Re: Trailering Micro
I would go for the tabernacle if I did it again. It was a fun boat.
David Jost
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
>
> My main problem trailering Micro is getting the mast up and down. I need to
> change it to a tabernacle if I keep it.
>
>
>
> MylesJ
>
>Btw in the 600 - <>1000# range, another 200 seems to make the
>
> Adding 200 pounds is not a lot
>
difference between too small and just large enough.
Because a trailer tows best when the trailer wheels are far back on the trailer, a long tongued trailer tows better than a short tongue trailer.
I concur with what others have said about towing. Use your own best judgement based upon your needs. Replacing a transmission with a used transmission is cheaper by far than buying and maintaining a special tow vehicle, and likely cheaper than replacing the present vehicle with a better tow vehicle. You can do a cost benefit analysis.
Eric
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "thedumbox2" <thedumbox@...> wrote:
>
> I'd be keen to hear Micro owners thoughts on trailering Micro. I can't imagine that it would be any more difficult than trailering a Compac 16. What are your experiences? Thanks, Dennis
>
Mark,
The towing capacity of a car is determined by a number of factors:
- engine/gearbox capacity, the total amount of power required to maintain speed and the low down gearing to get started.
- the strength of the chassis and tow bar. At least some cars have two OE tow bar packages, light duty and heavy duty. The main difference being the number of attachment points and the strength of the bar.
- suspension capacity (this is where the level riders come in - they help distribute weight to the front suspension of the car)
- the capacity of the car's braking system
- the cars weight.
Of these the last two are your limitation.
If your tow load is too heavy for the brakes they will overheat and become ineffective. Driving style comes into this - drive slower and the brakes don't have to work so hard. Toyota would no doubt be concerned that allowing drivers to increase towing loads would increase accidents caused by brake fade and this will be one reason for limiting towing capacity.
The weight of the car itself determines the amount of friction the tyres have on the road and hence the maximum pulling or stopping force. Wet roads, snow etc. reduce this maximum force. If the trailer is pushing the car down a hill and the car cannot provide enough stopping force a jackknife will result. Trailer brakes reduce the need for a heavy tow vehicle.
You see a lot of regulations link towing capacity to vehicle weight only. The logic is that the vehicle weight in most vehicles will be related to braking capacity, engine capacity, gearbox capacity and chassis strength.
Adding 200 pounds is not a lot even though the Yaris is fairly light. Adding weight to the car (tranferring gear from boat to your back seat for instance) will assist braking performance but you don't want to overload your suspension. Conservative driving when towing is always recommended.
Andrew
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone looked into enhancing the towing ability of a small car?
>
> My Yaris is said by the factory to be good for 7-800 pounds. I'm
> pretty sure its not the engine or even tranny that sets the limit,
> but the frame itself. Adding just a couple of hundred pounds would
> expand my choice of cruising boats.
>
> Do "load levelers" work in this way? Any other thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
The towing capacity of a car is determined by a number of factors:
- engine/gearbox capacity, the total amount of power required to maintain speed and the low down gearing to get started.
- the strength of the chassis and tow bar. At least some cars have two OE tow bar packages, light duty and heavy duty. The main difference being the number of attachment points and the strength of the bar.
- suspension capacity (this is where the level riders come in - they help distribute weight to the front suspension of the car)
- the capacity of the car's braking system
- the cars weight.
Of these the last two are your limitation.
If your tow load is too heavy for the brakes they will overheat and become ineffective. Driving style comes into this - drive slower and the brakes don't have to work so hard. Toyota would no doubt be concerned that allowing drivers to increase towing loads would increase accidents caused by brake fade and this will be one reason for limiting towing capacity.
The weight of the car itself determines the amount of friction the tyres have on the road and hence the maximum pulling or stopping force. Wet roads, snow etc. reduce this maximum force. If the trailer is pushing the car down a hill and the car cannot provide enough stopping force a jackknife will result. Trailer brakes reduce the need for a heavy tow vehicle.
You see a lot of regulations link towing capacity to vehicle weight only. The logic is that the vehicle weight in most vehicles will be related to braking capacity, engine capacity, gearbox capacity and chassis strength.
Adding 200 pounds is not a lot even though the Yaris is fairly light. Adding weight to the car (tranferring gear from boat to your back seat for instance) will assist braking performance but you don't want to overload your suspension. Conservative driving when towing is always recommended.
Andrew
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone looked into enhancing the towing ability of a small car?
>
> My Yaris is said by the factory to be good for 7-800 pounds. I'm
> pretty sure its not the engine or even tranny that sets the limit,
> but the frame itself. Adding just a couple of hundred pounds would
> expand my choice of cruising boats.
>
> Do "load levelers" work in this way? Any other thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
Mark,
Yes. When I was much younger, a little dumber, and rather desperate, I removed the rear bumper from my 1981 Toyota Starlet, welded a class IV bumper hitch on the back, and pulled about 1,000 lbs (trailer and motorcycle) for 850 interstate miles. Fresh from the factory the Starlet was rated at a whooping 58 hp (that axle-twisting power was churned out by a 1.3 liter four). My tired, old Starlet probably had considerably fewer ponies by that point. But we made the trip safely and in decent shape. And about three years later I had to replace the transmission (5 speed stick). I suspect the trip shortened the life of the gear box, but we'll never know. But this question isn't about me, it's about you.
Can you tow 700 or 1,000 lbs with a Yaris? It depends on who's doing the towing. It also depends on what you're towing (trailer brakes?), and where (interstate in major city, or quiet backroads? Long distances or short? Hills? Traffic?). There's a thread on Yaris towing on the Yaris forum that's worth reading. I agree with some of the posters in the thread that frame twist isn't an issue while towing.
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13056
But like most things on the inter-web, people are polarized on the topic. I think they end up polarized b/c they consider the "who" and the "what" and the "where" and those in favor of towing envision a prudent and careful tower, and those against towing envision a drooling moron behind the wheel.
My advice? First, mind the transmission. If it's an automatic, you need a transmission cooler or towing will quickly cook the fluid. If it's a stick, just mind the shifts. Second, you can boost the rear coil springs with hard, rubber coil spring helpers. We called them "knuckle busters" when I was a kid. Just jack-up car, jam them between two coils, and drop the car. Third, I'd consider trailer brakes. But a small boat trailer (or a Harbor Freight special)won't have them, and a small trailer isn't set-up to accept brake hubs. Be careful.
Just my advice. You'll do what you want to.
Bill, in Texas
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone looked into enhancing the towing ability of a small car?
>
> My Yaris is said by the factory to be good for 7-800 pounds. I'm
> pretty sure its not the engine or even tranny that sets the limit,
> but the frame itself. Adding just a couple of hundred pounds would
> expand my choice of cruising boats.
>
> Do "load levelers" work in this way? Any other thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
Hey, that Micro being pulled by the Ranger is mine, and that was a 4 cylinder Ranger. After that I got a V-6 Dakota and now a basic Cherokee. It was a bit iffy with the little Ranger. Okay in the valley, 3rdgear up hills. From my experience I deduce that 150hp is what you need to tow a Micro with a weeks supplies up a long grade while maintaining highway speeds.
The trailer is a regular power boat type with the drop frames and long bunks. I had to build up the bunks to clear the trailer fenders and mounted centerline rollers that actually hold most of the weight, the center one hits the middle of the keel area. I can launch in most cases with the truck tires at the waterline. The main problem is retrieval alone. Windage makes it hard to keep the stern aligned without help. I put a winch strap around the base of the mast, pull it in until there is some weight on the trailer, re-align it and winch it up tight.
MylesJ
Yes. When I was much younger, a little dumber, and rather desperate, I removed the rear bumper from my 1981 Toyota Starlet, welded a class IV bumper hitch on the back, and pulled about 1,000 lbs (trailer and motorcycle) for 850 interstate miles. Fresh from the factory the Starlet was rated at a whooping 58 hp (that axle-twisting power was churned out by a 1.3 liter four). My tired, old Starlet probably had considerably fewer ponies by that point. But we made the trip safely and in decent shape. And about three years later I had to replace the transmission (5 speed stick). I suspect the trip shortened the life of the gear box, but we'll never know. But this question isn't about me, it's about you.
Can you tow 700 or 1,000 lbs with a Yaris? It depends on who's doing the towing. It also depends on what you're towing (trailer brakes?), and where (interstate in major city, or quiet backroads? Long distances or short? Hills? Traffic?). There's a thread on Yaris towing on the Yaris forum that's worth reading. I agree with some of the posters in the thread that frame twist isn't an issue while towing.
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13056
But like most things on the inter-web, people are polarized on the topic. I think they end up polarized b/c they consider the "who" and the "what" and the "where" and those in favor of towing envision a prudent and careful tower, and those against towing envision a drooling moron behind the wheel.
My advice? First, mind the transmission. If it's an automatic, you need a transmission cooler or towing will quickly cook the fluid. If it's a stick, just mind the shifts. Second, you can boost the rear coil springs with hard, rubber coil spring helpers. We called them "knuckle busters" when I was a kid. Just jack-up car, jam them between two coils, and drop the car. Third, I'd consider trailer brakes. But a small boat trailer (or a Harbor Freight special)won't have them, and a small trailer isn't set-up to accept brake hubs. Be careful.
Just my advice. You'll do what you want to.
Bill, in Texas
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone looked into enhancing the towing ability of a small car?
>
> My Yaris is said by the factory to be good for 7-800 pounds. I'm
> pretty sure its not the engine or even tranny that sets the limit,
> but the frame itself. Adding just a couple of hundred pounds would
> expand my choice of cruising boats.
>
> Do "load levelers" work in this way? Any other thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
Micro is very nice to travel with. The key is the trailer. Mine is a fairly long-tongued Long and I at first thought it oversized for the boat but came to appreciate it. Keys to the trailer, in turn, are the long tongue and the drop-axle, with the axle fastenedunderthe leaf springs: everything you can do to lower the boat.
Provide some means of guiding the ballast keel to the center of the trailer. Not the usual outboard guide posts, I’d think. I do it with a couple of low walls 2 or 3 feet long about midships when the boat is fully on. Once I get the keel started between these walls, it stays there and comes along on the centerline rollers. Sometimes I have found it easiest not to back the trailer in all the way at first, but just submerge these walls so that I can get the keel floating in between them, then coordinate backing the boat and winching it on in stages. With a trained driver, it’s one smooth operation; alone I have to get in and out of the car maybe twice.
Side to side support however you like. My trailer has carpeted boards aligned fore and aft each side, and I have them as high as they will go. With the boat fully on, they are still a little low, and I have added an inch or so of softwood boards to take up the slack. I am happy to have almost all the weight borne by the rollers under the keel.
To launch, I like to get the rig moving backwards at a certain speed and hit the brakes when I think my rear wheels are at the water’s edge. That usually sends the boat floating off by itself. It’s well to have a tilt trailer and have the tilt unlocked for both launch and retrieval.
I think launch and retrieval of a Micro with some rigs I have seen might be difficult. It really does need to be low on the trailer. Low low low, and the tongue long enough that the boat floats when your exhaust pipe starts sputtering.
My final prejudice is for an ordinary low automobile for trailering. We trailersailors donotneed SUVs—not for this size boat anyway. An old Mercedes wagon is the sweetest tow-car I can imagine, with hydraulic load-levelling and headlight-leveling, good mileage, good adhesion, etc., etc. But any newer than 2003, you may not be able to hook up trailer lights and possibly not get a sport utility hitch, either. ---Mason
My Yaris is said by the factory to be good for 7-800 pounds. I'm
pretty sure its not the engine or even tranny that sets the limit,
but the frame itself. Adding just a couple of hundred pounds would
expand my choice of cruising boats.
Do "load levelers" work in this way? Any other thoughts?
Thanks,
Mark
Thanks.
I think Myles has some pics of his trailer in one of the groups. There was a discussion about Micro trailers in the past two years here. I've considered building a dunkable trailer for Pug, but I suspect it would be pretty long to float her off the end of the trailer. I've watched some launch ramps for a while on the weekend, and you eventually see all sorts of mistakes and almost-disasters (truck in water, boat won't load onto trailer, tires spinning on slimy ramp). Watching just put the fear of ramps in me, so I just opted for the multi-purpose flat bed utility trailer. It works.
Sounds like you know what you're doing with boats and ramps. Lake Michigan. That rocks. Micro is a great boat too.
Bill, in Texas
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "thedumbox2" <thedumbox@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I've seen your vids of Pugnacious on both Lake Erie and in the North Channel; very nice. I live in Michigan and so would sail primarily on Lake Michigan. My question about trailering is really about launching and retrieving. The boat would be used as a daysailer primarily and an occasional camp cruiser for two.
>
> I bought plans for the boat over 10 years ago. It was going to be my first build. I opted for a Featherwind (Carnell modification) instead. Since then, I have built a Dobler 16, a Core Sound 15, and a 12 ft clinker design called IO, which is Tom Dunderdale's (Campion Sail and Design)interpretation of an H. Chapelle dinghy. I have more plans than I have time to build, but Micro is one of those boats that still intrigues me after all these years.
>
I've seen your vids of Pugnacious on both Lake Erie and in the North Channel; very nice. I live in Michigan and so would sail primarily on Lake Michigan. My question about trailering is really about launching and retrieving. The boat would be used as a daysailer primarily and an occasional camp cruiser for two.
I bought plans for the boat over 10 years ago. It was going to be my first build. I opted for a Featherwind (Carnell modification) instead. Since then, I have built a Dobler 16, a Core Sound 15, and a 12 ft clinker design called IO, which is Tom Dunderdale's (Campion Sail and Design)interpretation of an H. Chapelle dinghy. I have more plans than I have time to build, but Micro is one of those boats that still intrigues me after all these years.
My main problem trailering Micro is getting the mast up and down. I need to change it to a tabernacle if I keep it.
MylesJ
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----From:WilliamSent:Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:00 PMSubject:[bolger] Re: Trailering MicroDennis,
What specifically do you want to know? Launching/retrieval, weight, tow vehicles, trailer design...?
I tow my Long Micro on a 16 foot, flat-bed utility trailer, so I cannot trailer launch (I sling my LM into the water). I made six stanchions to hold the hull level on the trailer and use two ratcheting tie-downs to hold her level. Besides the weight of the boat and trailer (and your tow vehicle), draw-out how much the mast overhangs the back of the trailer. Micro doesn't have a tabernacle, so you can scootch the mast forward on the boat/trailer. But my eyeball says you might have some overhang off the back.
Somewhere on the Yahoo list (or the web) are copies of old "Common Sense Designs" newsletters (as .pdfs). There are pictures of Micros on trailers (I recall one hooked to a Ford Ranger mini-pickup. *groan*).
Bill, in Texas
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Connor, Patrick" <pconnor@...> wrote:
>
> Talk to Mason Smith, Adirondack Goodboat. He has trailered his
> extensively.
>
> Patrick A. Connor
> ________________________________
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of thedumbox2
> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:07 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Trailering Micro
>
>
>
>
> I'd be keen to hear Micro owners thoughts on trailering Micro. I can't
> imagine that it would be any more difficult than trailering a Compac 16.
> What are your experiences? Thanks, Dennis
>
What specifically do you want to know? Launching/retrieval, weight, tow vehicles, trailer design...?
I tow my Long Micro on a 16 foot, flat-bed utility trailer, so I cannot trailer launch (I sling my LM into the water). I made six stanchions to hold the hull level on the trailer and use two ratcheting tie-downs to hold her level. Besides the weight of the boat and trailer (and your tow vehicle), draw-out how much the mast overhangs the back of the trailer. Micro doesn't have a tabernacle, so you can scootch the mast forward on the boat/trailer. But my eyeball says you might have some overhang off the back.
Somewhere on the Yahoo list (or the web) are copies of old "Common Sense Designs" newsletters (as .pdfs). There are pictures of Micros on trailers (I recall one hooked to a Ford Ranger mini-pickup. *groan*).
Bill, in Texas
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Connor, Patrick" <pconnor@...> wrote:
>
> Talk to Mason Smith, Adirondack Goodboat. He has trailered his
> extensively.
>
> Patrick A. Connor
> ________________________________
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of thedumbox2
> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:07 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Trailering Micro
>
>
>
>
> I'd be keen to hear Micro owners thoughts on trailering Micro. I can't
> imagine that it would be any more difficult than trailering a Compac 16.
> What are your experiences? Thanks, Dennis
>
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofthedumbox2
Sent:Monday, May 09, 2011 7:07 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Trailering Micro
I'd be keen to hear Micro owners thoughts on trailering Micro. I can't
imagine that it would be any more difficult than trailering a Compac 16. What
are your experiences? Thanks, Dennis