Xmas-Tree Rig again (was, some time ago, Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa')
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
> Of course I'd like a Proa-60 one, yet I'm pro a 20 too!
thanks again. If it's of some assistance, the 'Minimum Proa' colour pic of the 5% enlarged and otherwise altered Joe Norwood version is now herehttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/383252329/pic/list
The above Joseph Norwood photo as b&w is also in the "Proa Background" article (MAIB V21NO5) along with the 'proa concept study' drawing lines (ie., 'minimum proa', 'cartoon'... / BWAOM, SBJ), and also the historic lines of Anson and Munroe.
The Proa 20 (sic)(V21NO6) has boat photos (one afloat, one on trailer, of the Noumean boat?); a photo of a sail lying on the ground (Norwood's?); a three views lines drawing; and an explanatory captioned cartoon of the recommended shunting procedure that's more developed than that seen in BWAOM or SBJ.
The wonderful Proa-60 (sic) respective MAIB images are astounding lines illustrations in V24N01, V24N02, and V24N06.
Of course I'd like a Proa-60 one, yet I'm pro a 20 too!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
> I am missing images of Proa 20 and Proa 60, though I will go digging through stacks of paper to see if I can find those MAIB's.
I'm sure I entered one or two myself some years ago. I went to that cupboard and let me tell ya it's pretty bare, and it's - Arrrggghhhh! - it's confusion all over again. There's so much confusion and confounding of things to do with the Bolger proa effort out there on the intertubes. I'll have a go at straightening it out a bit. I don't have all the reference material I'd like to have, and it's somewhat patchy, for example, page number determinations but not the publication issue. So if you'll bear with me, lengthy post, and please correct any errors...
I've clipped that Catalyst photo of Joe Norwood minimum proa sailing (http://www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N03_Jan_2001.pdfit's also a BoD article illustration) and will later stick it in the Photos section, and I'll add some entries to the designs database later. But first to somehow get it better sorted, at least in my mind, a bit of background...
And a bit of note taking.
Bolger Proa 20 Design #664, 19'6" x 10'0" x 147sf (MAIB V21N06 pp27-31): [The Concept Study was Proa 19'6" x 10'5" x 95sf BWAOM Chapter 24 (aka Minimum Proa - AYRS Xmas-tree sail - two independent kick-up rudders mounted toward midships and cantilevered to windward of the vaka), 95sf rig tested prior to MiniP on Canard Design #440 (was prior SBJ#70 Cartoon "South Seas Proa", seehttp://hallman.org/bolger/isometricsand especiallyhttp://hallman.org/sbj/70/{NB. SBJ media pdf<=65, gif<=68?})]
#664 Proa 20 now has the rudders [robust aluminium those, plus stout leeboard (off the lee of a proa!) 360 degree articulated amidships - 170 degrees of that a clr fine adjustment from tiller] moved to the very bows, one at each end of the vaka (main hull) with, wait for it, a single tiller. Ah-ha! Recall, from Canard Chapter 23 BWAOM page 112, for example, "If I design another bow-steerer, I will arrange the two fins to be independently steerable for balance adjustment, but interconnected for sharp turns in such a way that the ends of the boat both swing around the center of gravity. An America's Cup boat with such a layout was astonishingly competitive, considering how radical the concept was. (I had nothing to do with her design except to admire its boldness.)" But wait again, no, here the rudders free in two planes are always either one kicked up (the current bow) or both up - freed as it were by the leeboard control. Rudder steering response is also adjustable by gearing. It may sound like these controls, linkage routing, endless loops are a busy worried complex thing, but it seems to be all simplicated in a remarkable way at the almost common tiller and mast axis - the cable routing becomes cleverly very direct, so much so I think I may call the tiller what it seems to be - a joy stick! Improved mast staying, bigger sail of lower aspect, 2HP Honda, two 'bridges' for trimming crew weight aft - and a volunteer promising to build in Noumea.
Plans price for #664 isn't mentioned in that MAIB BoD article (there will be a number of plans sheets). Also, the preceeding issue had a 2 page BoD article, "Proa Background" (MAIB V21N05), covering Micronesia, rig issues, Anson's drawing, Munroe, LFH, Minimum Proa study concept, steering, Xmas-tree, Joe Norwood (Minimum Proa sailing photo... his previous proa publications), the Netherlands Minimum Proa speed experience of Vincent de Bode with a windsurfer adapted rig but limited by aft rocker (it looks to me from the MAIB illustrations that #664 has finer hulls and flatter rocker towards the bows); and so on to the design of an improved version for a committed New Caledonian volunteer builder, and the subject of the subsequent issue covered already above.
Then later (MAIB V24N01 pp.26-28 Bolger Proa-60 Pt 1 5/15/2005 - I am only sure of the page numbers for this reference) there's the concept study of a large cruising "Bolger Proa-60", 60'0" x 25'6" x 1'6" x 1600/2sf, with tabernacled lowereing two masted refined Xmas-tree rig, partially lateral plane loaded rudders mounted within articulating bows of the vaka, two centreboards in the ama, capsize mitigating self-correcting geometry, asymetric reserve bouyancy, sail panels of differentially weighted cloth, differentially cambered sail panels according to height with additionally electrically actuated differential sail panel camber adjustment, a third sail flown from the mastheads brace...
The next MAIB BoD article MAIB V24N02 Bolger Proa-60 Pt 2, and another later still, MAIB V24 N06 Proa 60 Pt 3, have more detail on handling this Proa-60 rig, dicussion of the hull structures, the ergonomics... and sundries such as dinghies and auxiliary propulsion. Bruce Hallman has given us an index athttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/61756From that we may be better able to check what's been published on the proas as concepts and designs, and maybe what has been built....
Now the business:
Connected in some way with Bolger proa design there is published and/or built:
1. Proa, Design #217, 39'6" x 19'6"; The Folding Schooner, Chapter 15, p91. (I'm not so sure this was built)
2. South Seas Proa, aka Minimum Proa, aka AYRS or Xmas-tree or Christmas tree proa, 19'6" x 10'5" x 95sf; both as Cartoon in SBJ#70 and Concept Study in BWAOM, Chapter 24, p116. (2 boats known - associated by most with Joseph Norwood's boat)http://hallman.org/sbj/70/http://www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N03_Jan_2001.pdfpage 42
3. Proa 20, Design #664, 19'6" x 10'0" x 147sf; MAIB V21N06, pp27-31. (MAIB V21 N06 Bolger Proa 20 Pg 1 A boat built in Noumea?)
4. James Wharram Designs designed and built a 30ft proa with, allegedly, a Bolger proa rig. They certainly built a proa.
5. Michael Schacht (proafile.com) built a proa with a test Bolger Proa Rig
6. John Dalziel (AS29 skipper, Yahoo proafile group owner, and member of this group) built a proa with a test Bolger Proa Rig
And further, in literature only there is:
7. Proa Background Pg 1 MAIB V21N05
8. Bolger Proa-60, Concept Study, 60'0" x 25'6" x 1'6" x 1600/2sf; Bolger on Design Pt 1 (5/15/2005) MAIB V24N01, pp.26-28.
9. Bolger Proa-60 Pt 2 MAIB V24N02
10. Bolger Proa-60 Pt 3 MAIB V24N06
Looks like 3 boats to enter in the design databse. It's a start anyway. Gotta getta sleep.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Joe Norwood's _Practical Proas_ report to the AYRS on the Minimum Proa and that rig is at page 42 herehttp://www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N03_Jan_2001.pdf(He found the steering to be good, indeed the boat appears to have given him much pleasure.)
>
> To refresh, others found the rig problematichttp://proafile.com/archive/article/rig_options_bolger
> however the fascinationhttp://proafile.com/archive/article/the_zen_of_proacontinues with further developments under way in search of the well mannered quick bidirectional cambered shunting sail
>http://proafile.com/forums/viewthread/124/
> Perhaps, as is suggested there, in the earlier trial excessive roach was a problem?
>
> ~
> ~ ^ ~
> / \
> / | \
> <___________>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@" <philbolger@> wrote:
>
> > Very interesting test-report on the 'Chistmas-Tree' rig.
> > I believe the only proa-based report we ever saw was Joe Norwood's piece on his scaled-up (10%?) Bolger-Proa-20. Phil of course tried it on his CANARD, if memory serves correctly.
To refresh, others found the rig problematichttp://proafile.com/archive/article/rig_options_bolger
however the fascinationhttp://proafile.com/archive/article/the_zen_of_proacontinues with further developments under way in search of the well mannered quick bidirectional cambered shunting sail
http://proafile.com/forums/viewthread/124/
Perhaps, as is suggested there, in the earlier trial excessive roach was a problem?
~
~ ^ ~
/ \
/ | \
<___________>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
> Very interesting test-report on the 'Chistmas-Tree' rig.
> I believe the only proa-based report we ever saw was Joe Norwood's piece on his scaled-up (10%?) Bolger-Proa-20. Phil of course tried it on his CANARD, if memory serves correctly.
>
> It's been too long since we looked at that rig, see MAIB Vol24#1,2, and 4 (starting May 15, 2006):
> - I'd have to take time to think through why you could not control your rate of acceleration at the tail-end of the shunting-process
> - higher-wind correct reefing-options should help more, as Part 3 of that series on the 60 shows very 'civilized' proportions of areas emerging ahead and behind the axes.
> - while there seems some dogma that Proas should always be smaller, the 60-footer's two-masted rig might offer further balance and trim-options, assuming speed-control and thus shunting-speed control are doable.
>
> Very good reference. More work to do...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Hallman
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 1:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'
> On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Tom Sorensen <tdsoren@...> wrote:
> > here's an excellent issue by someone that actually tried the rig. there were some issues that Bolger actually alluded too in his own review. The primary ones being the easily stalled fine leading edge, and the second being the sheeting issues.
> > I've wondered if making it a permanently sheeted, rotating rig might be a good solution....
http://www.proafile.com/view/magazine/article/rig_options_bolger/
> >
> > Tom
> Thanks, that article is eye opening.
>
> One snippet quote: "There is simply not enough time during this
> power-on process to accomplish all the tasks needed to reverse the
> boat, so one is left with finishing up the shunting process while the
> boat is screaming along at a mad rate."
>
> Certainly, this boat would get your adrenaline pumping!
"Bolger Advanced Sharpie like Proa, now with Videos."http://proafile.com/forums/viewthread/93/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
> Very interesting test-report on the 'Chistmas-Tree' rig.
> I believe the only proa-based report we ever saw was Joe Norwood's piece on his scaled-up (10%?) Bolger-Proa-20. Phil of course tried it on his CANARD, if memory serves correctly.
> It's been too long since we looked at that rig, see MAIB Vol24#1,2, and 4 (starting May 15, 2006):
> - I'd have to take time to think through why you could not control your rate of acceleration at the tail-end of the shunting-process
> - higher-wind correct reefing-options should help more, as Part 3 of that series on the 60 shows very 'civilized' proportions of areas emerging ahead and behind the axes.
> - while there seems some dogma that Proas should always be smaller, the 60-footer's two-masted rig might offer further balance and trim-options, assuming speed-control and thus shunting-speed control are doable.
> Very good reference. More work to do...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Hallman
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 1:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'
> On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Tom Sorensen <tdsoren@...> wrote:
> > here's an excellent issue by someone that actually tried the rig. there were some issues that Bolger actually alluded too in his own review. The primary ones being the easily stalled fine leading edge, and the second being the sheeting issues.
> > I've wondered if making it a permanently sheeted, rotating rig might be a good solution....
http://www.proafile.com/view/magazine/article/rig_options_bolger/
> > Tom
> Thanks, that article is eye opening.
>
> One snippet quote: "There is simply not enough time during this
> power-on process to accomplish all the tasks needed to reverse the
> boat, so one is left with finishing up the shunting process while the
> boat is screaming along at a mad rate."
> Certainly, this boat would get your adrenaline pumping!
My Skimmer was mocked lightly as "a boat with corners" by an eminent boat builder who shall remain nameless, though they hired me on anyway (of course I dusted his 40 footer downwind one day. .. )
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "KK7B" <kk7b@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Susanne and Group,
>
> Phil Bolger's influence extends well beyond boats. I dabble in boat and rig design evenings and weekends, but I am an electronic designer by profession. All of his books are close at hand, and I regularly read through a few pages of "Boats with and Open Mind" when I need to get unstuck on a radio design problem. Phil's basic philosophy of the quick experiment to test an interesting idea backed up by some theory and analysis is how I work in the lab. Reading his work is a constant reminder to view beautiful old ways of doing things with affection....but also with real interest and a critical and creative eye.
>
> Regarding Wooden Boats, Junks and good old stuff in general--anything more than a few generations old may be surrounded by reverent and appreciative folks who aren't thinking much about radically different approaches to the problem. Those of us with the design gene are often unwelcome in such company. Strangely enough, some of the old unsolved problems and quirks are also viewed with reverence...
>
> I spent some time aboard my friend Bob Larkin's Birdwatcher at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival this past year, and overheard comments from all camps. Several of the most outspoken described it as the best boat there.
>
> Thank you for your continued presence on this web site. It is much appreciated.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rick
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@" <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > AYRS is an odd phenomenon that way. We attended a meeting of the New England at Dick Newick's and they were discussing new projects and notions that Phil had resolved a while back. I think one such issue was the small centerboard way forward/large rudder aft geometry such as in CARTOPPER a long time ago, and St.VALERIE more recently. They asked Phil no questions since they apparently did not know the work (Payson had been selling them fpor years by then, with many built and sailing). There is a lot of good will and energy there but these blindspots are troubling. We speculated that the UK-roots might result in less than favorable interest in US progress on unorthodox geometries, with 'Bolger' being particularly 'hard to swallow'. How to explain, since Phil wrote in fine English ?! We left the meeting disappointed and annoyed with having spent a better part of a day around that meeting to hear folks be all excited about 'settled' questions, with Phil obviously having no role in their universe... All loss all around.
> >
> > Similar vibes with the Junk Rig Association, which can feature good experimentation on selected details, but will not entertain much deviation from the 'pure' junk-rig credo. The assumption seems to be that it is considered a 'rigor' and thus 'untouchable'. Well, Phil and later us together 'do touch' alright...
> >
> > The curved-batten rig has been built and sailed on a slightly scaled-up derivative of that PROA design.
> > Phil proposed it also on a 48' whaler/double-ended free-form hull cruiser/liveaboard. More 3-D work on that sail-type would seem useful.
> >
> > I think that total conceptual output by Phil may indeed be unique in its diversity and getting experimentation done, usually quick&instructive. It may indeed be 'too much' for many, certainly the glossy yacht magazines far away from WOODENBOAT.
> >
> > Another example: THE LANDING SCHOOL had no use for Phil's presence either when we went there once or twice or approached them during the WOODENBOAT SHOW for instance. It's chief quipped into Phil's face that 'all it took to do a Bolger boat was to buy Payson's books'... Not a bad start, but since he had nothing further to say, this cute one-liner reflected his sad state of ignorance. Some of Phil's books are in their library. I look forward when the combined canon and the catalogue will have to sit there in multiple copies...and becomes part of the curriculum of must-reads. But not in Phil's life-time.
> >
> > Phil's work and personal presence may have given many the fright of (for them) overwhelming design-intellectual range. And quite a few did not know how to address him and his work appropriately.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: c.ruzer
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:35 AM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nasty sail control issues of this AYRS rig leading to condemnation of it by those proa guys has already been discussed here. People have tried the sail, been clobbered - there's suggested fixes - but as far as I'm aware none tested as yet. However, as I thought they might've thrown the baby out with the bath water I raised the important, really innovative, Bolger aspect in this design of lee-helm-bow-steering (LHBS), and all the work PCB did in that area over decades, and you know what, they hadn't seen that one for looking! LHBS comes way out of left field for them, and even though the respect for PB&F's authority is there, they haven't read the assorted works, and don't really get what PCB was on about with respect to potential LHBS benefits and multis, especially proas. The proa guys will mostly just ask that as they see CLR moving so far forward at speed where comes the lee helm?
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
> > >
> > >http://www.hallman.org/bolger/MinimumProa/
> > >
> > > This looks like a 'head turner' cheap, fun and fast boat. It
> > > disassembles into pieces so (depending on the choice of scantlings) it
> > > could just barely be cartopped. Being a proa, it has two bows, and
> > > "tacks" by slowing to a stop and then reversing directions. The sail
> > > shape is determined by pre-curved laminated battens, and hence it
> > > probably could be startlingly fast. (Except for the cumbersome tacking
> > > procedure.)
> > >
> > > I create this isometric so that I could actually understand the PCB
> > > devised bi-directional steering linkage. The "aft" steering fin is
> > > locked straight, and the steering is done with the forward steering
> > > fin (swapped fins depending on which end is going forward.)
> > >
> >
>
Phil was not shy questioning his own judgment in-house on some issue, something I did give rise to as well. Upon extended discussions he would revise some long-held perspectives.
We've always thought that there ought to be BIRDWATCHERS all over the place in light of their virtues. On the other hand, most magazines defend their 'reverence' for deeper-draft geometries and synthetic-chemical-soaked dismissal of plywood as any 'plausible' structural material. "And all that glass is just not sea-worthy..." must be balanced with the liabilities of 'their' preferred types. But I think we'll get there yet...
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----From:KK7BSent:Sunday, January 09, 2011 11:32 PMSubject:[bolger] Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'Hi Susanne and Group,
Phil Bolger's influence extends well beyond boats. I dabble in boat and rig design evenings and weekends, but I am an electronic designer by profession. All of his books are close at hand, and I regularly read through a few pages of "Boats with and Open Mind" when I need to get unstuck on a radio design problem. Phil's basic philosophy of the quick experiment to test an interesting idea backed up by some theory and analysis is how I work in the lab. Reading his work is a constant reminder to view beautiful old ways of doing things with affection....but also with real interest and a critical and creative eye.
Regarding Wooden Boats, Junks and good old stuff in general--anything more than a few generations old may be surrounded by reverent and appreciative folks who aren't thinking much about radically different approaches to the problem. Those of us with the design gene are often unwelcome in such company. Strangely enough, some of the old unsolved problems and quirks are also viewed with reverence...
I spent some time aboard my friend Bob Larkin's Birdwatcher at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival this past year, and overheard comments from all camps. Several of the most outspoken described it as the best boat there.
Thank you for your continued presence on this web site. It is much appreciated.
Best Regards,
Rick
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> AYRS is an odd phenomenon that way. We attended a meeting of the New England at Dick Newick's and they were discussing new projects and notions that Phil had resolved a while back. I think one such issue was the small centerboard way forward/large rudder aft geometry such as in CARTOPPER a long time ago, and St.VALERIE more recently. They asked Phil no questions since they apparently did not know the work (Payson had been selling them fpor years by then, with many built and sailing). There is a lot of good will and energy there but these blindspots are troubling. We speculated that the UK-roots might result in less than favorable interest in US progress on unorthodox geometries, with 'Bolger' being particularly 'hard to swallow'. How to explain, since Phil wrote in fine English ?! We left the meeting disappointed and annoyed with having spent a better part of a day around that meeting to hear folks be all excited about 'settled' questions, with Phil obviously having no role in their universe... All loss all around.
>
> Similar vibes with the Junk Rig Association, which can feature good experimentation on selected details, but will not entertain much deviation from the 'pure' junk-rig credo. The assumption seems to be that it is considered a 'rigor' and thus 'untouchable'. Well, Phil and later us together 'do touch' alright...
>
> The curved-batten rig has been built and sailed on a slightly scaled-up derivative of that PROA design.
> Phil proposed it also on a 48' whaler/double-ended free-form hull cruiser/liveaboard. More 3-D work on that sail-type would seem useful.
>
> I think that total conceptual output by Phil may indeed be unique in its diversity and getting experimentation done, usually quick&instructive. It may indeed be 'too much' for many, certainly the glossy yacht magazines far away from WOODENBOAT.
>
> Another example: THE LANDING SCHOOL had no use for Phil's presence either when we went there once or twice or approached them during the WOODENBOAT SHOW for instance. It's chief quipped into Phil's face that 'all it took to do a Bolger boat was to buy Payson's books'... Not a bad start, but since he had nothing further to say, this cute one-liner reflected his sad state of ignorance. Some of Phil's books are in their library. I look forward when the combined canon and the catalogue will have to sit there in multiple copies...and becomes part of the curriculum of must-reads. But not in Phil's life-time.
>
> Phil's work and personal presence may have given many the fright of (for them) overwhelming design-intellectual range. And quite a few did not know how to address him and his work appropriately.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: c.ruzer
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:35 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'
>
>
>
>
>
> Nasty sail control issues of this AYRS rig leading to condemnation of it by those proa guys has already been discussed here. People have tried the sail, been clobbered - there's suggested fixes - but as far as I'm aware none tested as yet. However, as I thought they might've thrown the baby out with the bath water I raised the important, really innovative, Bolger aspect in this design of lee-helm-bow-steering (LHBS), and all the work PCB did in that area over decades, and you know what, they hadn't seen that one for looking! LHBS comes way out of left field for them, and even though the respect for PB&F's authority is there, they haven't read the assorted works, and don't really get what PCB was on about with respect to potential LHBS benefits and multis, especially proas. The proa guys will mostly just ask that as they see CLR moving so far forward at speed where comes the lee helm?
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
> >
> >http://www.hallman.org/bolger/MinimumProa/
> >
> > This looks like a 'head turner' cheap, fun and fast boat. It
> > disassembles into pieces so (depending on the choice of scantlings) it
> > could just barely be cartopped. Being a proa, it has two bows, and
> > "tacks" by slowing to a stop and then reversing directions. The sail
> > shape is determined by pre-curved laminated battens, and hence it
> > probably could be startlingly fast. (Except for the cumbersome tacking
> > procedure.)
> >
> > I create this isometric so that I could actually understand the PCB
> > devised bi-directional steering linkage. The "aft" steering fin is
> > locked straight, and the steering is done with the forward steering
> > fin (swapped fins depending on which end is going forward.)
> >
>
Many proaphiles seem to be settling for the practical advantages of COA shifting offered by twin masted rigs... amongst other things.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> Very interesting test-report on the 'Chistmas-Tree' rig.
> I believe the only proa-based report we ever saw was Joe Norwood's piece on his scaled-up (10%?) Bolger-Proa-20. Phil of course tried it on his CANARD, if memory serves correctly.
>
> It's been too long since we looked at that rig, see MAIB Vol24#1,2, and 4 (starting May 15, 2006):
> - I'd have to take time to think through why you could not control your rate of acceleration at the tail-end of the shunting-process
> - higher-wind correct reefing-options should help more, as Part 3 of that series on the 60 shows very 'civilized' proportions of areas emerging ahead and behind the axes.
> - while there seems some dogma that Proas should always be smaller, the 60-footer's two-masted rig might offer further balance and trim-options, assuming speed-control and thus shunting-speed control are doable.
>
> Very good reference. More work to do...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
Phil Bolger's influence extends well beyond boats. I dabble in boat and rig design evenings and weekends, but I am an electronic designer by profession. All of his books are close at hand, and I regularly read through a few pages of "Boats with and Open Mind" when I need to get unstuck on a radio design problem. Phil's basic philosophy of the quick experiment to test an interesting idea backed up by some theory and analysis is how I work in the lab. Reading his work is a constant reminder to view beautiful old ways of doing things with affection....but also with real interest and a critical and creative eye.
Regarding Wooden Boats, Junks and good old stuff in general--anything more than a few generations old may be surrounded by reverent and appreciative folks who aren't thinking much about radically different approaches to the problem. Those of us with the design gene are often unwelcome in such company. Strangely enough, some of the old unsolved problems and quirks are also viewed with reverence...
I spent some time aboard my friend Bob Larkin's Birdwatcher at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival this past year, and overheard comments from all camps. Several of the most outspoken described it as the best boat there.
Thank you for your continued presence on this web site. It is much appreciated.
Best Regards,
Rick
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> AYRS is an odd phenomenon that way. We attended a meeting of the New England at Dick Newick's and they were discussing new projects and notions that Phil had resolved a while back. I think one such issue was the small centerboard way forward/large rudder aft geometry such as in CARTOPPER a long time ago, and St.VALERIE more recently. They asked Phil no questions since they apparently did not know the work (Payson had been selling them fpor years by then, with many built and sailing). There is a lot of good will and energy there but these blindspots are troubling. We speculated that the UK-roots might result in less than favorable interest in US progress on unorthodox geometries, with 'Bolger' being particularly 'hard to swallow'. How to explain, since Phil wrote in fine English ?! We left the meeting disappointed and annoyed with having spent a better part of a day around that meeting to hear folks be all excited about 'settled' questions, with Phil obviously having no role in their universe... All loss all around.
>
> Similar vibes with the Junk Rig Association, which can feature good experimentation on selected details, but will not entertain much deviation from the 'pure' junk-rig credo. The assumption seems to be that it is considered a 'rigor' and thus 'untouchable'. Well, Phil and later us together 'do touch' alright...
>
> The curved-batten rig has been built and sailed on a slightly scaled-up derivative of that PROA design.
> Phil proposed it also on a 48' whaler/double-ended free-form hull cruiser/liveaboard. More 3-D work on that sail-type would seem useful.
>
> I think that total conceptual output by Phil may indeed be unique in its diversity and getting experimentation done, usually quick&instructive. It may indeed be 'too much' for many, certainly the glossy yacht magazines far away from WOODENBOAT.
>
> Another example: THE LANDING SCHOOL had no use for Phil's presence either when we went there once or twice or approached them during the WOODENBOAT SHOW for instance. It's chief quipped into Phil's face that 'all it took to do a Bolger boat was to buy Payson's books'... Not a bad start, but since he had nothing further to say, this cute one-liner reflected his sad state of ignorance. Some of Phil's books are in their library. I look forward when the combined canon and the catalogue will have to sit there in multiple copies...and becomes part of the curriculum of must-reads. But not in Phil's life-time.
>
> Phil's work and personal presence may have given many the fright of (for them) overwhelming design-intellectual range. And quite a few did not know how to address him and his work appropriately.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: c.ruzer
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:35 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'
>
>
>
>
>
> Nasty sail control issues of this AYRS rig leading to condemnation of it by those proa guys has already been discussed here. People have tried the sail, been clobbered - there's suggested fixes - but as far as I'm aware none tested as yet. However, as I thought they might've thrown the baby out with the bath water I raised the important, really innovative, Bolger aspect in this design of lee-helm-bow-steering (LHBS), and all the work PCB did in that area over decades, and you know what, they hadn't seen that one for looking! LHBS comes way out of left field for them, and even though the respect for PB&F's authority is there, they haven't read the assorted works, and don't really get what PCB was on about with respect to potential LHBS benefits and multis, especially proas. The proa guys will mostly just ask that as they see CLR moving so far forward at speed where comes the lee helm?
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
> >
> >http://www.hallman.org/bolger/MinimumProa/
> >
> > This looks like a 'head turner' cheap, fun and fast boat. It
> > disassembles into pieces so (depending on the choice of scantlings) it
> > could just barely be cartopped. Being a proa, it has two bows, and
> > "tacks" by slowing to a stop and then reversing directions. The sail
> > shape is determined by pre-curved laminated battens, and hence it
> > probably could be startlingly fast. (Except for the cumbersome tacking
> > procedure.)
> >
> > I create this isometric so that I could actually understand the PCB
> > devised bi-directional steering linkage. The "aft" steering fin is
> > locked straight, and the steering is done with the forward steering
> > fin (swapped fins depending on which end is going forward.)
> >
>
It's been too long since we looked at that rig, see MAIB Vol24#1,2, and 4 (starting May 15, 2006):
- I'd have to take time to think through why you could not control your rate of acceleration at the tail-end of the shunting-process
- while there seems some dogma that Proas should always be smaller, the 60-footer's two-masted rig might offer further balance and trim-options, assuming speed-control and thus shunting-speed control are doable.
----- Original Message -----From:Bruce HallmanSent:Sunday, January 09, 2011 1:00 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Tom Sorensen <tdsoren@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> here's an excellent issue by someone that actually tried the rig. there were some issues that Bolger actually alluded too in his own review. The primary ones being the easily stalled fine leading edge, and the second being the sheeting issues.
>
> I've wondered if making it a permanently sheeted, rotating rig might be a good solution....
>
>http://www.proafile.com/view/magazine/article/rig_options_bolger/
>
> Tom
>
Thanks, that article is eye opening.
One snippet quote: "There is simply not enough time during this
power-on process to accomplish all the tasks needed to reverse the
boat, so one is left with finishing up the shunting process while the
boat is screaming along at a mad rate."
Certainly, this boat would get your adrenaline pumping!
>Thanks, that article is eye opening.
>
>
> here's an excellent issue by someone that actually tried the rig. there were some issues that Bolger actually alluded too in his own review. The primary ones being the easily stalled fine leading edge, and the second being the sheeting issues.
>
> I've wondered if making it a permanently sheeted, rotating rig might be a good solution....
>
>http://www.proafile.com/view/magazine/article/rig_options_bolger/
>
> Tom
>
One snippet quote: "There is simply not enough time during this
power-on process to accomplish all the tasks needed to reverse the
boat, so one is left with finishing up the shunting process while the
boat is screaming along at a mad rate."
Certainly, this boat would get your adrenaline pumping!
here's an excellent issue by someone that actually tried the rig. there were some issues that Bolger actually alluded too in his own review. The primary ones being the easily stalled fine leading edge, and the second being the sheeting issues. I've wondered if making it a permanently sheeted, rotating rig might be a good solution.... Tom --- OnSat, 1/8/11, Bruce Hallman<hallman@...>wrote:
|
> More 3-D work on that sail-type would seem useful.Speaking for myself, the mental process of physically working out the
detailing of the 3-D of this sail and the steering fin geometry did
plenty to satisfy my curiosities.
The next step, of building full scale would not be that large of an
undertaking. This is the "minimum Proa" after all.
The two boxes could hardly be easier, and they could be 1/4 plywood
simply sprung around two bulkheads, and taped seamed. The mid-deck is
nothing more than plywood nailed on framing lumber. The mast could be
cut from a piece of Home Depot lumber too. It all could be fastened
together with simple galvanized bolts. The sail battens could be
laminated up to the curvature from 1/4 ripped strips of framing lumber
and Elmer's glue, and attached to polytarp sailcloth using a staple
gun. The most complex part might be the hinges for the steering fins,
but in my mind, they amount to nothing more than 1/4" steel plate with
a couple tabs welded on. Bought for $250 at the local metal fab shop.
I am not sure what this "Nasty sail control issues" would be. It
looks like that sail could easily be luffed, or dropped on a moments
notice. The entire platform of the boat seems stable, and the intense
sail handling would be done while standing with your feet in a secure
stable place. (Much safer, I imagine, than some of the sail handling
routinely done with jibs or genoas on tiny forward decks of most
sloops.)
If I didn't have a day job plus a couple dozen unfinished projects in
my life, I bet a 'Minimum Proa' could be built in 4 weekends spare
time.
A sad fact is that many of the ‘gurus’ in boat design and boat building work so hard in their own shops that they frequently are unaware of what goes on in other shops. Moreover, they have a proprietorial pride in their own work and are often not receptive to better or different ideas. This is particularly true since anyone can publish anything on the internet even if it is like the man who invented a machine to pull screws out of wood because no one ever told him to turn them…
We all had to start some place and I have done some strange things in my boat building career. I try to read with an open mind and I sometimes learn a better way.
JohnT
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf OfSusanne@...
Sent:Saturday, January 08, 2011
9:01 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re:
Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'
AYRS is an odd phenomenon that way. We attended a
meeting of the New England at Dick Newick's
and they were discussing new projects and notions that Phil had resolved a
while back. I think one such issue was the small centerboard way
forward/large rudder aft geometry such as in CARTOPPER a long time ago,
and St.VALERIE more recently. They asked Phil no questions
since they apparently did not know the work (Payson had been selling them fpor
years by then, with many built and sailing). There is a lot of good will
and energy there but these blindspots are troubling. We speculated that
the UK-roots might result in less than favorable interest in US progress on
unorthodox geometries, with 'Bolger' being particularly 'hard to
swallow'. How to explain, since Phil wrote in fine English ?! We
left the meeting disappointed and annoyed with having spent a better part of a
day around that meeting to hear folks be all excited about 'settled' questions,
with Phil obviously having no role in their universe... All loss all
around.
Similar vibes with the Junk Rig Association, which can feature good
experimentation on selected details, but will not entertain much deviation from
the 'pure' junk-rig credo. The assumption seems to be that it is
considered a 'rigor' and thus 'untouchable'. Well, Phil and later us
together 'do touch' alright...
The curved-batten rig has been built and sailed on a slightly scaled-up
derivative of that PROA design.
Phil proposed it also on a 48' whaler/double-ended free-form hull
cruiser/liveaboard. More 3-D work on that sail-type would seem useful.
I think that total conceptual output by Phil may indeed be unique in its
diversity and getting experimentation done, usually quick&instructive.
It may indeed be 'too much' for many, certainly the glossy yacht magazines
far away from WOODENBOAT.
Another example: THE LANDING SCHOOL had no use for Phil's presence either
when we went there once or twice or approached them during the WOODENBOAT SHOW
for instance. It's chief quipped into Phil's face that 'all it
took to do a Bolger boat was to buy Payson's books'... Not a bad
start, but since he had nothing further to say, this cute one-liner reflected
his sad state of ignorance. Some of Phil's books are in their
library. I look forward when the combined canon and the catalogue will
have to sit there in multiple copies...and becomes part of the curriculum of
must-reads. But not in Phil's life-time.
Phil's work and personal presence may have given many the fright of (for
them) overwhelming design-intellectual range. And quite a few did not
know how to address him and his work appropriately.
----- Original Message -----
From:c.ruzer
Sent:Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:35 AM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'
Nasty sail control issues of this AYRS rig leading to condemnation of it by those proa guys has already been discussed here. People have tried the sail, been clobbered - there's suggested fixes - but as far as I'm aware none tested as yet. However, as I thought they might've thrown the baby out with the bath water I raised the important, really innovative, Bolger aspect in this design of lee-helm-bow-steering (LHBS), and all the work PCB did in that area over decades, and you know what, they hadn't seen that one for looking! LHBS comes way out of left field for them, and even though the respect for PB&F's authority is there, they haven't read the assorted works, and don't really get what PCB was on about with respect to potential LHBS benefits and multis, especially proas. The proa guys will mostly just ask that as they see CLR moving so far forward at speed where comes the lee helm?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/MinimumProa/
>
> This looks like a 'head turner' cheap, fun and fast boat. It
> disassembles into pieces so (depending on the choice of scantlings) it
> could just barely be cartopped. Being a proa, it has two bows, and
> "tacks" by slowing to a stop and then reversing directions. The sail
> shape is determined by pre-curved laminated battens, and hence it
> probably could be startlingly fast. (Except for the cumbersome tacking
> procedure.)
>
> I create this isometric so that I could actually understand the PCB
> devised bi-directional steering linkage. The "aft" steering fin is
> locked straight, and the steering is done with the forward steering
> fin (swapped fins depending on which end is going forward.)
>
Similar vibes with the Junk Rig Association, which can feature good experimentation on selected details, but will not entertain much deviation from the 'pure' junk-rig credo. The assumption seems to be that it is considered a 'rigor' and thus 'untouchable'. Well, Phil and later us together 'do touch' alright...
The curved-batten rig has been built and sailed on a slightly scaled-up derivative of that PROA design.
Phil proposed it also on a 48' whaler/double-ended free-form hull cruiser/liveaboard. More 3-D work on that sail-type would seem useful.
I think that total conceptual output by Phil may indeed be unique in its diversity and getting experimentation done, usually quick&instructive. It may indeed be 'too much' for many, certainly the glossy yacht magazines far away from WOODENBOAT.
Another example: THE LANDING SCHOOL had no use for Phil's presence either when we went there once or twice or approached them during the WOODENBOAT SHOW for instance. It's chief quipped into Phil's face that 'all it took to do a Bolger boat was to buy Payson's books'... Not a bad start, but since he had nothing further to say, this cute one-liner reflected his sad state of ignorance. Some of Phil's books are in their library. I look forward when the combined canon and the catalogue will have to sit there in multiple copies...and becomes part of the curriculum of must-reads. But not in Phil's life-time.
Phil's work and personal presence may have given many the fright of (for them) overwhelming design-intellectual range. And quite a few did not know how to address him and his work appropriately.
----- Original Message -----From:c.ruzerSent:Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:35 AMSubject:[bolger] Re: Isometric, 19ft6in 'Minimum Proa'
Nasty sail control issues of this AYRS rig leading to condemnation of it by those proa guys has already been discussed here. People have tried the sail, been clobbered - there's suggested fixes - but as far as I'm aware none tested as yet. However, as I thought they might've thrown the baby out with the bath water I raised the important, really innovative, Bolger aspect in this design of lee-helm-bow-steering (LHBS), and all the work PCB did in that area over decades, and you know what, they hadn't seen that one for looking! LHBS comes way out of left field for them, and even though the respect for PB&F's authority is there, they haven't read the assorted works, and don't really get what PCB was on about with respect to potential LHBS benefits and multis, especially proas. The proa guys will mostly just ask that as they see CLR moving so far forward at speed where comes the lee helm?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/MinimumProa/
>
> This looks like a 'head turner' cheap, fun and fast boat. It
> disassembles into pieces so (depending on the choice of scantlings) it
> could just barely be cartopped. Being a proa, it has two bows, and
> "tacks" by slowing to a stop and then reversing directions. The sail
> shape is determined by pre-curved laminated battens, and hence it
> probably could be startlingly fast. (Except for the cumbersome tacking
> procedure.)
>
> I create this isometric so that I could actually understand the PCB
> devised bi-directional steering linkage. The "aft" steering fin is
> locked straight, and the steering is done with the forward steering
> fin (swapped fins depending on which end is going forward.)
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/MinimumProa/
>
> This looks like a 'head turner' cheap, fun and fast boat. It
> disassembles into pieces so (depending on the choice of scantlings) it
> could just barely be cartopped. Being a proa, it has two bows, and
> "tacks" by slowing to a stop and then reversing directions. The sail
> shape is determined by pre-curved laminated battens, and hence it
> probably could be startlingly fast. (Except for the cumbersome tacking
> procedure.)
>
> I create this isometric so that I could actually understand the PCB
> devised bi-directional steering linkage. The "aft" steering fin is
> locked straight, and the steering is done with the forward steering
> fin (swapped fins depending on which end is going forward.)
>
This looks like a 'head turner' cheap, fun and fast boat. It
disassembles into pieces so (depending on the choice of scantlings) it
could just barely be cartopped. Being a proa, it has two bows, and
"tacks" by slowing to a stop and then reversing directions. The sail
shape is determined by pre-curved laminated battens, and hence it
probably could be startlingly fast. (Except for the cumbersome tacking
procedure.)
I create this isometric so that I could actually understand the PCB
devised bi-directional steering linkage. The "aft" steering fin is
locked straight, and the steering is done with the forward steering
fin (swapped fins depending on which end is going forward.)