Re: [bolger] Re: Refinishing Spars Tonk? Plonk?

On 10-08-15 8:36 AM, prairiedog2332 wrote:

 

Hi Eric,

Great article and nice photos. I checked the product information at AR&T
and it makes no mention of it containing any UV inhibitors, just a mix
of tung and linseed oils. It is my understanding that you need UV
inhibitors to protect the epoxy undercoat.

http://www.tarsmell.com/letonkinois_original.html

It also seems to rely on wood penetration to get adherence, which to is
not going to happen over epoxy although it is mentioned all it needs is
some tooth on the epoxy will do it. Sort of conflicting claims.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, E Light<elaphimn@...>wrote:
>
> Here's a thought from the Melonseeds blog: "Just say NO to varnish":
>
http://web.me.com/eyeinhand/EyeInHand-Journal/Melonseeds/Entries/2010/8/\
14_NO_Varnish.html
>
> Eric
> ------
>
> On 10-08-10 4:20 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
> > It has been awhile since I did any "bright-finish" work or
varnishing
> > and there has been several advances in that kind of thing.
> >
> > First off, the spars were originally coated with epoxy, so I intend
to
> > remove the old varnish and put on some new stuff. I am not
interested
> > in a high gloss finish - mainly protecting the underlying epoxy from
UV.
> >
> > A semi-gloss or even satin finish is what I prefer. Seems some
> > varnishes these days are actually polyurethane based - not oil? Or
is
> > that incorrect?
> >
> > I finished some cabinetry in a camper van with an exterior
> > polyurethane product and it held up remarkably, but is not exposed
to
> > the elements. Three thin coats applied with a foam brush with no
> > sanding required in between - if reapplied within a few hours -
which
> > is my kind of product.
> >
> > Any recommendations?
> >
> > Nels
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, E Light <elaphimn@...> wrote:
>
> Here's a thought from the Melonseeds blog: "Just say NO to varnish":
>
http://web.me.com/eyeinhand/EyeInHand-Journal/Melonseeds/Entries/2010/8/\
14_NO_Varnish.html
>
> Eric
> ------
>
> On 10-08-10 4:20 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
> > It has been awhile since I did any "bright-finish" work or
varnishing
> > and there has been several advances in that kind of thing.
> >
> > First off, the spars were originally coated with epoxy, so I intend
to
> > remove the old varnish and put on some new stuff. I am not
interested
> > in a high gloss finish - mainly protecting the underlying epoxy from
UV.
> >
> > A semi-gloss or even satin finish is what I prefer. Seems some
> > varnishes these days are actually polyurethane based - not oil? Or
is
> > that incorrect?
> >
> > I finished some cabinetry in a camper van with an exterior
> > polyurethane product and it held up remarkably, but is not exposed
to
> > the elements. Three thin coats applied with a foam brush with no
> > sanding required in between - if reapplied within a few hours -
which
> > is my kind of product.
> >
> > Any recommendations?
> >
> > Nels
>

On 8/14/2010 11:32 PM, E Light wrote:

Here's a thought from the Melonseeds blog: "Just say NO to varnish":
http://web.me.com/eyeinhand/EyeInHand-Journal/Melonseeds/Entries/2010/8/14_NO_Varnish.html

Eric
------

On 10-08-10 4:20 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:

It has been awhile since I did any "bright-finish" work or varnishing and there has been several advances in that kind of thing.

First off, the spars were originally coated with epoxy, so I intend to remove the old varnish and put on some new stuff. I am not interested in a high gloss finish - mainly protecting the underlying epoxy from UV.

A semi-gloss or even satin finish is what I prefer. Seems some varnishes these days are actually polyurethane based - not oil? Or is that incorrect?

I finished some cabinetry in a camper van with an exterior polyurethane product and it held up remarkably, but is not exposed to the elements. Three thin coats applied with a foam brush with no sanding required in between - if reapplied within a few hours - which is my kind of product.

Any recommendations?

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> For some reason this Canadian supplier lists Interlux Goldspar
(modified
> urethane ) for interior use only.
>
>
<http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10005|10006&product=61587\
\
> 60&code=058125400601>
>
> They seem to suggest Schooner instead. (Looks like a regular
unmodified
> spar varnish)
>
>
<http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10005|10006&product=61587\
\
> 62&code=058125400960>
>
> Ironically, this urethane product is the cheapest they offer, and
makes
> the largest claims that really seem ideal for a lazy person like moi.
> Looks like it is 2-pot with cross-linking capabilities. Wonder what
the
> catch is? Maybe too brittle for spars?
>
>
<http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10005|10006&product=61657\
\
> 99&code=853973001044>
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" arbordg@ wrote:
> >
> > Nels,
> >
> > I guess reading back, I never got to the OP. Yes, if you're going
over
> old varnish - Cetol is out, unless you completely and thoroughly wood
> the spar and wash everything down with solvents.
> >
> > Epifanes is a good brand (some say the best). I've used their
> traditional formula (tung oil & phenolic resin), but mostly use
Interlux
> products. In know Interlux makes products with phenolic resin, with
> urethane resin, and with a combo. I imagine Epifanes does also. My
> understanding of the urethane resins is - more scratch-resistant;
> slightly more brittle (but not generally a problem; clearer, doesn't
> impart that traditional ambering effect. I used a urethane based
varnish
> (Interlux Goldspar) for the spars on one of my boats, and it's held up
> quite well.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David G
> >
>

> Re: Refinshing Spars?
> What is the value of hardness relatively speaking? My understanding is
> the finish should be somewhat flexible as spars flex constantly in use.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> Nels,
>
> I guess reading back, I never got to the OP. Yes, if you're going over
old varnish - Cetol is out, unless you completely and thoroughly wood
the spar and wash everything down with solvents.
>
> Epifanes is a good brand (some say the best). I've used their
traditional formula (tung oil & phenolic resin), but mostly use Interlux
products. In know Interlux makes products with phenolic resin, with
urethane resin, and with a combo. I imagine Epifanes does also. My
understanding of the urethane resins is - more scratch-resistant;
slightly more brittle (but not generally a problem; clearer, doesn't
impart that traditional ambering effect. I used a urethane based varnish
(Interlux Goldspar) for the spars on one of my boats, and it's held up
quite well.
>
> Cheers,
> David G
>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 05:16:27 -0700, Walter wrote:

> John - what happened was , the the parent company that owned Deks Olje
> got bought, and cut that division loose, so it was kind of abandoned for
> a while. Recently, it was bought and put back in production. I got this
> story from talking to reps at the Wooden Boat Show this year.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>>
>> Deks Olje is back! My wild guess as to what happened to it is that
>> European Union regulations on hazardous products (they tried to ban pine
>> tar, fercrisake!) put the kibosh on it in the land of its birth, but now
>> somebody is making it in the US of A:
>>
>>http://www.deksolje.com/


--
John (jkohnen@...)
I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making me hate him.
(Booker T. Washington)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
>
> David,
>
> To reiterate - The original topic was Refinshing Spars (sic) bad spelling - not finishing them.
>
> At no point was Cetol mentioned except as a side-light to a FAQ I quoted from Nexus Marine that offered it as an option. So that may have caused confusion. No intention of going there myself.
>
> Eastern spruce of some kind - clear grained - spars, epoxy encapsulated and varnished with unknown brand. Varnish has deteriorated, but no "milky" patches evident.
>
> My main questions were - what kind of varnish and are urethane based types viable? (Turns out some may be hybrids.)
>
> So the plan is so far to remove the old varnish with scrapers and sanding, and go with Epithanes (most closely available of the top suggested brands) following their instructions.
>
> Thanks for all the help, including off post emails that included some videos.
>
> Nels
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
> >
> > Nels,
> >
> > I find it disconcerting to try and answer finishing questions in isolation. A happy result starts with the purpose of the piece. The type of wood, then the type of fillers used, plus the amount and type of prep all factor in. The sanding sealer - if you use one. The type of topcoat. do you sand or otherwise abrade between coats? Every coat? How many coats do you apply? How's it likely to be treated afterwards?
> >
> > All these factors - and more - will help decide whether a particular "finishing schedule" (the name we give to the whole system) is appropriate to any given circumstance.
> >
> > Your Adirondack Guideboat example is a different circumstance than a 60' spruce spar that stays rigged and in the weather always. They're both different than a small dry-sailed trailer boat that lives indoors and sees light usage. Etc.
> >
> > With all of that off my chest - I'll go ahead and answer your question. Yes, a spar moves, so a 'spar varnish' doesn't dry hard and brittle. Cetol works well in that way also. A spar takes some abuse, from rigging & un-rigging, from hauling, from other spars which cross it and rub on it, from blocks and lines banging against it. To withstand this abrasion, a spar varnish needs to have a hard/tough enough surface not to scratch or wear off. Cetol alone is not hard enough. Cetol top-coated with 'Gloss' is hard enough.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David G
> > Harbor Woodworks
> >
> > ***********************
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@> wrote:
> > >
> > > What is the value of hardness relatively speaking? My understanding is
> > > the finish should be somewhat flexible as spars flex constantly in use.
> > >
> > > The reason for asking is I had an extended visit to a traditional wood
> > > and canvas canoe builder one time in New Brunswick. The senior partner
> > > had been a foreman with Chestnut Canoe Co. previously.
> > >
> > > They did not retail their canoes but had them shipped to Toronto where
> > > they claimed the retailer added 4 to 6 or more coats of varnish and
> > > doubled the prices of what they purchased them for.
> > >
> > > The son said and I quote from memory;
> > >
> > > "Dumb idea, but that is what the buyers expectto see, lots and lots of
> > > varnish. Just adds weight and it starts cracking after awhile."
> > >
> > > I ordered one directly and had is shipped to Saskatchewan, as an in-law
> > > had an "in" with a moving company and they just loaded on top of a
> > > furniture move. (Wrapped in burlap and straw btw.) Never have had to
> > > re-varnish 15 years later. But I am very careful using it and always
> > > keep it inverted outside.
> > >
> > > The point being that a canoe like that is flexing a tiny bit in use and
> > > to apply heavy coats of varnish does nothing to help preserve the wood
> > > if the first two coats are done properly. That is all they applied - two
> > > coats. The wood is eastern cedar.
> > >
> > > Nels
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I agree. I never liked the original Cetol. That fluorescent orange
> > > cast was too weird.
> > > >
> > > > However... They've not only changed their overall formulation (the
> > > 'Next Wave' - which I have no idea whether it's an actual improvement or
> > > not), they've subsequently come up with two different colors. 'Light'
> > > and 'Natural Teak'. The Light is ok to my eye, and a huge improvement
> > > aesthetically over the original. The one I actually like the look of,
> > > though, is the Natural Teak.
> > > >
> > > > If one wants to approach the hardness and abrasion resistance of a
> > > spar varnish you'd need to follow up the requisite coats of Cetol Marine
> > > (any flavor) with 2 - 3 coats of the Gloss. Without it, the finish is,
> > > indeed, quite soft compared to spar varnish.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > David G
> > > > Harbor Woodworks
> > > >
> > > > ***********************
> > > >
> > > >
> > >http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/wood%20treatment/search.aspx
> > > >
> > > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss jrweiss98020@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris Crandall wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cetol should NOT be applied over epoxy. Personally, I used it once
> > > on my
> > > > > > teak dropboards on the hatch of my C-22. I didn't like it at all.
> > > YMMV.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree.
> > > > >
> > > > > I used Cetol on the rails of a previous boat, and it worked well on
> > > raw
> > > > > wood (teak in this case). One potential problem is the color,
> > > though.
> > > > > Original Cetol gives a VERY orange cast, especially after repeated
> > > > > coats. There is now a Cetol Light that has significantly less of
> > > the
> > > > > coloring, though.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> Nels,
>
> I find it disconcerting to try and answer finishing questions in isolation. A happy result starts with the purpose of the piece. The type of wood, then the type of fillers used, plus the amount and type of prep all factor in. The sanding sealer - if you use one. The type of topcoat. do you sand or otherwise abrade between coats? Every coat? How many coats do you apply? How's it likely to be treated afterwards?
>
> All these factors - and more - will help decide whether a particular "finishing schedule" (the name we give to the whole system) is appropriate to any given circumstance.
>
> Your Adirondack Guideboat example is a different circumstance than a 60' spruce spar that stays rigged and in the weather always. They're both different than a small dry-sailed trailer boat that lives indoors and sees light usage. Etc.
>
> With all of that off my chest - I'll go ahead and answer your question. Yes, a spar moves, so a 'spar varnish' doesn't dry hard and brittle. Cetol works well in that way also. A spar takes some abuse, from rigging & un-rigging, from hauling, from other spars which cross it and rub on it, from blocks and lines banging against it. To withstand this abrasion, a spar varnish needs to have a hard/tough enough surface not to scratch or wear off. Cetol alone is not hard enough. Cetol top-coated with 'Gloss' is hard enough.
>
> Cheers,
> David G
> Harbor Woodworks
>
> ***********************
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@> wrote:
> >
> > What is the value of hardness relatively speaking? My understanding is
> > the finish should be somewhat flexible as spars flex constantly in use.
> >
> > The reason for asking is I had an extended visit to a traditional wood
> > and canvas canoe builder one time in New Brunswick. The senior partner
> > had been a foreman with Chestnut Canoe Co. previously.
> >
> > They did not retail their canoes but had them shipped to Toronto where
> > they claimed the retailer added 4 to 6 or more coats of varnish and
> > doubled the prices of what they purchased them for.
> >
> > The son said and I quote from memory;
> >
> > "Dumb idea, but that is what the buyers expectto see, lots and lots of
> > varnish. Just adds weight and it starts cracking after awhile."
> >
> > I ordered one directly and had is shipped to Saskatchewan, as an in-law
> > had an "in" with a moving company and they just loaded on top of a
> > furniture move. (Wrapped in burlap and straw btw.) Never have had to
> > re-varnish 15 years later. But I am very careful using it and always
> > keep it inverted outside.
> >
> > The point being that a canoe like that is flexing a tiny bit in use and
> > to apply heavy coats of varnish does nothing to help preserve the wood
> > if the first two coats are done properly. That is all they applied - two
> > coats. The wood is eastern cedar.
> >
> > Nels
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree. I never liked the original Cetol. That fluorescent orange
> > cast was too weird.
> > >
> > > However... They've not only changed their overall formulation (the
> > 'Next Wave' - which I have no idea whether it's an actual improvement or
> > not), they've subsequently come up with two different colors. 'Light'
> > and 'Natural Teak'. The Light is ok to my eye, and a huge improvement
> > aesthetically over the original. The one I actually like the look of,
> > though, is the Natural Teak.
> > >
> > > If one wants to approach the hardness and abrasion resistance of a
> > spar varnish you'd need to follow up the requisite coats of Cetol Marine
> > (any flavor) with 2 - 3 coats of the Gloss. Without it, the finish is,
> > indeed, quite soft compared to spar varnish.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > David G
> > > Harbor Woodworks
> > >
> > > ***********************
> > >
> > >
> >http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/wood%20treatment/search.aspx
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss jrweiss98020@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Chris Crandall wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Cetol should NOT be applied over epoxy. Personally, I used it once
> > on my
> > > > > teak dropboards on the hatch of my C-22. I didn't like it at all.
> > YMMV.
> > > >
> > > > I agree.
> > > >
> > > > I used Cetol on the rails of a previous boat, and it worked well on
> > raw
> > > > wood (teak in this case). One potential problem is the color,
> > though.
> > > > Original Cetol gives a VERY orange cast, especially after repeated
> > > > coats. There is now a Cetol Light that has significantly less of
> > the
> > > > coloring, though.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> What is the value of hardness relatively speaking? My understanding is
> the finish should be somewhat flexible as spars flex constantly in use.
>
> The reason for asking is I had an extended visit to a traditional wood
> and canvas canoe builder one time in New Brunswick. The senior partner
> had been a foreman with Chestnut Canoe Co. previously.
>
> They did not retail their canoes but had them shipped to Toronto where
> they claimed the retailer added 4 to 6 or more coats of varnish and
> doubled the prices of what they purchased them for.
>
> The son said and I quote from memory;
>
> "Dumb idea, but that is what the buyers expectto see, lots and lots of
> varnish. Just adds weight and it starts cracking after awhile."
>
> I ordered one directly and had is shipped to Saskatchewan, as an in-law
> had an "in" with a moving company and they just loaded on top of a
> furniture move. (Wrapped in burlap and straw btw.) Never have had to
> re-varnish 15 years later. But I am very careful using it and always
> keep it inverted outside.
>
> The point being that a canoe like that is flexing a tiny bit in use and
> to apply heavy coats of varnish does nothing to help preserve the wood
> if the first two coats are done properly. That is all they applied - two
> coats. The wood is eastern cedar.
>
> Nels
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
> >
> > I agree. I never liked the original Cetol. That fluorescent orange
> cast was too weird.
> >
> > However... They've not only changed their overall formulation (the
> 'Next Wave' - which I have no idea whether it's an actual improvement or
> not), they've subsequently come up with two different colors. 'Light'
> and 'Natural Teak'. The Light is ok to my eye, and a huge improvement
> aesthetically over the original. The one I actually like the look of,
> though, is the Natural Teak.
> >
> > If one wants to approach the hardness and abrasion resistance of a
> spar varnish you'd need to follow up the requisite coats of Cetol Marine
> (any flavor) with 2 - 3 coats of the Gloss. Without it, the finish is,
> indeed, quite soft compared to spar varnish.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David G
> > Harbor Woodworks
> >
> > ***********************
> >
> >
>http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/wood%20treatment/search.aspx
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss jrweiss98020@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris Crandall wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cetol should NOT be applied over epoxy. Personally, I used it once
> on my
> > > > teak dropboards on the hatch of my C-22. I didn't like it at all.
> YMMV.
> > >
> > > I agree.
> > >
> > > I used Cetol on the rails of a previous boat, and it worked well on
> raw
> > > wood (teak in this case). One potential problem is the color,
> though.
> > > Original Cetol gives a VERY orange cast, especially after repeated
> > > coats. There is now a Cetol Light that has significantly less of
> the
> > > coloring, though.
> > >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> I agree. I never liked the original Cetol. That fluorescent orange
cast was too weird.
>
> However... They've not only changed their overall formulation (the
'Next Wave' - which I have no idea whether it's an actual improvement or
not), they've subsequently come up with two different colors. 'Light'
and 'Natural Teak'. The Light is ok to my eye, and a huge improvement
aesthetically over the original. The one I actually like the look of,
though, is the Natural Teak.
>
> If one wants to approach the hardness and abrasion resistance of a
spar varnish you'd need to follow up the requisite coats of Cetol Marine
(any flavor) with 2 - 3 coats of the Gloss. Without it, the finish is,
indeed, quite soft compared to spar varnish.
>
> Cheers,
> David G
> Harbor Woodworks
>
> ***********************
>
>
http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/wood%20treatment/search.aspx
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss jrweiss98020@ wrote:
> >
> > Chris Crandall wrote:
> > >
> > > Cetol should NOT be applied over epoxy. Personally, I used it once
on my
> > > teak dropboards on the hatch of my C-22. I didn't like it at all.
YMMV.
> >
> > I agree.
> >
> > I used Cetol on the rails of a previous boat, and it worked well on
raw
> > wood (teak in this case). One potential problem is the color,
though.
> > Original Cetol gives a VERY orange cast, especially after repeated
> > coats. There is now a Cetol Light that has significantly less of
the
> > coloring, though.
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss <jrweiss98020@...> wrote:
>
> Chris Crandall wrote:
> >
> > Cetol should NOT be applied over epoxy. Personally, I used it once on my
> > teak dropboards on the hatch of my C-22. I didn't like it at all. YMMV.
>
> I agree.
>
> I used Cetol on the rails of a previous boat, and it worked well on raw
> wood (teak in this case). One potential problem is the color, though.
> Original Cetol gives a VERY orange cast, especially after repeated
> coats. There is now a Cetol Light that has significantly less of the
> coloring, though.
>

> What happened? Did it not adhere well?
> It is available in a "light" now.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> Deks Olje is back! My wild guess as to what happened to it is that
> European Union regulations on hazardous products (they tried to ban pine
> tar, fercrisake!) put the kibosh on it in the land of its birth, but now
> somebody is making it in the US of A:
>
>http://www.deksolje.com/
>
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:52:27 -0700, Mason wrote:
>
> > I never liked Cetol. did like Deks Oldie, can't get it any more,
> > ...
>
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> I have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman
> couldn't make it worse. (Brendan Behan)
>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:52:27 -0700, Mason wrote:

> I never liked Cetol. did like Deks Oldie, can't get it any more,
> ...


--
John (jkohnen@...)
I have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman
couldn't make it worse. (Brendan Behan)

>
> I never liked Cetol. did like Deks Oldie, can't get it any more, am experimenting with tung oil in its various forms, diluted, partially polymerized, and pure. Currently restoring a Penn Yan cartopper, and gave the interior a couple of long drinks of the thinned product, to be followed by Captain's varnish. And by the way using the current fabric-covered airplane system for the fabric over the hull. the learning never stops.
>

>
> I never liked Cetol. did like Deks Oldie, can't get it any more, am

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Weiss
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Refinshing Spars?
>
>
>
> Chris Crandall wrote:
> >
> > Cetol should NOT be applied over epoxy. Personally, I used it once

> > teak dropboards on the hatch of my C-22. I didn't like it at all.

>
> I agree.
>
> I used Cetol on the rails of a previous boat, and it worked well on

> wood (teak in this case). One potential problem is the color,

> Original Cetol gives a VERY orange cast, especially after repeated
> coats. There is now a Cetol Light that has significantly less of the
> coloring, though.
>

----- Original Message -----

From:John Weiss

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:10 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Refinshing Spars?

 

Chris Crandall wrote:
>
> Cetol should NOT be applied over epoxy. Personally, I used it once on my
> teak dropboards on the hatch of my C-22. I didn't like it at all. YMMV.

I agree.

I used Cetol on the rails of a previous boat, and it worked well on raw
wood (teak in this case). One potential problem is the color, though.
Original Cetol gives a VERY orange cast, especially after repeated
coats. There is now a Cetol Light that has significantly less of the
coloring, though.

>
> I have one warning for al of us varnishing over epoxy (which I do, very
> frequently, and successfully, with Captains, Flagship, and Epifanes: it
> is that we must, MUST, renew the varnish occasionally. I believe the UV
> inhibitors get used up in sunlight. If we forget, or go without
> recoating a season too long, we will have the epoxy underneath yellowing
> and separating from the wood, a sad mess. At that point, one wishes one
> had not used epoxy under the varnish in the first place. And it is very
> easy to go a season too long without revarnishing, so I am using epoxy
> under varnish less frequently.
>
> By the way, the nicest epoxy ever for the purpose, to my mind, is System
> Three's ClearCoat. Great stuff, BUT.
>
> I throw out another question regarding polyurethanes: Is it not the case
> that nowadays, in such a varnish as Flagship, some sort of urethane is
> in the mix?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:

> > Cetol is an "oil based alkyd" from what I undestand. So does add
to
> > the confusion!
>
> Cetol should NOT be applied over epoxy. Personally, I used it once on
my
> teak dropboards on the hatch of my C-22. I didn't like it at all.
YMMV.
>

----- Original Message -----

From:John Weiss

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:58 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Refinshing Spars?

 

I think you will find MANY people here who successfully use traditional
varnishes over epoxy. In fact, when finishing the decks and gunwales of
my Adirondack Guideboat, I purposely put on a coat of epoxy as a base
coat before the varnish, and adds to the gloss. IMO, the epoxy works
well to help prevent premature failure of the varnish-to-wood bond.

Just make sure that if the epoxy is new that you give it adequate time
and temperature to cure (several days at 80F+ or several weeks at cooler
temps) and you remove the blush (dish detergent + nylon scrubber) before
varnishing.

prairiedog2332 wrote:
>
> Thanks gentlemen,
>
> Yes, I have heard the same as you folks, that "traditional varnishes"
> have the best UV protection.
>
> What got me wondering was a passing comment on the WB forum saying
> something about WEST not recommending oil/solvent based varnish over
> epoxy. No reason given though.
>
> Now from reading other info - bearing in mind of course - everyone has
> their own ideas on the subject, it did occur to me that traditional
> varnishes depend on some absorbency into the wood for best adherence.
> Best I can tell is the solvents break down the oil and allow it to
> penetrate the wood and then evaporates, along with added "drying agents"
> and the finish adheres yet is allowed to breathe so moisture can escape
> - something like that. Epoxy coatings "cross link" at the molecular
> level and create a non-penetrating barrier to any absorption into the
> wood, essentially sealing it.
>
> Some urethane- based "varnishes" also cross-link apparently so may be
> more compatible with epoxy sealed spars.
>
> System Three has it's own brands it recommends:
>
>http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/Spar-Urethane-Varnish-c28.htm
>
> Extra shipping costs though as noted in red at the link.
>
> This is the one I used for the interior cabinetry mentioned previously,
> and is locally available.
>
>http://www.rona.ca/shop/~varnish-minwax-460667_minwax_paint_shop
>
> Also noted from the FAQ at this site relating to a Black Simmer build
>
>http://www.nexusmarine.com/faq.html
>
> "What do you use for varnish?
>
> We use a marine polyurethane varnish over a clear epoxy coating. If you
> don't want varnish, our standard brightwork finish is Cetol, which is
> very long lasting and easy to take care of."
>
> I'm also wondering, since I am located in a northern latitude, if high
> UV protection is as important as getting a product more compatible with
> epoxy? Nexus is located in Everett WA, couple hours south of me.
>
> Cetol is an "oil based alkyd" from what I undestand. So does add to
> the confusion!

>
> Cetol should NOT be applied over epoxy. Personally, I used it once on my
> teak dropboards on the hatch of my C-22. I didn't like it at all. YMMV.

>
> Thanks again Bob,
>
> Do you add a thinner or go straight from the can?
>
> I have read several light coats are better than a couple heavier coats.
> Guessing it also depends on the air temperatures?
>
> <http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=235\
> 5&familyName=Pettit+T-10+Medium+Thinner
> <http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2355&familyName=Pettit+T-10+Medium+Thinner>>
>
> Nels

> Also noted from the FAQ at this site relating to a Black Simmer build
>http://www.nexusmarine.com/faq.html
> "What do you use for varnish?
>
> We use a marine polyurethane varnish over a clear epoxy
> coating. If you don't want varnish, our standard brightwork
> finish is Cetol, which is very long lasting and easy to take care of."
>
> I'm also wondering, since I am located in a northern latitude, if high
> UV protection is as important as getting a product more compatible with
> epoxy? Nexus is located in Everett WA, couple hours south of me.
>
> Cetol is an "oil based alkyd" from what I undestand. So does add to
> the confusion!

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss <jrweiss98020@...> wrote:
>
> I think you will find MANY people here who successfully use
traditional
> varnishes over epoxy. In fact, when finishing the decks and gunwales
of
> my Adirondack Guideboat, I purposely put on a coat of epoxy as a base
> coat before the varnish, and adds to the gloss. IMO, the epoxy works
> well to help prevent premature failure of the varnish-to-wood bond.
>
> Just make sure that if the epoxy is new that you give it adequate time
> and temperature to cure (several days at 80F+ or several weeks at
cooler
> temps) and you remove the blush (dish detergent + nylon scrubber)
before
> varnishing.

>
> Thanks gentlemen,
>
> Yes, I have heard the same as you folks, that "traditional varnishes"
> have the best UV protection.
>
> What got me wondering was a passing comment on the WB forum saying
> something about WEST not recommending oil/solvent based varnish over
> epoxy. No reason given though.
>
> Now from reading other info - bearing in mind of course - everyone has
> their own ideas on the subject, it did occur to me that traditional
> varnishes depend on some absorbency into the wood for best adherence.
> Best I can tell is the solvents break down the oil and allow it to
> penetrate the wood and then evaporates, along with added "drying agents"
> and the finish adheres yet is allowed to breathe so moisture can escape
> - something like that. Epoxy coatings "cross link" at the molecular
> level and create a non-penetrating barrier to any absorption into the
> wood, essentially sealing it.
>
> Some urethane- based "varnishes" also cross-link apparently so may be
> more compatible with epoxy sealed spars.
>
> System Three has it's own brands it recommends:
>
>http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/Spar-Urethane-Varnish-c28.htm
>
> Extra shipping costs though as noted in red at the link.
>
> This is the one I used for the interior cabinetry mentioned previously,
> and is locally available.
>
>http://www.rona.ca/shop/~varnish-minwax-460667_minwax_paint_shop
>
> Also noted from the FAQ at this site relating to a Black Simmer build
>
>http://www.nexusmarine.com/faq.html
>
> "What do you use for varnish?
>
> We use a marine polyurethane varnish over a clear epoxy coating. If you
> don't want varnish, our standard brightwork finish is Cetol, which is
> very long lasting and easy to take care of."
>
> I'm also wondering, since I am located in a northern latitude, if high
> UV protection is as important as getting a product more compatible with
> epoxy? Nexus is located in Everett WA, couple hours south of me.
>
> Cetol is an "oil based alkyd" from what I undestand. So does add to
> the confusion!

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Murray" <ugoigotoo@...> wrote:
>
> I can't find a reference but I've always understood that polyurethane is just not up to the task of protecting wood/epoxy in the marine environment.
>
> Spar varnish with UV inhibitors. I have used Epifanes.
>
> Murray
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss jrweiss98020@ wrote:
> >
> > Polyurethane may not have the proper UV inhibitors to protect the epoxy.
> > System 3 recommends Z-Spar Flagship as having the best UV inhibitors.
> > I've also used Z-Spar Captain.
> >
> > When I was looking for satin finish varnishes a few years ago, I could
> > not find any that were suitable on their own. The best way to go is to
> > start with several coats of gloss varnish, then a couple coats of the
> > satin on top.
> >
> >
> > prairiedog2332 wrote:
> > >
> > > It has been awhile since I did any "bright-finish" work or varnishing
> > > and there has been several advances in that kind of thing.
> > >
> > > First off, the spars were originally coated with epoxy, so I intend to
> > > remove the old varnish and put on some new stuff. I am not interested in
> > > a high gloss finish - mainly protecting the underlying epoxy from UV.
> > >
> > > A semi-gloss or even satin finish is what I prefer. Seems some varnishes
> > > these days are actually polyurethane based - not oil? Or is that incorrect?
> > >
> > > I finished some cabinetry in a camper van with an exterior polyurethane
> > > product and it held up remarkably, but is not exposed to the elements.
> > > Three thin coats applied with a foam brush with no sanding required in
> > > between - if reapplied within a few hours - which is my kind of product.
> > >
> > > Any recommendations?
> > >
> > > Nels
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss <jrweiss98020@...> wrote:
>
> Polyurethane may not have the proper UV inhibitors to protect the epoxy.
> System 3 recommends Z-Spar Flagship as having the best UV inhibitors.
> I've also used Z-Spar Captain.
>
> When I was looking for satin finish varnishes a few years ago, I could
> not find any that were suitable on their own. The best way to go is to
> start with several coats of gloss varnish, then a couple coats of the
> satin on top.
>
>
> prairiedog2332 wrote:
> >
> > It has been awhile since I did any "bright-finish" work or varnishing
> > and there has been several advances in that kind of thing.
> >
> > First off, the spars were originally coated with epoxy, so I intend to
> > remove the old varnish and put on some new stuff. I am not interested in
> > a high gloss finish - mainly protecting the underlying epoxy from UV.
> >
> > A semi-gloss or even satin finish is what I prefer. Seems some varnishes
> > these days are actually polyurethane based - not oil? Or is that incorrect?
> >
> > I finished some cabinetry in a camper van with an exterior polyurethane
> > product and it held up remarkably, but is not exposed to the elements.
> > Three thin coats applied with a foam brush with no sanding required in
> > between - if reapplied within a few hours - which is my kind of product.
> >
> > Any recommendations?
> >
> > Nels
>

>
> It has been awhile since I did any "bright-finish" work or varnishing
> and there has been several advances in that kind of thing.
>
> First off, the spars were originally coated with epoxy, so I intend to
> remove the old varnish and put on some new stuff. I am not interested in
> a high gloss finish - mainly protecting the underlying epoxy from UV.
>
> A semi-gloss or even satin finish is what I prefer. Seems some varnishes
> these days are actually polyurethane based - not oil? Or is that incorrect?
>
> I finished some cabinetry in a camper van with an exterior polyurethane
> product and it held up remarkably, but is not exposed to the elements.
> Three thin coats applied with a foam brush with no sanding required in
> between - if reapplied within a few hours - which is my kind of product.
>
> Any recommendations?
>
> Nels