Re: Avara vs Jesse Cooper

> This then perhaps a tipping point discernable from the
> data base returns for design number that show interest
> in similar form before and after Arava?

I think we can read a bit of PCB's opinion in the write-up of Jesse Cooper. I don't have it at hand, but I think I remember it pretty well.

He does a comparison between the the "improved sharpie" hull form of JC and the St Pierre dory hull form (with fin keel added). He does not say that the sharpie is better in all ways for all things. What he says is that it has some advantages (in this case usable hull volume being one) and is workable despite some problems. As I remember the term "shattering crash" is mentioned along with some concern about wear and tear on the bottom planking if the boat went to sea. (I sailed a similarly-shaped Cynthia J, and I experienced shattering crashes.)

The design brief for Avara was for a live-aboard vessel for a doctor. It didn't say he might have patients aboard, but perhaps that was a consideration. I think she looks pretty good as a floating cottage.

I don't think PCB ever offered a flat-bottom boat when there wasn't some constraint of length, cost, or building-time pressing him in that direction. What distinguished him was his willingness to go there when the payback was worthwhile. And, of course, he was good at it.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
> I think you misinterpret. IIRC, the dining room table and benches
> in Jesse Cooper are not long enough to sleep on. In Avara,
> they are, plus there are additional pilot berths outboard.
> So Avara sleeps six to JC's two. At least, that's what I remember.

Yes, you're correct. I suppose there could be some rearrangement in the layout? The limits might be: no extra berths in Jesse Cooper, and no larger galley in Arava?

I like the looks of Arava's schooner rig, similar to Otter's. The flagpole spar solution is neat, but are they durable enough for sea?

> I think Avara has a lot more displacement, which should make
> for better load-carrying capacity.

Possibly, but wouldn't much of that be taken up by the 2350kg of lead ballast?

Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
> Her hull form would be a lot more comfortable in any kind of sea.

This then perhaps a tipping point discernable from the data base returns for design number that show interest in similar form before and after Arava?

Tiny Cat (or Bobcat) #470 **
Plain 18 #472
Deuce #473
Summer Hen #476
Power Catamaran #480 *
Barge Houseboat #481 *
Unnamed #483
Anhinga #484
Long Micro #486
Weston Martyr #487
Open Water Utility #488 *
Speed Launch AKA Gale #492 *
Canoe ("Payson Pirogue") #495 **
Birdwatcher #496/Birdwatcher II #496B
Yacht Tender #498
Live-On-Board Scow Schooner #501
Ship's Boat #506 *
Glued Clinker #507
Sybil's Yawl #507 *

Arava #509 **

Martha Jane #510
Yamato Fishing Launch #511 **(guess)
His and Her Schooner #512
Singlehand Schooner-HHP (His and Hers-PB&F) #512
Keel Canoe Yawl #514 *
Rubens Nymph #516 **
Bateau #517
Shivaree 16 #518 *
Cartopper #519 **
Wyoming #520
Japanese Beach Cruiser #522 ***
Singlehander Cat #523 *
Bahama Dinghy..Yacht Version #524
Seabird '86 #525 **
Light Dory (Type 7) Long Light Dory (PB&F), Stretched Light Dory (CSD & Instant Boats) #526
Nymph Cubed #527 **
Missouri River Keelboat #528 *
Charlie's Catboat #530 *


Graeme
> Arava looks to me to have a little less accomodation than the
> Jesse Cooper, with more or less the same arrangement.

I think you misinterpret. IIRC, the dining room table and benches in Jesse Cooper are not long enough to sleep on. In Avara, they are, plus there are additional pilot berths outboard. So Avara sleeps six to JC's two. At least, that's what I remember.

I think Avara has a lot more displacement, which should make for better load-carrying capacity. Her hull form would be a lot more comfortable in any kind of sea.
> Arava, indeed. Haven't seen the picture in years.
>
> Although I might ask for a different rig, I always thought the Arava design was a winner for very effective use of interior space, and all over practicality.
>

Arava looks to me to have a little less accomodation than the Jesse Cooper, with more or less the same arrangement. No doubt there's still enough space for some solo cruiser to liveabord. I wonder if Arava has performance and seakeeping sufficiently better than Jesse Cooper to justify the extra investment? Arava would not cost tremendously more than Jesse Cooper. Perhaps the returns would even things out? OTOH is Arava a bit of a green-water washed lead mine? Tender? Unpressed, in shorter chop she'd ride well.

Graeme
> Here is my educated guess as to the hull shape
>http://hallman.org/bolger/313/

I'm sure that's pretty close. The chine line aft gets very interesting.
>Phil gave her what I believe is a unique shape.  Her section to the bottom of her keel is a
>narrow-angle Deep-Vee, with a shallower Vee added halfway up to end in the chine-line
>visible on the photos to give her shoulders to sail on.


Here is my educated guess as to the hull shape

http://hallman.org/bolger/313/
> ARAVA? (A favourite;)
> She makes a contrast with the double-ender designed,
> I believe, for a doctor on the Red Sea.

Arava, indeed. Haven't seen the picture in years.

Although I might ask for a different rig, I always thought the Arava design was a winner for very effective use of interior space, and all over practicality.
Someone recognised it as a "steal". It is no longer listed. Sadly, the person listing never produced the promised photos of the boat hauled out. I would have loved to have seen the underbody.
Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Gentry" <alias1719@...> wrote:
>
>http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/1789603936.html
>
> No affiliation, btw. Never seen this one before . . . Ms. Altenburger, can you enlighten us?
>
> Thanks!
>
> 39k Seems like a steal!
>
> doctor on the Red Sea.

ARAVA? (A favourite;)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/files/Arava/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/database?method=reportRows&tbl=3&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&startAt=&prntRpt=1

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> > She is Phil's interpretation of a 'conventional'/conservative
> > long-keel cruising-design in untortured steel-plate.
>
> Very interesting. Thanks for posting the listing and the comments. She certainly is at the opposite end of the spectrum from the boats PCB was known for, e.g. Moccasin. The draft isn't so much considering her displacement. A Cape Dory 40, for example, is about 8 tons and 5'8" draft. There is a very heavy steel boat in the yard up the street, and whatever all that weight does for her performance (nothing good, I bet), it does make for a lot of interior.
>
> She makes a contrast with the double-ender designed, I believe, for a doctor on the Red Sea. The name escapes me. I think that boat was ply and had leeboards, but there are overall similarities of appearance.
>
Thank you! Very nice to have the authority on hand - other than those published in the books, many - or even most - of Mr. Bolger's designs remain a mystery to me. I'd like to learn about all 600+ of them!
> She is Phil's interpretation of a 'conventional'/conservative
> long-keel cruising-design in untortured steel-plate.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting the listing and the comments. She certainly is at the opposite end of the spectrum from the boats PCB was known for, e.g. Moccasin. The draft isn't so much considering her displacement. A Cape Dory 40, for example, is about 8 tons and 5'8" draft. There is a very heavy steel boat in the yard up the street, and whatever all that weight does for her performance (nothing good, I bet), it does make for a lot of interior.

She makes a contrast with the double-ender designed, I believe, for a doctor on the Red Sea. The name escapes me. I think that boat was ply and had leeboards, but there are overall similarities of appearance.
Hello All,
    "Ferra" has been her name all along.  Her builder C.E. Pannell brought Design Number 313 to Gloucester perhaps 15 years ago and looked well-built and maintained.  Unawares of that design's particulars I was stunned by the deep-draft approach overall.  She is Phil's interpretation of a 'conventional'/conservative long-keel cruising-design in untortured steel-plate.  As far as I can compare her to other such geometries in steel, Phil gave her what I believe is a unique shape.  Her section to the bottom of her keel is a narrow-angle Deep-Vee, with a shallower Vee added halfway up to end in the chine-line visible on the photos to give her shoulders to sail on.  The plans do not feature expansions but at first glance all panels seem readily developable on the shop-floor.  I think that at around that length she is the deepest cruiser in the archive, this side of Gary Blankenship original 7'-draft OSTAR candidate version, now significantly modified for shallower northwest Floridian waters.  In summary, #313 is Phil's interpretation of a homebuildable wish-list for a deep-draft/long-keel/conventionalrig geometry with an unusual body-plan for reasonable rapid assembly in sturdy plate-thickness.  Note that RESOLUTION is #312, ZEPHYR #316, TEAL #310, WINDFOLA #311, MOCASSIN #297.  
Susanne Altenburger
Phil Bolger & Friends
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Sunday, June 13, 2010 7:57 PM
Subject:[bolger] Bolger 36' steel ketch on CL

 

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/1789603936.html

No affiliation, btw. Never seen this one before . . . Ms. Altenburger, can you enlighten us?

Thanks!

39k Seems like a steal!

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/1789603936.html

No affiliation, btw. Never seen this one before . . . Ms. Altenburger, can you enlighten us?

Thanks!

39k Seems like a steal!