Re: Sailing Cartopper with 59 sq ft sprit boom rig
John,
I really appreciated your details on the movable snotter, sounds like just the thing. I see from your picture that you reef moving the sprit forward. Do you find that you get a lot of sprit on mast banging in that area? That was a problem with Micro. Bolger’s cure for that was putting the sprit through some kind of slide attached to the mast, but that fights with your approach of the movable snotter and the cross lacing.
For your floatation question try this. Look for a pool float, usually about 1 ½ inches thick with the finished/sealed surface (not open cell). It is thin enough to lay back on and provide some extra comfort. One of those floats supports over 200 pounds. For something smaller, some gardening kneelers are made this way as well. You need to use marine Velcro to keep them in the position you wanted, amidships just below the gunnel.
MylesJ
I have been wanting to test it for some time but finding the time...yea. The boat ramp near me is not really suitable. Horrid sticky deep black goo mud for a bottom and generally busy to boot.
However, I've had the pleasure of bailing these boats from full to the gunwales on several occasions and while it is tiring, it takes surprisingly little time with a five gallon bucket. The open boat arrangement allows you to tilt the boat so one gunwale is barely above the water so hardly any lifting is involved. Just start splashing!
I think the ideal arrangement from a flotation perspective would be air bags tacked to the interior midships at the gunwale. That's the low point when swamped. air bag port and starboard would keep the boat stable in roll. High transom and bow keep her stable in pitch. The drawback is the bags are in the way. Cartoppers are amazingly comfortable for a dinghy. Look at the pic of my buddy Tim sailing, leaned back on the side panel like sun tanning on the beach! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/3034245064/in/set-72157609176660131/). If the air bags were long, thin and deep it might work beautifully. But the air bags I've seen available are like stuffed sleeping bags, short squat and fat. And in the way.
John O'Neill
However, I've had the pleasure of bailing these boats from full to the gunwales on several occasions and while it is tiring, it takes surprisingly little time with a five gallon bucket. The open boat arrangement allows you to tilt the boat so one gunwale is barely above the water so hardly any lifting is involved. Just start splashing!
I think the ideal arrangement from a flotation perspective would be air bags tacked to the interior midships at the gunwale. That's the low point when swamped. air bag port and starboard would keep the boat stable in roll. High transom and bow keep her stable in pitch. The drawback is the bags are in the way. Cartoppers are amazingly comfortable for a dinghy. Look at the pic of my buddy Tim sailing, leaned back on the side panel like sun tanning on the beach! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/3034245064/in/set-72157609176660131/). If the air bags were long, thin and deep it might work beautifully. But the air bags I've seen available are like stuffed sleeping bags, short squat and fat. And in the way.
John O'Neill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Frank Raisin <pfrankr@...> wrote:
>
> Would love you to test it please!
>
> (I worry that with air bags , though it may float right side up, the sides will be too low , with too much water in the boat to bail it out ..... )
>
> Sorry, I don't have any good suggestions for a good scheme - hoping somebody will work it out cos the thought of swamping without rescue nearby makes me nervous.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Frank!
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
Would love you to test it please!
(I worry that with air bags , though it may float right side up, the sides will be too low , with too much water in the boat to bail it out ..... )
Sorry, I don't have any good suggestions for a good scheme - hoping somebody will work it out cos the thought of swamping without rescue nearby makes me nervous.
Best regards,
Frank!
Sent from my iPad
(I worry that with air bags , though it may float right side up, the sides will be too low , with too much water in the boat to bail it out ..... )
Sorry, I don't have any good suggestions for a good scheme - hoping somebody will work it out cos the thought of swamping without rescue nearby makes me nervous.
Best regards,
Frank!
Sent from my iPad
On 21/08/2011, at 9:32 AM, "John" <oneillparker@...> wrote:
> Yea, full disclosure! Early on I added flotation under the midships platform. Bad idea. With boat turtled the flotation worked to keep the boat upside down. Every time we got it upright, it just flipped itself over at the slightest inattention. The solution I have since come up with, but haven't tested, is a flotation bag tacked to the transom aft, and more flotation under the bow platform. Ballast low, flotation high, works to keep the boat level, and with the open end up!
>
> John
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>>
>> Great photos and the added commentary. The full disclosure photo caught
>> my attention.
>>
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/4161077574/in/set-721576091766\
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
John,
Thanks very much for your wonderful photos and commentary. Very much appreciated -- and informative!
-=Grant MacLaren=-
Thanks very much for your wonderful photos and commentary. Very much appreciated -- and informative!
-=Grant MacLaren=-
Guru huh! Thanks for that. Birdsmouth evangelist might be closer to the truth. I haven't made one in a few years but I'm a big believer in them. They take some forethought, to be sure, but with a little bit of patience they turn cheap wood into high quality sticks that anyone with a table saw can make.
My birdsmouth mast is a thing of beauty and it's held up very well indeed. Try it!
John O'Neill
My birdsmouth mast is a thing of beauty and it's held up very well indeed. Try it!
John O'Neill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
> John
>
> I have always thought of you as the Birdsmouth guru. Any thoughts after
> all theses years, how are they holding up.
>
> I still have your Boatbuilder article in case I ever want to build one.
>
> HJ
>
>
John
I have always thought of you as the Birdsmouth guru. Any thoughts after
all theses years, how are they holding up.
I still have your Boatbuilder article in case I ever want to build one.
HJ
I have always thought of you as the Birdsmouth guru. Any thoughts after
all theses years, how are they holding up.
I still have your Boatbuilder article in case I ever want to build one.
HJ
On 8/20/2011 1:09 PM, John wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> I've had a cartopper, actually a pair of them, for some time now. I eventually came up with a two-part snotter system. I've taken the boats out in some pretty extreme conditions, considering their size, in the SF bay delta and being able to 'spill the breeze' is a very good thing in tiddly cartopper. But I also like to get the most out of the boat! So...
>
> I installed an 'uphaul' snotter much higher on the mast than was shown on the plans, and a downhaul snotter led directly down to the deck. Both are led to turning blocks at the foot of the mast and back to jam cleats on the centerboard case port and starboard.
>
> The whole idea is to control the shape of the leech, which is what a boom vang does for a sail laced to the boom. If the wind comes on putting the sprit boom low on the mast allows the clew to lift and the leech to open, spilling some breeze. Normally you want the leech closed up, so raising the boom in relation to the mast accomplishes that, keeping the clew low.
>
> Additionally there is a 'bendy mast' function you can get with the system. When the wind is on but not extremely so, you can place high tension on the foot of the sail by raising the uphaul a bit and heaving on the downhaul. The clew stays low and the high outhaul tension bends the mast aft, taking some draft out of the sail. This helps to keep the boat upright, which is what you want for maximum rig efficiency. The side to side bend of the mast can mitigate this effect, but it still works.
>
> The two snotter system gives what amounts to a combined boomvang/outhaul control. Having maximum sail shape control allows for getting the most out of the drive system of the boat in all conditions you care to go out in!
>
> There are some pics of the boats on Flickr:http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/sets/72157609176660131/
>
> John O'Neill
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Yea, full disclosure! Early on I added flotation under the midships platform. Bad idea. With boat turtled the flotation worked to keep the boat upside down. Every time we got it upright, it just flipped itself over at the slightest inattention. The solution I have since come up with, but haven't tested, is a flotation bag tacked to the transom aft, and more flotation under the bow platform. Ballast low, flotation high, works to keep the boat level, and with the open end up!
John
John
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Great photos and the added commentary. The full disclosure photo caught
> my attention.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/4161077574/in/set-721576091766\
Great photos and the added commentary. The full disclosure photo caught
my attention.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/4161077574/in/set-721576091766\
60131
Nels
my attention.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/4161077574/in/set-721576091766\
60131
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John" <oneillparker@...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I've had a cartopper, actually a pair of them, for some time now. I
eventually came up with a two-part snotter system. I've taken the boats
out in some pretty extreme conditions, considering their size, in the SF
bay delta and being able to 'spill the breeze' is a very good thing in
tiddly cartopper. But I also like to get the most out of the boat! So...
>
> I installed an 'uphaul' snotter much higher on the mast than was shown
on the plans, and a downhaul snotter led directly down to the deck. Both
are led to turning blocks at the foot of the mast and back to jam cleats
on the centerboard case port and starboard.
>
> The whole idea is to control the shape of the leech, which is what a
boom vang does for a sail laced to the boom. If the wind comes on
putting the sprit boom low on the mast allows the clew to lift and the
leech to open, spilling some breeze. Normally you want the leech closed
up, so raising the boom in relation to the mast accomplishes that,
keeping the clew low.
>
> Additionally there is a 'bendy mast' function you can get with the
system. When the wind is on but not extremely so, you can place high
tension on the foot of the sail by raising the uphaul a bit and heaving
on the downhaul. The clew stays low and the high outhaul tension bends
the mast aft, taking some draft out of the sail. This helps to keep the
boat upright, which is what you want for maximum rig efficiency. The
side to side bend of the mast can mitigate this effect, but it still
works.
>
> The two snotter system gives what amounts to a combined
boomvang/outhaul control. Having maximum sail shape control allows for
getting the most out of the drive system of the boat in all conditions
you care to go out in!
>
> There are some pics of the boats on Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/sets/72157609176660131/
>
> John O'Neill
>
Hey guys,
I've had a cartopper, actually a pair of them, for some time now. I eventually came up with a two-part snotter system. I've taken the boats out in some pretty extreme conditions, considering their size, in the SF bay delta and being able to 'spill the breeze' is a very good thing in tiddly cartopper. But I also like to get the most out of the boat! So...
I installed an 'uphaul' snotter much higher on the mast than was shown on the plans, and a downhaul snotter led directly down to the deck. Both are led to turning blocks at the foot of the mast and back to jam cleats on the centerboard case port and starboard.
The whole idea is to control the shape of the leech, which is what a boom vang does for a sail laced to the boom. If the wind comes on putting the sprit boom low on the mast allows the clew to lift and the leech to open, spilling some breeze. Normally you want the leech closed up, so raising the boom in relation to the mast accomplishes that, keeping the clew low.
Additionally there is a 'bendy mast' function you can get with the system. When the wind is on but not extremely so, you can place high tension on the foot of the sail by raising the uphaul a bit and heaving on the downhaul. The clew stays low and the high outhaul tension bends the mast aft, taking some draft out of the sail. This helps to keep the boat upright, which is what you want for maximum rig efficiency. The side to side bend of the mast can mitigate this effect, but it still works.
The two snotter system gives what amounts to a combined boomvang/outhaul control. Having maximum sail shape control allows for getting the most out of the drive system of the boat in all conditions you care to go out in!
There are some pics of the boats on Flickr:http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/sets/72157609176660131/
John O'Neill
I've had a cartopper, actually a pair of them, for some time now. I eventually came up with a two-part snotter system. I've taken the boats out in some pretty extreme conditions, considering their size, in the SF bay delta and being able to 'spill the breeze' is a very good thing in tiddly cartopper. But I also like to get the most out of the boat! So...
I installed an 'uphaul' snotter much higher on the mast than was shown on the plans, and a downhaul snotter led directly down to the deck. Both are led to turning blocks at the foot of the mast and back to jam cleats on the centerboard case port and starboard.
The whole idea is to control the shape of the leech, which is what a boom vang does for a sail laced to the boom. If the wind comes on putting the sprit boom low on the mast allows the clew to lift and the leech to open, spilling some breeze. Normally you want the leech closed up, so raising the boom in relation to the mast accomplishes that, keeping the clew low.
Additionally there is a 'bendy mast' function you can get with the system. When the wind is on but not extremely so, you can place high tension on the foot of the sail by raising the uphaul a bit and heaving on the downhaul. The clew stays low and the high outhaul tension bends the mast aft, taking some draft out of the sail. This helps to keep the boat upright, which is what you want for maximum rig efficiency. The side to side bend of the mast can mitigate this effect, but it still works.
The two snotter system gives what amounts to a combined boomvang/outhaul control. Having maximum sail shape control allows for getting the most out of the drive system of the boat in all conditions you care to go out in!
There are some pics of the boats on Flickr:http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneillparker/sets/72157609176660131/
John O'Neill