Re: [bolger] Insurance for Homebuilt Boats

USAA covers my classic plastic for liability out of my homeowners insurance (Pearson Triton).

HJ

On 7/14/2011 7:22 PM, Bill Howard wrote:
I was turned down flat by USAA when I applied.

Homebuilts are difficult to cover.

Bill Howard
Nellysford VA
On Jul 13, 2011, at 3:44 PM, paull01 wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone else has had a hard time getting insurance for their homebuilt boat. I applied to BoatUs and was given a good quote of about 200 bucks a year, but then they turned me down. The boat is a Jessie Cooper. I've found a cheap spot to keep her, but I've got to have at least liability insurance. Any thoughts?

Paul
Seattle


There appears to be some confusion in this area.

 

A boat owner has at least three exposures to loss.

 

First, there is the exposure to loss of or damage to the owner’s boat.

 

Second, there is the possibility that negligence on the part of the owner/operator will cause injury or damage to someone else.

 

Third, there is the possibility that the owner will suffer injury or death while operating the boat.

 

Generally speaking, vessels of less than 26 ft in length or vessels used on inland waters are not subject to maritime law, the Jones Act, or the Longshoreman and Harbor Workers Act.

 

Probably the most comprehensive insurance coverage is a ”Yacht Owners” policy which covers damage to the boat (“hull insurance”) and liability (“P&I” or protection and indemnity). Normally, the insurance company will require a satisfactory survey before issuing such a policy and they do not look favorably on owner built boats.

 

Many of our homebuilt boats have minimal value and are intended to get us on the water as quickly and cheaply as possible. Most of us are content to assume the risk of damage (which we can repair) or even loss of these boats. However, we are not (or should not) risk our family assets on the possibility of a liability judgment against us. For those of us in this situation, a Homeowners policy will provide some level of liability insurance on small, low powered boats. Some policies provide a minimal level of property insurance ($1000 to $3000) on row boats, canoes and sailboats. It is relatively simple and inexpensive to increase the amount of liability insurance on a Homeowners policy up to $300,000. If you need more it is possible to purchase a second layer of liability insurance on top of your Homeowners insurance. This is called an “Umbrella” policy.

 

Because there are different statutes pertaining to liability in different states and because there is some variance in the policies issued by different companies, I strongly recommend that you sit down with your insurance agent to determine what coverage you need and what coverage is provided by any insurance policy. Although I have some insurance background, I would suggest that not everything you read on the internet (including this) should be taken as gospel…

 

JohnT

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf OfBruceHallman
Sent:Saturday, July 16, 2011 11:20 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Insurance for Homebuilt Boats

 

 

> ... that homeowners only covers up to $1,000 for a boat loss in Florida . (In most states it's $3,000, I've been told. I know that is what it was in Connecticut and Virginia when we lived there.)

>
> -- Will

The other big issue, I think, is that marinas require you to have
insurance against damage caused to other boats. I recall about five
years back an event in Lake Union , WA where someone's boat caught fire
in a marina and took out dozens of adjacent boats and marina
structure, the damage had to be in the millions of $$$. I know in my
own case my harbor master told me as much, that he didn't care about
risk to my boat, but rather was needing protection against damage I
might cause to others.

Boat insurance is a strange thing.  Way back when the Jones act was instituted they decided if ship owners faced unlimited liability the maritime fright industry could not prosper.  So the Jones act declared that the most a ship owner could be sued for was the value of his ship.
I rented out skiffs at one time with outboard motors on them.  The advice of lawyers was don't buy insurance as it is only admitting liability. Require the renter to except legal possession of the boat for the period of the rental.  Give him no lessons in it's use and supply no safety equipment. Have equipment on hand that he can rent. Since he is captain of the vessel he is supposed to know what he needs. Giving advice would make me  take on the responsibility.  If the boat killed somebody I would loose the boat and he as unlicenced captain would get sued.
I guess this means that if you are not aboard the boat you can't be sued for more than the value of the boat as owner as you are not captaining her.  I'm guessing here.
A tug about 10 years ago had a barge break loose from it and hit the Hampton Roads tunnel bridge. After a lengthy legal battle it was decided that the five hundred thousnad that the barge was rated at was all the State of virginia could get in damages.  The total damage was 11 million.
The marinas don't need to be too smug about you having a million dollars worth of insurance on a $5000 boat.
So if you buy insurance you are admitting liability and if you don't you have to hire a lawyer to defend the fact that you have no liability and that takes deep pockets.                                                                                       Doug




On 07/16/2011 11:19 AM, BruceHallman wrote:

> ... that homeowners only covers up to $1,000 for a boat loss in Florida. (In most states it's $3,000, I've been told. I know that is what it was in Connecticut and Virginia when we lived there.)
>
> -- Will

The other big issue, I think, is that marinas require you to have
insurance against damage caused to other boats. I recall about five
years back an event in Lake Union, WA where someone's boat caught fire
in a marina and took out dozens of adjacent boats and marina
structure, the damage had to be in the millions of $$$. I know in my
own case my harbor master told me as much, that he didn't care about
risk to my boat, but rather was needing protection against damage I
might cause to others.


> ... that homeowners only covers up to $1,000 for a boat loss in Florida. (In most states it's $3,000, I've been told. I know that is what it was in Connecticut and Virginia when we lived there.)
>
> -- Will

The other big issue, I think, is that marinas require you to have
insurance against damage caused to other boats. I recall about five
years back an event in Lake Union, WA where someone's boat caught fire
in a marina and took out dozens of adjacent boats and marina
structure, the damage had to be in the millions of $$$. I know in my
own case my harbor master told me as much, that he didn't care about
risk to my boat, but rather was needing protection against damage I
might cause to others.
Bill Howard --

I have homeowners and an umbrella policy with USAA. They told me I was covered for liability on the Folding Schooner I built, launched last year. However, I discovered when hurricane Charley hit in '04 and made off with the O'Day 23 I had moored in Charlotte Harbor that homeowners only covers up to $1,000 for a boat loss in Florida. (In most states it's $3,000, I've been told. I know that is what it was in Connecticut and Virginia when we lived there.)

-- Will

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Howard <billh39@...> wrote:
>
> I was turned down flat by USAA when I applied.
>
> Homebuilts are difficult to cover.
>
> Bill Howard
> Nellysford VA
> On Jul 13, 2011, at 3:44 PM, paull01 wrote:
>
> > I was wondering if anyone else has had a hard time getting insurance for their homebuilt boat. I applied to BoatUs and was given a good quote of about 200 bucks a year, but then they turned me down. The boat is a Jessie Cooper. I've found a cheap spot to keep her, but I've got to have at least liability insurance. Any thoughts?
> >
> > Paul
> > Seattle
> >
> >
>
I was turned down flat by USAA when I applied.

Homebuilts are difficult to cover.

Bill Howard
Nellysford VA
On Jul 13, 2011, at 3:44 PM, paull01 wrote:

 

I was wondering if anyone else has had a hard time getting insurance for their homebuilt boat. I applied to BoatUs and was given a good quote of about 200 bucks a year, but then they turned me down. The boat is a Jessie Cooper. I've found a cheap spot to keep her, but I've got to have at least liability insurance. Any thoughts?

Paul
Seattle


A few years ago I raised my home owners' liability coverage limit up to $500k. The higher you go, the less it costs to add each 100k of additional coverage, so its not expensive to do this.
 
The reasoning behind this was to give the insurance company something to fight for if a predatory person and lawyer ever decided they could distort the facts and sue me for a large amount of money. Being on a small fixed income and having spent my savings on heath problems, I couldn't afford a competent lawyer to defend myself in court in a case like this. So if the situation is borderline, and the upper limit of the policy is lower than the estimated costs of fighting it in court, then the insurance company might just write the case off, leaving me on my own to prevent a huge court judgment against me, which would be larger than the maximum the policy covered.
 
A lot less than 500k will buy a lot of lawyer time, so if a dubious liability suit was ever filed against me, then my insurance company would have a big incentive to win the case, or at least get the judgment lowered enough so the court costs and judgment against me would cost them considerably less than the upper limit of the policy.
 
So from my perspective, the difference in the annual cost between 100k and 500k of liability insurance, is a retainer that insures that some competent lawyers will make a real effort to protect me (and their company) from dubious or inflated liability suits.
 
There are enough amoral predatory people and lawyers out there, looking for problems that could be leveraged into a gold mine, that the 500k liability limit, and the peace of mind that comes with this, is well worth the extra premium.
 
I'm not sure what the ideal upper limit is for a liability policy because it changes based on the trends in the economy and what is currently considered acceptable in court. At the least it should clearly exceed your net worth. I am sure that a liability limit of 100k is too low in most case, even if your net worth is a negative number - good lawyers are now costing $200-$400 per hour and a messy case can easily cost a hundred hours of lawyer time. I picked 500k because it didn't cost much more than 300k, its a nice round number, and even at $500 per hour, that would buy a thousand hours of lawyer time to protect me from fraudulent liability suits :)
 
All this is based on the assumption that I will behave in a responsible manner and do a reasonable job of following standard practice on safety procedures, so there isn't any solid grounds for a valid 1,000k liability judgment against me.
 
Sincerely,
Roger
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "paull01" <paull01@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:46 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Insurance for Homebuilt Boats

>I just talked to my State Farm agent and she said she'll do a stand alone liability only policy for $51/year. Howzat for affordable. I guess the umbrella policy only works up to 25 feet length.  I could even save a buck and go from 300k to 100k coverage and just pay $50. But, I digress. But I do have to get her surveyed 1st. I think I can do that for about $350.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
> Seattle
>
I just talked to my State Farm agent and she said she'll do a stand alone liability only policy for $51/year. Howzat for affordable. I guess the umbrella policy only works up to 25 feet length. I could even save a buck and go from 300k to 100k coverage and just pay $50. But, I digress. But I do have to get her surveyed 1st. I think I can do that for about $350.

Cheers,
Paul
Seattle

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
>
> Same as JohnT says, talk to your agent. I had to add an umbrella policy to
> get coverage.
>
>
>
> MylesJ
>

Same as JohnT says, talk to your agent. I had to add an umbrella policy to get coverage.

 

MylesJ

Thanks for the heads up guys. We're in the process of buying a fixer home and homeowners insurance is probably the best way to go.

Paul
Seattle

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> If you have a homeowners policy, it generally provides automatic liability
> coverage for boats up to 26 feet in length and/or with less than 25 hp.
> Check with your agent to be sure. (better to find out before something
> happens than after). If you don't have a homeowners policy, you can (and
> probably should) buy a Comprehensive Personal Liability Policy (CPL) which
> will provide the same liability coverage as a Homeowners policy.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> BruceHallman
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 6:52 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Insurance for Homebuilt Boats
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:44 PM, paull01 <paull01@...
> <mailto:paull01%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone else has had a hard time getting insurance for
> their homebuilt boat. I applied to BoatUs and was given a good quote of
> about 200 bucks a year, but then they turned me down. The boat is a Jessie
> Cooper. I've found a cheap spot to keep her, but I've got to have at least
> liability insurance. Any thoughts?
> >
> > Paul
> > Seattle
> >
>
> I was able to get my boat to be included under my home owner's
> insurance policy, at no added cost. They issued a certificate which
> satisfied the marina.
>
I went to BoatUS on my Whalewatcher and encountered the same thing. They wanted a full survey, etc., on a professionally built new boat. That made no sense to me given the modest value of coverage I was asking for. I ended up going through my homeowner's agent and obtained a policy through State Farm that provides coverage for Great Lakes and Atlantic Seaboard, liability, etc. at a very reasonable cost.
 
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfBruceHallman
Sent:Wednesday, July 13, 2011 6:52 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Insurance for Homebuilt Boats

 

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:44 PM, paull01 <paull01@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> I was wondering if anyone else has had a
hard time getting insurance for their homebuilt boat. I applied to BoatUs and was given a good quote of about 200 bucks a year, but then they turned me down. The boat is a Jessie Cooper. I've found a cheap spot to keep her, but I've got to have at least liability insurance. Any thoughts?
>
> Paul
>
Seattle
>

I was able to get my boat to be included under my home owner's
insurance policy, at no added cost. They issued a certificate which
satisfied the marina.

If you have a homeowners policy, it generally provides automatic liability coverage for boats up to 26 feet in length and/or with less than 25 hp. Check with your agent to be sure. (better to find out before something happens than after). If you don’t have a homeowners policy, you can (and probably should) buy a Comprehensive Personal Liability Policy (CPL) which will provide the same liability coverage as a Homeowners policy.

 

JohnT

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf OfBruceHallman
Sent:Wednesday, July 13, 2011 6:52 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Insurance for Homebuilt Boats

 

 

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:44 PM, paull01 <paull01@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> I was wondering if anyone else has had a hard time getting insurance for
their homebuilt boat. I applied to BoatUs and was given a good quote of about 200 bucks a year, but then they turned me down. The boat is a Jessie Cooper. I've found a cheap spot to keep her, but I've got to have at least liability insurance. Any thoughts?
>
> Paul
> Seattle
>

I was able to get my boat to be included under my home owner's
insurance policy, at no added cost. They issued a certificate which
satisfied the marina.

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:44 PM, paull01 <paull01@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I was wondering if anyone else has had a hard time getting insurance for their homebuilt boat. I applied to BoatUs and was given a good quote of about 200 bucks a year, but then they turned me down. The boat is a Jessie Cooper. I've found a cheap spot to keep her, but I've got to have at least liability insurance. Any thoughts?
>
> Paul
> Seattle
>

I was able to get my boat to be included under my home owner's
insurance policy, at no added cost. They issued a certificate which
satisfied the marina.
I was wondering if anyone else has had a hard time getting insurance for their homebuilt boat. I applied to BoatUs and was given a good quote of about 200 bucks a year, but then they turned me down. The boat is a Jessie Cooper. I've found a cheap spot to keep her, but I've got to have at least liability insurance. Any thoughts?

Paul
Seattle