Re: Out and sailing quickly? FMS)

<having a forward location for the downhaul for days with mostly <windward work and a slightly further aft location for days with mostly <off-wind work.

Hmmm, I should play with this on my lugs.

Thanks Gary.

Reed

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "captreed@..." <captreed@...> wrote:

>
> <For example, Bolger show more of the foot of the dipping lug extending <in front of the mast that with the balanced lug, and I found when <switching from a dippling to a balance lug that does make a difference.
>
> How does this make a difference Gary?
>
> Lots of books and groups on Chinese junks and few about Lugs. Its a puzzlement when a balanced lug will go windward so much better.
>
> Reed
>

When I converted from the dipping to the balanced lugger, a boom was added to the sail and everthing else remained the same, including the length of the foot in front of the mast. The boat reached and ran well, but hard on the wind it was stodgy. Couldn't figure it out until I checked Bolger's book and noticed that the balanced lug didn't extend as far in front of the mast along the foot as the dipping lug did. The downhaul was moved forward on the boom (reducing the length of the foot forward of the mast) and -- voila! -- windward performace was drmatically improved. Chuck over at Duckworks says he can slide the downhaul back and forth on a balanced lug and it will find a sweet spot for windward work. I've also sometimes followed his example on smaller balanced lugs of having a forward location for the downhaul for days with mostly windward work and a slightly further aft location for days with mostly off-wind work. That helps reduce some of the weather helm when a balanced lug is eased on a reach or run (raising the centerboard or leeboard also helps . . .)

Gary

<For example, Bolger show more of the foot of the dipping lug extending <in front of the mast that with the balanced lug, and I found when <switching from a dippling to a balance lug that does make a difference.

How does this make a difference Gary?

Lots of books and groups on Chinese junks and few about Lugs. Its a puzzlement when a balanced lug will go windward so much better.

Reed

Spritsails and Lugsails by John Leather is a very good source as well.http://www.amazon.com/Spritsails-Lugsails-John-Leather/dp/0877429987His book on the gaff rig is even better.http://www.amazon.com/Gaff-Rig-Handbook-Techniques-Developments/dp/1408114402/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292555278&sr=1-1Bolger's book 101 Small Boat Rigs is absolutely necessary if one cares to ponder rig options rationally.
Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <gbship@...> wrote:
>
> Right on, Bruce. That's probably the best source of information around. Funny, there are books and books on the Chinese lug, but almost nothing but Bolger's writings on the other lug rigs. Even small details in these chapters can show a lot, even if not explicitly written about. For example, Bolger show more of the foot of the dipping lug extending in front of the mast that with the balanced lug, and I found when switching from a dippling to a balance lug that does make a difference.
>
> Gary
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
> >
> > > You, Lugnut....I agree.
> >
> >
> > For the best discussion of the advantages of the various lug rigs, I
> > really recommend reading the lug rig chapters in Bolger's book _103
> > Sailing Rigs_. At the root, lug sails are favored 'working sails' due
> > to their simplicity, economy and rugged toughness. This is opposed to
> > the high performance stayed sail rigs, (like most modern sloop rigs)
> > which essentially are meant to cheat racing committee rules at the
> > expense of complexity and cost.
> >
>
http://www.amazon.com/Spritsails-Lugsails-John-Leather/dp/0877429987

Right on, Bruce. That's probably the best source of information around. Funny, there are books and books on the Chinese lug, but almost nothing but Bolger's writings on the other lug rigs. Even small details in these chapters can show a lot, even if not explicitly written about. For example, Bolger show more of the foot of the dipping lug extending in front of the mast that with the balanced lug, and I found when switching from a dippling to a balance lug that does make a difference.

Gary

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> > You, Lugnut....I agree.
>
>
> For the best discussion of the advantages of the various lug rigs, I
> really recommend reading the lug rig chapters in Bolger's book _103
> Sailing Rigs_. At the root, lug sails are favored 'working sails' due
> to their simplicity, economy and rugged toughness. This is opposed to
> the high performance stayed sail rigs, (like most modern sloop rigs)
> which essentially are meant to cheat racing committee rules at the
> expense of complexity and cost.
>

> You, Lugnut....I agree.

For the best discussion of the advantages of the various lug rigs, I
really recommend reading the lug rig chapters in Bolger's book _103
Sailing Rigs_. At the root, lug sails are favored 'working sails' due
to their simplicity, economy and rugged toughness. This is opposed to
the high performance stayed sail rigs, (like most modern sloop rigs)
which essentially are meant to cheat racing committee rules at the
expense of complexity and cost.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <gbship@...> wrote:

>
> A balanced lug would seem like a more logical alternative to the dipping lug -- self tending, no standing rigging needed, easy to reef.
>
> Gary

You, Lugnut....I agree.

Reed

A balanced lug would seem like a more logical alternative to the dipping lug -- self tending, no standing rigging needed, easy to reef.

Gary

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> The FMS sailing rig was later upgraded to a gaff with self-tending jib
> (requiring stays), dual rudders and two leeboards.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Fast%20Motor\
> %20Sailer%20%23601/
>
> Not nearly as "handy" or trailerable though. More likely a full-time
> slip required.
>
> In e-mail discussions with Michalak it points out a major failing of
> this type of design. It won't plane well with the sail rig interference
> and without a very big motor nor sail well dragging that heavy stern.
>
> 16 mph not all that bad, but that is maybe with the 70 wide-open.
>
> Nels
>

And the FMS is 4' shorter making for easier trailering and storage. IMO the rig is reasonable since it is on a motorsailer where one expects to spend significant time under power.

Don

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> > Shallow water and about the size of Macgregor
> > still leaves a lot of options.
>
> The Bolger Fast Motorsailer is pretty close to being a home-built Macgregor...
>
> For my taste, the Fast Motorsailer has much better ergonomics that any Macgregor, but the sailing rig would take some getting used to.
>

The FMS sailing rig was later upgraded to a gaff with self-tending jib
(requiring stays), dual rudders and two leeboards.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Fast%20Motor\
%20Sailer%20%23601/

Not nearly as "handy" or trailerable though. More likely a full-time
slip required.

In e-mail discussions with Michalak it points out a major failing of
this type of design. It won't plane well with the sail rig interference
and without a very big motor nor sail well dragging that heavy stern.

16 mph not all that bad, but that is maybe with the 70 wide-open.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> > Shallow water and about the size of Macgregor
> > still leaves a lot of options.
>
> The Bolger Fast Motorsailer is pretty close to being a home-built
Macgregor. See:http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htm(This example
does not have the rig.)
>
> For my taste, the Fast Motorsailer has much better ergonomics that any
Macgregor, but the sailing rig would take some getting used to.
>

> Shallow water and about the size of Macgregor
> still leaves a lot of options.

The Bolger Fast Motorsailer is pretty close to being a home-built Macgregor. See:http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htm(This example does not have the rig.)

For my taste, the Fast Motorsailer has much better ergonomics that any Macgregor, but the sailing rig would take some getting used to.

I don't think you've really told us enough about your needs to make a useful recommendation. Shallow water and about the size of Macgregor still leaves a lot of options. How many bunks do you need, if any? What kind of sailing? More sail, more motor, lots of wind, little wind, long rips, short ones?

If the boat is intended as a floating weekend hope then PCB has a couple of little houseboat designs that might work, including Super Brick, which can even sail and motor after a fashion. Seehttp://www.pdracer.com/hullcnfg/sbrick.jpg.

For the use you describe, a modes powerboat might be a good bet. I have in mind something like a Bolger Tennessee fitted with a permanent canopy with role down screens and/or canvas sides to extend the living space. Seehttp://www.ace.net.au/schooner/tenn.htmfor some ideas.

I agree with the suggestion to look at Jim Michalak's larger designs as well as PCB's work.

Good luck!

Matthew

"Not in Asia" - yep. No craiglist give-aways here. Also, anything imported to Thailand has a 100-200% import duty. THere are plastic boats here, but hate them. I also just feel more at home on something I built. Add in that I can finance over the length of constuction by using each pay check to buy supplies instead of having to save, and that is how I arrived at building. These are all good suggestions on models. Thanks!

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> > Not sure which building method you would consider cheaper and quicker.
>
> By far, the quickest and cheapest way to get out sailing is to buy one
> of those cheap unloved fiberglass boats that people essentially give
> away on Craigslist, etc. I bought one for $50, cut it into chunks
> using a SawsAll to dump it, and kept the trailer.
>
> The only reasons to build a boat is that you have some special
> requirement that cannot be met by the standard boats (being wheelchair
> bound, etc.), or if you like building boats! I am in the latter
> group, I like building boats for the sake of building boats.
>

Thanks for the link. Great build photos.

http://picasaweb.google.com/PemaquidMarine/WilliamDJochemsFamilySchooner\
DesignedByPhilBolger#

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
>
> > By far, the quickest and cheapest way to get out sailing is to buy
one
> > of those cheap unloved fiberglass boats that people essentially give
> > away on Craigslist, etc.
>
> True in the US. Maybe not so true in Asia.
>
> I assume the high-quality natural lumber needed for steamed frames and
carvel planking is unavailable. You can strip-build with lower quality
lumber especially if it's epoxy-glued and sealed. Veneers may be easier
or harder to get than finished ply, and a lot depends on the relative
availability and price of glues vs metal fastenings. I wouldn't pretend
to prescribe, although I've heard of cold-molding projects in the
Philippines, and I believe there is commercial production of high-tech
boats in both Vietnam and Thailand.
>
> However, the five-year build/use cycle suggests plywood.
>
> To be true to Mr. Bolger's thinking, let me mention the Birdwatcher,
and, more particularly, the Jochems schooner. I've never thought of
Birdwater as a boat for the open ocean, but Bolger intended the Jochems
to be pretty rugged. There are pictures of one named Indian Summer here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/PemaquidMarine
>

How about a Birdwater or it's big sister Whalewatcher. Both have shallow draft and can be beached easily.

David

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "templeagogo" <jlittl@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Harry and Peter,
>
> Yes, I have experience building boats. I looked at Caprice at Harry's suggestion. That seems quite good for what I am after. I will look at these others. What else do you think is good to look at? I see this as a "5-year" boat... IE I will sell it or scrap it in 5 years.
>
> I am a fan of boats that can take to the shallows, so the AS29 is a good idea too. I'll look at the others.
>
> I replied yesterday, but the message was bounced.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@> wrote:
> >
> > > I want to get out on the water in a boat that is a little
> > > more than just a tight camper, but not fancy.
> >
> > I bet you could list more than a dozen Bolger designs that you might consider. Any boat of the size you are talking about is a big project. It's important to consider your sources for materials. In some places, waterproof plywood is hard to find; it others, it's the easiest to get hold of.
> >
> > In your place, I would consider the following flat-bottom (or "Bolger box") boats: Long Micro, Jesse Cooper, AS-29.
> >
> > Among round-bottom and multi-chine boats, I would look at the Triple Keel sloop, the leeboard catboat, and Seabird '86. Of all of them, I think I like Seabird the best.
> >
> > You should be able to find pictures of all of these on the web without too much trouble.
> >
> > If you are an experience boatbuilder and want a bigger boat, ask again. There are a lot of choices in that case.
> >
>

> By far, the quickest and cheapest way to get out sailing is to buy one
> of those cheap unloved fiberglass boats that people essentially give
> away on Craigslist, etc.

True in the US. Maybe not so true in Asia.

I assume the high-quality natural lumber needed for steamed frames and carvel planking is unavailable. You can strip-build with lower quality lumber especially if it's epoxy-glued and sealed. Veneers may be easier or harder to get than finished ply, and a lot depends on the relative availability and price of glues vs metal fastenings. I wouldn't pretend to prescribe, although I've heard of cold-molding projects in the Philippines, and I believe there is commercial production of high-tech boats in both Vietnam and Thailand.

However, the five-year build/use cycle suggests plywood.

To be true to Mr. Bolger's thinking, let me mention the Birdwatcher, and, more particularly, the Jochems schooner. I've never thought of Birdwater as a boat for the open ocean, but Bolger intended the Jochems to be pretty rugged. There are pictures of one named Indian Summer here:http://picasaweb.google.com/PemaquidMarine

> Not sure which building method you would consider cheaper and quicker.

By far, the quickest and cheapest way to get out sailing is to buy one
of those cheap unloved fiberglass boats that people essentially give
away on Craigslist, etc. I bought one for $50, cut it into chunks
using a SawsAll to dump it, and kept the trailer.

The only reasons to build a boat is that you have some special
requirement that cannot be met by the standard boats (being wheelchair
bound, etc.), or if you like building boats! I am in the latter
group, I like building boats for the sake of building boats.

Not sure which building method you would consider cheaper and quicker.
The stitch and glue multi-chine like Caprice or a hard chine-log nail
and glue flat bottom?

If the later - another Michalak design - heavily influenced by Phil
Bolger is the Viola in either 22 or 26 ft.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/viola22/index.htm

I have the Viola 26 plans and it is a very simple build, but a
relatively larger and heavier boat then the 22. Just like the Long Micro
vs: Micro that extra 4 ft added amidships sure increases the internal
volume and final size and weight!

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "templeagogo" <jlittl@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Harry and Peter,
>
> Yes, I have experience building boats. I looked at Caprice at Harry's
suggestion. That seems quite good for what I am after. I will look at
these others. What else do you think is good to look at? I see this as a
"5-year" boat... IE I will sell it or scrap it in 5 years.
>
> I am a fan of boats that can take to the shallows, so the AS29 is a
good idea too. I'll look at the others.
>
> I replied yesterday, but the message was bounced.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" pvanderwaart@ wrote:
> >
> > > I want to get out on the water in a boat that is a little
> > > more than just a tight camper, but not fancy.
> >
> > I bet you could list more than a dozen Bolger designs that you might
consider. Any boat of the size you are talking about is a big project.
It's important to consider your sources for materials. In some places,
waterproof plywood is hard to find; it others, it's the easiest to get
hold of.
> >
> > In your place, I would consider the following flat-bottom (or
"Bolger box") boats: Long Micro, Jesse Cooper, AS-29.
> >
> > Among round-bottom and multi-chine boats, I would look at the Triple
Keel sloop, the leeboard catboat, and Seabird '86. Of all of them, I
think I like Seabird the best.
> >
> > You should be able to find pictures of all of these on the web
without too much trouble.
> >
> > If you are an experience boatbuilder and want a bigger boat, ask
again. There are a lot of choices in that case.
> >
>

Thanks, Harry and Peter,

Yes, I have experience building boats. I looked at Caprice at Harry's suggestion. That seems quite good for what I am after. I will look at these others. What else do you think is good to look at? I see this as a "5-year" boat... IE I will sell it or scrap it in 5 years.

I am a fan of boats that can take to the shallows, so the AS29 is a good idea too. I'll look at the others.

I replied yesterday, but the message was bounced.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> > I want to get out on the water in a boat that is a little
> > more than just a tight camper, but not fancy.
>
> I bet you could list more than a dozen Bolger designs that you might consider. Any boat of the size you are talking about is a big project. It's important to consider your sources for materials. In some places, waterproof plywood is hard to find; it others, it's the easiest to get hold of.
>
> In your place, I would consider the following flat-bottom (or "Bolger box") boats: Long Micro, Jesse Cooper, AS-29.
>
> Among round-bottom and multi-chine boats, I would look at the Triple Keel sloop, the leeboard catboat, and Seabird '86. Of all of them, I think I like Seabird the best.
>
> You should be able to find pictures of all of these on the web without too much trouble.
>
> If you are an experience boatbuilder and want a bigger boat, ask again. There are a lot of choices in that case.
>

> I want to get out on the water in a boat that is a little
> more than just a tight camper, but not fancy.

I bet you could list more than a dozen Bolger designs that you might consider. Any boat of the size you are talking about is a big project. It's important to consider your sources for materials. In some places, waterproof plywood is hard to find; it others, it's the easiest to get hold of.

In your place, I would consider the following flat-bottom (or "Bolger box") boats: Long Micro, Jesse Cooper, AS-29.

Among round-bottom and multi-chine boats, I would look at the Triple Keel sloop, the leeboard catboat, and Seabird '86. Of all of them, I think I like Seabird the best.

You should be able to find pictures of all of these on the web without too much trouble.

If you are an experience boatbuilder and want a bigger boat, ask again. There are a lot of choices in that case.

Check out the Caprice

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm

HJ

On 12/7/2010 7:15 PM, templeagogo wrote:
> Hi, all. I want to get out on the water in a boat that is a little more than just a tight camper, but not fancy. I want to build it cheap and quickly and use it on the Gulf of Thailand - not the open sea. I am open to any building methods. Loose Moose is awesome, but way more than I need. A MacGreggor size is fine.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi, all. I want to get out on the water in a boat that is a little more than just a tight camper, but not fancy. I want to build it cheap and quickly and use it on the Gulf of Thailand - not the open sea. I am open to any building methods. Loose Moose is awesome, but way more than I need. A MacGreggor size is fine.

Thanks!