Re: [bolger] Re: Interesting History Of The Box Keel

On 9/13/2010 11:31 AM, Peter wrote:

Calling it a flat bottomed boat with a boxed skeg starting 
mid-ship might be a better description.

I think it's also fair to say that William Atkin complicated the taxonomy by using the name for boats of a different shape, designed for a different purpose. Example here:http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/Everhope.html

On 9/13/2010 10:50 AM, sirdarnell wrote:

I wouldn't argue with calling it a boxed skeg.  Although the flat bottom at the front of the boat becomes the bottom of the skeg as it begins to descend from the boat just ahead of midship.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"<pvanderwaart@...>wrote:

You can't tell the two apart with out looking underneath.

I really should look this things up before adding my two cents, but off the top of my head is seems to me more correct to say the Sea Bright boats had a "box skeg". As best I remember, the keel, per se, is not a box.

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> Calling it a flat bottomed boat with a boxed skeg starting
> mid-ship might be a better description.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> One of the challenges in discussing boats is the elasticity of words and
> terms.
>
>
>
> One approach to obtaining buoyancy and capacity in a double ended hull is to
> design a hull which is double ended to the waterline and then flares to a
> transom. Coupled with a plank keel, boats of this type work well for
> operating off a beach. This approach is found in the New Jersey Seabright
> skiffs and in a type of boat known in Maine as a wherry. To add to the fun,
> a wherry in Great Britain is something else entirely.
>
>
>
> If you accept this explanation, a "wherry keel" differs from a "box keel" in
> that a "wherry keel" does not separate from the hull line until the aft
> third of the boat. A "box keel" is not faired into the forward part of the
> boat. This distinction becomes blurred if anti slap/pound pads are
> installed.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Jay K. Jeffries
> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 7:48 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Interesting History Of The Box Keel
>
>
>
>
>
> This incorrect, the original Sea Bright skiffs never had a box keel. This
> design was for used for commercial fishing from the ocean beaches of NJ and
> had to transit the surf to land their catch. Today's rendition can still be
> seen in the surf boat used by the life guards along this coast. There is no
> box keel. Please refer to Chappelle for the history and lines of this
> original American craft.
>
> R/Jay
>
> Naval Architect student and historian
>
>
>
>
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> sirdarnell
> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 7:39 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Interesting History Of The Box Keel
>
>
>
>
>
> The Sea Bright Skiff which was first appeared sometime in the mid-1800's
> also had a box keel. Bolger gifts were his knowledge of boat history and
> ability to combine old ideas in new ways.
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> >You can't tell the two apart with out looking underneath.
>
> I really should look this things up before adding my two cents, but off the top of my head is seems to me more correct to say the Sea Bright boats had a "box skeg". As best I remember, the keel, per se, is not a box.
>

>You can't tell the two apart with out looking underneath.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jay K. Jeffries" <bottomgun@...> wrote:
>
> This incorrect, the original Sea Bright skiffs never had a box keel. This
> design was for used for commercial fishing from the ocean beaches of NJ and
> had to transit the surf to land their catch. Today's rendition can still be
> seen in the surf boat used by the life guards along this coast. There is no
> box keel. Please refer to Chappelle for the history and lines of this
> original American craft.
>
> R/Jay
>
> Naval Architect student and historian
>
>
>
>
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> sirdarnell
> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 7:39 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Interesting History Of The Box Keel
>
>
>
>
>
> The Sea Bright Skiff which was first appeared sometime in the mid-1800's
> also had a box keel. Bolger gifts were his knowledge of boat history and
> ability to combine old ideas in new ways.
>

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:05 PM, prairiedog2332<arvent@...>wrote:

I think a refined example of that cutwater shape is Fiji.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Fiji%20Yawl/

Nels

Fiji does appear to be a logical result of continuing thinking about the box keel and cutwater. As several posters noted recently, a full box keel adds a lot of displacement to a boat, requiring more ballast or reduction in size of the main or sponson hull.

If Bolger's Sea of Peas concept is followed for the design of chined hulls, the curve in plan must match the curve in profile, to split the water equally and minimize turbulent flow across the chine. This is the ideal. The logical result is a deep bellied bottom and a bow transom. Even with the bow transom, the stem can end up too high out of the water, so the bottom curve can get flattened toward the bow, as in Micro.

Tropical boxfish (Ostraciidae spp.) are short, rectangular in cross-section, fish with four bony plates and chines, with all curves identical, proving the Sea of Peas morphology. The boxfish has such good fluid dynamics that Daimler copied it in the development of their Bionic concept car, which has a coefficient of drag of 0.19 while retaining a boxy shape.

By adding a box cutwater to the bow of a Sea of Peas hull, a sharp entry and some displacement is added to a bow transom high out of the water. By not continuing the cutwater into a full box keel, added displacement is avoided and a shallower draft is made possible. For the box keel to follow Sea of Peas, draft has to be half of beam. If a narrow box keel is chosen on a deep draft, the stem of the cutwater has to be placed far below the surface, making the boat harder to turn.

Fiji takes the advantages of the box cutwater and dispenses with the disadvantages. It's a logical design.

fred s.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:26 AM, mbevington mike_bevington@...wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > And his knowledge extended beyond American and Western types. He
bacame
> > familiar with the Japanese Yamato boats when he was there with the
Army of
> > Occupation after the war. You can see the influence in designs like
the
> > sponson sharpie "Gloucester Yawl" and the box keel designs.
> >
>
> In its July/August 2008 issue, Watercraft Magazine reprinted Phil's
1948
> article "Tokyo Bay Fishing Skiffs," originally written for The Rudder.
It
> was his first published work. The included photos clearly show a box
> cutwater.
>
> fred s.
>

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:26 AM, mbevington<mike_bevington@...>wrote:

And his knowledge extended beyond American and Western types. He bacame familiar with the Japanese Yamato boats when he was there with the Army of Occupation after the war. You can see the influence in designs like the sponson sharpie "Gloucester Yawl" and the box keel designs.

In its July/August 2008 issue, Watercraft Magazine reprinted Phil's 1948 article "Tokyo Bay Fishing Skiffs," originally written for The Rudder. It was his first published work. The included photos clearly show a box cutwater.

fred s.

>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" pvanderwaart@ wrote:
> >
> > > Does anyone have any info as to how the 'Alaska Motorsailer'
> > > design performs in practice,since this design has actually been

> >
>
> There is a scanned in article somewhere in the Bolger sites about the

>
> I recall the owner was very happy. Bolger's stated philosophy was

>
> Bolger expressed similar thoughts in his write up of the proposed

>
> Don
>

>
> > Does anyone have any info as to how the 'Alaska Motorsailer'
> > design performs in practice,since this design has actually been built.
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
>
> The Sea Bright Skiff which was first appeared sometime in the mid-1800's also had a box keel. Bolger gifts were his knowledge of boat history and ability to combine old ideas in new ways.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@> wrote:
> >
> > This is an old article written up in MAIB - can't recall when - but some
> > members may recall it. Eastman was well known for his tiny tug designs
> > such as Candu E-Z and his line of Aqua Casa houseboats. He offered plans
> > for one tug with a box keel.
> >
> >http://www.berkeley-engineering.com/buildingaperfect10.html
> >
> > I have a sketch of the boat he mentions - a chopped off tippy kayak with
> > an 8' Jonboat hull built over it. Very much like a Fastbrick with more
> > rounded bow transom.
> >
> > Interesting history thread I thought. Berkeley passed away in 2006 at 80
> > years.
> >
> >
> > The Box Keel is Back
> >
> > by Berkeley A. Eastman
> >
> > I read with great interest Phil Bolger's article about his Yawl Boat
> > design #651. It reminded me of a similar boat I built about 60 years
> > ago. My father was a career USCG officer and a naval architect. He would
> > design a small boat while he was on weather/ice patrol in the North
> > Atlantic for three to four months at a time. When he would return from
> > sea, we would gather the materials and build the newly-designed craft.
> > The boat would be taken to our summer home in South Wellfleet, Cape Cod,
> > about the first of July each year when we opened our home for the summer
> > months.
> >
> > I spent many happy hours sailing around Blacklish Creek in various
> > boats. When I was about 10 years old, I started building boat and
> > airplane models. My dad always encouraged me to design models of my own.
> > Two years later, I built a 12' plywood kayak of my own design. It was
> > 18" wide and extremely tippy. The next summer I decided to build a wider
> > boat. I didn't have enough materials on hand to build a complete beat,
> > so I decided to use my 12' tippy kayak as the keel for my new boat
> > design. Basically what I built was a john boat with the kayak as the box
> > keel.
> >
> > The new boat ended up 8' long because of the 8' sheet of plywood for the
> > bottom and sides, so I had to cut the last 4 feet off my kayak stern. I
> > borrowed a friend's outboard motor and we had lots of fun speeding
> > around Blacklish Creek that summer. My younger brothers and I used that
> > boat until 1943, when I enlisted in the United States Coast Guard for
> > the duration of World War II. When I came home after the war in 1946, my
> > boat was gone. None of my three younger brothers seemed to know what
> > happened to it.
> >
> > In 1952, after graduating from college, I started a boat building shop
> > in Azusa, California. One of my first boats was an advanced replica of
> > my old kayak keel boat. The big craze at that time in plywood boats was
> > V-bottom runabouts and sailboats. Needless to say, my box keel
> > flat-bottomed boat had no sales appeal. I built several hundred V-bottom
> > plywood runabouts and small cabin cruisers. I sold my boat building
> > business in 1958 and became a general building contractor and real
> > estate broker. I retired from that in 1975.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > In 1987 I designed several miniature plywood tug boats with flat bottoms
> > and plumb stems and sides, either electric or outboard powered. They all
> > were displacement hulls. The building plans were designed for the
> > firsttime boat builder using the tack and tape method. The plans are
> > sold by mail order. These boats were intended to use 8 hp outboards and
> > cruise at about 5 or 6 knots. After several of the boat builders started
> > to install bigger motors than recommended, such as 15 hp to 35 hp
> > outboards, higher speeds made the boats extremely dangerous.
> >
> > When the hull would hit a wake from another boat, it would plunge into
> > it and come to a complete stop, which could severely injure the
> > occupants. After learning of this, I needed to design a safe hull for
> > those speed demons, but easy to build. I remembered my box keel boat
> > from when I was a kid, so I designed my 10' and 11' tugs using a
> > modified box keel bottom with additional aft planing surface . Both of
> > these boats have ride and handling characteristics that are superb, even
> > at speeds of 25 mph.
> >
> > What goes around comes around. The box keel is back.
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> This is an old article written up in MAIB - can't recall when - but some
> members may recall it. Eastman was well known for his tiny tug designs
> such as Candu E-Z and his line of Aqua Casa houseboats. He offered plans
> for one tug with a box keel.
>
>http://www.berkeley-engineering.com/buildingaperfect10.html
>
> I have a sketch of the boat he mentions - a chopped off tippy kayak with
> an 8' Jonboat hull built over it. Very much like a Fastbrick with more
> rounded bow transom.
>
> Interesting history thread I thought. Berkeley passed away in 2006 at 80
> years.
>
>
> The Box Keel is Back
>
> by Berkeley A. Eastman
>
> I read with great interest Phil Bolger's article about his Yawl Boat
> design #651. It reminded me of a similar boat I built about 60 years
> ago. My father was a career USCG officer and a naval architect. He would
> design a small boat while he was on weather/ice patrol in the North
> Atlantic for three to four months at a time. When he would return from
> sea, we would gather the materials and build the newly-designed craft.
> The boat would be taken to our summer home in South Wellfleet, Cape Cod,
> about the first of July each year when we opened our home for the summer
> months.
>
> I spent many happy hours sailing around Blacklish Creek in various
> boats. When I was about 10 years old, I started building boat and
> airplane models. My dad always encouraged me to design models of my own.
> Two years later, I built a 12' plywood kayak of my own design. It was
> 18" wide and extremely tippy. The next summer I decided to build a wider
> boat. I didn't have enough materials on hand to build a complete beat,
> so I decided to use my 12' tippy kayak as the keel for my new boat
> design. Basically what I built was a john boat with the kayak as the box
> keel.
>
> The new boat ended up 8' long because of the 8' sheet of plywood for the
> bottom and sides, so I had to cut the last 4 feet off my kayak stern. I
> borrowed a friend's outboard motor and we had lots of fun speeding
> around Blacklish Creek that summer. My younger brothers and I used that
> boat until 1943, when I enlisted in the United States Coast Guard for
> the duration of World War II. When I came home after the war in 1946, my
> boat was gone. None of my three younger brothers seemed to know what
> happened to it.
>
> In 1952, after graduating from college, I started a boat building shop
> in Azusa, California. One of my first boats was an advanced replica of
> my old kayak keel boat. The big craze at that time in plywood boats was
> V-bottom runabouts and sailboats. Needless to say, my box keel
> flat-bottomed boat had no sales appeal. I built several hundred V-bottom
> plywood runabouts and small cabin cruisers. I sold my boat building
> business in 1958 and became a general building contractor and real
> estate broker. I retired from that in 1975.
>
> <snip>
>
> In 1987 I designed several miniature plywood tug boats with flat bottoms
> and plumb stems and sides, either electric or outboard powered. They all
> were displacement hulls. The building plans were designed for the
> firsttime boat builder using the tack and tape method. The plans are
> sold by mail order. These boats were intended to use 8 hp outboards and
> cruise at about 5 or 6 knots. After several of the boat builders started
> to install bigger motors than recommended, such as 15 hp to 35 hp
> outboards, higher speeds made the boats extremely dangerous.
>
> When the hull would hit a wake from another boat, it would plunge into
> it and come to a complete stop, which could severely injure the
> occupants. After learning of this, I needed to design a safe hull for
> those speed demons, but easy to build. I remembered my box keel boat
> from when I was a kid, so I designed my 10' and 11' tugs using a
> modified box keel bottom with additional aft planing surface . Both of
> these boats have ride and handling characteristics that are superb, even
> at speeds of 25 mph.
>
> What goes around comes around. The box keel is back.
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> This is an old article written up in MAIB - can't recall when - but some
> members may recall it. Eastman was well known for his tiny tug designs
> such as Candu E-Z and his line of Aqua Casa houseboats. He offered plans
> for one tug with a box keel.
>
>http://www.berkeley-engineering.com/buildingaperfect10.html
>
> I have a sketch of the boat he mentions - a chopped off tippy kayak with
> an 8' Jonboat hull built over it. Very much like a Fastbrick with more
> rounded bow transom.
>
> Interesting history thread I thought. Berkeley passed away in 2006 at 80
> years.
>
>
> The Box Keel is Back
>
> by Berkeley A. Eastman
>
> I read with great interest Phil Bolger's article about his Yawl Boat
> design #651. It reminded me of a similar boat I built about 60 years
> ago. My father was a career USCG officer and a naval architect. He would
> design a small boat while he was on weather/ice patrol in the North
> Atlantic for three to four months at a time. When he would return from
> sea, we would gather the materials and build the newly-designed craft.
> The boat would be taken to our summer home in South Wellfleet, Cape Cod,
> about the first of July each year when we opened our home for the summer
> months.
>
> I spent many happy hours sailing around Blacklish Creek in various
> boats. When I was about 10 years old, I started building boat and
> airplane models. My dad always encouraged me to design models of my own.
> Two years later, I built a 12' plywood kayak of my own design. It was
> 18" wide and extremely tippy. The next summer I decided to build a wider
> boat. I didn't have enough materials on hand to build a complete beat,
> so I decided to use my 12' tippy kayak as the keel for my new boat
> design. Basically what I built was a john boat with the kayak as the box
> keel.
>
> The new boat ended up 8' long because of the 8' sheet of plywood for the
> bottom and sides, so I had to cut the last 4 feet off my kayak stern. I
> borrowed a friend's outboard motor and we had lots of fun speeding
> around Blacklish Creek that summer. My younger brothers and I used that
> boat until 1943, when I enlisted in the United States Coast Guard for
> the duration of World War II. When I came home after the war in 1946, my
> boat was gone. None of my three younger brothers seemed to know what
> happened to it.
>
> In 1952, after graduating from college, I started a boat building shop
> in Azusa, California. One of my first boats was an advanced replica of
> my old kayak keel boat. The big craze at that time in plywood boats was
> V-bottom runabouts and sailboats. Needless to say, my box keel
> flat-bottomed boat had no sales appeal. I built several hundred V-bottom
> plywood runabouts and small cabin cruisers. I sold my boat building
> business in 1958 and became a general building contractor and real
> estate broker. I retired from that in 1975.
>
> <snip>
>
> In 1987 I designed several miniature plywood tug boats with flat bottoms
> and plumb stems and sides, either electric or outboard powered. They all
> were displacement hulls. The building plans were designed for the
> firsttime boat builder using the tack and tape method. The plans are
> sold by mail order. These boats were intended to use 8 hp outboards and
> cruise at about 5 or 6 knots. After several of the boat builders started
> to install bigger motors than recommended, such as 15 hp to 35 hp
> outboards, higher speeds made the boats extremely dangerous.
>
> When the hull would hit a wake from another boat, it would plunge into
> it and come to a complete stop, which could severely injure the
> occupants. After learning of this, I needed to design a safe hull for
> those speed demons, but easy to build. I remembered my box keel boat
> from when I was a kid, so I designed my 10' and 11' tugs using a
> modified box keel bottom with additional aft planing surface . Both of
> these boats have ride and handling characteristics that are superb, even
> at speeds of 25 mph.
>
> What goes around comes around. The box keel is back.
>

> Does anyone have any info as to how the 'Alaska Motorsailer'
> design performs in practice,since this design has actually been built.

The Box Keel is Back

byBerkeleyA. Eastman

I read with great interest Phil Bolger's article about his Yawl Boat design #651. It reminded me of a similar boat I built about 60 years ago. My father was a career USCG officer and a naval architect. He would design a small boat while he was on weather/ice patrol in theNorth Atlanticfor three to four months at a time. When he would return from sea, we would gather the materials and build the newly-designed craft. The boat would be taken to our summer home inSouth Wellfleet,Cape Cod, about the first of July each year when we opened our home for the summer months.

I spent many happy hours sailing around Blacklish Creek in various boats. When I was about 10 years old, I started building boat and airplane models. My dad always encouraged me to design models of my own. Two years later, I built a 12' plywood kayak of my own design. It was 18" wide and extremely tippy. The next summer I decided to build a wider boat. I didn't have enough materials on hand to build a complete beat, so I decided to use my 12' tippy kayak as the keel for my new boat design. Basically what I built was a john boat with the kayak as the box keel.

The new boat ended up 8' long because of the 8' sheet of plywood for the bottom and sides, so I had to cut the last 4 feet off my kayak stern. I borrowed a friend's outboard motor and we had lots of fun speeding around Blacklish Creek that summer. My younger brothers and I used that boat until 1943, when I enlisted in the United States Coast Guard for the duration of World War II. When I came home after the war in 1946, my boat was gone. None of my three younger brothers seemed to know what happened to it.

In 1952, after graduating from college, I started a boat building shop inAzusa,California. One of my first boats was an advanced replica of my old kayak keel boat. The big craze at that time in plywood boats was V-bottom runabouts and sailboats. Needless to say, my box keel flat-bottomed boat had no sales appeal. I built several hundred V-bottom plywood runabouts and small cabin cruisers. I sold my boat building business in 1958 and became a general building contractor and real estate broker. I retired from that in 1975.

<snip>

In 1987 I designed several miniature plywood tug boats with flat bottoms and plumb stems and sides, either electric or outboard powered. They all were displacement hulls. The building plans were designed for the firsttime boat builder using the tack and tape method. The plans are sold by mail order. These boats were intended to use 8 hp outboards and cruise at about 5 or 6 knots. After several of the boat builders started to install bigger motors than recommended, such as 15 hp to 35 hp outboards, higher speeds made the boats extremely dangerous.

When the hull would hit a wake from another boat, it would plunge into it and come to a complete stop, which could severely injure the occupants. After learning of this, I needed to design a safe hull for those speed demons, but easy to build. I remembered my box keel boat from when I was a kid, so I designed my 10' and 11' tugs using a modified box keel bottom with additional aft planing surface . Both of these boats have ride and handling characteristics that are superb, even at speeds of 25 mph.

What goes around comes around. The box keel is back.