Re: More Micro keel questions


Just as a footnote, antimony may develop a bad reputation out of this thread.
I've only cast the smallest bit of lead myself, enuf to sink a rudder. But L. Francis Herreshoff promotes it in Sensible Cruising Designs as, IIRC, 'easier to work' than otherwise.

No book handy.

 
On Apr 22, 2011, at 11:25 PM, fishtronics wrote:
 


Hi Rod, lead is more like plastic than steel. The stuff from the printer has antimony in it, making it harder, but still plastic (extra good for casting bullets). Try going to a plastic store and get a drill bit made for Lexan, like these:

http://www.rplastics.com/plasticdrill.html

It has the point dulled properly. Also make sure you drill at very slow speed, use a variable speed drill, don't push too hard, and pull out frequently to clear the chips. Use kerosene as a lube, get a oilcan and keep pumping it in as you drill. Some say milk works, but I have not tried it. Jason K

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@...> wrote:
>
> Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>

__
Hi Rod, lead is more like plastic than steel. The stuff from the printer has antimony in it, making it harder, but still plastic (extra good for casting bullets). Try going to a plastic store and get a drill bit made for Lexan, like these:

http://www.rplastics.com/plasticdrill.html

It has the point dulled properly. Also make sure you drill at very slow speed, use a variable speed drill, don't push too hard, and pull out frequently to clear the chips. Use kerosene as a lube, get a oilcan and keep pumping it in as you drill. Some say milk works, but I have not tried it. Jason K

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@...> wrote:
>
> Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>
Thanks for this, David.

I'm making up for 15 years of it all at once here, though. It's been refinished a couple of times. Now, won't bear much sanding without going through the outer ply. The decks are toast, but the cracks aren't as bad throughout the planks, though spread all over.

I'm amazed there's no evidence of rot yet, even along the chines. Pretty good epoxy gluing and especially the outside timbers seemed to really help there.

The boat has one or two of it's nine lives left, so I suppose the thing to do is switch from varnish to the thickest paint I can find and call it good.


On Apr 17, 2011, at 3:54 AM, dnjost wrote:

 

I have a pointy skiff that is 25 years old now. I used luan underlayment for the sides and every spring I find the delaminated areas, peal them apart, let it dry, sand and apply glass and filler as needed. I can't believe it, but the boat still floats. This of course only works on thin sheets of 1/4" where there are only 3 layers. It is amazing how far you can go with this technique. I use epoxy and glass, not polyester as that would be subject to peel.
Reply tosender|Reply togroup|Replyvia web post|Start a New Topic

.


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> I recently built a Storm 17 (English kit from Swallow Boats) and the
> instructions called for filling a void in the centerboard with lead
> flashings. I couldn't find any so I made a mixture of birdshot and epoxy to
> fill the void. It worked fine except for a couple of loose shot which
> sometimes rattle. As I recall, Old Shoe has quite a lot of lead and that
> much bird shot might be prohibitively expensive.
>

Lead flashing is a standard building supply. It is used to flash shingles and other roofing material to masonry. The typical use is flashing around a brick chimney. The lead sheets are embedded in the mortar joints in the brick, and folded down over the counter flashing (aluminum or whatever that is interwoven with the shingles). The lifespan of the lead is more or less the same as the masonry, and its softness allows the roofers to pry it up, reshingle and flash, and bend down the lead again.

If not available from a general building material supplier, my next place to look would be a supplier that specializes in masonry, as the mason is the tradesman that usually installs it.

Lead flashing does not need hardness, and requires long term flexibility, so it probably has little or no antimony mixed in, and is very malleable, which is what you want if you are hammering sheets into a hole in a centerboard, then fairing and epoxying in place.

I was once at an archaeological dig at he site of an 18th century home. They dug up a bit of weathered sheet lead, and had no idea what it was. I explained what it was, and that it would be very hard to date, as the technology hadn't changed significantly since white man first came to the Americas.

Find the place that sell bricks, and they will have lead flashing, or they will know where to get it.

Allan
In the hills.
I'll add one more thing...drill slowly! the heat of the bit melts the lead, which of course then sets up again thus breaking the bit. The diesel fuel/light oil lubricant helps prevent that too of course.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "etap28" <dave.irland@...> wrote:
>
>
> lead drilling: yes, knocking the edge off the bit will work on lead. But, by far the easiest way to drill lead in my experience is a forstner bit. I had to prep a giant chunk of lead (47 foot boat) for keel bolts, including large side access holes for the bottom nuts, and after a learning curve (nobody knew nothin') discovered that a forstner bit pretty much works in lead the same as it works in wood, only slower. No clogging, minimal jamming (use WD40 liberally), doesn't even hurt the bit. Not much use for the tinier holes (I don't think forstners come in less than maybe 1/4"?)
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with Joe. Dou't use screws ,use ring nails. I am a machinist so
> > have drilled a lot of holes. The problem is not that the lead is hard,
> > but that it is that it is soft. It is so soft that the twist in the
> > drill shape causes it to suck in bind up and break. Lead and copper
> > both soft have the same problem where drilling is concerned. Steel is
> > many times harder than any kind of lead. In it is fairly easy to drill.
> > IF there is any other way you just do not drill lead. It can be drilled
> > but you have to resharpen the drill point in a certain kind of way. It's
> > called dubbing the drill point but you have to know what you are doing.
> > I suggest not drilling lead. Doug
> >
> >
> > On 04/15/2011 04:01 AM, Joe T wrote:
> > >
> > > What's with drilling holes? On my Oldshoe keel I just hammered in
> > > bronze ring shank nails wherever needed. No drilling, no problem.
> > > Don't make it more complicated. However, my lead was probably softer -
> > > slabs that were likely salvaged from and x-ray booth.
> > >
> > > Joe T
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with
> > > plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead
> > > between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is
> > > that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that
> > > I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used
> > > some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead
> > > they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a
> > > couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal
> > > being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly
> > > appreciated.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
I have a pointy skiff that is 25 years old now. I used luan underlayment for the sides and every spring I find the delaminated areas, peal them apart, let it dry, sand and apply glass and filler as needed. I can't believe it, but the boat still floats. This of course only works on thin sheets of 1/4" where there are only 3 layers. It is amazing how far you can go with this technique. I use epoxy and glass, not polyester as that would be subject to peel.



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> Inside the fir planking and the end decks of my Windsprint are
> checked pretty badly. Replacing the decks is a small job. Replacing
> the planks means might as well through it all away, of course.
>
> I've read that warmed up 3m 5200 trowlled on could help. That's
> pretty expensive, and perhaps a hideously gooey messy job, but a
> cheaper polyurethane like PL would be worth a try if any came in
> pails rather than the tubes.
>
> Are the grain fillers used in new work up to this job? One doubts it,
> but would love to be wrong.
>
> It's too far gone for a thick, expensive glass job now. A light
> fabric stuck down with paint won't hide these cracks.
>
> So, what's a boy to do?
> Mark
>
I'd like to thank all of you for your experienced responses. Some things I had thought about already, but some I hadn't! I will think well before taking either way. Fortunately I have plenty of time before getting to the keel cast!
Ste

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefano" <gordas@...> wrote:
>
> I'm going to build an Old Shoe myself
I disagree, I rolled my Old Shoe with a rolling frame and several hands. Went easy. Check it out on my website:http://www.solopublications.com/saillanc.html

Regards,

Dennis
Bellingham, WA

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gene T." <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:
>
> Stefano,
> You might want to think twice about turning the boat back over with
> that 200 pound keel on it. It might right itself to quickly or it
> might stress the structure. Also, smaller spheres is not the way to
> get a denser mix, you need to mix sizes so the small ones fill in the
> gaps between the larger ones. I'm sure there is an optimum formula
> but it's nothing you could follow in practice, just try for some
> improvement in density by mixing sizes.
>
> Sincerely,
> Gene T.
>
> On 15 Apr, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Stefano wrote:
>
> > I'm going to build an Old Shoe myself and have been wondering how to
> > make the keel lead casting. This is what I came up with stealing it
> > from other designs. Using small lead spheres from hunting guns, or
> > fishing weights, layering them in liquid resin (epoxy or other)
> > directly in place: boat upside-down and cast slot framed fore-and-
> > aft and with keel cheeks in place. All screws or nails would be
> > already in place through plywood cheeks. The smallest the spheres,
> > the closest the real weight to the designed one. (The cast slot
> > could be extended fore and aft to get the same weight keeping the
> > same COG).
> > Do you think that would do?
> >
> > Ste
> >
>
lead drilling: yes, knocking the edge off the bit will work on lead. But, by far the easiest way to drill lead in my experience is a forstner bit. I had to prep a giant chunk of lead (47 foot boat) for keel bolts, including large side access holes for the bottom nuts, and after a learning curve (nobody knew nothin') discovered that a forstner bit pretty much works in lead the same as it works in wood, only slower. No clogging, minimal jamming (use WD40 liberally), doesn't even hurt the bit. Not much use for the tinier holes (I don't think forstners come in less than maybe 1/4"?)



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
>
> I agree with Joe. Dou't use screws ,use ring nails. I am a machinist so
> have drilled a lot of holes. The problem is not that the lead is hard,
> but that it is that it is soft. It is so soft that the twist in the
> drill shape causes it to suck in bind up and break. Lead and copper
> both soft have the same problem where drilling is concerned. Steel is
> many times harder than any kind of lead. In it is fairly easy to drill.
> IF there is any other way you just do not drill lead. It can be drilled
> but you have to resharpen the drill point in a certain kind of way. It's
> called dubbing the drill point but you have to know what you are doing.
> I suggest not drilling lead. Doug
>
>
> On 04/15/2011 04:01 AM, Joe T wrote:
> >
> > What's with drilling holes? On my Oldshoe keel I just hammered in
> > bronze ring shank nails wherever needed. No drilling, no problem.
> > Don't make it more complicated. However, my lead was probably softer -
> > slabs that were likely salvaged from and x-ray booth.
> >
> > Joe T
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with
> > plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead
> > between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is
> > that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that
> > I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used
> > some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead
> > they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a
> > couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal
> > being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> > >
> >
> >
>
3m 6000 half-face respirator and P100 filters is $25 on the net.
Just saying,
John Boy
 

Live your dreams...





From:Joe T <scsbmsjoe@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Sat, April 16, 2011 3:19:22 AM
Subject:[bolger] Re: More Micro keel questions

 

Lead fumes are a deadly serious hazard. Minimum precaution would be to work outside and stay upwind at all times. Skin contact should also be avoided. If you handle it wash thoroughly before touching anything that goes in your mouth.

I poured mine flat in a wood mold using a metal can similar to Rick Bedard's setup. Be sure it is well supported and level.

Joe T

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
>
> The last time I melted lead I set 3 bricks on edge to form a fire box
> leaving the front open I dump charcoal in it and got it going. After the
> charcoal was burning well I set an old Cast iron pot on the bricks and
> put automotive wheel weights. As the lead melted I drug out the metal
> clips that were in the weights out and ladled up the lead and poured it
> into the mould. When I finished I took my dremel grinder and printed
> lead on the side and in the bottom using a little grinding wheel. Just
> so no one would ever use it to cook in. It is a very simple thing to do
> and it doesn't take a lot of heat to do it. I think about 450 deg.
> ?? Doug
>

I used bronze ring nails on the Micro I built, but needed to pre-drill the holes as the lead was poured in a foundry. The foundry added antimony to make the lead slug more stable and not as bendy. If I were to do it again, I would probably have them forgo the antimony as the plywood and keel framing structure provides the stability. I do remember breaking a few drill bits until I lubed the drill with a little lanolin.

David Jost
Inside the fir planking and the end decks of my Windsprint are
checked pretty badly. Replacing the decks is a small job. Replacing
the planks means might as well through it all away, of course.

I've read that warmed up 3m 5200 trowlled on could help. That's
pretty expensive, and perhaps a hideously gooey messy job, but a
cheaper polyurethane like PL would be worth a try if any came in
pails rather than the tubes.

Are the grain fillers used in new work up to this job? One doubts it,
but would love to be wrong.

It's too far gone for a thick, expensive glass job now. A light
fabric stuck down with paint won't hide these cracks.

So, what's a boy to do?
Mark
Lead fumes are a deadly serious hazard. Minimum precaution would be to work outside and stay upwind at all times. Skin contact should also be avoided. If you handle it wash thoroughly before touching anything that goes in your mouth.

I poured mine flat in a wood mold using a metal can similar to Rick Bedard's setup. Be sure it is well supported and level.

Joe T


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
>
> The last time I melted lead I set 3 bricks on edge to form a fire box
> leaving the front open I dump charcoal in it and got it going. After the
> charcoal was burning well I set an old Cast iron pot on the bricks and
> put automotive wheel weights. As the lead melted I drug out the metal
> clips that were in the weights out and ladled up the lead and poured it
> into the mould. When I finished I took my dremel grinder and printed
> lead on the side and in the bottom using a little grinding wheel. Just
> so no one would ever use it to cook in. It is a very simple thing to do
> and it doesn't take a lot of heat to do it. I think about 450 deg.
> ?? Doug
>
If pouring it in upside down I would be concerned that the sides might bulge from the weight. Clamping stiff boards on the sides would prevent bulging the relatively thin ply.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefano" <gordas@...> wrote:
>
> I'm going to build an Old Shoe myself and have been wondering how to make the keel lead casting. This is what I came up with stealing it from other designs. Using small lead spheres from hunting guns, or fishing weights, layering them in liquid resin (epoxy or other) directly in place: boat upside-down and cast slot framed fore-and-aft and with keel cheeks in place. All screws or nails would be already in place through plywood cheeks. The smallest the spheres, the closest the real weight to the designed one. (The cast slot could be extended fore and aft to get the same weight keeping the same COG).
> Do you think that would do?
>
> Ste
>
A tiny cup of diesel fuel and dip a standard drill bit into it, drill a small depth, retract bit to clear chips, dip in diesel, repeat.....
I've read kerosene or antifreeze works just as well if that's what you have on hand. You only need a small amount... amazing what a little lubrication will do.

Some lead has a few percent of antimony added to it to make it harder, and you can tell the difference but you can still drill it...

Rick


From:dir_cobb <dir_cobb@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Fri, April 15, 2011 7:38:25 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: More Micro keel questions

I couldn't get bronze boat nails in Chile, and broke more bits than I care think of on the first 20 holes for Oldshoes keel.

My final solution was hammering standard 1 1/4" stainless steel screws into the lead straight through the plywood side panel. It worked a treat and was fast.

I believe the problem is less about the lead being hard and more about it binding to the drill bit.

Perhaps dead slow drill speed is the solution if you are going the hard way.

David

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@...> wrote:
>
> Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>




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I use old cans. Got them from the dumpster behind the local school kitchen. They had contained fruit or vegetables and were about a gallon size. Same heating set-up as Doug described except I added forced air from an electric leaf blower on a low setting from a few feet away as someone else here suggested. The can I crimped a V shape into one side of the top for a pouring spout and on the opposite side I bolted it to the middle of a 4' long 2x4 to make a two person pouring handle. The can with "handle" was top heavy when empty, but perfect when loaded with lead. Maybe 6 charcoal briquettes and ten minutes of forced air and the lead was liquid. With the handle sticking out two feet from each side of the can each person was well clear of the hot lead during the lift and pour. Very simple and straightforward, you can practice team pouring with water, then dry the can and fill with scrap lead to see how heavy it really will be. Light the fire and in a few minutes you are done. Just make sure the mold is dry.... And crush and dispose of the can when done.

Rick


From:Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Fri, April 15, 2011 5:35:03 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: More Micro keel questions

The last time I melted lead I set 3 bricks on edge to form a fire box
leaving the front open I dump charcoal in it and got it going. After the
charcoal was burning well I set an old Cast iron pot on the bricks and
put automotive wheel weights. As the lead melted I drug out the metal
clips that were in the weights out and ladled up the lead and poured it
into the mould. When I finished I took my dremel grinder and printed
lead on the side and in the bottom using a little grinding wheel. Just
so no one would ever use it to cook in.  It is a very simple thing to do
and it doesn't take a lot of heat to do it.  I think about 450 deg.
??                                              Doug


  On 04/15/2011 06:45 PM, BruceHallman wrote:
>> ... cubic close packing (or face centred
cubic) — ABCABC… alternance — and hexagonal close packing — ABAB… alternance. But all combinations are possible (ABAC, ABCBA, ABCBAC, etc.). In all of these arrangements each sphere is surrounded by 12 other spheres, and both arrangements have an average density = (almost) .74048.
>>
>> (snipped)
> 0.74 versus a density of 1.0 with melted lead.
>
> Melting lead is pretty easy, try it and see.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
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> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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I couldn't get bronze boat nails in Chile, and broke more bits than I care think of on the first 20 holes for Oldshoes keel.

My final solution was hammering standard 1 1/4" stainless steel screws into the lead straight through the plywood side panel. It worked a treat and was fast.

I believe the problem is less about the lead being hard and more about it binding to the drill bit.

Perhaps dead slow drill speed is the solution if you are going the hard way.

David

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@...> wrote:
>
> Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>
The last time I melted lead I set 3 bricks on edge to form a fire box
leaving the front open I dump charcoal in it and got it going. After the
charcoal was burning well I set an old Cast iron pot on the bricks and
put automotive wheel weights. As the lead melted I drug out the metal
clips that were in the weights out and ladled up the lead and poured it
into the mould. When I finished I took my dremel grinder and printed
lead on the side and in the bottom using a little grinding wheel. Just
so no one would ever use it to cook in. It is a very simple thing to do
and it doesn't take a lot of heat to do it. I think about 450 deg.
?? Doug


On 04/15/2011 06:45 PM, BruceHallman wrote:
>> ... cubic close packing (or face centred cubic) — ABCABC… alternance — and hexagonal close packing — ABAB… alternance. But all combinations are possible (ABAC, ABCBA, ABCBAC, etc.). In all of these arrangements each sphere is surrounded by 12 other spheres, and both arrangements have an average density = (almost) .74048.
>>
>> (snipped)
> 0.74 versus a density of 1.0 with melted lead.
>
> Melting lead is pretty easy, try it and see.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
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> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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I recently built a Storm 17 (English kit from Swallow Boats) and the instructions called for filling a void in the centerboard with lead flashings. I couldn’t find any so I made a mixture of birdshot and epoxy to fill the void. It worked fine except for a couple of loose shot which sometimes rattle… As I recall, Old Shoe has quite a lot of lead and that much bird shot might be prohibitively expensive.

 

JohnT

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf OfDouglas Pollard
Sent:Friday, April 15, 2011 6:44 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: More Micro keel questions

 

 

Your epoxy will keep the pellets from pushing outward as they would if just dumped in the keel without the epoxy.  Don't forget when you calculate the length of the keel to compensate for the lead not being solid you have to deduct the amount of water the keel is displacing at 8 lbs to the gallon of water. Should work fine.  Just put in a little epoxy at a time as it will overheat and may catch on fire. Go very slow with that and watch the heat build up.  Doug

On 04/15/2011 04:10 PM, Stefano wrote:

 

I'm going to build an Old Shoe myself and have been wondering how to make the keel lead casting. This is what I came up with stealing it from other designs. Using small lead spheres from hunting guns, or fishing weights, layering them in liquid resin (epoxy or other) directly in place: boat upside-down and cast slot framed fore-and-aft and with keel cheeks in place. All screws or nails would be already in place through plywood cheeks. The smallest the spheres, the closest the real weight to the designed one. (The cast slot could be extended fore and aft to get the same weight keeping the same COG).
Do you think that would do?

Ste

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill"<rod_cahill@...>wrote:
>
> Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>

 

>... cubic close packing (or face centred cubic) — ABCABC… alternance — and hexagonal close packing — ABAB… alternance. But all combinations are possible (ABAC, ABCBA, ABCBAC, etc.). In all of these arrangements each sphere is surrounded by 12 other spheres, and both arrangements have an average density = (almost) .74048.
>
> (snipped)

0.74 versus a density of 1.0 with melted lead.

Melting lead is pretty easy, try it and see.
Your epoxy will keep the pellets from pushing outward as they would if just dumped in the keel without the epoxy.  Don't forget when you calculate the length of the keel to compensate for the lead not being solid you have to deduct the amount of water the keel is displacing at 8 lbs to the gallon of water. Should work fine.  Just put in a little epoxy at a time as it will overheat and may catch on fire. Go very slow with that and watch the heat build up.  Doug

On 04/15/2011 04:10 PM, Stefano wrote:
 

I'm going to build an Old Shoe myself and have been wondering how to make the keel lead casting. This is what I came up with stealing it from other designs. Using small lead spheres from hunting guns, or fishing weights, layering them in liquid resin (epoxy or other) directly in place: boat upside-down and cast slot framed fore-and-aft and with keel cheeks in place. All screws or nails would be already in place through plywood cheeks. The smallest the spheres, the closest the real weight to the designed one. (The cast slot could be extended fore and aft to get the same weight keeping the same COG).
Do you think that would do?

Ste

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill"<rod_cahill@...>wrote:
>
> Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>


...fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_packing:
 
"The two most common arrangements are called cubic close packing (or face centred cubic) — ABCABC… alternance — and hexagonal close packing — ABAB… alternance. But all combinations are possible (ABAC, ABCBA, ABCBAC, etc.). In all of these arrangements each sphere is surrounded by 12 other spheres, and both arrangements have an average density = (almost) .74048.
 
(snipped)
 
"When spheres are randomly added to a container and then compressed, they will generally form what is known as an "irregular" or "jammed" packing configuration when they can be compressed no more. This irregular packing will generally have a density of about 64%. Recent research predicts analytically that it cannot exceed a density limit of 63.4%."
 
(my comment added) These numbers hold true regardless of the size of the spheres.
 
-Bill

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfStefano
Sent:Friday, April 15, 2011 4:10 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Re: More Micro keel questions

 

I'm going to build an Old Shoe myself and have been wondering how to make the keel lead casting. This is what I came up with stealing it from other designs. Using small lead spheres from hunting guns, or fishing weights, layering them in liquid resin (epoxy or other) directly in place: boat upside-down and cast slot framed fore-and-aft and with keel cheeks in place. All screws or nails would be already in place through plywood cheeks. The smallest the spheres, the closest the real weight to the designed one. (The cast slot could be extended fore and aft to get the same weight keeping the same COG).
Do you think that would do?

Ste

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@...> wrote:

>
> Plan A with the template wasn't
too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>

Stefano,
You might want to think twice about turning the boat back over with that 200 pound keel on it.  It might right itself to quickly or it might stress the structure.  Also, smaller spheres  is not the way to get a denser mix, you need to mix sizes so the small ones fill in the gaps between the larger ones.  I'm sure there is an optimum formula but it's nothing you could follow in practice, just try for some improvement in density by mixing sizes.

Sincerely,
Gene T.

On 15 Apr, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Stefano wrote:

I'm going to build an Old Shoe myself and have been wondering how to make the keel lead casting. This is what I came up with stealing it from other designs. Using small lead spheres from hunting guns, or fishing weights, layering them in liquid resin (epoxy or other) directly in place: boat upside-down and cast slot framed fore-and-aft and with keel cheeks in place. All screws or nails would be already in place through plywood cheeks. The smallest the spheres, the closest the real weight to the designed one. (The cast slot could be extended fore and aft to get the same weight keeping the same COG).
Do you think that would do?

Ste


I'm going to build an Old Shoe myself and have been wondering how to make the keel lead casting. This is what I came up with stealing it from other designs. Using small lead spheres from hunting guns, or fishing weights, layering them in liquid resin (epoxy or other) directly in place: boat upside-down and cast slot framed fore-and-aft and with keel cheeks in place. All screws or nails would be already in place through plywood cheeks. The smallest the spheres, the closest the real weight to the designed one. (The cast slot could be extended fore and aft to get the same weight keeping the same COG).
Do you think that would do?

Ste


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@...> wrote:
>
> Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>

The bronze ring shanks went right in for me too. If your lead alloy is too hard for that you might try the steel ringshanks, sold as colored finishing nails. When I put in my keel I needed to nail it up tight before the epoxy went off.

 

MylesJ

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:01 AM, Joe T <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> What's with drilling holes? On my Oldshoe keel I just hammered in bronze ring shank nails wherever needed. No drilling, no problem. Don't make it more complicated. However, my lead was probably softer - slabs that were likely salvaged from and x-ray booth.
>
> Joe T


I used galvanized stubby hanger nails. The Simpson N8 nails are much
tougher than bronze. (I bet you could drive them into concrete!)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WI67SY
All I can say is what I had to do. I tried driving bronze ring nails in to the lead of my Oldshoe and kept bending them, so I went to plan "B" and pre-drilled 200 holes with normal carbide tip drill... took it slow and easy, no lube... the drilling ruined the drill .. but all my ring nails hammered in just fine. I did not drill in more than 1/4" past the ply. I'd do the nails for sure, I feel much more comfortable that they are there. My lead is encased in epoxy and 6oz fiberglass cloth... that lead is going nowhere. Just my 2 cents worth. Oh, when you are tapping (hammering) the ring nails, do it slow and easy, don't just wale on it.. easy taps, take your time. Nuther 2 cents. (Hi Joe!)

Regards,

Dennis
Bellingham, WA

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
>
> I agree with Joe. Dou't use screws ,use ring nails. I am a machinist so
> have drilled a lot of holes. The problem is not that the lead is hard,
> but that it is that it is soft. It is so soft that the twist in the
> drill shape causes it to suck in bind up and break. Lead and copper
> both soft have the same problem where drilling is concerned. Steel is
> many times harder than any kind of lead. In it is fairly easy to drill.
> IF there is any other way you just do not drill lead. It can be drilled
> but you have to resharpen the drill point in a certain kind of way. It's
> called dubbing the drill point but you have to know what you are doing.
> I suggest not drilling lead. Doug
>
>
> On 04/15/2011 04:01 AM, Joe T wrote:
> >
> > What's with drilling holes? On my Oldshoe keel I just hammered in
> > bronze ring shank nails wherever needed. No drilling, no problem.
> > Don't make it more complicated. However, my lead was probably softer -
> > slabs that were likely salvaged from and x-ray booth.
> >
> > Joe T
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with
> > plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead
> > between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is
> > that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that
> > I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used
> > some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead
> > they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a
> > couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal
> > being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> > >
> >
> >
>
I agree with Joe. Dou't use screws ,use ring nails.  I am a machinist so have drilled a lot of holes. The problem is not that the lead is hard, but that it is that it is soft. It is so soft that the twist in the drill shape causes it to suck in bind up and break.  Lead and copper both soft have the same problem where drilling is concerned. Steel is many times harder than any kind of lead. In it is fairly easy to drill.  IF there is any other way you just do not drill lead. It can be drilled but you have to resharpen the drill point in a certain kind of way. It's called dubbing the drill point but you have to know what you are doing.  I suggest not drilling lead.                              Doug


On 04/15/2011 04:01 AM, Joe T wrote:
 

What's with drilling holes? On my Oldshoe keel I just hammered in bronze ring shank nails wherever needed. No drilling, no problem. Don't make it more complicated. However, my lead was probably softer - slabs that were likely salvaged from and x-ray booth.

Joe T

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill"<rod_cahill@...>wrote:
>
> Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>


Use diesel for the lube and cobalt drill bits.
John Boy
 

Live your dreams...





From:rod_cahill <rod_cahill@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Fri, April 15, 2011 12:29:12 AM
Subject:[bolger] More Micro keel questions

 

Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.

What's with drilling holes? On my Oldshoe keel I just hammered in bronze ring shank nails wherever needed. No drilling, no problem. Don't make it more complicated. However, my lead was probably softer - slabs that were likely salvaged from and x-ray booth.

Joe T

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rod_cahill" <rod_cahill@...> wrote:
>
> Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.
>
Plan A with the template wasn't too successful so I am going with plan B and have epoxied the ingots in place and melted some lead between the ingots. Seems to have worked pretty well. Problem now is that I am drilling holes for the SS screws and out of the 3 holes that I have drilled, with the utmost care, all 3 have broken. I have used some WD40 light oil lubricant but as soon as the bit touched the lead they broke. It is going to be an expensive exercise if I am to drill a couple of hundred holes! I am told that the lead is harder than normal being from a printers. Any suitable solutions would be greatly appreciated.