Re: [bolger] Re: Epoxy over polyester?

In his book he did restore sailing yachts with it - his stories include one being indestructable until it got cut in half by a steamer off shore.

Different strokes for different folks, of course, but with equally valid assumptions one can come to an opposite conclusion.  Cold Moulding is a wonderful option but more of a mess and much harder to repair once rot sets up under or within the moulded layers.  I've seen that happen more often than i've seen properly Vaitsesed boats rot, but then i've seen more cold moulded boats than Vaitses boats.  Observer bias, value bias, etc. etc.  Let's all just get out there and build something.

Polyester peels horrible and in long flat sheets given time and water ingression between it and the wood underneath.  Ring nails can help a lot, but hull shape is also important.  Flat polyester sheething such as on a centerboard box will not stand.  Polyester lamination on a highly curved hull, especially one with tumblehome (such as ours) will hold up much better because on curing it does shrink ever so slightly.  On flat surfaces it will tend to pull free chemically even if it looks tight.  On the outside of curved surfaces (convex surfaces) it will tend to pull tighter to the surface as it contracts slightly.  Still, not nearly as good as epoxy but, as you and Dynamite and others have said, it is very often more than good enough.

I appreciate this discussion; these are all valid opinions.  However, having read Vaitses' book, assisted in applying it to an old fishing boat, seen it ride higher after relaunch, and still owning it 20 years later, one has to conclude that both views are correct.

John -
I agree with this 100%. My Diablo died a slow and painful death due to negligence as much as inferior AC ply. It was covered in dynel (nice stuff to work with, but a pain to fair) and set in epoxy. I just painted the interior with latex paint. A quick and dirty affair.

One day, in the middle of the lake I notice a ton of flexing in the floor while pounding across the pond at full throttle. Low and behold, the only thing between me and the deep blue sea was a 6 Oz layer of plastic reinforced fabric. Took the chain saw to it and gave it a viking funeral.

Current vessel is the Clam Skiff. Marine ply, epoxy and glass inside and out, painted with Kirby's. After two years of hard use, it looks brand spankin' new.

I think a real key here is to have a surface that cleans well as a high gloss oil paint will do. Dirt and mildew hold moisture the encourages rot. yes, rainwater is the culprit.

Happy boating.
David Jost

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> Wooden boats rot from the inside out. A fiberglass shell only keeps water
> away from the outside (if it is perfectly adhering to the planking, which
> is doubtful). Leaky decks kill more boats than leaky hulls, and rainwater
> is the killer, not seawater.
>
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:48:32 -0700, Doug wrote:
>
> > Yes drying out is the key to a lighter glass covered boat. That's also
> > why the boats no longer rot....
>
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> There is only one difference between a madman and me. The madman
> thinks he is sane. I know I am mad. (Salvador Dali)
>

Wooden boats rot from the inside out. A fiberglass shell only keeps water
away from the outside (if it is perfectly adhering to the planking, which
is doubtful). Leaky decks kill more boats than leaky hulls, and rainwater
is the killer, not seawater.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:48:32 -0700, Doug wrote:

> Yes drying out is the key to a lighter glass covered boat. That's also
> why the boats no longer rot....


--
John (jkohnen@...)
There is only one difference between a madman and me. The madman
thinks he is sane. I know I am mad. (Salvador Dali)

Vaitses's method was intended to get some more years of working out of
fishing boats and other workboats. I don't think I ever read of him
touting it for yachts.

A fellow I knew got ahold of a nice-looking British built double-ended
sailboat that had been cold-molded over. The work had been done in Port
Townsend, wooden boat capital of the west. That doesn't mean that
_everyone_ in Port Townsend knows what they're doing. <g> One day he cut
or drilled into the hull to mount something, and after he got through the
cold-molded outer shell he ran into -- compost! :o( From the outside the
boat looked great, from the inside it looked OK, in between was a layer of
very rotten wood, sandwiched between the cold-molded shell and a thin
layer of good wood on the inside of the planks. <sigh> He ground off the
cold-molded shell and discovered that just about every plank needed to be
replaced. He never got very far into the project before he lost heart, and
the boat was eventually broken up by the boatyard. If he'd never cut
through the outer shell maybe he'd have gone voyaging, and maybe the boat
would have brought him back. <shrug> After he knew that there wasn't much
of anything holding that outer shell to the rest of the boat he didn't
dare take her to sea.

The example many people give of a boat that was cold-molded over
successfully is a British cutter that spends most of its time around South
Georgia -- where it's _cold_ and the rot spores are probably in
hibernation. <g> I'd be very suspicious of any traditionally built wooden
boat that had been covered with glass, using polyester or epoxy, or had
been shelled with cold-molding.

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:27:44 -0700, dave wrote:

>
> The vaitses method always makes me cringe when I hear about it. I guess
> in the case of a boat with a really terminal hull, great interior and
> great rig.... it might,just might, pay to do that, but if you're going
> to build a new hull over the old one, why not cold mold? The part
> nobody's talking about is fairing the new polyester hull. That's a huge
> labor investment, unless you just don't care and decide to paint the raw
> polyester, in which case you've built yourself a totally unsaleable
> hulk. Either way, you've built yourself a totally unsaleable boat, so
> you better love it for the 15 or so years it'll last before that
> well-sheathed rot finishes its business; but if you fair it, at least
> it'll look like a boat.
> ...


--
John (jkohnen@...)
A fool and his money are soon elected. (Will Rogers)

Yes drying out is the key to a lighter glass covered boat. That's also why the boats no longer rot. Wood requires moister levels above 20 % to stop  rot or below about 8 % I think it is.   Without water in that range wood lasts indefinitely. Ventilation is the key and I would epoxy the whole boat with one coat before glassing to help seal the wood against condensation.  So you can't just glass the hull you have to glass all the topsides as well.  Every thing must be tightly sealed to eliminate rot.  If You have an old wooden boat or get one for nothing then glass it yourself. It likely can be done for a few thousand dollars. Wooden boats have great interiors with good hardware and there is nothing cheap or cheesy as in most glass boats that are affordable. If you get a wooden boat that is need of repair it will be cheap. At the most it will be worth the value of the hardware in used condition. The boat is worth nothing. You won't have much money in it so if its hard to sell so what. But why would anyone want to ever sell an Alden,crocker or Hershoff boat in good cruising condition anyway. Resale value is not a concideration. It is not replaceable.        Doug 

On 09/16/2011 01:01 AM, mkriley48 wrote:

 

the boats rode higher in the water because they were dried out.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"<jtrussell2@...>wrote:
>
> I once had to break up a fist fight between two little boys who were arguing
> about whether a Ferrari was faster than a Lamborghini. I mention this
> because I am not at all sure that I know what I'm talking about. As I
> recall, Vaitses put a very substantial fiberglass layup (cloth, mat, and
> more cloth) over an old sloop. He held everything together with ring nails
> driven through the layup (before application of resin) into the old hull. In
> doing so, he increased the thickness of the hull and if the new, 'fatter'
> hull displaced more water than the weight of the new FG skin, the boat would
> "float higher". I think that this is not particularly likely and suspect
> that a more likely explanation is that he stripped out/emptied the hull
> before he started work and either replaced the old interior with a new,
> lighter interior or that he didn't put as much stuff back in the boat before
> they launched it. But I wasn't there, and I still don't know if a Ferrari is
> faster than a Lamborghini.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Chris Crandall
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:47 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Epoxy over polyester?
>
>
>
>
>
> I want to refine Stefan's posting.
>
> The Vaitses method is as described--a "creation" of a new hull outside
> the exterior of an older, solid wood one. It works, after a fashion, and
> is a "temporary" fix, in that the hull will not last forever, but the
> new life offered by the "topcoat" extends the life of the boat more than
> commensurate with labor, materials, and time required of the technique.
>
> However, this is not a "new" boat, nor is the hull adequate to stand on
> its own. The interior framing of the old boat is still essential, and a
> complete collapse of the interior planking will render the boat
> dangerous at best, useless at worst.
>
> The mechanics of the method creates a watertight hull. What is essential
> is a firm bond between the new skin (that's all it is) and the old,
> otherwise useable boat. This is what the ringnails do--provide a strong
> connection between the old skin and the new skin.
>
> So, the metaphor that is appropriate is a "skin graft". This will
> perform admirably, but it's not also a heart, lung, liver & kidney
> transplant as well--the framing, decking, motor, rigging, sails, and
> their condition determines the value and functionality of the boat. It's
> just a way to keep the water out--it's like wrapping the boat in a stiff
> balloon. (OK, a very stiff balloon).
>
> I'm not sure why he claims the boat will sit higher in the water--that
> seems to defy the laws of physics. Because the skin (polyester, nails,
> fabric) are all heavier than water, and because the skin displaces only
> its own volume, it should ride lower, unless . . . well I can think of
> several bad things that would make this happen, but none good.
>

the boats rode higher in the water because they were dried out.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> I once had to break up a fist fight between two little boys who were arguing
> about whether a Ferrari was faster than a Lamborghini. I mention this
> because I am not at all sure that I know what I'm talking about. As I
> recall, Vaitses put a very substantial fiberglass layup (cloth, mat, and
> more cloth) over an old sloop. He held everything together with ring nails
> driven through the layup (before application of resin) into the old hull. In
> doing so, he increased the thickness of the hull and if the new, 'fatter'
> hull displaced more water than the weight of the new FG skin, the boat would
> "float higher". I think that this is not particularly likely and suspect
> that a more likely explanation is that he stripped out/emptied the hull
> before he started work and either replaced the old interior with a new,
> lighter interior or that he didn't put as much stuff back in the boat before
> they launched it. But I wasn't there, and I still don't know if a Ferrari is
> faster than a Lamborghini.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Chris Crandall
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:47 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Epoxy over polyester?
>
>
>
>
>
> I want to refine Stefan's posting.
>
> The Vaitses method is as described--a "creation" of a new hull outside
> the exterior of an older, solid wood one. It works, after a fashion, and
> is a "temporary" fix, in that the hull will not last forever, but the
> new life offered by the "topcoat" extends the life of the boat more than
> commensurate with labor, materials, and time required of the technique.
>
> However, this is not a "new" boat, nor is the hull adequate to stand on
> its own. The interior framing of the old boat is still essential, and a
> complete collapse of the interior planking will render the boat
> dangerous at best, useless at worst.
>
> The mechanics of the method creates a watertight hull. What is essential
> is a firm bond between the new skin (that's all it is) and the old,
> otherwise useable boat. This is what the ringnails do--provide a strong
> connection between the old skin and the new skin.
>
> So, the metaphor that is appropriate is a "skin graft". This will
> perform admirably, but it's not also a heart, lung, liver & kidney
> transplant as well--the framing, decking, motor, rigging, sails, and
> their condition determines the value and functionality of the boat. It's
> just a way to keep the water out--it's like wrapping the boat in a stiff
> balloon. (OK, a very stiff balloon).
>
> I'm not sure why he claims the boat will sit higher in the water--that
> seems to defy the laws of physics. Because the skin (polyester, nails,
> fabric) are all heavier than water, and because the skin displaces only
> its own volume, it should ride lower, unless . . . well I can think of
> several bad things that would make this happen, but none good.
>

The vaitses method always makes me cringe when I hear about it. I guess in the case of a boat with a really terminal hull, great interior and great rig.... it might,just might, pay to do that, but if you're going to build a new hull over the old one, why not cold mold? The part nobody's talking about is fairing the new polyester hull. That's a huge labor investment, unless you just don't care and decide to paint the raw polyester, in which case you've built yourself a totally unsaleable hulk. Either way, you've built yourself a totally unsaleable boat, so you better love it for the 15 or so years it'll last before that well-sheathed rot finishes its business; but if you fair it, at least it'll look like a boat.

I met Alan Vaitses once in Buzzards Bay, good guy, good boatbuilder, built a lot of Meadowlarks out of wood and glass both. I think his approach to glass was pretty pragmatic, like, here's this new material, seems to work, might as well use it . . . Don't think he spent a lot of time worrying about the long-term pros and cons

Also don't forget that materials-snobbery has escalated over the years--during his time, old wooden boats were little more than give-aways, so his method was in a way a good solution to an old family heirloom, or a free boat. IE, the method was very shoestring-yankee oriented, time-and-place specific. Nowadays the asking prices of good wooden sailboats is about twice that of the equivalent boat in glass, due to the glut of glass boats, the fact that most surviving wooden boats have been rebuilt by now, and the growth of wooden boat snobbery, so in a way his method was very short lived and mostly used (I think) by clans trying get another generation out of the old family Alden (or whatever)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
>
> I want to refine Stefan's posting.
>
> The Vaitses method is as described--a "creation" of a new hull outside
> the exterior of an older, solid wood one. It works, after a fashion, and
> is a "temporary" fix, in that the hull will not last forever, but the
> new life offered by the "topcoat" extends the life of the boat more than
> commensurate with labor, materials, and time required of the technique.
>
> However, this is not a "new" boat, nor is the hull adequate to stand on
> its own. The interior framing of the old boat is still essential, and a
> complete collapse of the interior planking will render the boat
> dangerous at best, useless at worst.
>
> The mechanics of the method creates a watertight hull. What is essential
> is a firm bond between the new skin (that's all it is) and the old,
> otherwise useable boat. This is what the ringnails do--provide a strong
> connection between the old skin and the new skin.
>
> So, the metaphor that is appropriate is a "skin graft". This will
> perform admirably, but it's not also a heart, lung, liver & kidney
> transplant as well--the framing, decking, motor, rigging, sails, and
> their condition determines the value and functionality of the boat. It's
> just a way to keep the water out--it's like wrapping the boat in a stiff
> balloon. (OK, a very stiff balloon).
>
> I'm not sure why he claims the boat will sit higher in the water--that
> seems to defy the laws of physics. Because the skin (polyester, nails,
> fabric) are all heavier than water, and because the skin displaces only
> its own volume, it should ride lower, unless . . . well I can think of
> several bad things that would make this happen, but none good.
>

Since wood boats don't rot from the outside I would say glass the decks and epoxy the interior and paint the outside. Of course there is always the old sayoing that boats rot between wind and water. Wood underwater will not rot. Wod a foot above the water will not rot unless the decks leak.  There is an area where the sea water soaks up into the side planking where there is exactly the right amount of moisture in the wood to cause rot.  I think it's between about 10% and 22% any other amount will not cause rot.  If the sides up about a foot is planked in Locust wood and the decks kept sealed with good ventilation the boat will easy last 100 years. Build frames from locust or lignumvite which is really hard  to work so that leaves locust.  Locust is free and all you have to do is cut it and saw it up or pay someone else to do it.  With the extra hard work you can build the entire boat of locust at no cost. Put her together with locust trunnels and make all her hardware from black locust.  Put a little green heart along the waterline over the hull and she will break ice.  Covering a boat in glass does not make he last longer building from the right materials does.  I have a locust tree 24 inches in diameter and probably 200 years old just waiting for me to harvest her.  The tree would likely build a nice boat.          Doug

On 09/15/2011 10:50 AM, L wrote:

 

 

It always amuses me a little to hear wooden boatbuilders dismiss polyester as outdated technology. 

 

Dude, WE BUILD BOATS OUT OF WOOD!

 

From:daschultz2000<daschultz8275@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:42 AM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Epoxy over polyester?



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "etap28"<dave.irland@...>wrote:
>
> I have complicated feelings about polyester. It wasn't that long ago that all glass boats were built out of polyester....
>


Thank you for the professional input to this discussion.  It certainly makes me rethink the subject.  Now 60 yrs. I remember sheathing wood boats with glass/polyester resin as a teenager, and yes the resin would really set up rapidly.  I don'r remember having any bonding problems.  The other thing I remember doing is painting over the exposed bright wood and glass/poly with epoxy, then, after a thorough washing and light sanding, using oil based paint on the sides and lower hull and spar varnish on the bright work.  That finish held up for years on a trailer boat, stored in a garage when not in use a few weeks a year.

Don





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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "etap28" <dave.irland@...> wrote:

>
> I have complicated feelings about polyester. It wasn't that long ago that all glass boats were built out of polyester....
>

Thank you for the professional input to this discussion. It certainly makes me rethink the subject. Now 60 yrs. I remember sheathing wood boats with glass/polyester resin as a teenager, and yes the resin would really set up rapidly. I don'r remember having any bonding problems. The other thing I remember doing is painting over the exposed bright wood and glass/poly with epoxy, then, after a thorough washing and light sanding, using oil based paint on the sides and lower hull and spar varnish on the bright work. That finish held up for years on a trailer boat, stored in a garage when not in use a few weeks a year.

Don

I want to refine Stefan's posting.

The Vaitses method is as described--a "creation" of a new hull outside
the exterior of an older, solid wood one. It works, after a fashion, and
is a "temporary" fix, in that the hull will not last forever, but the
new life offered by the "topcoat" extends the life of the boat more than
commensurate with labor, materials, and time required of the technique.

However, this is not a "new" boat, nor is the hull adequate to stand on
its own. The interior framing of the old boat is still essential, and a
complete collapse of the interior planking will render the boat
dangerous at best, useless at worst.

The mechanics of the method creates a watertight hull. What is essential
is a firm bond between the new skin (that's all it is) and the old,
otherwise useable boat. This is what the ringnails do--provide a strong
connection between the old skin and the new skin.

So, the metaphor that is appropriate is a "skin graft". This will
perform admirably, but it's not also a heart, lung, liver & kidney
transplant as well--the framing, decking, motor, rigging, sails, and
their condition determines the value and functionality of the boat. It's
just a way to keep the water out--it's like wrapping the boat in a stiff
balloon. (OK, a very stiff balloon).

I'm not sure why he claims the boat will sit higher in the water--that
seems to defy the laws of physics. Because the skin (polyester, nails,
fabric) are all heavier than water, and because the skin displaces only
its own volume, it should ride lower, unless . . . well I can think of
several bad things that would make this happen, but none good.

Thanks Stefan, I believe that's the Name John Colamore y the owner od Hulls Unlimited used for the method he didn't Claim m to have invented it.   But he sure used it.                Doug

On 09/13/2011 04:54 PM, Stefan Topolski wrote:

I've seen this method up close.

That's the Vaitses Method, first invented and proven by the boatbuilder of the same name.  BTW, copper ringnailing secured the polyester to the wooden hull in every successful boat rebuild Vaitses described.

In this day and age carvel planking is a death knell for any boat owner who ain't a millionaire or his own boatwright.  The cost of maintenance, repair, INSURANCE, good wood, copper fasteners et al means carvel's socioeconomic time is past and done.

The Vaitses Method, though crude, is massively solid and successful.  While the wooden hull is strong they become double-hulled tanks that sit even higher in the water.   Then a boat's whole wooden interior could rot away and you're none the worse for it.

All the Best,

Stefan

"One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."    -anonymous

http://www.cottagemed.org

El sep 3, 2011, a las 11:58 am, Douglas Pollard escribió:

As to epoxy over polyester I suspect it is not a good Idea.  I don't know from experience but it has been the opinion of many boat builders that polyester has an oily or waxy surface that epoxy won't stick too well. I was told that if you scrub polyester with a strong solvent that it works better.
From 1970 to about 1992 Hulls Unlimited In Deltaville Va., besides building fine glass boats also covered old wooden boats with glass.  They did some early racing yawls and a few power boats and it was very successful.  They took out the caulking and sanded all the paint off into the wood surface. They never put less than a quarter of an inch of glass on any of the boats and sometimes one half inch, and insisted that was minamal. Of course they were only working with boats over 30ft. There idea was the glass was strong enough that even though the boat was in a weakened condition due to old age and rot the glass would strengthen her. The glass made the boat heavier but it increased the boats size and so it floated higher in the water.  There claimed she was no longer a wooden boat with glass on it, but was instead a glass boat with a wooden interior.
I guess this process was a kind of death-knell of those old boats as the wooden hulls were no longer maintained and probably slowly rotted under the glass over time to the point of being unrepairable. Still it likely extended their lives thirty years or more.  Many of the boats were built in the 1920's and 30's.  Most had at some point been sold to people who had not the money to have them professionally maintained.  Most of those boats, Alden, Crocker and Herrshoff had been built for Railroad magnets and other wealthy families and were very expensive with the very best in materials.
Recently the Kennedy family sailboat was rebuilt at a boatyard in Deltaville.  She having been owned and maintained by such a wealthy family had never been subjected to glassing to cover up a life of poor maintenance.  I wonder if this generation of Kennedys will take care of her? I hope so as she is a beautiful yacht.                                            Doug

On 09/03/2011 10:08 AM, mkriley48 wrote:

I was refering to boats the were sheathed over wood like HUCKINS
dickerson etc.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols<rocketgeek@...>wrote:
>
> My family has a 1950s era Dyer Glamour Girl launch... the hull is still in
> great shape. It needs an engine rebuild or perhaps just a new engine, so it
> hasn't been on the water in a few years.
>
> -p
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:28 PM, mkriley48<mkriley48@...>wrote:
>
> > there are lots of boats that are going on 50 years old with polyester
> > coverings from new that are still going strong.
> > problem arise with bad application and substandard resin.
> > I have built several large deck and cabin assemblies and have done
> > testing on cutouts trying to remove the polyester with a hammer and chisel.
> > It always split the wood before it delaminated.
> > BTW polyester resists high temps better than epoxy. Epoxy will soften and
> > creep at the temps obtained under dark colors in florida, polyester resin
> > does not creep
> > lots of resins today are diluted with too much styrene.
> > mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> > horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> > 282-1349
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> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I've seen this method up close.

       As to epoxy over polyester I suspect it is not a good Idea.  I don't know from experience but it has been the opinion of many boat builders that polyester has an oily or waxy surface that epoxy won't stick too well. I was told that if you scrub polyester with a strong solvent that it works better.
       From 1970 to about 1992 Hulls Unlimited In Deltaville Va., besides building fine glass boats also covered old wooden boats with glass.  They did some early racing yawls and a few power boats and it was very successful.  They took out the caulking and sanded all the paint off into the wood surface. They never put less than a quarter of an inch of glass on any of the boats and sometimes one half inch, and insisted that was minamal. Of course they were only working with boats over 30ft. There idea was the glass was strong enough that even though the boat was in a weakened condition due to old age and rot the glass would strengthen her. The glass made the boat heavier but it increased the boats size and so it floated higher in the water.  There claimed she was no longer a wooden boat with glass on it, but was instead a glass boat with a wooden interior.
        I guess this process was a kind of death-knell of those old boats as the wooden hulls were no longer maintained and probably slowly rotted under the glass over time to the point of being unrepairable. Still it likely extended their lives thirty years or more.  Many of the boats were built in the 1920's and 30's.  Most had at some point been sold to people who had not the money to have them professionally maintained.  Most of those boats, Alden, Crocker and Herrshoff had been built for Railroad magnets and other wealthy families and were very expensive with the very best in materials.  
    Recently the Kennedy family sailboat was rebuilt at a boatyard in Deltaville.  She having been owned and maintained by such a wealthy family had never been subjected to glassing to cover up a life of poor maintenance.  I wonder if this generation of Kennedys will take care of her? I hope so as she is a beautiful yacht.                                            Doug

On 09/03/2011 10:08 AM, mkriley48 wrote:

 

I was refering to boats the were sheathed over wood like HUCKINS
dickerson etc.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols<rocketgeek@...>wrote:
>
> My family has a 1950s era Dyer Glamour Girl launch... the hull is still in
> great shape. It needs an engine rebuild or perhaps just a new engine, so it
> hasn't been on the water in a few years.
>
> -p
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:28 PM, mkriley48<mkriley48@...>wrote:
>
> > there are lots of boats that are going on 50 years old with polyester
> > coverings from new that are still going strong.
> > problem arise with bad application and substandard resin.
> > I have built several large deck and cabin assemblies and have done
> > testing on cutouts trying to remove the polyester with a hammer and chisel.
> > It always split the wood before it delaminated.
> > BTW polyester resists high temps better than epoxy. Epoxy will soften and
> > creep at the temps obtained under dark colors in florida, polyester resin
> > does not creep
> > lots of resins today are diluted with too much styrene.
> > mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> > horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> > 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I was refering to boats the were sheathed over wood like HUCKINS
dickerson etc.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
>
> My family has a 1950s era Dyer Glamour Girl launch... the hull is still in
> great shape. It needs an engine rebuild or perhaps just a new engine, so it
> hasn't been on the water in a few years.
>
> -p
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:28 PM, mkriley48 <mkriley48@...> wrote:
>
> > there are lots of boats that are going on 50 years old with polyester
> > coverings from new that are still going strong.
> > problem arise with bad application and substandard resin.
> > I have built several large deck and cabin assemblies and have done
> > testing on cutouts trying to remove the polyester with a hammer and chisel.
> > It always split the wood before it delaminated.
> > BTW polyester resists high temps better than epoxy. Epoxy will soften and
> > creep at the temps obtained under dark colors in florida, polyester resin
> > does not creep
> > lots of resins today are diluted with too much styrene.
> > mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> > horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> > 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

these are GREAT boats!
I had experience with one that was converted to outboard with a 25 horse on a bracket. The boat handles exceptionally well and stayed completely level from 2 mph to top speed. almost no wave generation.
This would make a very economical boat with very smooth handling.
GREAT BOAT!
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
>
> My family has a 1950s era Dyer Glamour Girl launch... the hull is still in
> great shape. It needs an engine rebuild or perhaps just a new engine, so it
> hasn't been on the water in a few years.
>
> -p
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:28 PM, mkriley48 <mkriley48@...> wrote:
>
> > there are lots of boats that are going on 50 years old with polyester
> > coverings from new that are still going strong.
> > problem arise with bad application and substandard resin.
> > I have built several large deck and cabin assemblies and have done
> > testing on cutouts trying to remove the polyester with a hammer and chisel.
> > It always split the wood before it delaminated.
> > BTW polyester resists high temps better than epoxy. Epoxy will soften and
> > creep at the temps obtained under dark colors in florida, polyester resin
> > does not creep
> > lots of resins today are diluted with too much styrene.
> > mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> > horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> > 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

My family has a 1950s era Dyer Glamour Girl launch... the hull is still in great shape. It needs an engine rebuild or perhaps just a new engine, so it hasn't been on the water in a few years.

there are lots of boats that are going on 50 years old with polyester
coverings from new that are still going strong.
problem arise with bad application and substandard resin.
I have built several large deck and cabin assemblies and have done
testing on cutouts trying to remove the polyester with a hammer and chisel. It always split the wood before it delaminated.
BTW polyester resists high temps better than epoxy. Epoxy will soften and creep at the temps obtained under dark colors in florida, polyester resin does not creep
lots of resins today are diluted with too much styrene.
mike

I have complicated feelings about polyester. It wasn't that long ago that all glass boats were built out of polyester. It's perfectly OK stuff, as long as you understand what it can and can't do. It'd dirt cheap compared to epoxy, you can do two or three times as many layups in the same amount of time, it sands like nobody's business (save massively in sandpaper), and as somebody already pointed out, it doesn't sensitize the skin. Also you can build damn strong hulls out of the cheapest stuff, roving and matt. Yeah--it really stinks. That's what respirators are for! I fixed a 14' hole in a j30 deck/hull with Cflex and polyester--the boat was originally polyester anyway. Vacuum bagged balsa core. These are not considered shabby boats, or weak, and people sail the living c--p of them, though most boatbuilders today turn their noses up at balsa and/or polyester--the upward escalation of materials snobbery. The next project was a C&C Landfall that had giant hurricane holes in the sides--I used vinylester in that one because that's what it was made of originally. That's a step up in quality (stronger, less porous), but much harder to sand (kind of gummy). The next project was a new keel on a 48 footer, and that was WEST all the way. Polyester vs epoxy is to some extent an apples and oranges thing--the stuff I did on that 48 footer would have been impossible with polyester since it would have kicked violently in the middle of the long, involved layups, but structurally it would have been fine. (The end result was an encapsulated keel that will outlast the rest of that crappy hull by ten to one.) I guess I'm just saying--polyester is very versatile, very cheap, very quick to work with, completely indifferent to mixing ratios, is not fussy at all about temperature (throw in a little more catalyst if it's cold out), has built a ton of really long-lived, strong boats, and when laminated on ply will last for longer than most people want to keep an insta-boat anyway. . .
All that said, I wouldn't put the stuff on high grade plywood, but let's say a Gypsy made out of A/C, or a Windsprint, or something of that ilk--heck yeah. Good for 10 or 15 years. I think a lot of the prejudice is the success of the epoxy industry at demonizing polyester--and also the newer boats are all SCRIMP because it saves money and makes faster hulls when you've got a high glass-resin ratio; and SCRIMP (vacuum infusion) wouldn't work with polyester (sets too fast)

The winter before last I almost bought a 35 ft. ketch she was 41 years old and in pristine condition. I went over her and could find no problems with wood or glass. She was glassed inside and out, Strip built absolutly beautiful.  WE couldn't get to gether on price and I wish I had been able to pay more.
    In the 1966 I bought a Japanese built Yokohama 21 that was built in 1956 she was polyester and glass over painted on the inside no glass  or resin inside. Our family grew and she got to small. I sold her to two women and they kept her closed up tight setting in a boat yard.  At 30 years old she need some minor work and was burned up at age 35.  Her glass was still stuck tight but she rotted from the inside.  I had kept her under cover with ventilation for and aft during the winters but she was uncovered all during the Virginia sailing months. So, If I were buying a boat and she was built of good lumber and polyester coated that likely would not stop me. If I were building one and was using big box plywood I would spend the money for epoxy.  If I were building from the best lumber I might build without glass covering of any kind.
    Good wood and good paint and good maintenance and care and a boat will likely last 30 or 40 years anyway.  The problem is, I am not a good enough carpenter to build a boat without glass to cover my louzy fits.                                       Doug

On 09/01/2011 05:17 PM, Mark Albanese wrote:

 

My Winsprint is about 16 years old, epoxy glued and w/ a polyester
bottom. With no special care it's only starting to strip a little
fabric here or there just now.
You could say I got my money's worth. Still, apart from really cheap
experiments, I've used epoxy ever since. The ease of having just one
goo for every job is rather nice.

On Sep 1, 2011, at 1:02 PM, daschultz2000 wrote:

>
> Bill makes an important point. If polyester were as effective,
> people would use it.
>
> With regard to longevity, I know that Jim Michalak has at least his
> Birdwatcher built many years ago with polyester resin. He says his
> habit of storing his boats indoors contributes to their long life.
> I believe him.
>
> But I also know none of these resins survives well in direct sun.
> They all need protection.
>

My Winsprint is about 16 years old, epoxy glued and w/ a polyester
bottom. With no special care it's only starting to strip a little
fabric here or there just now.
You could say I got my money's worth. Still, apart from really cheap
experiments, I've used epoxy ever since. The ease of having just one
goo for every job is rather nice.

On Sep 1, 2011, at 1:02 PM, daschultz2000 wrote:

>
> Bill makes an important point. If polyester were as effective,
> people would use it.
>
> With regard to longevity, I know that Jim Michalak has at least his
> Birdwatcher built many years ago with polyester resin. He says his
> habit of storing his boats indoors contributes to their long life.
> I believe him.
>
> But I also know none of these resins survives well in direct sun.
> They all need protection.
>

Bill makes an important point. If polyester were as effective, people would use it.

With regard to longevity, I know that Jim Michalak has at least his Birdwatcher built many years ago with polyester resin. He says his habit of storing his boats indoors contributes to their long life. I believe him.

But I also know none of these resins survives well in direct sun. They all need protection.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamers@...> wrote:

>...Lately, I can't remember anyone building at home with polyester...

This is my 16 year old son's idea:

I was discussing the pros and cons of both polyester and epoxy resins with him.
He says "Why don't you just build your boat with polyester then coat the whole
thing with epoxy?".

What say you?