RE: [bolger] Re: Micro rudder

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "etap28" <dave.irland@...> wrote:
>
>
> I'll tell you what's funny about those traditional catboats... if you make a high-aspect rudder, a typical modern blade, the weather helm is mitigated hugely. Obviously if you have a "barn door" sticking out the back, with about the same lever arm pulling against the tiller as the tiller is pulling back, it's gonna hurt--especially with a low aspect sail sticking out over one rail about 20 feet.
>
> Also, if you wanted to make a clever semi-balanced rudder, of a type Bolger actually used on a lot of his designs, you could totally eliminate the weather helm and hide that force vector in sideways torque against the rudder shaft
>
> I used to preach this all the time to the traditionalist cat boat types but nobody was all that interested . . . (PS I actually know first hand that it works. I've had a few catboats, including a Woods HOle Spritsail boat, one of about 3 in existence, and I made a nice foil shaped kick up rudder for it and it sailed like a bullet... the absence of massive weather helm obviously gets rid of a lot of drag).
>
>
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Gilham at Gig Harbor Yacht Sales" <wgilham@...> wrote:
>
> I also owned a Black Skimmer for Chesapeake sailing back when I lived in
> that area - always beat the racing sailboats back to the dock in Georgetown,
> exactly 'cause I could "cut the corners" around headlands, where the
> shallow-waters had no effect on me!
>
>
>
> Not as useful a cheating strategy out here on the Left Coast, as everywhere
> is pretty deep in Puget Sound - I can sail my 4.5 foot draft sailboat within
> a boat-length of the shore in most places of Puget Sound.
>
>
>
> Oh, and yes, the Cat-yawl rig always balanced just fine, with little stress
> from pulling on the tiller - just set the mizzen more or less tight..
>
>
>
> If ya wanna experience REAL "weather helm", go try a Cape Cod Catboat: my
> Marshall Sanderling could all but rip my arms off, till she just spun-out
> anyway - "lookin' ya in th' eye" as a downeaster would say.
>
>
>
> Regards, Wayne Gilham
>
> s/v "Hakuna Matata", 1985 Irwin 43cc now lying Foss Waterway, Tacoma WA
>
> ex-owner "Rayador", Bolger Black Skimmer built way back in early '70's in
> ME.
>
>
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> etap28
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:32 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro rudder
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Not a Micro, but a bolger box with a cat yawl rig, my Black Skimmer and I
> beat a well-sailed Soling with decent looking sails, tack for tack in smooth
> water, beating out of Edgartown harbor one day in about 10 knots. We
> overhauled him from about 200 feet behind, passing him after maybe 10
> minutes of sailing.. then I took off easterly over the 2 feet of shoal water
> which was fun
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> , "Eric"
> <eric14850@> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone dropped into a race of J-22s (or the like) to compare
> performance? Especially of the LM. I expect it would be a very traumatizing
> experience for the J-22s even if they were able to win on a triangular
> course. Random encounter boat to boat "race" experiences?
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> "William" <kingw@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Eric.
> > > My only experience with cat boats is with my LM. I have had a few times
> sailing when, after an hour or two of reaching my arms got tired. Not so
> tired that I couldn't steer. But tired. And yes- both hands on the tiller.
> Not because I couldn't steer with one arm, but because I have two arms.
> Either the boat is overcanvassed at this point or she has two reefs tied-in
> but winds are in the mid-20 knot range. In all these instances the boat was
> moving consistently well above hull speed before the tiller got heavy.
> During my trip to the North Channel, in Lake Huron this summer, I had one
> day when Pug was reaching (with two reefs in the main, winds in the mid- to
> high-20 knot range, and waves of 4.3 feet to 5.5 feet on the beam) and she
> showed 7.9 knots on the knotmeter (and 8.2 knots SOG on the GPS). It's fun
> sailing and the boat is safe, but the loads on the tiller and rudder are
> considerable. On this particular day my oak-and-pine tiller (which was quite
> handsome and has a sexy bend in the tiller) began to delaminate (even though
> it's cross-bolted and screwed). I had to replace the sexy tiller with my
> old, reliable, straight tiller (which is a re-purposed axe handle).
> > >
> > > Cat yawls balance wonderfully to windward. Downwind they require as much
> attention on the tiller as any sloop-rigged boat I have sailed.
> > > And it all depends on the sailing grounds and conditions sailors and
> builders expect to experience. Small lake sailors needn't worry about their
> wooden Micro rudder.
> > >
> > > Bill, in Texas
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> , "Eric"
> <eric14850@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going
> to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on
> modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the
> purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not
> have a heavy helm.
> > > > Eric
> > > >
> > >
> > > >>>>>snip
> > >
> >
>

>
>
>
> Not a Micro, but a bolger box with a cat yawl rig, my Black Skimmer and I beat a well-sailed Soling with
> decent looking sails, tack for tack in smooth water, beating out of Edgartown harbor one day in about 10
> knots. We overhauled him from about 200 feet behind, passing him after maybe 10 minutes of sailing..
> then I took off easterly over the 2 feet of shoal water which was fun

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone dropped into a race of J-22s (or the like) to compare performance? Especially of the LM. I expect it would be a very traumatizing experience for the J-22s even if they were able to win on a triangular course. Random encounter boat to boat "race" experiences?
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@> wrote:
> >
> > Eric.
> > My only experience with cat boats is with my LM. I have had a few times sailing when, after an hour or two of reaching my arms got tired. Not so tired that I couldn't steer. But tired. And yes- both hands on the tiller. Not because I couldn't steer with one arm, but because I have two arms. Either the boat is overcanvassed at this point or she has two reefs tied-in but winds are in the mid-20 knot range. In all these instances the boat was moving consistently well above hull speed before the tiller got heavy. During my trip to the North Channel, in Lake Huron this summer, I had one day when Pug was reaching (with two reefs in the main, winds in the mid- to high-20 knot range, and waves of 4.3 feet to 5.5 feet on the beam) and she showed 7.9 knots on the knotmeter (and 8.2 knots SOG on the GPS). It's fun sailing and the boat is safe, but the loads on the tiller and rudder are considerable. On this particular day my oak-and-pine tiller (which was quite handsome and has a sexy bend in the tiller) began to delaminate (even though it's cross-bolted and screwed). I had to replace the sexy tiller with my old, reliable, straight tiller (which is a re-purposed axe handle).
> >
> > Cat yawls balance wonderfully to windward. Downwind they require as much attention on the tiller as any sloop-rigged boat I have sailed.
> > And it all depends on the sailing grounds and conditions sailors and builders expect to experience. Small lake sailors needn't worry about their wooden Micro rudder.
> >
> > Bill, in Texas
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not have a heavy helm.
> > > Eric
> > >
> >
> > >>>>>snip
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dir_cobb" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
>
> Dear all
>
> As I read this thread about fighting the tiller I was taken back to the plans of my Oldshoe which include:
>
> "Tiller batten... bored to take movable pins to hold rudder at various angles..."
>
> I had often asked myself why this was designed into the plans for the mizzen rigged boat (self steering and all that). I believe I now have the answer. PCB appears to have thought of tired arms going downwind and running and designed the solution into the boat.
>
> Does Micro also have one in the plans? I couldn't see the point of it so never fitted it in Oldshoe. Now I do and shall... All credit to PCB.(Doesn't stop your needing a strong rudder though).
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> David
>

> triangular course. Random encounter boat to boat "race" experiences?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Eric.
> My only experience with cat boats is with my LM. I have had a few times sailing when, after an hour or two of reaching my arms got tired. Not so tired that I couldn't steer. But tired. And yes- both hands on the tiller. Not because I couldn't steer with one arm, but because I have two arms. Either the boat is overcanvassed at this point or she has two reefs tied-in but winds are in the mid-20 knot range. In all these instances the boat was moving consistently well above hull speed before the tiller got heavy. During my trip to the North Channel, in Lake Huron this summer, I had one day when Pug was reaching (with two reefs in the main, winds in the mid- to high-20 knot range, and waves of 4.3 feet to 5.5 feet on the beam) and she showed 7.9 knots on the knotmeter (and 8.2 knots SOG on the GPS). It's fun sailing and the boat is safe, but the loads on the tiller and rudder are considerable. On this particular day my oak-and-pine tiller (which was quite handsome and has a sexy bend in the tiller) began to delaminate (even though it's cross-bolted and screwed). I had to replace the sexy tiller with my old, reliable, straight tiller (which is a re-purposed axe handle).
>
> Cat yawls balance wonderfully to windward. Downwind they require as much attention on the tiller as any sloop-rigged boat I have sailed.
> And it all depends on the sailing grounds and conditions sailors and builders expect to experience. Small lake sailors needn't worry about their wooden Micro rudder.
>
> Bill, in Texas
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> >
> > Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not have a heavy helm.
> > Eric
> >
>
> >>>>>snip
>

From:Myles J. Swift

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, November 10, 2010 2:18 PM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Micro rudder

 

This discussion has got me wondering if maybe you might need to rake the mast back a bit. On my Micro it takes a good strong wind ( over 20 for sure) to develop any weather helm if the mizzen is not doing anything. I used to have a hard time getting people to believe it had so much lee helm without the mizzen in play.

MylesJ

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
>
> This discussion has got me wondering if maybe you might need to rake the
> mast back a bit. On my Micro it takes a good strong wind ( over 20 for sure)
> to develop any weather helm if the mizzen is not doing anything. I used to
> have a hard time getting people to believe it had so much lee helm without
> the mizzen in play.
>
>
>
> MylesJ
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> I am fascinated by these good accounts of sailing Micros or Long Micros on beam reaches in 20+ winds. I have come close to these conditions for long periods on Lake Champlain, with lesser seas and perhaps just-under 20 kt winds, but I was on two separate 7-hour sailing days working upwind; There, the boat sailed herself, without a reef, and the tiller unlashed. I literally bestirred myself to steer only to push the helm alee to tack, then let it go again. On a reach those conditions, in big seas I can imagine a lot of steering, but I want to ask, if you find much weather helm as such, how are you setting your mizzen? For that matter, how are you setting your main?
> Behind the questions is my habit of luffing the mizzen, on a reach, even to the point where it's not driving at all, if it is causing much weather helm; and my habit of easing the main on a reach to the point where it is working as a foil, dividing and reshaping the wind, almost as when beating. I do see, watching other boats, that this is not common practice, and I am not sure that it is fastest, but I like it anyway, for its maximizing the forward vector of wind-force an lessening heeling moment. It should also lessen weather helm -- yes? or no? ---Mason
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:19 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro rudder
>
>
>
> Eric.
> My only experience with cat boats is with my LM. I have had a few times sailing when, after an hour or two of reaching my arms got tired. Not so tired that I couldn't steer. But tired. And yes- both hands on the tiller. Not because I couldn't steer with one arm, but because I have two arms. Either the boat is overcanvassed at this point or she has two reefs tied-in but winds are in the mid-20 knot range. In all these instances the boat was moving consistently well above hull speed before the tiller got heavy. During my trip to the North Channel, in Lake Huron this summer, I had one day when Pug was reaching (with two reefs in the main, winds in the mid- to high-20 knot range, and waves of 4.3 feet to 5.5 feet on the beam) and she showed 7.9 knots on the knotmeter (and 8.2 knots SOG on the GPS). It's fun sailing and the boat is safe, but the loads on the tiller and rudder are considerable. On this particular day my oak-and-pine tiller (which was quite handsome and has a sexy bend in the tiller) began to delaminate (even though it's cross-bolted and screwed). I had to replace the sexy tiller with my old, reliable, straight tiller (which is a re-purposed axe handle).
>
> Cat yawls balance wonderfully to windward. Downwind they require as much attention on the tiller as any sloop-rigged boat I have sailed.
> And it all depends on the sailing grounds and conditions sailors and builders expect to experience. Small lake sailors needn't worry about their wooden Micro rudder.
>
> Bill, in Texas
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> >
> > Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not have a heavy helm.
> > Eric
> >
>
> >>>>>snip
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Eric.
> My only experience with cat boats is with my LM. I have had a few times sailing when, after an hour or two of reaching my arms got tired. Not so tired that I couldn't steer. But tired. And yes- both hands on the tiller. Not because I couldn't steer with one arm, but because I have two arms. Either the boat is overcanvassed at this point or she has two reefs tied-in but winds are in the mid-20 knot range. In all these instances the boat was moving consistently well above hull speed before the tiller got heavy. During my trip to the North Channel, in Lake Huron this summer, I had one day when Pug was reaching (with two reefs in the main, winds in the mid- to high-20 knot range, and waves of 4.3 feet to 5.5 feet on the beam) and she showed 7.9 knots on the knotmeter (and 8.2 knots SOG on the GPS). It's fun sailing and the boat is safe, but the loads on the tiller and rudder are considerable. On this particular day my oak-and-pine tiller (which was quite handsome and has a sexy bend in the tiller) began to delaminate (even though it's cross-bolted and screwed). I had to replace the sexy tiller with my old, reliable, straight tiller (which is a re-purposed axe handle).
>
> Cat yawls balance wonderfully to windward. Downwind they require as much attention on the tiller as any sloop-rigged boat I have sailed.
> And it all depends on the sailing grounds and conditions sailors and builders expect to experience. Small lake sailors needn't worry about their wooden Micro rudder.
>
> Bill, in Texas
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> >
> > Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not have a heavy helm.
> > Eric
> >
>
> >>>>>snip
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> I am fascinated by these good accounts of sailing Micros or Long Micros on beam reaches in 20+ winds. I have come close to these conditions for long periods on Lake Champlain, with lesser seas and perhaps just-under 20 kt winds, but I was on two separate 7-hour sailing days working upwind; There, the boat sailed herself, without a reef, and the tiller unlashed. I literally bestirred myself to steer only to push the helm alee to tack, then let it go again. On a reach those conditions, in big seas I can imagine a lot of steering, but I want to ask, if you find much weather helm as such, how are you setting your mizzen? For that matter, how are you setting your main?
> Behind the questions is my habit of luffing the mizzen, on a reach, even to the point where it's not driving at all, if it is causing much weather helm; and my habit of easing the main on a reach to the point where it is working as a foil, dividing and reshaping the wind, almost as when beating. I do see, watching other boats, that this is not common practice, and I am not sure that it is fastest, but I like it anyway, for its maximizing the forward vector of wind-force an lessening heeling moment. It should also lessen weather helm -- yes? or no? ---Mason
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:19 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro rudder
>
>
>
> Eric.
> My only experience with cat boats is with my LM. I have had a few times sailing when, after an hour or two of reaching my arms got tired. Not so tired that I couldn't steer. But tired. And yes- both hands on the tiller. Not because I couldn't steer with one arm, but because I have two arms. Either the boat is overcanvassed at this point or she has two reefs tied-in but winds are in the mid-20 knot range. In all these instances the boat was moving consistently well above hull speed before the tiller got heavy. During my trip to the North Channel, in Lake Huron this summer, I had one day when Pug was reaching (with two reefs in the main, winds in the mid- to high-20 knot range, and waves of 4.3 feet to 5.5 feet on the beam) and she showed 7.9 knots on the knotmeter (and 8.2 knots SOG on the GPS). It's fun sailing and the boat is safe, but the loads on the tiller and rudder are considerable. On this particular day my oak-and-pine tiller (which was quite handsome and has a sexy bend in the tiller) began to delaminate (even though it's cross-bolted and screwed). I had to replace the sexy tiller with my old, reliable, straight tiller (which is a re-purposed axe handle).
>
> Cat yawls balance wonderfully to windward. Downwind they require as much attention on the tiller as any sloop-rigged boat I have sailed.
> And it all depends on the sailing grounds and conditions sailors and builders expect to experience. Small lake sailors needn't worry about their wooden Micro rudder.
>
> Bill, in Texas
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> >
> > Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not have a heavy helm.
> > Eric
> >
>
> >>>>>snip
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
> I used a bronze plate screwed onto the keel with bronze screws and then mounted the rudder with a bronze rod through a hole in the aft portion of the plate. the rod was set into the rudder with epoxy goo. There were bronze washers to serve as a bearing surface. Seemed pretty strong and workable. I could drop the rudder with little fuss by removing the screws. The tiller was a little goofy, but still worked ok. That is the area where a little ingenuity could improve the feel of the helm.
>
> As for the rudder loading up, this was not a problem with the rudder being under the hull and immediately abaft the keel.
>
> After selling my Micro to an appreciative new owner (Rob, thanks for the nice article on the cruise in Pleasant Bay. What a perfect boat for that cruise) I purchased an old Cape Cod catboat against the advice of some very good sailors. Talk about the rudder loading up in a breeze. In the afternoon SW hurricane breeze on Buzzards Bay, it was always two hands and legs to keep the boat going straight to windward. The Micro doesn't do that. The mizzen and main balance each other and the angle of heel is so small that the rudder maintains it's angle of attack through the duration in about up to 20 kts. If anything, I was adjusting for lee helm due to my newness at the cat ketch rig.
>
> The barn door rudder on a catboat is another deal altogether, I will never own a boat so rigged again. After a season of sailing, I had arms like Popeye.
>
> David Jost
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dennislancaster36" <dennislancaster36@...> wrote:
>
> I haven't sailed my OldShoe in 20 knot winds, but have run off wind in 10+ winds. I like to place my main and mizzen "wing on wing".. she moves like a witch. Helm is light and predictable.
>
> Dennis
> OldShoe "Pearl"
> Bellingham, WA.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@> wrote:
> >
> > I am fascinated by these good accounts of sailing Micros or Long Micros on beam reaches in 20+ winds. I have come close to these conditions for long periods on Lake Champlain, with lesser seas and perhaps just-under 20 kt winds, but I was on two separate 7-hour sailing days working upwind; There, the boat sailed herself, without a reef, and the tiller unlashed. I literally bestirred myself to steer only to push the helm alee to tack, then let it go again. On a reach those conditions, in big seas I can imagine a lot of steering, but I want to ask, if you find much weather helm as such, how are you setting your mizzen? For that matter, how are you setting your main?
> > Behind the questions is my habit of luffing the mizzen, on a reach, even to the point where it's not driving at all, if it is causing much weather helm; and my habit of easing the main on a reach to the point where it is working as a foil, dividing and reshaping the wind, almost as when beating. I do see, watching other boats, that this is not common practice, and I am not sure that it is fastest, but I like it anyway, for its maximizing the forward vector of wind-force an lessening heeling moment. It should also lessen weather helm -- yes? or no? ---Mason
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: William
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:19 AM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro rudder
> >
> >
> >
> > Eric.
> > My only experience with cat boats is with my LM. I have had a few times sailing when, after an hour or two of reaching my arms got tired. Not so tired that I couldn't steer. But tired. And yes- both hands on the tiller. Not because I couldn't steer with one arm, but because I have two arms. Either the boat is overcanvassed at this point or she has two reefs tied-in but winds are in the mid-20 knot range. In all these instances the boat was moving consistently well above hull speed before the tiller got heavy. During my trip to the North Channel, in Lake Huron this summer, I had one day when Pug was reaching (with two reefs in the main, winds in the mid- to high-20 knot range, and waves of 4.3 feet to 5.5 feet on the beam) and she showed 7.9 knots on the knotmeter (and 8.2 knots SOG on the GPS). It's fun sailing and the boat is safe, but the loads on the tiller and rudder are considerable. On this particular day my oak-and-pine tiller (which was quite handsome and has a sexy bend in the tiller) began to delaminate (even though it's cross-bolted and screwed). I had to replace the sexy tiller with my old, reliable, straight tiller (which is a re-purposed axe handle).
> >
> > Cat yawls balance wonderfully to windward. Downwind they require as much attention on the tiller as any sloop-rigged boat I have sailed.
> > And it all depends on the sailing grounds and conditions sailors and builders expect to experience. Small lake sailors needn't worry about their wooden Micro rudder.
> >
> > Bill, in Texas
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not have a heavy helm.
> > > Eric
> > >
> >
> > >>>>>snip
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> I am fascinated by these good accounts of sailing Micros or Long Micros on beam reaches in 20+ winds. I have come close to these conditions for long periods on Lake Champlain, with lesser seas and perhaps just-under 20 kt winds, but I was on two separate 7-hour sailing days working upwind; There, the boat sailed herself, without a reef, and the tiller unlashed. I literally bestirred myself to steer only to push the helm alee to tack, then let it go again. On a reach those conditions, in big seas I can imagine a lot of steering, but I want to ask, if you find much weather helm as such, how are you setting your mizzen? For that matter, how are you setting your main?
> Behind the questions is my habit of luffing the mizzen, on a reach, even to the point where it's not driving at all, if it is causing much weather helm; and my habit of easing the main on a reach to the point where it is working as a foil, dividing and reshaping the wind, almost as when beating. I do see, watching other boats, that this is not common practice, and I am not sure that it is fastest, but I like it anyway, for its maximizing the forward vector of wind-force an lessening heeling moment. It should also lessen weather helm -- yes? or no? ---Mason
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:19 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro rudder
>
>
>
> Eric.
> My only experience with cat boats is with my LM. I have had a few times sailing when, after an hour or two of reaching my arms got tired. Not so tired that I couldn't steer. But tired. And yes- both hands on the tiller. Not because I couldn't steer with one arm, but because I have two arms. Either the boat is overcanvassed at this point or she has two reefs tied-in but winds are in the mid-20 knot range. In all these instances the boat was moving consistently well above hull speed before the tiller got heavy. During my trip to the North Channel, in Lake Huron this summer, I had one day when Pug was reaching (with two reefs in the main, winds in the mid- to high-20 knot range, and waves of 4.3 feet to 5.5 feet on the beam) and she showed 7.9 knots on the knotmeter (and 8.2 knots SOG on the GPS). It's fun sailing and the boat is safe, but the loads on the tiller and rudder are considerable. On this particular day my oak-and-pine tiller (which was quite handsome and has a sexy bend in the tiller) began to delaminate (even though it's cross-bolted and screwed). I had to replace the sexy tiller with my old, reliable, straight tiller (which is a re-purposed axe handle).
>
> Cat yawls balance wonderfully to windward. Downwind they require as much attention on the tiller as any sloop-rigged boat I have sailed.
> And it all depends on the sailing grounds and conditions sailors and builders expect to experience. Small lake sailors needn't worry about their wooden Micro rudder.
>
> Bill, in Texas
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> >
> > Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not have a heavy helm.
> > Eric
> >
>
> >>>>>snip
>

----- Original Message -----

From:William

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:19 AM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Micro rudder

 

Eric.
My only experience with cat boats is with my LM. I have had a few times sailing when, after an hour or two of reaching my arms got tired. Not so tired that I couldn't steer. But tired. And yes- both hands on the tiller. Not because I couldn't steer with one arm, but because I have two arms. Either the boat is overcanvassed at this point or she has two reefs tied-in but winds are in the mid-20 knot range. In all these instances the boat was moving consistently well above hull speed before the tiller got heavy. During my trip to the North Channel, in Lake Huron this summer, I had one day when Pug was reaching (with two reefs in the main, winds in the mid- to high-20 knot range, and waves of 4.3 feet to 5.5 feet on the beam) and she showed 7.9 knots on the knotmeter (and 8.2 knots SOG on the GPS). It's fun sailing and the boat is safe, but the loads on the tiller and rudder are considerable. On this particular day my oak-and-pine tiller (which was quite handsome and has a sexy bend in the tiller) began to delaminate (even though it's cross-bolted and screwed). I had to replace the sexy tiller with my old, reliable, straight tiller (which is a re-purposed axe handle).

Cat yawls balance wonderfully to windward. Downwind they require as much attention on the tiller as any sloop-rigged boat I have sailed.
And it all depends on the sailing grounds and conditions sailors and builders expect to experience. Small lake sailors needn't worry about their wooden Micro rudder.

Bill, in Texas

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
>
> Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not have a heavy helm.
> Eric
>

>>>>>snip

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
>
> Two hands on a little boat reaching??? Down wind nearly as bad? Going to windward with a genoa jib usually produces the most weather helm on modern boats. Why so much weather helm on such a small boat? I thought the purpose of a cat yawl was to get good balance on all points of sail and not have a heavy helm.
> Eric
>

>>>>>snip

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Rod,
> The forces on the rudder and tiller can be considerable when sailing a beam reach and running, which is the strong-suit of these boats. The stock plans call for a wooden rudder stock with a wooden blade. I think that's weak sauce, primarily because the joint where the blade meets the rudder stock is prone to cracking and separating. I have sailed reaches when I had to use both hands on the tiller to keep my Long Micro on course and I was working my arms. The good news is that these boats FLY on these points of sail and it's a blast. But you don't want your rudder blade falling off. Roger Keyes, during his trip to Kangaroo Island, describes having to reinforce his blade-to-rudder-stock attachment by binding with rope or twine.
>
> I suggest welding a rudder stock and tiller blade from sheet steel (or stainless if you are independently wealthy). I made mine myself from a sheet of steel and a length of automobile exhaust pipe. You can purchase the steel and cut it with a jig-saw. I welded mine too, but you could take the assembly to a shop and have them weld it. Even an automobile exhaust shop could weld it. Then coat the whole assembly in fiberglass and epoxy (I strongly suggest fiberglass, and not just coating with epoxy. The epoxy will chip and once the steel starts to rust, things will get ugly). If you want to see pictures of how I built mine, there's pretty decent detail in my Youtube "building Long Micro video." Look around 2:00 minutes, and 2:37 for the rudder-head detail.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vXqmS-q9Mc
>
> If you are building the regular cabin Micro, the rigging should be similar to my LM (if you're building a navigator, disregard). I've posted two videos which show how I routed my halyard and snotter lines on my LM. They are Boring (with a capital B) but might give you some ideas.
>http://www.youtube.com/user/BillKingOhio#p/u/2/NvEW0kbT-EE
>http://www.youtube.com/user/BillKingOhio#p/u/3/L7n0xHuHMLs
>
> Bill, in Texas
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 12:35 PM, rod_cahill <rod_cahill@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I am now at the stage of making the rudder and tiller but thought it best to consult the brains trust first. Does anybody have any improvements on the stock standard bolger rudder/tiller assembly that they can share with me? Any problems with the standard setup?
> > > Also, my micro has the mast setup on partners built into the bow like the long micro and the foredeck will be built in with access from inside the cabin. I am wanting to see a picture with the exact placement of all cleats, blocks, etc on the foredeck so I can fit them before closing off the deck. Thankyou.
> > >
> > > Rod Cahill
> > > Bowning (near Canberra)
> > > New South Wales
> > > Australia
> > >
> >
> >
> > You mention 'cabin' not 'cuddy'. Are you building the cabin version,
> > the Navigator Micro?
> >
> > My opinion is that the rudder tiller cannot really be improved from
> > the plans. (There is a bit of a detailing issue of making the hole
> > shroud through the bulkhead tight from outboard engine exhaust).
> >
> > The rigging and sheeting of a Navigator Micro rig depends on the
> > detailing of the cabin windows, and the choices you make for the mast
> > stepping and this gets complicated quick.
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@...> wrote:
Rod,

I am working on modifying the design of a Chebacco rudder from the keel mounted door type to a semi-balanced type. The section is also going to be a NACA 0012 foil. This is probably not something that you would contemplate given where you are up to - but maybe there are some ideas there.

I based some of my work on the Chebacco RD design done by Bolger for Ben Ho:

http://benho2.tripod.com/boatbuilding/boat_update1.htm

My progress to date is shown on my website:

http://sites.google.com/site/warrandytewoodenboat/Warrandyte-Wooden-Boats/file-cabinet/foil-section-rudder

As it is not finished I can't tell you if it will work or not.

Regards,

Andrew

On 11/8/2010 1:53 PM, Myles J. Swift wrote:

Use bronze fasteners if your boat will live in the water

V/R
Chris

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 12:35 PM, rod_cahill <rod_cahill@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I am now at the stage of making the rudder and tiller but thought it best to consult the brains trust first. Does anybody have any improvements on the stock standard bolger rudder/tiller assembly that they can share with me? Any problems with the standard setup?
> > Also, my micro has the mast setup on partners built into the bow like the long micro and the foredeck will be built in with access from inside the cabin. I am wanting to see a picture with the exact placement of all cleats, blocks, etc on the foredeck so I can fit them before closing off the deck. Thankyou.
> >
> > Rod Cahill
> > Bowning (near Canberra)
> > New South Wales
> > Australia
> >
>
>
> You mention 'cabin' not 'cuddy'. Are you building the cabin version,
> the Navigator Micro?
>
> My opinion is that the rudder tiller cannot really be improved from
> the plans. (There is a bit of a detailing issue of making the hole
> shroud through the bulkhead tight from outboard engine exhaust).
>
> The rigging and sheeting of a Navigator Micro rig depends on the
> detailing of the cabin windows, and the choices you make for the mast
> stepping and this gets complicated quick.
>

>
>
>
> Hi,
> I am now at the stage of making the rudder and tiller but thought it best to consult the brains trust first. Does anybody have any improvements on the stock standard bolger rudder/tiller assembly that they can share with me? Any problems with the standard setup?
> Also, my micro has the mast setup on partners built into the bow like the long micro and the foredeck will be built in with access from inside the cabin. I am wanting to see a picture with the exact placement of all cleats, blocks, etc on the foredeck so I can fit them before closing off the deck. Thankyou.
>
> Rod Cahill
> Bowning (near Canberra)
> New South Wales
> Australia
>