Re: Isometric design 369, shoal draft whaler ketch
I meant to say Roger Taylor...not Roger Duncan. I got my Rogers confused.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "lancefgunderson" <lancefgunderson@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
> >
> > Here is a recent isometric rendering of a 29 footer, a shoal draft
> > whaler ketch, Phil Bolger's design 369 (from Small Boat Journal 1980)
> >
> >http://www.hallman.org/bolger/369/
> >
>
> Good one Bruce! Roger Duncan's Van Dine Tancook Whaler used to be here in Kittery Point; I admired how she sailed. I suspect this one would be even better, and shoal draft. Has anyone built one?
>
> The boat he referred to was the Keel Whaler Sloop on pg.208Another beautiful boat.
> of his book 30 Odd Boats.
The boat he referred to was the Keel Whaler Sloop on pg.208 of his book 30 Odd Boats.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
>
> > He wrote that but I think he was referring to a different
> > double-ender, a smaller one that is in Small Boats.
>
> Just because I hate to think I misquoted something, I looked it up. The last paragraph of the Whaler Ketch (i.e. #369) chapter of "Different Boats" begins like this:
>
> "Years ago I designed a smaller boat that looked something like this one, with the same object of being pleasant to look at. The fit time I saw her she was lying between two Francis Herreshoff Rozinante ketches, which dampened my conceit a little."
>
> I assumed that the earlier boat was Quickstep, a 20' double-ended yawl that is in "Small Boats", but I don't think I have any confirmation of that. I have to say that Quickstep always looked like a dubious proposition to me beging a quite complicated boat for her size and accommodations. PCB designed better boats in this class later on, such as the triple-keel sloop (not a double-ender, but very pretty). If you have to have a double-ender, go with the Nord Koster for an open boat, or Pico for a cabin boat. If you are really ambitious, maybe PCB's plans of the Albert Strange yawl Wenda.
>
> He wrote that but I think he was referring to a differentJust because I hate to think I misquoted something, I looked it up. The last paragraph of the Whaler Ketch (i.e. #369) chapter of "Different Boats" begins like this:
> double-ender, a smaller one that is in Small Boats.
"Years ago I designed a smaller boat that looked something like this one, with the same object of being pleasant to look at. The fit time I saw her she was lying between two Francis Herreshoff Rozinante ketches, which dampened my conceit a little."
I assumed that the earlier boat was Quickstep, a 20' double-ended yawl that is in "Small Boats", but I don't think I have any confirmation of that. I have to say that Quickstep always looked like a dubious proposition to me beging a quite complicated boat for her size and accommodations. PCB designed better boats in this class later on, such as the triple-keel sloop (not a double-ender, but very pretty). If you have to have a double-ender, go with the Nord Koster for an open boat, or Pico for a cabin boat. If you are really ambitious, maybe PCB's plans of the Albert Strange yawl Wenda.
Dear Bruce Hallman
First, all this great work presenting us w/Phils designs via Hull-forms,
now replaying his prose. I know, I'm not alone in saying "THANK-YOU,
SIR" (Cause I miss Phil's words.) Concise accurate information laced
with historical references,uncommon humility and sharp satirical wit.
I think I discovered Mr Bolger when I got the first issue of Small Boat
magazine. Remember that great large square magazine format? I think it
was Doveky(Bolger on Design). Such a different boat(not that I knew
anything about boats) AND a very different sounding man!
Well I learned a lot about boats in the next 40 years and a big part of
that came from PCB and the trails he sent me on. Found you on one of
those trails and glad I did.
If you walk down a dock of beautiful boats and happen upon a
Rozinante...!!!!!! The fact that Bolger walked and worked in footsteps
of Mr H says it all.Objectively seeing his place in that line(maybe more
modesty than reality)......what a guy and when he wrote you a letter it
felt like you where talking to a supportive neighbor.
Thanks Bruce
Mike Graf
BruceHallman wrote:
First, all this great work presenting us w/Phils designs via Hull-forms,
now replaying his prose. I know, I'm not alone in saying "THANK-YOU,
SIR" (Cause I miss Phil's words.) Concise accurate information laced
with historical references,uncommon humility and sharp satirical wit.
I think I discovered Mr Bolger when I got the first issue of Small Boat
magazine. Remember that great large square magazine format? I think it
was Doveky(Bolger on Design). Such a different boat(not that I knew
anything about boats) AND a very different sounding man!
Well I learned a lot about boats in the next 40 years and a big part of
that came from PCB and the trails he sent me on. Found you on one of
those trails and glad I did.
If you walk down a dock of beautiful boats and happen upon a
Rozinante...!!!!!! The fact that Bolger walked and worked in footsteps
of Mr H says it all.Objectively seeing his place in that line(maybe more
modesty than reality)......what a guy and when he wrote you a letter it
felt like you where talking to a supportive neighbor.
Thanks Bruce
Mike Graf
BruceHallman wrote:
>
> The write up for Bolger's design 369 comes from Small Boat Journal
> V.6, (1980)
>
> After having modeled 369 (and having studied Rozinante), I think the
> cabin of Rozinante is great, and that 369 is an unfortunate
> compromise. The cabin of Rozinante is a masterpiece. That said, 369
> is compromised in part to achieve shoal water performance that
> Rozinante can only dream about.
>
> Here is a partial excerpt from that article where PCB discusses the
> laced with jewels of
> pluses and minuses of the decision between centerboards and leeboards:
>
> PCB: "She has the long slab-sided keel so she can sail to windward in
> less than 30" of water, making long boards over the flats at
> half-tide. A keel like this is an inefficient windward device; she'll
> be slow any time she has to point at all high and can't use her
> centerboard, there aren't many boats with her other capabilities that
> can make good anything at all to windward in as little water as that.
> A keel like this also damps down her steering, so the tiller can be
> left for a few minutes without much preparation - though it's not
> especially good for indefinite self-steering. Structurally, of course,
> it gives an immensely solid backbone.
>
> I told Peter (the client) that leeboards were the obvious way to
> supplement this keel for windward work. He and his wife wouldn't have
> it, for the unanswerable reason that leeboards are ugly and they
> wanted their boat to be beautiful. Nobody in that frame of mind is
> going to get much argument from me - once I've made sure they know
> what they're paying for the good looks, namely:
>
> 1) It is about twice as long a job to build the keel structure to take
> the centerboard. I'd guess the difference might be a week's full-time
> work. Not a bad trade, perhaps. Many years after oaths and
> imprecations of that week's work have died away, the results will be
> giving satisfaction.
>
> 2) She won't sail to windward quite as well in very shallow water,
> because a leeboard would still be helping her to hold on in depths
> that will force the centerboard all the way up. As against that, the
> centerboard is likely to be faster in deep water because it doesn't
> generate the turbulence that a leeboard does where it approaches the
> side of the hull.
>
> 3) As long as she floats, everybody working his way into or out of the
> cabin will curse the centerboard case. There are ingenious ways of
> getting around this, but they all either make the board less
> effective, liable to frequent jams, or - usually - both. We settled
> for keeping the board out of Peter's bed, and for seating that faces
> aft so the case doesn't kill the footroom. For a rough mock-up, the
> access below appears to be just barely workable for fairly limber
> people.
>
> If she were going to be mine, I think I'd have leeboards. The client
> values looks a little more than I do. Benedicite! I've often thought
> people who pay for lovely boats ought to get a tax break on them for
> the improvement of public scenery."
>
>
The write up for Bolger's design 369 comes from Small Boat Journal V.6, (1980)
After having modeled 369 (and having studied Rozinante), I think the
cabin of Rozinante is great, and that 369 is an unfortunate
compromise. The cabin of Rozinante is a masterpiece. That said, 369
is compromised in part to achieve shoal water performance that
Rozinante can only dream about.
Here is a partial excerpt from that article where PCB discusses the
pluses and minuses of the decision between centerboards and leeboards:
PCB: "She has the long slab-sided keel so she can sail to windward in
less than 30" of water, making long boards over the flats at
half-tide. A keel like this is an inefficient windward device; she'll
be slow any time she has to point at all high and can't use her
centerboard, there aren't many boats with her other capabilities that
can make good anything at all to windward in as little water as that.
A keel like this also damps down her steering, so the tiller can be
left for a few minutes without much preparation - though it's not
especially good for indefinite self-steering. Structurally, of course,
it gives an immensely solid backbone.
I told Peter (the client) that leeboards were the obvious way to
supplement this keel for windward work. He and his wife wouldn't have
it, for the unanswerable reason that leeboards are ugly and they
wanted their boat to be beautiful. Nobody in that frame of mind is
going to get much argument from me - once I've made sure they know
what they're paying for the good looks, namely:
1) It is about twice as long a job to build the keel structure to take
the centerboard. I'd guess the difference might be a week's full-time
work. Not a bad trade, perhaps. Many years after oaths and
imprecations of that week's work have died away, the results will be
giving satisfaction.
2) She won't sail to windward quite as well in very shallow water,
because a leeboard would still be helping her to hold on in depths
that will force the centerboard all the way up. As against that, the
centerboard is likely to be faster in deep water because it doesn't
generate the turbulence that a leeboard does where it approaches the
side of the hull.
3) As long as she floats, everybody working his way into or out of the
cabin will curse the centerboard case. There are ingenious ways of
getting around this, but they all either make the board less
effective, liable to frequent jams, or - usually - both. We settled
for keeping the board out of Peter's bed, and for seating that faces
aft so the case doesn't kill the footroom. For a rough mock-up, the
access below appears to be just barely workable for fairly limber
people.
If she were going to be mine, I think I'd have leeboards. The client
values looks a little more than I do. Benedicite! I've often thought
people who pay for lovely boats ought to get a tax break on them for
the improvement of public scenery."
After having modeled 369 (and having studied Rozinante), I think the
cabin of Rozinante is great, and that 369 is an unfortunate
compromise. The cabin of Rozinante is a masterpiece. That said, 369
is compromised in part to achieve shoal water performance that
Rozinante can only dream about.
Here is a partial excerpt from that article where PCB discusses the
pluses and minuses of the decision between centerboards and leeboards:
PCB: "She has the long slab-sided keel so she can sail to windward in
less than 30" of water, making long boards over the flats at
half-tide. A keel like this is an inefficient windward device; she'll
be slow any time she has to point at all high and can't use her
centerboard, there aren't many boats with her other capabilities that
can make good anything at all to windward in as little water as that.
A keel like this also damps down her steering, so the tiller can be
left for a few minutes without much preparation - though it's not
especially good for indefinite self-steering. Structurally, of course,
it gives an immensely solid backbone.
I told Peter (the client) that leeboards were the obvious way to
supplement this keel for windward work. He and his wife wouldn't have
it, for the unanswerable reason that leeboards are ugly and they
wanted their boat to be beautiful. Nobody in that frame of mind is
going to get much argument from me - once I've made sure they know
what they're paying for the good looks, namely:
1) It is about twice as long a job to build the keel structure to take
the centerboard. I'd guess the difference might be a week's full-time
work. Not a bad trade, perhaps. Many years after oaths and
imprecations of that week's work have died away, the results will be
giving satisfaction.
2) She won't sail to windward quite as well in very shallow water,
because a leeboard would still be helping her to hold on in depths
that will force the centerboard all the way up. As against that, the
centerboard is likely to be faster in deep water because it doesn't
generate the turbulence that a leeboard does where it approaches the
side of the hull.
3) As long as she floats, everybody working his way into or out of the
cabin will curse the centerboard case. There are ingenious ways of
getting around this, but they all either make the board less
effective, liable to frequent jams, or - usually - both. We settled
for keeping the board out of Peter's bed, and for seating that faces
aft so the case doesn't kill the footroom. For a rough mock-up, the
access below appears to be just barely workable for fairly limber
people.
If she were going to be mine, I think I'd have leeboards. The client
values looks a little more than I do. Benedicite! I've often thought
people who pay for lovely boats ought to get a tax break on them for
the improvement of public scenery."
> Hi Lance. I think that the Peter Lane, who commissioned the design,He did some drawings for a leeboard versions, and I think she may have a been built too, but I don't know for sure.
> built one.
>I recall that PCB wrote that he was humbled that, (whileHe wrote that but I think he was referring to a different double-ender, a smaller one that is in Small Boats. I don't recall the name. There is nothing to apologize for in #369.
> he tried to make 369 a work of art), when he saw it moored between two
> Herresoff Rozinantes, that his 369 design "seemed affected".
We have a Van Dyne whaler around here. I've only seen her underway once or twice. For my money, she's a better all-round proposition than Rozinante due to a better interior. It's probably a minor point, but I do have some trouble with the action of the tiller due to the raked stern post causing it to be higher when centered. At the dock, it's always flopped inelegantly to the side, and I wonder if the "fall to the side" propensity affects the feel underway.
Hi Lance. I think that the Peter Lane, who commissioned the design,
built one. I recall that PCB wrote that he was humbled that, (while
he tried to make 369 a work of art), when he saw it moored between two
Herresoff Rozinantes, that his 369 design "seemed affected".
Bruce.
On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:51 PM, lancefgunderson
<lancefgunderson@...> wrote:
built one. I recall that PCB wrote that he was humbled that, (while
he tried to make 369 a work of art), when he saw it moored between two
Herresoff Rozinantes, that his 369 design "seemed affected".
Bruce.
On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:51 PM, lancefgunderson
<lancefgunderson@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
> >
> > Here is a recent isometric rendering of a 29 footer, a shoal draft
> > whaler ketch, Phil Bolger's design 369 (from Small Boat Journal 1980)
> >
> >http://www.hallman.org/bolger/369/
> >
>
> Good one Bruce! Roger Duncan's Van Dine Tancook Whaler used to be here in Kittery Point; I admired how she sailed. I suspect this one would be even better, and shoal draft. Has anyone built one?
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>Good one Bruce! Roger Duncan's Van Dine Tancook Whaler used to be here in Kittery Point; I admired how she sailed. I suspect this one would be even better, and shoal draft. Has anyone built one?
> Here is a recent isometric rendering of a 29 footer, a shoal draft
> whaler ketch, Phil Bolger's design 369 (from Small Boat Journal 1980)
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/369/
>
Here is a recent isometric rendering of a 29 footer, a shoal draft
whaler ketch, Phil Bolger's design 369 (from Small Boat Journal 1980)
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/369/
whaler ketch, Phil Bolger's design 369 (from Small Boat Journal 1980)
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/369/