rolled the other way, the whole remains above water level so little water can be splashed into the chamber that way. Either way there's time to right the boat and bail out. Upright again, any chamber water will drain through the bulkhead hole, especially when the boat heels to that side. I'd say holes in both end bulkheads should be on the same side so that the boat stored with a slight heel that way will fully drain, and the chambers can dry right out.
>
> With out looking it up, my recollection is that PCB allowed that this might well be a solution for the Surf as were ideas about foam, and plates.
>
> Is there enough air circulation and time for raw wood inside the chamber to air dry through a small (1"+) hole when the boat is stored between dunkings? Might not an athwartships elongated hole, or short slot be better too?
>
> Graeme
>

Sort of in line with Graeme's comments about drying out  the "sealed" flotation chamber .. I store my small boats upside down. With that in mind I have a limber hole at the top of the deck frames so that the last little bit of water can dribble out. The sun and time finishes the drying process for me. Works fine.
 
Dennis
 

---

To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: graeme19121984@...
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 21:59:44 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: Air tank rot

 

> But what are the facts about leaving mine as is? I dimly recall
> someone's idea that a pair of small holes high and low in the
> bulkheads would promote circulation, yet still require so long for
> the tank to fill that the flotation isn't ruined. Is that right?

Mark,

in the old Instant BoatBuilder newsletter, PCB agreed with one Surf builder's thinking re placing a single hole at floor level and against the side of the otherwise sealed, empty end chambers.

With flooded cockpit, or knocked over on the hole side, the hole is lower than water level so little air can get out and little water get in. Rolled the other way, the whole remains above water level so little water can be splashed into the chamber that way. Either way there's time to right the boat and bail out. Upright again, any chamber water will drain through the bulkhead hole, especially when the boat heels to that side. I'd say holes in both end bulkheads should be on the same side so that the boat stored with a slight heel that way will fully drain, and the chambers can dry right out.

With out looking it up, my recollection is that PCB allowed that this might well be a solution for the Surf as were ideas about foam, and plates.

Is there enough air circulation and time for raw wood inside the chamber to air dry through a small (1"+) hole when the boat is stored between dunkings? Might not an athwartships elongated hole, or short slot be better too?

Graeme

You're welcome but it is not all that obvious -- can't remember where I learned about it. Certainly can't say I learned it the hard way...

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> With no flair for the obvious, I didn't realize this. Thank you.
>
>
> On May 21, 2010, at 11:28 PM, BrianA wrote:
> > snip
> >
> > I don't think it is in principle possible to keep it air tight
> > because the first time you left the boat out in the sun the air
> > would expand enough to find or create holes, and the air contracts
> > when the boat cools, and this draws moisture in. Cartopping it up
> > and down in elevation has the same effect.
> >
> >
>

Another problem is the one that creates blisters in fiberglass. Moisture migrates into voids and then does not migrate out it then condenses and builds up.

All weights matter for a kayak. Foam is light weight but not no weight. Stack up an amount of foam that will fill a void. Put it on a balance scale with whatever kind of hatch would provide access to an air chamber. Which weighs more? Likely the foam and you do not have the option of using the void for storage of emergency supplies or other. Building a raised ring with a lip will allow a waterproof cloth cover to be held on by heavy elastic. That may be the lightest solution. Remember it is not a hull. It is just to keep water out until the boat can be righted. A little seepage is tolerable. If I wanted to use foam I would use only the amount of epoxy glass I would cover wood with and fill the space within the chamber created with foam. The foam is structural. No need to have wood around it.
Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> With no flair for the obvious, I didn't realize this. Thank you.
>
>
> On May 21, 2010, at 11:28 PM, BrianA wrote:
> > snip
> >
> > I don't think it is in principle possible to keep it air tight
> > because the first time you left the boat out in the sun the air
> > would expand enough to find or create holes, and the air contracts
> > when the boat cools, and this draws moisture in. Cartopping it up
> > and down in elevation has the same effect.
> >
> >
>

With no flair for the obvious, I didn't realize this. Thank you.

On May 21, 2010, at 11:28 PM, BrianA wrote:
> snip
>
> I don't think it is in principle possible to keep it air tight
> because the first time you left the boat out in the sun the air
> would expand enough to find or create holes, and the air contracts
> when the boat cools, and this draws moisture in. Cartopping it up
> and down in elevation has the same effect.
>
>

Mark, the duffel bag works fine for me, as long as one keeps it light. But while I am sure you would have no trouble making an air tight chamber, I don't think it is in principle possible to keep it air tight because the first time you left the boat out in the sun the air would expand enough to find or create holes, and the air contracts when the boat cools, and this draws moisture in. Cartopping it up and down in elevation has the same effect.

The poured foam works for me too, but I have no experience one way or the other with it. I think a lot of it depends on where you live and the ambient humidity, the quality of the ply, coatings etc. There is just so much variation in people's experiences with this kind of thing.

But my bias is always to have some kind of access to all parts of the boat and also secure dry storage space.

Cheers, Brian

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> I'm quite with you there, Jon. Many won't agree with us, but I've got
> the ancient, rot free boat to prove it's okay to me.
>
> Plans for the Minimum Kayak show the ends filled solid. For this
> boat, even @ only 2lb/cu. ft. it adds up. Portaging, every pound
> makes itself known.
>
> Frankly, I trust my building enough to not ever expect there'll be
> any moisture getting into those tanks while poking around for an
> afternoon. ( might be my first mistake... ) So the only moisture
> available seems to be in the air that's already in there. That can't
> be much but must be what people generally worry about.
>
>
> Brian: Did you like the duffle bag strapped to the after deck?
> Diamond has a chest built on it. I'd thought of maybe adding
> something like that sometime. Or just a low tray or cut down milk
> crate to carry my gumboots out of the cockpit.
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Diamond%20%23615/
>
> Can't wait for slightly better weather to give it a try! Memo to
> self: Send in $25 a la Peero to cover the license.
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> On May 21, 2010, at 7:35 PM, Jon n Wanda wrote:
>
> > If you are going to seal it shout there are two things you should
> > do. First seal ply with three thin not thinned coats of epoxy.
> > Second fill with 2# pour flotation foam. Useing other things to
> > allow air cerculation can lead to condensation and rot. Solid foam
> > removes all air and its cerculation one of the requierments for rot
> > to start. The foam will also help renforce the area.
> >
> > Jon
> >
>

I'm quite with you there, Jon. Many won't agree with us, but I've got
the ancient, rot free boat to prove it's okay to me.

Plans for the Minimum Kayak show the ends filled solid. For this
boat, even @ only 2lb/cu. ft. it adds up. Portaging, every pound
makes itself known.

Frankly, I trust my building enough to not ever expect there'll be
any moisture getting into those tanks while poking around for an
afternoon. ( might be my first mistake... ) So the only moisture
available seems to be in the air that's already in there. That can't
be much but must be what people generally worry about.


Brian: Did you like the duffle bag strapped to the after deck?
Diamond has a chest built on it. I'd thought of maybe adding
something like that sometime. Or just a low tray or cut down milk
crate to carry my gumboots out of the cockpit.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Diamond%20%23615/

Can't wait for slightly better weather to give it a try! Memo to
self: Send in $25 a la Peero to cover the license.
Mark

On May 21, 2010, at 7:35 PM, Jon n Wanda wrote:

> If you are going to seal it shout there are two things you should
> do. First seal ply with three thin not thinned coats of epoxy.
> Second fill with 2# pour flotation foam. Useing other things to
> allow air cerculation can lead to condensation and rot. Solid foam
> removes all air and its cerculation one of the requierments for rot
> to start. The foam will also help renforce the area.
>
> Jon
>

If you are going to seal it shout there are two things you should do. First seal ply with three thin not thinned coats of epoxy. Second fill with 2# pour flotation foam. Useing other things to allow air cerculation can lead to condensation and rot. Solid foam removes all air and its cerculation one of the requierments for rot to start. The foam will also help renforce the area.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss <jrweiss98155@...> wrote:
>
> Depending on the size and shape of the void, some combination of
> ping-pong balls, plastic bottles/jugs of various sizes, and air bags may
> work.
>
> Christopher Meeker wrote:
> >
> > In the past I have used 1 gallon and half gallon plastic milk jugs with
> > the tops glued on in the bow and the stern and left a couple of 1 inch
> > holes in the bulkheads for drainage if needed and air circulation. Not a
> > pretty way to do it but the plastic milk jugs add pure air boyancy with
> > hardly any extra weight. It's even lighter than blow-in expanding foam.
> > Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Cheers.
>

Depending on the size and shape of the void, some combination of
ping-pong balls, plastic bottles/jugs of various sizes, and air bags may
work.

Christopher Meeker wrote:

>
> In the past I have used 1 gallon and half gallon plastic milk jugs with
> the tops glued on in the bow and the stern and left a couple of 1 inch
> holes in the bulkheads for drainage if needed and air circulation. Not a
> pretty way to do it but the plastic milk jugs add pure air boyancy with
> hardly any extra weight. It's even lighter than blow-in expanding foam.
> Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Cheers.

In the past I have used 1 gallon and half gallon plastic milk jugs with the tops glued on in the bow and the stern and left a couple of 1 inch holes in the bulkheads for drainage if needed and air circulation. Not a pretty way to do it but the plastic milk jugs add pure air boyancy with hardly any extra weight. It's even lighter than blow-in expanding foam. Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Cheers.

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Mark Albanese<marka97203@...>wrote:

You two are right on this. In general I like using foam but wanted to
save the weight. It's exactly 45 pounds now. 5-10 more would be a
hardship.

The boat is here. I'm not building the sailing version, taking Phil
Bolger's admonition against it. Just the main hull. The bottom
profile seems preferable to the Minimum Kayak, which seems more a
whitewater boat, and the low sides better adapted to paddling than
the Peero. . Also as a lifelong Anhinga fan I wanted to try the very
deep stern. I did give it the wedge shaped trunk front off the
instant boat, thinking that's what he would have done for a paddle
only craft.

There aren't any finished plans. It's scaled from the magazine.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Cruising%20Canoe/

All painted now.

Thanks to all,
Mark

On May 21, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Dennis Mcfadden wrote:

> I'm in agreement with Brian on this. Sea kayaks use this approach
> all the time and mine at least seem to last for decades. They are
> ply / epoxy construction. I am curious about the Cruising Canoe.
> Google shows many by that name. Could you give us a glimpse of it
> or where to find the plan. Thanks,
>
> Dennis

--
Sleep is for the weak.

You two are right on this. In general I like using foam but wanted to
save the weight. It's exactly 45 pounds now. 5-10 more would be a
hardship.

The boat is here. I'm not building the sailing version, taking Phil
Bolger's admonition against it. Just the main hull. The bottom
profile seems preferable to the Minimum Kayak, which seems more a
whitewater boat, and the low sides better adapted to paddling than
the Peero. . Also as a lifelong Anhinga fan I wanted to try the very
deep stern. I did give it the wedge shaped trunk front off the
instant boat, thinking that's what he would have done for a paddle
only craft.

There aren't any finished plans. It's scaled from the magazine.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Cruising%20Canoe/

All painted now.

Thanks to all,
Mark

On May 21, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Dennis Mcfadden wrote:

> I'm in agreement with Brian on this. Sea kayaks use this approach
> all the time and mine at least seem to last for decades. They are
> ply / epoxy construction. I am curious about the Cruising Canoe.
> Google shows many by that name. Could you give us a glimpse of it
> or where to find the plan. Thanks,
>
> Dennis

I'm in agreement with Brian on this. Sea kayaks use this approach all the time and mine at least seem to last for decades. They are ply / epoxy construction. I am curious about the Cruising Canoe. Google shows many by that name. Could you give us a glimpse of it or where to find the plan. Thanks,
 
Dennis 

---

To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: bawrytr@...
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 19:51:38 +0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: Air tank rot

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "BrianA" <bawrytr@...> wrote:

>
> I would plop down the $20 for a couple of nice deck plates from Duckworks BBS -- they are plenty tight enough to ensure flotation, and can be left open during storage to minimize condensation and allow you to clean and paint etc inside the chambers. A lot of people argue against storing stuff in floatation chambers, but I have always figured that 100 feet of 6mm rope, spare clothes, first aid kit, maybe a few simple tools and/or material to patch the boat, etc (as opposed to a month's supply of canned goods or six spare anchors) won't weigh enough to make much of a difference in the floatation but could make a lot of difference in other circumstances, and having someplace secure, dry and ship shape to keep the stuff is a good safety plan in itself.
>
> Cheers, Brian
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@> wrote:
> >
> > Just about finished with my little Cruising Canoe, I wonder if I
> > haven't made a mistake leading to its very short life.
> >
> > The buoyancy tanks for and aft are pretty well glued around the
> > bulkheads, with no hatches or vents to make sure she's able to float
> > with the cockpit full of water as intended. Though the ply is water
> > sealed inside, now I'm concerned about rot.
> >
> > This earlier message from Graeme reminds that sometimes the gods kill
> > us for their sport.
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/57333
> >
> > But what are the facts about leaving mine as is? I dimly recall
> > someone's idea that a pair of small holes high and low in the
> > bulkheads would promote circulation, yet still require so long for
> > the tank to fill that the flotation isn't ruined. Is that right?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mark
> >
>

If the additional weight would not be a problem, have you considered filling those flotation tanks with foam?  Then the tanks need not be water tight.

I would plop down the $20 for a couple of nice deck plates from Duckworks BBS -- they are plenty tight enough to ensure flotation, and can be left open during storage to minimize condensation and allow you to clean and paint etc inside the chambers. A lot of people argue against storing stuff in floatation chambers, but I have always figured that 100 feet of 6mm rope, spare clothes, first aid kit, maybe a few simple tools and/or material to patch the boat, etc (as opposed to a month's supply of canned goods or six spare anchors) won't weigh enough to make much of a difference in the floatation but could make a lot of difference in other circumstances, and having someplace secure, dry and ship shape to keep the stuff is a good safety plan in itself.

Cheers, Brian

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> Just about finished with my little Cruising Canoe, I wonder if I
> haven't made a mistake leading to its very short life.
>
> The buoyancy tanks for and aft are pretty well glued around the
> bulkheads, with no hatches or vents to make sure she's able to float
> with the cockpit full of water as intended. Though the ply is water
> sealed inside, now I'm concerned about rot.
>
> This earlier message from Graeme reminds that sometimes the gods kill
> us for their sport.
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/57333
>
> But what are the facts about leaving mine as is? I dimly recall
> someone's idea that a pair of small holes high and low in the
> bulkheads would promote circulation, yet still require so long for
> the tank to fill that the flotation isn't ruined. Is that right?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>

Just about finished with my little Cruising Canoe, I wonder if I
haven't made a mistake leading to its very short life.

The buoyancy tanks for and aft are pretty well glued around the
bulkheads, with no hatches or vents to make sure she's able to float
with the cockpit full of water as intended. Though the ply is water
sealed inside, now I'm concerned about rot.

This earlier message from Graeme reminds that sometimes the gods kill
us for their sport.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/57333

But what are the facts about leaving mine as is? I dimly recall
someone's idea that a pair of small holes high and low in the
bulkheads would promote circulation, yet still require so long for
the tank to fill that the flotation isn't ruined. Is that right?

Thanks,
Mark

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Ron Magen <quahaug@...> wrote:

> Phil's  mind followed it's own course.

Dealing with PCB was more like seeking inspiration from an artist, as opposed to hiring a technician.

When I hear the Robert Hunter lyrics about a traveling story-teller/prophet fromLady With a Fan, I think of Phil Bolger's genius:

♫
Let my inspiration flow in token rhyme, suggesting rhythm,
That will not forsake you, till my tale is told and done.
...the lady fairly leapt at him.
That's how it stands today.
You decide if he was wise.
The story teller makes no choice.
Soon you will not hear his voice.
His job is to shed light, and not to master.
Since the end is never told, we pay the teller off in gold,
In hopes he will return, but he cannot be bought or sold
♫

First . . . Phil was a 'strange duck' . . . and neither he, nor I, feel any
reason to explain this. His MIND {and mine to an extent} follow it's own
course. While working on one project {or solution to a problem} a question
comes up {or a 'sub-problem'} and the mind 'tacks away' to research the
question, or solve the problem. Sometimes this 'distraction' is momentary .
. . in other cases it takes on a life of it's own. At least that is what
happens in MY case - from empirical observation it seem like Phil's mind
worked similarly; Susanne would have have to 'confirm or deny'.

Second . . . Even when Phil was in the best of health he was NOT 'Main
Street Commercial Business & Profit' orientated {again Susanne is the
authority here}. Nor did he have 'partners' or 'associates' or an 'office
staff' to handle the day-to-day internal affairs & correspondence that the
typical business requires.

Third . . .While I have communicated with Phil a few times, I never bought
CUSTOM plans from him. ALL my plans were 'Stock' and almost all came from
'Dynamite' Payson. From what I 'hear' on this Forum - almost all the
'forgotten' requests seem to be for these selfsame STOCK plans, albeit the
'newest' or 'updated' versions. ANY 'CUSTOM' business - especially any
'DESIGN FIRM' makes 90% of it's money on the CUSTOM or ORIGINAL design
'clients' or orders. Despite how the word 'PROFIT' has been made into a
swear word . . . ANY business NEEDS some of it to STAY in business !!

Fourth . . . If I were in an IMMEDIATE and CRITICAL need for a 'Bolger
Plan' - I would contact 'Dynamite' - FIRST. And for the near future address
any concerns about Plans through him.

Fifth . . . Susanne - you seem to be 'monitoring' what is being said here,
so I hope you read this - I would suggest the following 'methodology' . . .
1} separate the daily mail into THREE 'piles' - Crap, Follow-up, and
Orders - should take about 15 minutes . . .2} take ONE hour a day and 'work'
one ONE of the 'piles' - keep them in 'earliest first' sequence. . . .3}
Make sure 'Dynamite' has the 'Update Sheets' for the most requested Stock
plans . . . and forward all 'stock' orders to him . . . if this is both
convenient and amenable to your historic business relationship.

Regards, Thanks and Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

> "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,

<snip> I guess things would be really bad if nobody was attending this
forum anymore...

>> The frustrating experience of members of this group with PB&F is
>> undeniable. . . .
>> Let me offer you all an update:
>> - Re-establishing sustainable levels of emotional and physical health is
>> progressing well, . . .

>> - I can enter, stay and work for hours in Phil's study again, after many
>> months . . .
>> - The 'normal life' daily ups and downs are met reasonably well, though
>> still a bit bumpy at times. . . .
>> - Those who attended the Memorial last September saw the state of
>> relative decay of the boats and the property around the house.
>> - In terms of business affairs much has been ordered, sorted, settled,
>> with much left to be done but progress is giving me energy so badly
>> needed to grow towards sustainable business-responsiveness.
>>
>> - MAIB contributions are on a regular schedule again.
>>
>> - A good part of the available daily energy went into much preparatory
>> work towards getting an experimental (very BOLGER!) 35' boat to a federal
>> client's wish-list. . . .the project has absorbed much energy towards a
>> potentially intriguing outcome and a bit of income for PB&F. . .

For those in this group whose inquiries went annoyingly unanswered give it
another shot and print up on top LAST CALL to identify yourselves. I will
deal with those first.

>> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

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