Re: [bolger] Re: Electric
I've thought some
about the combination of a generator, electric boat motor, charge controller,
and a small amount of battery capacity for running lights and occasional short
uses of the electric boat motor. Then running the generator if the boat
motor is run for extended periods.
Even if you are anchored, you can be in trouble if
you don't have a light at night, and that electricity has to come from
somewhere, especially if you are out on the water for a few days. Having lots of
light, at the flip of a switch, to easily see what you are doing is nice
too.
What intrigues me about the generator
option is the flexibility of its use in other areas of life besides
boating.
Every additional combustion engine you own is more
engine maintenance cycles to keep track of and do, and more engine problems if
not done correctly in a timely way. There are a lot of gasoline engine powered
tools that have electric versions, that you can use if you have electric
power. With a generator you do have electric power anyplace you haul your
tools.
Then its always nice to have a generator at home so
your frozen food doesn't melt if the power goes out when its warm, and to keep
the furnace going so your pipes don't freeze if the power goes out when its
cold.
So I've been thinking about the value of an
all-purpose generator, that would power a variety of equipment, and using that
same generator to power a small boat too. All that would be needed is to rig the
boat and generator so the generator is easy to load and unload, and secure while
boating. For a trailered boat, you could just leave the generator in the boat
and just run an extension cord from the boat to the house if the power goes
out.
I realize there are situations where a gasoline
outboard is more appropriate than an electric motor, but I've been thinking
about making do with just sails and oars, and an electric motor is a step up
from this. Any boat that can be moved with oars can be really effectively moved
by a small electric boat motor.
The slippery trail is thinking of adding batteries
for lights, then thinking about how to charge the batteries and the fact I'd
like to have a quiet portable generator anyway - then thinking how easy it would
be to add an electric motor if the batteries and generator were already in
place. I really don't want to own another special purpose gasoline engine, but
would make an exception for a versatile one like a gasoline powered electrical
generator.
I think there is a middle range where the electric
boat motor is best suited. The smallest boats don't have room for a generator
and batteries, but you can stick a small outboard on the back of them. Then
there is some larger size where internal combustion engines are the most
appropriate propulsion.
I'm fascinated by the fact that an electric boat
motor has worked well as the motor/engine powered propulsion for a 34 foot
sailboat. A large number of Bolger's designs are shorter than this, and still
big enough to have a corner to stick a generator and then use the batteries as
ballast.
Sincerely,
Roger
Boats are systems. They work, or do not work, as a whole. They are not compromises. When someone commissions a boat, or a boat designer decides to design a particular boat, if it is a good one, it does some particular things well and achieves the important design criterion. If the boat is a power boat, or has auxiliary propulsion, that is an important aspect of the design: L. Francis considered it an additional 25% of a sailboat. Phillip C. Bolger's range of boat design is remarkable. He designed a wide variety of very functional boats. Each works as a whole to achieve the desired end result. An electric trolling motor boat, and a couple of paddle wheel boats not withstanding, the choices available to Phil were the standard choices: oars, gas or diesel inboard or inboard/outboard, gas outboard. He often chose outboard because of initial cost and ease of maintenance and replacement, and then provided a good placement for that outboard and its fuel. Susanne designed a very nice boat powered by a trolling motor. As has been widely discussed in this forum, Phil's design thinking was refreshingly free. Had Phil had other than the standard choices for propulsion I think he would have created designs that made good use of the advantages of those alternate propulsion systems, and mitigated their down sides. Susanne carries on. As part of a whole design, mechanical propulsion is a huge part of the design even if it does not look it. When it goes wrong, as it did with Phil's own Resolution, and my ROGUE, one wishes mightily for other options.
Bob, thank you for your response and willingness to continue a discussion with me off line or on the electric boat forum, and I will. Electric may be one of those other wished for options. If so, I think this forum should know more about it at some point.
Many shallow hulled boats, for which Phillip C Bolger is famous, would be well served by rudder mounted propulsion units: electric or hydraulic (electrical wire being easier to deal with than two hydraulic lines). I think there are Bolger designs that could benefit from practical electric or hydraulic propulsion.
Phil's creative thinking did not stop at hull design, but included anchors and anchoring systems (as in secure place to handle ground tackle, and store it where the mess and stink don't matter), sails, interiors, and creative approaches to mechanical propulsion.
Eric
Bob, thank you for your response and willingness to continue a discussion with me off line or on the electric boat forum, and I will. Electric may be one of those other wished for options. If so, I think this forum should know more about it at some point.
Many shallow hulled boats, for which Phillip C Bolger is famous, would be well served by rudder mounted propulsion units: electric or hydraulic (electrical wire being easier to deal with than two hydraulic lines). I think there are Bolger designs that could benefit from practical electric or hydraulic propulsion.
Phil's creative thinking did not stop at hull design, but included anchors and anchoring systems (as in secure place to handle ground tackle, and store it where the mess and stink don't matter), sails, interiors, and creative approaches to mechanical propulsion.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks" <loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:
>
>
> If you are interested in more drop me a line or look at my post on the Electric boat group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/10758)as I don't really feel that my experiences with electric propulsion belong on the Bolger group as it is somewhat off subject.
>
> But I should point out that lead acid works just fine as well as the golf cart industry has done all the heavy lifting for those of us doing electric propulsion and there is no real reason to re-invent the wheel at the moment.
>
> Bob
>http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
>http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
>http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
>
If you are interested in more drop me a line or look at my post on the Electric boat group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/10758)as I don't really feel that my experiences with electric propulsion belong on the Bolger group as it is somewhat off subject.
But I should point out that lead acid works just fine as well as the golf cart industry has done all the heavy lifting for those of us doing electric propulsion and there is no real reason to re-invent the wheel at the moment.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
But I should point out that lead acid works just fine as well as the golf cart industry has done all the heavy lifting for those of us doing electric propulsion and there is no real reason to re-invent the wheel at the moment.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Not quite enough said. Please describe in more detail your set-up and costs for your electric drive Cal 34. What kind of batteries do you use? How much do you use them? How do you charge them? How long do they last before you need to replace them?
As for thinking out of the box, I have seriously debated water pump propulsion, hydraulic motor on the rudder with folding prop (couldn't find an engineer to design it, but all indications were that it would be expensive), currently use an outboard tug and will continue to, but I may attach a multihull type long board to the side of the hull to drop the outboard into the water when auxiliary is wanted, raise to store the outboard out of the water (no drag) when not needed. Torqeedo would mount fairly easily and unobtrusively to rudder on mount to raise it clear of the water when not needed.
Cost of Torqeedo:$3300 for the cruise 2.0 remote plus two 12v batteries at $400 each, or $3800 for the Torqeedo recommended cruise 4.0 remote plus four 12v batteries at $400 each. Run time at hull speed would be approx 2 hours, approximately 12 nautical miles for the 4.0. ROGUE is not a marina boat so a generator is needed: $1000 - $1200 for quiet Yamaha or Honda. It is also needed for extended run time. Solar chargers are about the same cost but do not allow extended run time. $150 or more for charger ($850 to $1000 for 48v). So going with what Torqeedo recommended for ROGUE: $3800 + 1600 + $1000 + $1000 for charger/inverter (need inverter anyway so $500 for choice of electric outboard and getting a more expensive inverter/charger). Total: $6900 Nearly half the material cost for building ROGUE.
vs
Tohatsu 9.8 hp Four-Stroke with gas tank, remote control, electric start and alternator: less than $3000.
Batteries do not last more than a few years. Outboards need repair and replacement and use gas.
Eric
As for thinking out of the box, I have seriously debated water pump propulsion, hydraulic motor on the rudder with folding prop (couldn't find an engineer to design it, but all indications were that it would be expensive), currently use an outboard tug and will continue to, but I may attach a multihull type long board to the side of the hull to drop the outboard into the water when auxiliary is wanted, raise to store the outboard out of the water (no drag) when not needed. Torqeedo would mount fairly easily and unobtrusively to rudder on mount to raise it clear of the water when not needed.
Cost of Torqeedo:$3300 for the cruise 2.0 remote plus two 12v batteries at $400 each, or $3800 for the Torqeedo recommended cruise 4.0 remote plus four 12v batteries at $400 each. Run time at hull speed would be approx 2 hours, approximately 12 nautical miles for the 4.0. ROGUE is not a marina boat so a generator is needed: $1000 - $1200 for quiet Yamaha or Honda. It is also needed for extended run time. Solar chargers are about the same cost but do not allow extended run time. $150 or more for charger ($850 to $1000 for 48v). So going with what Torqeedo recommended for ROGUE: $3800 + 1600 + $1000 + $1000 for charger/inverter (need inverter anyway so $500 for choice of electric outboard and getting a more expensive inverter/charger). Total: $6900 Nearly half the material cost for building ROGUE.
vs
Tohatsu 9.8 hp Four-Stroke with gas tank, remote control, electric start and alternator: less than $3000.
Batteries do not last more than a few years. Outboards need repair and replacement and use gas.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks" <loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:
>
> Well as it happens I DON"T agree that electric is expensive or complicated over ICE's... In fact it is the exact opposite.
>
> A simple kit for a sailing auxiliary for a boat up to about 36 feet costs around a thousand dollars with a little sweat equity,while an inboard diesel would cost many times that. Installation is simple and clean and running costs of an electric propulsion system are as close to zero as anything you'll find in a boat system.
>
> Which is not to say that a simple outboard is a bad thing or not perfect for a boat that was designed for an outboard.Fact is the boat I'm looking at for the next Loose Moose will more than likely have a Yamaha 9.9 high thrust because it makes more sense on that particular boat.
>
> One thing about boat stuff is a lot of people like to make things complicated and expensive, often when they are not. Those of us here on the Bolger group should be more aware of that fact than most as we are constantly being told that some of Phil's designs are less than they are, not seaworthy or simply too odd and different to be of any value... We all know that is a bunch of BS or we would not be here... I've noticed that most folks who trashtalk electric propulsion have a vested interest in the same old same or are the same sort who can't get their heads around anything a bit different than the same old same and that very much includes designs by Phil and like minds.
>
> If you have built or sailed a Bolger design you already know how that goes...
>
> Like I said before electric is not for everyone but we have been sailing all around the Caribbean on a 34 foot boat with electric propulsion and it works while costing pennies in comparison to a diesel or outboard (fact is in the five years we've sailed with electric propulsion we have spent far more on our Tohatsu 5HP in repairs, upkeep and fuel for our 8 foot dinghy than we have for our 8HP electric system that drives our CAL 34 at hull speed.
>
> Nuff said
>
> Bob
>
>http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
>http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
>http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> >
> > Agree about electric power cost/complication at this point,
> > >
> >
>
Well as it happens I DON"T agree that electric is expensive or complicated over ICE's... In fact it is the exact opposite.
A simple kit for a sailing auxiliary for a boat up to about 36 feet costs around a thousand dollars with a little sweat equity,while an inboard diesel would cost many times that. Installation is simple and clean and running costs of an electric propulsion system are as close to zero as anything you'll find in a boat system.
Which is not to say that a simple outboard is a bad thing or not perfect for a boat that was designed for an outboard.Fact is the boat I'm looking at for the next Loose Moose will more than likely have a Yamaha 9.9 high thrust because it makes more sense on that particular boat.
One thing about boat stuff is a lot of people like to make things complicated and expensive, often when they are not. Those of us here on the Bolger group should be more aware of that fact than most as we are constantly being told that some of Phil's designs are less than they are, not seaworthy or simply too odd and different to be of any value... We all know that is a bunch of BS or we would not be here... I've noticed that most folks who trashtalk electric propulsion have a vested interest in the same old same or are the same sort who can't get their heads around anything a bit different than the same old same and that very much includes designs by Phil and like minds.
If you have built or sailed a Bolger design you already know how that goes...
Like I said before electric is not for everyone but we have been sailing all around the Caribbean on a 34 foot boat with electric propulsion and it works while costing pennies in comparison to a diesel or outboard (fact is in the five years we've sailed with electric propulsion we have spent far more on our Tohatsu 5HP in repairs, upkeep and fuel for our 8 foot dinghy than we have for our 8HP electric system that drives our CAL 34 at hull speed.
Nuff said
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
A simple kit for a sailing auxiliary for a boat up to about 36 feet costs around a thousand dollars with a little sweat equity,while an inboard diesel would cost many times that. Installation is simple and clean and running costs of an electric propulsion system are as close to zero as anything you'll find in a boat system.
Which is not to say that a simple outboard is a bad thing or not perfect for a boat that was designed for an outboard.Fact is the boat I'm looking at for the next Loose Moose will more than likely have a Yamaha 9.9 high thrust because it makes more sense on that particular boat.
One thing about boat stuff is a lot of people like to make things complicated and expensive, often when they are not. Those of us here on the Bolger group should be more aware of that fact than most as we are constantly being told that some of Phil's designs are less than they are, not seaworthy or simply too odd and different to be of any value... We all know that is a bunch of BS or we would not be here... I've noticed that most folks who trashtalk electric propulsion have a vested interest in the same old same or are the same sort who can't get their heads around anything a bit different than the same old same and that very much includes designs by Phil and like minds.
If you have built or sailed a Bolger design you already know how that goes...
Like I said before electric is not for everyone but we have been sailing all around the Caribbean on a 34 foot boat with electric propulsion and it works while costing pennies in comparison to a diesel or outboard (fact is in the five years we've sailed with electric propulsion we have spent far more on our Tohatsu 5HP in repairs, upkeep and fuel for our 8 foot dinghy than we have for our 8HP electric system that drives our CAL 34 at hull speed.
Nuff said
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
>
> Agree about electric power cost/complication at this point,
> >
>
Agree about electric power cost/complication at this point, and until fuel cells are practical. I really wanted to go with the Torqeedo, but even in my strange situation, it is not a workable solution: easy mount of electric outboard with necessary remote control, but 48 volts of batteries of at least 120AMPS, auxiliary generator: expensive, complicated, excessive weight, and just sufficient thrust for ROGUE's 8,000 lbs according to Torqueedo. a fuel cell would dispense with complication, weight, and storage issues.
Thanks for the info on Sail Pro.
Eric
Thanks for the info on Sail Pro.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone interested in electric or "hybrid" power might want to join this group.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
>
> In my view it is by far the most expensive and complicated form of auxiliary power for a sailboat. Unless one is not venturing far from the harbour.
>
> A 6-10 hp 4-stroke with alternator is to mind the most efficient and reliable way to go.
>
> Tohatsu recently came out with a 6 hp 4-stroke that they call a "Sail Pro".
>
> New Sail Pro! This powerful engine offers a 25" shaft and a high thrust sail drive propeller to give you the power you need. It also includes a 12V, 60W, 5A charging system for charging your battery or powering external electrical devices and its own charging cable. Sailing just got better with Tohatsu's new 6hp Sail Pro!
>
> I think the prop might be 9".
>
> Nels
>
Hi Nels
Yes we have been using the Honda 2000 as something of a "Poor mans hybrid" system... That said we have only had to use it couple of times when our needs exceeded our battery power (namely since we were dismasted) and had to make port twice without resource to sail power. Truth be told we more than likely could have made pot without the generator but it was nice to have the generator just in case.
Our day to day usage of our electric motor has been by solar and regen (charging the batteries with the prop turning while sailing).
Our current system is by Electric Yacht but our previous system was off the shelf golf cart bits and only cost about $1000. The reason we went over to the drop in electric yacht system was that we wanted to upgrade to a regen style controller and motor.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Yes we have been using the Honda 2000 as something of a "Poor mans hybrid" system... That said we have only had to use it couple of times when our needs exceeded our battery power (namely since we were dismasted) and had to make port twice without resource to sail power. Truth be told we more than likely could have made pot without the generator but it was nice to have the generator just in case.
Our day to day usage of our electric motor has been by solar and regen (charging the batteries with the prop turning while sailing).
Our current system is by Electric Yacht but our previous system was off the shelf golf cart bits and only cost about $1000. The reason we went over to the drop in electric yacht system was that we wanted to upgrade to a regen style controller and motor.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
> >
>
Hi Bob,
Perhaps you could be so kind as to answer a few questions here for
everyone's benefit?
Is the Honda generator a part of the propulsion system for recharging
the batteries?
http://allaboutboats.blogspot.com/2011/01/honda-2000i-generator-quit-hon\
eywell.html
If so how far can you go in calm conditions before having to fire it up?
What type of electric motor are you using?
I do have a somewhat similar genset made by Coleman (1500 watts peak
output 1o00 steady I think) but I find it noisy and would like to avoid
having to carry gas if possible. I also wish to avoid having to stay in
places with shore power as the few available marinas are often booked up
in the summer or just plain crowded.
Don't have much deck space for solar panels and if there is not enough
wind to sail then not enough for a wind generator which would be also
useless in the coves I prefer to spend the nights in.
I also believe I would find the same gas outboard more convenient for
using on a dinghy on the river I live beside, when not out sailing. But
that is not a big issue as I already have one. A small tank of gas is a
lot lighter than a big deep cycle battery or two.
I'm all for electric, just mainly interested how to keep the batteries
charged when out for a week or two or more. So far I have not found a
means that I feel I can trust as much as a good outboard.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks"
<loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:
propulsion for over five years now on our CAL 34 and it is both much
less expensive (both to buy/install and run/maintain) than an internal
combustion inboard set up and if anything more dependable.
electric propulsion.
Perhaps you could be so kind as to answer a few questions here for
everyone's benefit?
Is the Honda generator a part of the propulsion system for recharging
the batteries?
http://allaboutboats.blogspot.com/2011/01/honda-2000i-generator-quit-hon\
eywell.html
If so how far can you go in calm conditions before having to fire it up?
What type of electric motor are you using?
I do have a somewhat similar genset made by Coleman (1500 watts peak
output 1o00 steady I think) but I find it noisy and would like to avoid
having to carry gas if possible. I also wish to avoid having to stay in
places with shore power as the few available marinas are often booked up
in the summer or just plain crowded.
Don't have much deck space for solar panels and if there is not enough
wind to sail then not enough for a wind generator which would be also
useless in the coves I prefer to spend the nights in.
I also believe I would find the same gas outboard more convenient for
using on a dinghy on the river I live beside, when not out sailing. But
that is not a big issue as I already have one. A small tank of gas is a
lot lighter than a big deep cycle battery or two.
I'm all for electric, just mainly interested how to keep the batteries
charged when out for a week or two or more. So far I have not found a
means that I feel I can trust as much as a good outboard.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks"
<loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:
>makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. We have been using electric
> While electric propulsion is not for everyone it is an option that
propulsion for over five years now on our CAL 34 and it is both much
less expensive (both to buy/install and run/maintain) than an internal
combustion inboard set up and if anything more dependable.
>to discuss it with someone who has actually lived and cruise with
> Off hand I'd put cost to be in the same neighborhood as an outboard...
>
> If anyone is interested drop me a line over at Boat Bits if you'd like
electric propulsion.
>
> Bob
>
>http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
>http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
>http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
>
While electric propulsion is not for everyone it is an option that makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. We have been using electric propulsion for over five years now on our CAL 34 and it is both much less expensive (both to buy/install and run/maintain) than an internal combustion inboard set up and if anything more dependable.
Off hand I'd put cost to be in the same neighborhood as an outboard...
If anyone is interested drop me a line over at Boat Bits if you'd like to discuss it with someone who has actually lived and cruise with electric propulsion.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Off hand I'd put cost to be in the same neighborhood as an outboard...
If anyone is interested drop me a line over at Boat Bits if you'd like to discuss it with someone who has actually lived and cruise with electric propulsion.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Anyone interested in electric or "hybrid" power might want to join this group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
In my view it is by far the most expensive and complicated form of auxiliary power for a sailboat. Unless one is not venturing far from the harbour.
A 6-10 hp 4-stroke with alternator is to mind the most efficient and reliable way to go.
Tohatsu recently came out with a 6 hp 4-stroke that they call a "Sail Pro".
New Sail Pro! This powerful engine offers a 25" shaft and a high thrust sail drive propeller to give you the power you need. It also includes a 12V, 60W, 5A charging system for charging your battery or powering external electrical devices and its own charging cable. Sailing just got better with Tohatsu's new 6hp Sail Pro!
I think the prop might be 9".
Nels
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
In my view it is by far the most expensive and complicated form of auxiliary power for a sailboat. Unless one is not venturing far from the harbour.
A 6-10 hp 4-stroke with alternator is to mind the most efficient and reliable way to go.
Tohatsu recently came out with a 6 hp 4-stroke that they call a "Sail Pro".
New Sail Pro! This powerful engine offers a 25" shaft and a high thrust sail drive propeller to give you the power you need. It also includes a 12V, 60W, 5A charging system for charging your battery or powering external electrical devices and its own charging cable. Sailing just got better with Tohatsu's new 6hp Sail Pro!
I think the prop might be 9".
Nels