Re: Long micro keel question- on behalf of Pat

Thanks all.

I have found a product that fits the bill.Vinyguard Silvergrey 88 Jotun paintsI used it as a tie coat between my epoxied bottom and my anti fouling paint and also on the insides of the boat between epoxy and latex.It is a one partVINYL PRIMERwith approx 40% solids. So I can fill the compartments and drain them and keep the 7 or 8 liters of paint for another project.

Off subject a bit but have a look at what was racing in the canal recently (see attached).

Thanks again for your thoughts. Will defiantly send pics of our trip.

cheers

PAT

I believe there was an extensive discussion about this something like 3 years ago. Some institution in G.B. even reported a study confirming it. Check the archive.

V/R
Chris

On 2/9/2011 11:30 AM, John Huft wrote:
Whoopsie daisy, I was thinking ethylene glycol while reading polypropylene glycol. None the less, a substance to think about for a wood preservative.
JB

Whoopsie daisy, I was thinking ethylene glycol while reading polypropylene glycol. None the less, a substance to think about for a wood preservative.
JB

."It's the tides, man.  They can either work for you or they can work against you...

Confidentially, I've had this problem with the tides before."

--Captain Ron

From:John Huft <t1ro2003@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wed, February 9, 2011 10:14:47 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Long micro keel question- on behalf of Pat

Anti freeze is cheap and pretty toxic, that's for sure. Something also to consider as a wood preservative is copper naphthenate, brand name Cop-R-Tox.
John Boy

."It's the tides, man.  They can either work for you or they can work against you...

Confidentially, I've had this problem with the tides before."

--Captain Ron

From:otter55806 <otter55806@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wed, February 9, 2011 9:56:02 AM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Long micro keel question- on behalf of Pat

Hi,
I seem to recall that your problem was unsealed plywood in the compartments and trouble with marine critters like worms. If so, I also seem to recall a discussion years ago about Naval Architect Dave Gerr's (I think) use of polypropylene glycol to kill off and protect wood from rot. This stuff will kill anything, us too, that ingest it. It is thin so would absorb well into the wood. Since it is would be on the inside of the boat it won't pollute the waters. Fill the compartments and let it soak in for a week or so, then pump out with something like a cheap drill pump. Would not need to drill holes in the bottom to drain.
Never used this myself,just throwing this out for discussion if anyone else remembers this, or has Dave's book where I think he talks about it.
Bob

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat <patjah@...> wrote:
>
> >>Have you thought about cutting a hole in the keel , or even removing a
> panel, so you could actually see the problem and correct it ? Sounds like
> you need to seal the joints along with the ply.
>
> Bill suggested this route also. It makes allot of sense but also allot of
> work as there are 7 compartments. I was trying to think of something less
> destructive and labour intensive.
>
> >>>I wonder about adding some sort of heavy filler to the coal tar epoxy
> and completely sealing up the free-flooding sections?
> Maybe some lead or steel shot or fine gravel? Or even a concrete slurry?
> If heavier than water it will probably add a bit to stability is all.
> Nels
>
> This is more the direction I would like to explore. Hhowever there is not
> just one compartment. If I was to fill all the compartments I am sure it
> would be in the area of 30 or so liters of epoxy.Filling one at a time and
> draining would be the only economical way to go with epoxy. to fill
> permanently the material would have to be fairly cheap and roughly the same
> specific density as water (Paraffin wax, tar) as the keel is not designed to
> carry more weight.
>

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Anti freeze is cheap and pretty toxic, that's for sure. Something also to consider as a wood preservative is copper naphthenate, brand name Cop-R-Tox.
John Boy

."It's the tides, man.  They can either work for you or they can work against you...

Confidentially, I've had this problem with the tides before."

--Captain Ron

From:otter55806 <otter55806@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wed, February 9, 2011 9:56:02 AM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Long micro keel question- on behalf of Pat

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat <patjah@...> wrote:
>
> >>Have you thought about cutting a hole in the keel , or even removing a
> panel, so you could actually see the problem and correct it ? Sounds like
> you need to seal the joints along with the ply.
>
> Bill suggested this route also. It makes allot of sense but also allot of
> work as there are 7 compartments. I was trying to think of something less
> destructive and labour intensive.
>
> >>>I wonder about adding some sort of heavy filler to the coal tar epoxy
> and completely sealing up the free-flooding sections?
> Maybe some lead or steel shot or fine gravel? Or even a concrete slurry?
> If heavier than water it will probably add a bit to stability is all.
> Nels
>
> This is more the direction I would like to explore. Hhowever there is not
> just one compartment. If I was to fill all the compartments I am sure it
> would be in the area of 30 or so liters of epoxy.Filling one at a time and
> draining would be the only economical way to go with epoxy. to fill
> permanently the material would have to be fairly cheap and roughly the same
> specific density as water (Paraffin wax, tar) as the keel is not designed to
> carry more weight.
>

Need Mail bonding?
Go to theYahoo! Mail Q&Aforgreat tips from Yahoo! Answersusers.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat <patjah@...> wrote:
>
> >>Have you thought about cutting a hole in the keel , or even removing a
> panel, so you could actually see the problem and correct it ? Sounds like
> you need to seal the joints along with the ply.
>
> Bill suggested this route also. It makes allot of sense but also allot of
> work as there are 7 compartments. I was trying to think of something less
> destructive and labour intensive.
>
> >>>I wonder about adding some sort of heavy filler to the coal tar epoxy
> and completely sealing up the free-flooding sections?
> Maybe some lead or steel shot or fine gravel? Or even a concrete slurry?
> If heavier than water it will probably add a bit to stability is all.
> Nels
>
> This is more the direction I would like to explore. Hhowever there is not
> just one compartment. If I was to fill all the compartments I am sure it
> would be in the area of 30 or so liters of epoxy.Filling one at a time and
> draining would be the only economical way to go with epoxy. to fill
> permanently the material would have to be fairly cheap and roughly the same
> specific density as water (Paraffin wax, tar) as the keel is not designed to
> carry more weight.
>

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 5:39 AM, Pat <patjah@...> wrote:

> The thing that is keeping me up at nights is that I buildt a garvey about 4 years ago out of the same ply the long micro is buildt out of and it is starting to delaminate.

> I may be overthinking this point and perhaps I should go sailing!

If your plywood is destined to delaminate, (in my opinion) smearing
epoxy on it, bitumen or whatever, isn't going to change anything.
Store the boat out of the water, and keep it covered from the rain.
In the mean time, go sailing, and send us pictures!

Maybe just fill and seal the innermost four with something heavier than
water? (The two on each end of the keel) Then just seal off the
outermost compartments.

Or simply seal them all off and add some internal ballast after the boat
is launched to bring it down to its lines. The fore and aft center of
balance is right under the step into the cabin. So a shallow box with
lead ingots under the step would work. (Or maybe a steel bar bolted to
the bottom of the bulkhead. That is what Michalak is recommending now
instead of handling lead.)

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat <patjah@...> wrote:
> >>>I wonder about adding some sort of heavy filler to the coal tar
epoxy
> and completely sealing up the free-flooding sections?
> Maybe some lead or steel shot or fine gravel? Or even a concrete
slurry?
> If heavier than water it will probably add a bit to stability is all.
> Nels
>
> This is more the direction I would like to explore. Hhowever there is
not
> just one compartment. If I was to fill all the compartments I am sure
it
> would be in the area of 30 or so liters of epoxy.Filling one at a time
and
> draining would be the only economical way to go with epoxy. to fill
> permanently the material would have to be fairly cheap and roughly
the same
> specific density as water (Paraffin wax, tar) as the keel is not
designed to
> carry more weight.
>

>>Have you thought about cutting a hole in the keel , or even removing a panel, so you could actually see the problem and correct it ? Sounds like you need to seal the joints along with the ply.

Bill suggested this route also. It makes allot of sense but also allot of work as there are 7 compartments. I was trying to think of something less destructive and labour intensive.

>>>I wonder about adding some sort of heavy filler to the coal tar epoxy

and completely sealing up the free-flooding sections?

Maybe some lead or steel shot or fine gravel? Or even a concrete slurry?
If heavier than water it will probably add a bit to stability is all.

Nels

This is more the direction I would like to explore. Hhowever there is not just one compartment. If I was to fill all the compartments I am sure it would be in the area of 30 or so liters of epoxy.Filling one at a time and draining would be the only economical way to go with epoxy. to fill permanently the material would have to be fairly cheap and roughly the same specific density as water (Paraffin wax, tar) as the keel is not designed to carry more weight.

I wonder about adding some sort of heavy filler to the coal tar epoxy
and completely sealing up the free-flooding sections?

Maybe some lead or steel shot or fine gravel? Or even a concrete slurry?
If heavier than water it will probably add a bit to stability is all.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> Pat (in Thailand) asked that I post the following question here, as he
cannot log into Yahoo groups. Please reply to the group. I'll forward
answers to him if necessary.
> *******************************
> Susanne
> I have just built a long micro, and I have a question about the hollow
keel. When I built the keel I am afraid I did not coat enough epoxy on
the inside of the hollow keel. I have tried every way that I can imagine
to coat the inside. The only way I can think is to plug the bottom
flooding holes and to pour coal tar epoxy in the top flooding holes
until the flooding compartments are full and then drain them. I think
this is a rather expensive solution as I will have to discard approx 10
litres of the left over coal tar epoxy.
>
> Can you suggest and alternative technique or material for flooding the
compartments.
>
> Regards
> PAT
> *********************************
>

I was just going to observe that there were a lot of plywood boats build in the 50s when the stuff took off, and they were never coated with anything but enamel paint. They seem to last indefinitely. The main thing is lots of fresh air. An open skiff, even made out of A/C, will last for a really really long time, as long as it doesn't sit in rot-prone places. (Constant use seems to make a skiff last longer, not sure why. Probably because micro-colonies of rot are always having their environment upset)

Mostly you have to worry about end-grain.. about 99% of the time, that's where plywood starts to rot

A dry sailed boat will last a very long time, without epoxy, as long as it's well ventilated and covered, and not stored for long periods (years)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> Marine-Borers do like to take on the comforts and shelter of a centerboard trunk, or here the insides of the keel-assembly. Floating in as larvae and 'setting up shop' seems more inviting by bare ply versus the unpalatable epoxy-layer. If you have borers in your water, as we do in Gloucester, MA, this might need considering.
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dave Gentry
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 1:12 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Long micro keel question- on behalf of Pat
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
> > If it takes twice as long to build a boat covered with epoxy, and the
> > epoxy boat lasts twice as long as a boat not covered with epoxy, why
> > not build two boats and start sailing sooner?
>
> A fine sentiment! But, marine plywood being engineered for use in marine environments, there's no reason that the epoxy covered boat would live any longer at all. Perhaps even less so, as epoxy is only moisture resistant, and retains water just as well as it keeps it out.
>
> Of course, this subject has been debated endlessly elsewhere, and likely here, too. It's obvious which side of it I adhere to (har har!), but many people believe otherwise. I just wanted to present "non-encapsulation" as an option he may not have considered.
>

I'm not a builder, nor a maintenance guru. I do wonder if it's actually feasible to bet a good epoxy coating on a boat that's been used, and in which the "sump" has had exposure to (dirty) water.

As I understand, the big risk of rot is in wood that goes through wet/dry cycles. If your boat doesn't leak all (from top or bottom), maybe you can look toward increasing ventilation that will keep it dry. A solar panel and an electric fan, for instance.

On the subject of leaks, I think in a amateur ply/epoxy boat, it may be harder to keep out the rain than the sea.

Have you thought about cutting a hole in the keel , or even removing a panel, so you could actually see the problem and correct it ? Sounds like you need to seal the joints along with the ply.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat <patjah@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you everyone for those words of wisdom an experience.
> The thing that is keeping me up at nights is that I buildt a garvey about 4
> years ago out of the same ply the long micro is buildt out of and it is
> starting to delaminate. The ply vanners are fine, but the type gule its made
> out of and its application leave allot to be desired.
> The Garvy sat out in the tropical sun, on the water all year round and had
> alot of use, but I did keep an eye on it maintenance wise. Also I just
> poured water in to the compartments to see how much epoxy/antifouling/bitum
> I would need, and water started to come out of other compartments. So there
> are places the ply did not contact the inner framing lumber which leads me
> to believe there are screws pricing the ply and not contacting to inner
> lumber A great place for water to enter the inner veneers.
> I was trying to think of products that had some gap filling capacity that
> were waterproof and were not too expensive and toxic. The most water proof
> product I could find was funny enough paraffin wax.Which is even more
> waterproof than epoxy. Also I was considering bitumen roofing membrane. I
> was thinking to fill the compartments one by one to the brim and drain them.
> Again thank you all for your comments ...? I may be overthinking this point
> and perhaps I should go sailing!
> Cheers
>

Thank you everyone for those words of wisdom an experience.

The thing that is keeping me up at nights is that I buildt a garvey about 4 years ago out of the same ply the long micro is buildt out of and it is starting to delaminate. The ply vanners are fine, but the type gule its made out of and its application leave allot to be desired.

The Garvy sat out in the tropical sun, on the water all year round and had alot of use, but I did keep an eye on it maintenance wise. Also I just poured water in to the compartments to see how much epoxy/antifouling/bitum I would need, and water started to come out of other compartments. So there are places the ply did not contact the inner framing lumber which leads me to believe there are screws pricing the ply and not contacting to inner lumber A great place for water to enter the inner veneers.

I was trying to think of products that had some gap filling capacity that were waterproof and were not too expensive and toxic. The most water proof product I could find was funny enough paraffin wax.Which is even more waterproof than epoxy. Also I was considering bitumen roofing membrane. I was thinking to fill the compartments one by one to the brim and drain them.

Again thank you all for your comments ...? I may be overthinking this point and perhaps I should go sailing!

Cheers

Epoxy will just delay the inevitable. I used penetrating epoxy that is thinner and does soak into the wood some. Then went over with 3 coats of regular epoxy. Is this Micro trailer sailed? Some builders have opted to close in the keel. Just fill the flooding chambers with epoxy and seal it up. I do like the first idea, don't worry about it and go sailing....

Regards,

Dennis
Bellingham, WA

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> For what it is worth. Okume is not rot resistant; meranti and sapele are
> more rot resistant. Epoxy coating works well, so long as the coating is not
> broken by a scratch or scrape. A break potentially lets water in and may
> create a rot trap. A break is less likely if the hull is sheathed with
> fiberglass.
>
>
>
> Since I dislike sanding, I prefer glued plywood lapstrake construction using
> meranti and no epoxy coating, but builders I respect have different views.
> And I'm and old man, so most any of my boats will last longer than I will!
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Dave Gentry
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 1:12 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Long micro keel question- on behalf of Pat
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
> > If it takes twice as long to build a boat covered with epoxy, and the
> > epoxy boat lasts twice as long as a boat not covered with epoxy, why
> > not build two boats and start sailing sooner?
>
> A fine sentiment! But, marine plywood being engineered for use in marine
> environments, there's no reason that the epoxy covered boat would live any
> longer at all. Perhaps even less so, as epoxy is only moisture resistant,
> and retains water just as well as it keeps it out.
>
> Of course, this subject has been debated endlessly elsewhere, and likely
> here, too. It's obvious which side of it I adhere to (har har!), but many
> people believe otherwise. I just wanted to present "non-encapsulation" as an
> option he may not have considered.
>

For what it is worth… Okume is not rot resistant; meranti and sapele are more rot resistant. Epoxy coating works well, so long as the coating is not broken by a scratch or scrape. A break potentially lets water in and may create a rot trap. A break is less likely if the hull is sheathed with fiberglass.

Since I dislike sanding, I prefer glued plywood lapstrake construction using meranti and no epoxy coating, but builders I respect have different views. And I’m and old man, so most any of my boats will last longer than I will!

JohnT

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf OfDave Gentry
Sent:Sunday, February 06, 2011 1:12 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Re: Long micro keel question- on behalf of Pat

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:

> If it takes twice as long to build a boat covered with epoxy, and the
> epoxy boat lasts twice as long as a boat not covered with epoxy, why
> not build two boats and start sailing sooner?

A fine sentiment! But, marine plywood being engineered for use in marine environments, there's no reason that the epoxy covered boat would live any longer at all. Perhaps even less so, as epoxy is only moisture resistant, and retains water just as well as it keeps it out.

Of course, this subject has been debated endlessly elsewhere, and likely here, too. It's obvious which side of it I adhere to (har har!), but many people believe otherwise. I just wanted to present "non-encapsulation" as an option he may not have considered.

Marine-Borers do like to take on the comforts and shelter of a centerboard trunk, or here the insides of the keel-assembly. Floating in as larvae and 'setting up shop' seems more inviting by bare ply versus the unpalatable epoxy-layer. If you have borers in your water, as we do in Gloucester, MA, this might need considering.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----
From:Dave Gentry
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Sunday, February 06, 2011 1:12 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Long micro keel question- on behalf of Pat

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
> If it takes twice as long to build a boat covered with epoxy, and the
> epoxy boat lasts twice as long as a boat not covered with epoxy, why
> not build two boats and start sailing sooner?

A fine sentiment! But, marine plywood being engineered for use in marine environments, there's no reason that the epoxy covered boat would live any longer at all. Perhaps even less so, as epoxy is only moisture resistant, and retains water just as well as it keeps it out.

Of course, this subject has been debated endlessly elsewhere, and likely here, too. It's obvious which side of it I adhere to (har har!), but many people believe otherwise. I just wanted to present "non-encapsulation" as an option he may not have considered.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:

> If it takes twice as long to build a boat covered with epoxy, and the
> epoxy boat lasts twice as long as a boat not covered with epoxy, why
> not build two boats and start sailing sooner?

> You could tell Pat that there's no need to coat with epoxy, and that he should just go sailing.

If it takes twice as long to build a boat covered with epoxy, and the
epoxy boat lasts twice as long as a boat not covered with epoxy, why
not build two boats and start sailing sooner?

I

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:

>
> Pat (in Thailand) asked . . . When I built the keel I am afraid I did >not coat enough epoxy on the inside of the hollow keel.

You could tell Pat that there's no need to coat with epoxy, and that he should just go sailing. Though epoxy "sealing" of already waterproof plywood is very popular - and thoroughly endorsed by epoxy retailers - many experienced boat builders know that it serves little purpose (except to add weight, expense, time and gobs of effort to a project). In the words of Dave Carnell, epoxy encapsulation "does not keep the water out of the wood boat that lives in the water and a dry sailed boat doesn't need it."
In any case, if his boat is going to live in the water, I bet he'd be far better served by trying to get some decent anti-fouling paint up in there, rather than epoxy. Some things grow even in the dark!

What about glass bead fillers or saw dust from a blender to save epoxy ?

--- OnSat, 2/5/11, William<kingw@...>wrote:

From: William <kingw@...>
Subject: [bolger] Long micro keel question- on behalf of Pat
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 5, 2011, 9:38 AM

Pat (in Thailand) asked that I post the following question here, as he cannot log into Yahoo groups. Please reply to the group. I'll forward answers to him if necessary.
*******************************
Susanne
I have just built a long micro, and I have a question about the hollow keel. When I built the keel I am afraid I did not coat enough epoxy on the inside of the hollow keel. I have tried every way that I can imagine to coat the inside. The only way I can think is to plug the bottom flooding holes and to pour coal tar epoxy in the top flooding holes until the flooding compartments are full and then drain them. I think this is a rather expensive solution as I will have to discard approx 10 litres of the left over coal tar epoxy.

Can you suggest and alternative technique or material for flooding the compartments.

Regards
PAT
*********************************

Pat (in Thailand) asked that I post the following question here, as he cannot log into Yahoo groups. Please reply to the group. I'll forward answers to him if necessary.
*******************************
Susanne
I have just built a long micro, and I have a question about the hollow keel. When I built the keel I am afraid I did not coat enough epoxy on the inside of the hollow keel. I have tried every way that I can imagine to coat the inside. The only way I can think is to plug the bottom flooding holes and to pour coal tar epoxy in the top flooding holes until the flooding compartments are full and then drain them. I think this is a rather expensive solution as I will have to discard approx 10 litres of the left over coal tar epoxy.

Can you suggest and alternative technique or material for flooding the compartments.

Regards
PAT
*********************************