Re: 630

I thoroughly agree about the stiffness argument. If stiffness is wanted, laminate from plywood.

I will second Bruce Hallman's reference to Buhler.
If using dimensional lumber use water resistant glue, plain old bedding compound or asphalt tar. Asphalt tar is cheap and will act like glue once it sets up. I have experience using epoxy on dimensional lumber and have seen 3/8" * 4" 8* 26' walnut (relatively stable with moisture changes) shake off its 4" wide glue line because of moisture cycling. I've seen epoxy used on big keel pieces by professionals who also bolted everything together as if the epoxy were bedding compound. I think they were asking for trouble and should have just used bedding compound or asphalt tar. Epoxy is great stuff for cold molding and fiberglassing. It is not great stuff for gluing dimensional lumber. It is an inappropriate use.

By the way, epoxy is water proof, but not moisture proof. Moisture will penetrate and it will condense in voids in plywood if it can penetrate the plywood and if the plywood has voids and if the temperature of the plywood is below the dew point. It will not exit as easily as it enters. Anyone had any experience with this? I am unclear about how well moisture will penetrate plywood.
Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Rick Bedard <sctree@...> wrote:
>
> I think if the 3" thick shoe was laminated from six courses of 1/2" ply it would
> hold it's shape and add to the hull stiffness. I don't think two courses of 2x
> material would.. Also the shrinking of green lumber or the swelling on dry would
> cause havoc with two courses at 1.5" each sharing a single glueline.
>
> BUT... I've never tried it, so what do I know.....
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bruce Hallman <hallman@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 8:38:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] 630
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 9:30 PM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:
> >
> > not sure using dumentional lumber for the shoe for the 630 would work, The 1/2
> >in ply will conform to the rocker of the bottom, while lumber be it 2 X 4s etc
> >would conform and be difficult to make it solid. The idea of using treated stuff
> >makes sense,, ed (I am the one Phill designed 630 for)
>
>
> Fair concern. According to my math, the total rocker in the
> 'Illinois' bottom is about 12 inches spread over the 51 foot long
> length. That is relatively flat.
>
> I am pretty sure that if you picked up a 50 foot long piece of
> "two-by" lumber by its middle, that it would sag under its own weight
> by much more than the 12" of needed bend.
>
> The shoe of the design 630 'Illinois' is 3 inch thick. I had imagined
> that you could laminate two courses of standard "two-by" lumber which
> is 1 1/2" thick, staggering the joints. You could also scarf the
> joints, but that would not add much strength worth the extra trouble
> in my opinion.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
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According to my plans for the 630, the shoe is 4 in thick, A stack of 8- 1/2 ply, staggered so the glue lines are not on top of each other, the width of 630 is 10 ft length 63 ft. . Phil specifies 1/2 in ply. (readily available and relatively inexpensive I think is prob the cheapest of the ply-woods, and it is certainly all over) I suspect one could use inexpensive 1/2 pl for the shoe, but encapsulate it well to keep down rot. I have often wondered if one could use 10 ft wide 1/2 in ply. sure would be a time saver, but maybe it would be prohibitively expensive? I haven't checked as to availability. It would take aprox 16 sheets for the bottom, the rest could be standard 4X8 1/2 in ply ews

I need to admit that using dimensional lumber instead of plywood isn't
my original idea. I am influenced by the building techniques of
George Buehler.

http://books.google.com/books?id=I_xMJ5QY23oC

I think that he might go even further and suggest that the dimensional
lumber be glued together with asphalt based roofing cement instead of
epoxy.

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Rick Bedard <sctree@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I think if the 3" thick shoe was laminated from six courses of 1/2" ply it would hold it's shape and add to the hull stiffness. I don't think two courses of 2x material would.. Also the shrinking of green lumber or the swelling on dry would cause havoc with two courses at 1.5" each sharing a single glueline.
> BUT... I've never tried it, so what do I know.....
> Rick

I think if the 3" thick shoe was laminated from six courses of 1/2" ply it would hold it's shape and add to the hull stiffness. I don't think two courses of 2x material would.. Also the shrinking of green lumber or the swelling on dry would cause havoc with two courses at 1.5" each sharing a single glueline.

BUT... I've never tried it, so what do I know.....

Rick

From:Bruce Hallman <hallman@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Fri, August 27, 2010 8:38:10 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] 630

On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 9:30 PM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:
>
> not sure using dumentional lumber for the shoe for the 630 would work, The 1/2 in ply will conform to the rocker of the bottom, while lumber be it 2 X 4s etc would conform and be difficult to make it solid. The idea of using treated stuff makes sense,, ed (I am the one Phill designed 630 for)

Fair concern. According to my math, the total rocker in the
'Illinois' bottom is about 12 inches spread over the 51 foot long
length. That is relatively flat.

I am pretty sure that if you picked up a 50 foot long piece of
"two-by" lumber by its middle, that it would sag under its own weight
by much more than the 12" of needed bend.

The shoe of the design 630 'Illinois' is 3 inch thick. I had imagined
that you could laminate two courses of standard "two-by" lumber which
is 1 1/2" thick, staggering the joints. You could also scarf the
joints, but that would not add much strength worth the extra trouble
in my opinion.

------------------------------------

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On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 9:30 PM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:

>
> not sure using dumentional lumber for the shoe for the 630 would work, The 1/2 in ply will conform to the rocker of the bottom, while lumber be it 2 X 4s etc would conform and be difficult to make it solid. The idea of using treated stuff makes sense,, ed (I am the one Phill designed 630 for)

Fair concern. According to my math, the total rocker in the
'Illinois' bottom is about 12 inches spread over the 51 foot long
length. That is relatively flat.

I am pretty sure that if you picked up a 50 foot long piece of
"two-by" lumber by its middle, that it would sag under its own weight
by much more than the 12" of needed bend.

The shoe of the design 630 'Illinois' is 3 inch thick. I had imagined
that you could laminate two courses of standard "two-by" lumber which
is 1 1/2" thick, staggering the joints. You could also scarf the
joints, but that would not add much strength worth the extra trouble
in my opinion.

not sure using dumentional lumber for the shoe for the 630 would work, The 1/2 in ply will conform to the rocker of the bottom, while lumber be it 2 X 4s etc would conform and be difficult to make it solid. The idea of using treated stuff makes sense,, ed (I am the one Phill designed 630 for)

You put a baby in a cradle made of treated lumber? (Just kidding)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Checks and splits like crazy from my experience in building a cradle
> using 4 and 6 X's and treated fir plywood. This after bathing it in
> cuprinol.
>
> Nels

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:12 PM, prairiedog2332<arvent@...>wrote:
Checks and splits like crazy from my experience in building a cradle
using 4 and 6 X's and treated fir plywood.
Much of the pressure treated lumber we have in Northern Minnesota is Red Pine (Pinus resinosa and also known as Norway Pine) which takes pressure treatment without needing any pretreatment and seems pretty stable. Red Pine has some marvelous mechanical characteristics, close to Douglas Fir. Wet Red Pine can take tremendous abuse without breaking. I remember reading some years ago of a Russian company building sailboats out of pressure treated Baltic Pine, a tree closely related to Red Pine. Some PT boards are heavy and some weigh barely more than untreated. If the boat stays in the water, a shoe made of PT shouldn't check.

fred s.

Checks and splits like crazy from my experience in building a cradle
using 4 and 6 X's and treated fir plywood. This after bathing it in
cuprinol.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
>
> Do remember that PT is the worst of new growth lumber. It is wet from
the PT treatment, very susceptible to warping and dimensional changes.
If used, dry it out thoroughly before attempting to glue it. I've had
plenty of experience with it not holding paint. I don't see any reason
epoxy will stick any better for gluing or fiberglassing. I would
experiment drying pt and then gluing and coating and waiting a year or
two to see how it behaves before I risked a boat to it.
> Eric
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Fred Schumacher fredschum@ wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:14 PM, daschultz2000
> > daschultz8275@wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > From my reading of the MAIB 630 article, the bottom and "shoe"
would all be
> > > plywood, but Bruce Hallman has suggested the shoe might work in
dimensional
> > > lumber. The more I thought about it, the more likely such an
approach would
> > > be less expensive and perhaps more rot resistant, depending on the
wood
> > > selected.
> > >
> >
> > That's a good idea. Pressure treated lumber could be used. If the
epoxy
> > coating is abraded, it wouldn't matter. In fact, it wouldn't even
need
> > coating.
> >
> > fred s.
> >
>

In support of this statement, it is worth noting that many contractors
advise allowing new decks to weather for several months before painting.

V/R
Chris

On 8/24/2010 4:06 PM, Eric wrote:
> Do remember that PT is the worst of new growth lumber. It is wet from the PT treatment, very susceptible to warping and dimensional changes. If used, dry it out thoroughly before attempting to glue it. I've had plenty of experience with it not holding paint. I don't see any reason epoxy will stick any better for gluing or fiberglassing. I would experiment drying pt and then gluing and coating and waiting a year or two to see how it behaves before I risked a boat to it.
> Eric
>

Do remember that PT is the worst of new growth lumber. It is wet from the PT treatment, very susceptible to warping and dimensional changes. If used, dry it out thoroughly before attempting to glue it. I've had plenty of experience with it not holding paint. I don't see any reason epoxy will stick any better for gluing or fiberglassing. I would experiment drying pt and then gluing and coating and waiting a year or two to see how it behaves before I risked a boat to it.
Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:14 PM, daschultz2000
> <daschultz8275@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > From my reading of the MAIB 630 article, the bottom and "shoe" would all be
> > plywood, but Bruce Hallman has suggested the shoe might work in dimensional
> > lumber. The more I thought about it, the more likely such an approach would
> > be less expensive and perhaps more rot resistant, depending on the wood
> > selected.
> >
>
> That's a good idea. Pressure treated lumber could be used. If the epoxy
> coating is abraded, it wouldn't matter. In fact, it wouldn't even need
> coating.
>
> fred s.
>

> the 5/16" I used

Wow. 5/16" MDO would be the perfect plywood to use for building quick
and good Instant Boats!

On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:14 PM, daschultz2000<daschultz8275@...>wrote:
From my reading of the MAIB 630 article, the bottom and "shoe" would all be plywood, but Bruce Hallman has suggested the shoe might work in dimensional lumber. The more I thought about it, the more likely such an approach would be less expensive and perhaps more rot resistant, depending on the wood selected.

That's a good idea. Pressure treated lumber could be used. If the epoxy coating is abraded, it wouldn't matter. In fact, it wouldn't even need coating.

fred s.

John,

IIRC, the 5/16" I used was a special order thru Emerson/Crosscut.

I was in the shop all weekend. A deadline got moved up a week for the balance of that Welsford 'Janette' kit that I built... so I was in scramble mode. I'll be driving the mast, spars, skeg, and a few odds & ends up to my Bainbridge Island client tomorrow or Wednesday. I'm very sorry to have missed the boat show. Toledo is always one of my faves! I imagine it was the usual great time.

You as the NW Champeen??? Will wonders never cease? <G> Good thing I wasn't there, I'd have probably managed to ram you, and capsize the both of us... and the title would have stood vacant LOL

Cheers,
David G

******************

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> So you've actually seen Oly Panel 5/16" MDO, David? I know they list it,
> but I've heard that their distributors don't stock it... Also, where do
> you get small quantities of Signal MDO? I was talking to Louie this
> weekend about the trouble he had finding MDO not too many hundreds of
> miles from his place in Dirtland. Lumber Products in Eugene will only sell
> him a truckload, and they won't handle anything better than Crezon.
> Frustrated, he's decided to use Okuome for his new motorboat. <shrug>
> He'll end up spending a bunch for extra epoxy and glass. <sigh>
>
> Where were _you_ this weekend? I ended up becoming the NW Puddle Duck
> champion by default because Greyhound was the only PDR that showed up at
> the Toledo Wooden Boat Show. And I just drifted around aimlessly in Depot
> Slough, due to a slight problem with my boat that you'll hear about soon
> enough... <ahem>
>
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:08:04 -0700, David G wrote:
>
> > It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is
> > true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding
> > applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get
> > the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:
> >
> >http://olypanel.com/signMaking/
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality
> in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. (George
> Santayana)
>

So you've actually seen Oly Panel 5/16" MDO, David? I know they list it,
but I've heard that their distributors don't stock it... Also, where do
you get small quantities of Signal MDO? I was talking to Louie this
weekend about the trouble he had finding MDO not too many hundreds of
miles from his place in Dirtland. Lumber Products in Eugene will only sell
him a truckload, and they won't handle anything better than Crezon.
Frustrated, he's decided to use Okuome for his new motorboat. <shrug>
He'll end up spending a bunch for extra epoxy and glass. <sigh>

Where were _you_ this weekend? I ended up becoming the NW Puddle Duck
champion by default because Greyhound was the only PDR that showed up at
the Toledo Wooden Boat Show. And I just drifted around aimlessly in Depot
Slough, due to a slight problem with my boat that you'll hear about soon
enough... <ahem>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:08:04 -0700, David G wrote:

> It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is
> true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding
> applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get
> the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:
>
>http://olypanel.com/signMaking/

--
John (jkohnen@...)
To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality
in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. (George
Santayana)

From my reading of the MAIB 630 article, the bottom and "shoe" would all be plywood, but Bruce Hallman has suggested the shoe might work in dimensional lumber. The more I thought about it, the more likely such an approach would be less expensive and perhaps more rot resistant, depending on the wood selected.

Don

Does not sound old or crotchety to me - rather based on serious personal experience. Thanks for the contribution to my understanding.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----
From:John and Kathy Trussell
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Friday, August 20, 2010 4:15 PM
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: 630

I used MDO with Payson fg butt strap and stitch and glueWest and fg tape. Its been four years and so far everything is holding together,
I have lost my taste for filling and sanding epoxy and henceforth will build using glued plywood lapstrake and Meranti or sapele (either of which is more rot resistant than okoume). I readily admit that this is a matter of personal whim and that my decision may be misguided But then Im old and crotchety!
JohnT
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf OfSusanne@...
Sent:Friday, August 20, 2010 2:14 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: 630

Thanks.
- So how does it laminate in say 4 layers of factory-cured resin-plus-epoxy versus the plywood fiber-to-fiber-via-liquid-epoxy ?
- Which is stronger ?
- And is the Payson-Joint just a matter of perfect matching of 'valley' versus fiber/resin factory surface ?
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
From:David
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Friday, August 20, 2010 2:08 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: 630

It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:

http://olypanel.com/signMaking/

Cheers,
David G
Harbor Woodworks

************************

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff. Unfortunately, it is not
> available in ¼" thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built
> a boat out 0f 3/8's and the only imperfections I found were an occasional
> pin knot in one of the plys.
>
>
>
> I am of the opinion that MDO is good because highway departments set high
> specifications and buy large quantities to use for signs. Boat builders
> represent a much smaller market and we just don't have the economic clout to
> compel plywood manufacturers to build their products to our specs.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Bruce Hallman
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:44 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] 630
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...
> <mailto:shortdottedline%40comcast.net> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I
> build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very
> well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I
> wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials
> and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be
> surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it
> is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest.
> ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its
> length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few
> compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple
> of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much
> of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses,
> plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat
> panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them.
> I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than
> to see the continuing innovations from them!
> >
> > ed
> >
>
> I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
> very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
> resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
> handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
> hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
> sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
> those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
> do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.
>

I used MDO with Payson fg butt strap and ‘stitch and glue—West and fg tape. It’s been four years and so far everything is holding together,

I have lost my taste for filling and sanding epoxy and henceforth will build using glued plywood lapstrake and Meranti or sapele (either of which is more rot resistant than okoume). I readily admit that this is a matter of personal whim and that my decision may be misguided… But then I’m old and crotchety!

JohnT

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf OfSusanne@...
Sent:Friday, August 20, 2010 2:14 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: 630

Thanks.
- So how does it laminate in say 4 layers of factory-cured resin-plus-epoxy versus the plywood fiber-to-fiber-via-liquid-epoxy ?
- Which is stronger ?
- And is the Payson-Joint just a matter of perfect matching of 'valley' versus fiber/resin factory surface ?
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----
From:David
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Friday, August 20, 2010 2:08 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: 630

It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:

http://olypanel.com/signMaking/

Cheers,
David G
Harbor Woodworks

************************

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff. Unfortunately, it is not
> available in ¼" thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built
> a boat out 0f 3/8's and the only imperfections I found were an occasional
> pin knot in one of the plys.
>
>
>
> I am of the opinion that MDO is good because highway departments set high
> specifications and buy large quantities to use for signs. Boat builders
> represent a much smaller market and we just don't have the economic clout to
> compel plywood manufacturers to build their products to our specs.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Bruce Hallman
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:44 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] 630
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...
> <mailto:shortdottedline%40comcast.net> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I
> build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very
> well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I
> wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials
> and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be
> surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it
> is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest.
> ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its
> length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few
> compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple
> of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much
> of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses,
> plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat
> panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them.
> I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than
> to see the continuing innovations from them!
> >
> > ed
> >
>
> I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
> very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
> resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
> handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
> hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
> sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
> those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
> do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.
>

> On her scale we'd likely want to have seen a serious experiment on laminations of MDO

I agree with the wisdom of tests when working at this scale. I have
seen MDO in action when exposed to some really tough weathering. It
is specified sometimes by the DOT for long term use as highway signage
and it holds up real well.

Conventional boat sheathing is fiberglass and epoxy resin. MDO is
some kind of proprietary fiber and some kind of proprietary resin. It
still is fiber and resin, which echo's the fiber resin seen in
conventional boat sheathing.

Having just done some large scale flat panel building with Topaz, the
thing that I found surprising was that much of my effort creating a
flat and 'glossy paint' ready surface while on the flat, was lost when
I had to do the connections of the "side-bottom" and especially the
"side-topsides" joints. There was enough drip down (and grind off)
from the chine edge epoxy work that (according to my lack of ability
to achieve good fabric penetration, low viscosity, working against
wanting to control the drips, high viscosity---I opted to go for good
fabric penetration)

I found that I would have been time ahead if I had just left a coarse
surface while on the flat and not spent as much time finishing while
flat. In the end I needed to smear on a filler coat, and do the
'glossy' finish sanding work on the vertical anyway. Not the end of
the world, but about 60-80 extra manhours spent.

It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:

http://olypanel.com/signMaking/

Cheers,
David G
Harbor Woodworks

************************

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff. Unfortunately, it is not
> available in ¼" thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built
> a boat out 0f 3/8's and the only imperfections I found were an occasional
> pin knot in one of the plys.
>
>
>
> I am of the opinion that MDO is good because highway departments set high
> specifications and buy large quantities to use for signs. Boat builders
> represent a much smaller market and we just don't have the economic clout to
> compel plywood manufacturers to build their products to our specs.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Bruce Hallman
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:44 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] 630
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...
> <mailto:shortdottedline%40comcast.net> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I
> build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very
> well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I
> wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials
> and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be
> surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it
> is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest.
> ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its
> length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few
> compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple
> of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much
> of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses,
> plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat
> panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them.
> I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than
> to see the continuing innovations from them!
> >
> > ed
> >
>
> I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
> very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
> resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
> handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
> hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
> sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
> those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
> do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.
>

MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff. Unfortunately, it is not available in ¼” thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built a boat out 0f 3/8’s and the only imperfections I found were an occasional pin knot in one of the plys.

I am of the opinion that MDO is good because highway departments set high specifications and buy large quantities to use for signs. Boat builders represent a much smaller market and we just don’t have the economic clout to compel plywood manufacturers to build their products to our specs.

JohnT

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf OfBruce Hallman
Sent:Friday, August 20, 2010 11:44 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] 630

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I

build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest. ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses, plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them. I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than to see the continuing innovations from them!

>
> ed
>

I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.

Hello All,

the good thing is that only the 'outside' surfaces need sanding, and not much, if gravity is used for assembly of all panels small and full-length. Without drips, runs, bubbles etc. plus a coat of easily sandable light filler for cloth-weave cosmetics, the overall effort should be minimizable.

With just the 'outside' surfaces of concern, and the 'bilge/sole' likely covered in flooring anyway - if not covered in floorboards - there is only the outward-face areas to plan on. And below boot-top levels, cloth-weave will be filled quickly with bottom-paint if skim-coating light filler is not done. Which leaves significant topsides and deck(s) surface area, but with gravity-correct assembly principles should be controllable.

On her scale we'd likely want to have seen a serious experiment on laminations of MDO on bottom- and topsides-panels versus marine-ply and compare cost, effort and relative rot-resistance under epoxy&glass. Do 'Payson-Joints' work any differently in the MDO universe ?

In light of all this, a tractor-trailer load of 1/2" might not impress the floor-sander much after all.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----

From:Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Friday, August 20, 2010 11:43 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] 630

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest. ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses, plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them. I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than to see the continuing innovations from them!
>
> ed
>

I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest. ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses, plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them. I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than to see the continuing innovations from them!
>
> ed
>

While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest. ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses, plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them. I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than to see the continuing innovations from them!