Re: Alternative mast for a Surf?

unfortunatly my 'sailing' experience is rather limited, most of my logged hours have been on a 92 tonn Sail Training Yacht (HMCS Oriole). I've spent a few days on a 27ft Catalina, unfortunatly considering I was as they say "Three Sheets to the Wind" I suspect the Boston faggedaboudit would be the smarter choice;) I do appreciate all the feedback from everyone though!

Thank you once again
Steve

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "seadog1640" <allan.pickman@...> wrote:
>
> This sounds like a very dubious proposition. You would increase the sail area of the boat by more than a third. You would raise the center of effort by more than a half, based on luff length alone. The venture 15 sail has some roach, and you would have to raise the tack higher than that on Bolger's sail plan to minimize the risk of TBI. The healing moment would be significantly more than double that of the original design.
>
> You do not mention your sailing experience. If you grew up racing Flying Dutchmen, 505s or Thistles, go for it, but add add at least two sets of reef points. If this is your first sailboat, as they say in Boston, faggedaboudit.
>
> As an afterthought, looking at the Surf plans, she has tanks bow and stern, but nothing in the sides. This is not a boat that will cheerfully stay upright when flooded. This is a not characteristic you want in a boat that you expect to capsize in on a regular basis, which you should if you put the Venture rig on her.
>
> In full disclosure, I have never sailed a Surf, and have never sailed any PCB boat built completely to plans. My sense is, over many years of reading, is that his designs are well thought out, and are not easily improved on. Also, in full disclosure, I have capsized many times, in a variety of boats, good and bad, over the last 50 years, and I hope to do so a few more times. As I get older,
> I get fussier about the boats that might send me swimming.
>
> Allan
> in the hills
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "cupofjoeonthefirstdog" <paradox_4@> wrote:
> >
> > I picked up a Venture Cat 15 mast and sails for next to nothing and would like to step it on my 15 ft Bolger Surf - The sail area is different and the mast is two feet longer than the Surf askes for. I am curious if anyone knows how to calculate the maximum sail area a Surf could take and also if the diference in mast height will cause me any other issues?
> >
> > here are the Sail specs
> >
> > Venture Cat 15 MAINSAIL
> >
> > Luff 22.25ft (6781mm)
> > Foot 8.25ft (2514mm)
> > Leech-AftHdBd 19*ft (5791mm)
> > Tack Ang 57.73*
> > Diag (clew/head) 19.16ft (5839mm)
> > Head (inches) 3.5*in (89mm)
> > Area (no Roach) 79.93*ft2 (7426mm2)
> > Comments 7 full battens - Loose Footed
> >
> > BOLGER SURF LEG-O-MUTTON
> >
> > Luff 14.25ft (4343mm)
> > Foot 9ft (2743mm)
> > Leech 13.62ft (4151mm)
> > Tack Angle 67.14*
> > Diag (clew/head) 13.58ft (4139mm)
> > Head (Inches) 1.5in (38mm)
> > Area 59.9*ft2 (5565mm2)
> >
> > Cheers & Thank you in advance
> > Steve
> >
>

This sounds like a very dubious proposition. You would increase the sail area of the boat by more than a third. You would raise the center of effort by more than a half, based on luff length alone. The venture 15 sail has some roach, and you would have to raise the tack higher than that on Bolger's sail plan to minimize the risk of TBI. The healing moment would be significantly more than double that of the original design.

You do not mention your sailing experience. If you grew up racing Flying Dutchmen, 505s or Thistles, go for it, but add add at least two sets of reef points. If this is your first sailboat, as they say in Boston, faggedaboudit.

As an afterthought, looking at the Surf plans, she has tanks bow and stern, but nothing in the sides. This is not a boat that will cheerfully stay upright when flooded. This is a not characteristic you want in a boat that you expect to capsize in on a regular basis, which you should if you put the Venture rig on her.

In full disclosure, I have never sailed a Surf, and have never sailed any PCB boat built completely to plans. My sense is, over many years of reading, is that his designs are well thought out, and are not easily improved on. Also, in full disclosure, I have capsized many times, in a variety of boats, good and bad, over the last 50 years, and I hope to do so a few more times. As I get older,
I get fussier about the boats that might send me swimming.

Allan
in the hills

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "cupofjoeonthefirstdog" <paradox_4@...> wrote:
>
> I picked up a Venture Cat 15 mast and sails for next to nothing and would like to step it on my 15 ft Bolger Surf - The sail area is different and the mast is two feet longer than the Surf askes for. I am curious if anyone knows how to calculate the maximum sail area a Surf could take and also if the diference in mast height will cause me any other issues?
>
> here are the Sail specs
>
> Venture Cat 15 MAINSAIL
>
> Luff 22.25ft (6781mm)
> Foot 8.25ft (2514mm)
> Leech-AftHdBd 19*ft (5791mm)
> Tack Ang 57.73*
> Diag (clew/head) 19.16ft (5839mm)
> Head (inches) 3.5*in (89mm)
> Area (no Roach) 79.93*ft2 (7426mm2)
> Comments 7 full battens - Loose Footed
>
> BOLGER SURF LEG-O-MUTTON
>
> Luff 14.25ft (4343mm)
> Foot 9ft (2743mm)
> Leech 13.62ft (4151mm)
> Tack Angle 67.14*
> Diag (clew/head) 13.58ft (4139mm)
> Head (Inches) 1.5in (38mm)
> Area 59.9*ft2 (5565mm2)
>
> Cheers & Thank you in advance
> Steve
>

I don't have that one yet - I'll grab it today before work. Thank you once again for all the help everyone:)

Steve

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Allison" <mysloop@...> wrote:
>
> I know he does in the back issues.
>
> Mike Allison...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: daschultz2000
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:21 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Alternative mast for a Surf?
>
>
>
> Jim Michalaks "Boat Building for Beginners and Beyond" contains the information you need. You might also get on to his blog via Duckworks. I think it is called Jim's Boats. He likely has articles about sail area calculations there.
>

I know he does in the back issues.

Mike Allison...

----- Original Message -----
From:daschultz2000
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, March 21, 2011 8:21 AM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Alternative mast for a Surf?

Jim Michalaks "Boat Building for Beginners and Beyond" contains the information you need. You might also get on to his blog via Duckworks. I think it is called Jim's Boats. He likely has articles about sail area calculations there.

Jim Michalaks "Boat Building for Beginners and Beyond" contains the information you need. You might also get on to his blog via Duckworks. I think it is called Jim's Boats. He likely has articles about sail area calculations there.

Who needs trapeze? LookHere

On 3/20/2011 2:34 PM, John and Kathy Trussell wrote:
Power can be improved by hiking out or even, I suppose, with a trapeze. However, a hiking crewman has only a narrow gunwale to sit on and hiking would become uncomfortable/painful in a very short period of time, and some major beef up and standing rigging would be needed for a trapeze.

appreciated John:)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> Maximum area is somewhat nebulous. If you normally sail in light air
> conditions, or you are athletic and acrobatic, and/or you have no concerns
> about capsize (and capsize recovery) more sail area is great. Look at the
> 'dinghies' the Australians race for an example of a lot of sail on small
> boats. However, if you prefer to avoid panic parties and white knuckles,
> less sail area has a lot to recommend it. The Windmill Class used to have a
> t-shirt that said, 'I'd rather hike than heel!' to which one of the older
> sailors add, 'But I'm not able!' and to which I would add, 'So I reef.'
>
>
>
> Surf is a flat bottomed boat without a great deal of power to carry sail.
> Power can be improved by hiking out or even, I suppose, with a trapeze.
> However, a hiking crewman has only a narrow gunwale to sit on and hiking
> would become uncomfortable/painful in a very short period of time, and some
> major beef up and standing rigging would be needed for a trapeze. I would be
> inclined to stick with the original rig.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> cupofjoeonthefirstdog
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:08 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Alternative mast for a Surf?
>
>
>
>
>
> I picked up a Venture Cat 15 mast and sails for next to nothing and would
> like to step it on my 15 ft Bolger Surf - The sail area is different and the
> mast is two feet longer than the Surf askes for. I am curious if anyone
> knows how to calculate the maximum sail area a Surf could take and also if
> the diference in mast height will cause me any other issues?
>
> here are the Sail specs
>
> Venture Cat 15 MAINSAIL
>
> Luff 22.25ft (6781mm)
> Foot 8.25ft (2514mm)
> Leech-AftHdBd 19*ft (5791mm)
> Tack Ang 57.73*
> Diag (clew/head) 19.16ft (5839mm)
> Head (inches) 3.5*in (89mm)
> Area (no Roach) 79.93*ft2 (7426mm2)
> Comments 7 full battens - Loose Footed
>
> BOLGER SURF LEG-O-MUTTON
>
> Luff 14.25ft (4343mm)
> Foot 9ft (2743mm)
> Leech 13.62ft (4151mm)
> Tack Angle 67.14*
> Diag (clew/head) 13.58ft (4139mm)
> Head (Inches) 1.5in (38mm)
> Area 59.9*ft2 (5565mm2)
>
> Cheers & Thank you in advance
> Steve
>

Maximum area is somewhat nebulous. If you normally sail in light air conditions, or you are athletic and acrobatic, and/or you have no concerns about capsize (and capsize recovery) more sail area is great. Look at the ‘dinghies’ the Australians race for an example of a lot of sail on small boats. However, if you prefer to avoid panic parties and white knuckles, less sail area has a lot to recommend it. The Windmill Class used to have a t-shirt that said, ‘I’d rather hike than heel!’ to which one of the older sailors add, ‘But I’m not able!’ and to which I would add, ‘So I reef…’

Surf is a flat bottomed boat without a great deal of power to carry sail. Power can be improved by hiking out or even, I suppose, with a trapeze. However, a hiking crewman has only a narrow gunwale to sit on and hiking would become uncomfortable/painful in a very short period of time, and some major beef up and standing rigging would be needed for a trapeze. I would be inclined to stick with the original rig.

JohnT

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Ofcupofjoeonthefirstdog
Sent:Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:08 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Alternative mast for a Surf?

I picked up a Venture Cat 15 mast and sails for next to nothing and would like to step it on my 15 ft Bolger Surf - The sail area is different and the mast is two feet longer than the Surf askes for. I am curious if anyone knows how to calculate the maximum sail area a Surf could take and also if the diference in mast height will cause me any other issues?

here are the Sail specs

Venture Cat 15 MAINSAIL

Luff 22.25ft (6781mm)
Foot 8.25ft (2514mm)
Leech-AftHdBd 19*ft (5791mm)
Tack Ang 57.73*
Diag (clew/head) 19.16ft (5839mm)
Head (inches) 3.5*in (89mm)
Area (no Roach) 79.93*ft2 (7426mm2)
Comments 7 full battens - Loose Footed

BOLGER SURF LEG-O-MUTTON

Luff 14.25ft (4343mm)
Foot 9ft (2743mm)
Leech 13.62ft (4151mm)
Tack Angle 67.14*
Diag (clew/head) 13.58ft (4139mm)
Head (Inches) 1.5in (38mm)
Area 59.9*ft2 (5565mm2)

Cheers & Thank you in advance
Steve