Re: Long Term Immersion of Micro-series Salient Keels
I meant rot issues generally (probably about the only reason a Micro gets the chop) Bruce, but mindful that no doubt some would be in the keel. The designed keel is proven mechanically/structurally, if sound.
The consensus appears to be if built/finnished well it'll last. The question then for the inside/outside is "what is the *best* way to do that for lasting effect"?
The consensus appears to be if built/finnished well it'll last. The question then for the inside/outside is "what is the *best* way to do that for lasting effect"?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 4:07 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
>
> >Quite a few have been given the chop due to rot.
>
> I am surprised to read this. I think I have been trying to pay
> attention to reports of rot in Micro keels, and somehow I have missed
> this news.
>
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 4:07 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
attention to reports of rot in Micro keels, and somehow I have missed
this news.
>Quite a few have been given the chop due to rot.I am surprised to read this. I think I have been trying to pay
attention to reports of rot in Micro keels, and somehow I have missed
this news.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
As for other sticky encounters with marine biota, maybe rot too, how about sheathing the keel with copper sheet nailed on? But how, without interfering with any glass sheathing?
>It's not failure in the first instance, but down the track. Quite a few have been given the chop due to rot. Some didn't last long at all. If the keel is almost always immersed in salt water, ie. untrailered, then perhaps that alone may be sufficient to prevent the dastardly rot.
> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
> >
> > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro...
>
>
> Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
> Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
As for other sticky encounters with marine biota, maybe rot too, how about sheathing the keel with copper sheet nailed on? But how, without interfering with any glass sheathing?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <lefebeaver@...> wrote:
> I'm still building a micro following Lenihan's approach - been at it for nearly 10 years now with home maintenance and business travel continuing to get in the way, but I'm not ready to give up just yet. I am following Peter's laminated deadwood keel approach for strength - there are strong currents and shallow rocks in my area, as there are in Peter's home waters on the St. Lawrence river, so I wanted a solid keel for many of the same reasons he did. My boat will be trailered, but I know Peter kept Lestat in the water near Montreal all summer for years, and when I saw the boat after several years of suchCool.
> treatment it still appeared very solid.
> I'm laminating the deadwood out of 2" mahogany with epoxy; I settled on these dimensions after reading Devlin's Boat Building which addresses such things.Devlin's... right. Thanks for the feedback Paul. Hey, good luck with getting that lead done soon.
> Am hoping to pour my lead in the next month or so... get the birdsmouth mainmast together in the basement over winter. Next year.... always next year...
>
> Paul Lefebvre
That's mostly been in fresh water too, hasn't it Bill? Very good. How does one see much inside the keel?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> For the past three years I have kept my LM at a dock for approximately 6 months each year. I have not seen rot in the flooding keel. I did just cut a chunk of rot from the side of my LM, at the water-line near the aft, free-flooding well. But so far the keel is as solid as the day I made it.
> Bill, in Tejas
Justin, if ya gunna have keel/shoe bolts intruding into the water tight volume perhaps ya could have a galvanised steel keel (after Storm Petrel) with a lead filled bulb?
Yes the query relates to very limited trailering, long term immersion in mainly warm salt water, probably shifted over dryland just the once. Occaisional drying anchorages. Maximum reasonable seaworthiness for, say, two to four years.
Yes the query relates to very limited trailering, long term immersion in mainly warm salt water, probably shifted over dryland just the once. Occaisional drying anchorages. Maximum reasonable seaworthiness for, say, two to four years.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jdmeddock" <jmeddock@...> wrote:
> If a little added depth would be acceptable I think a Micro would be a good candidate for a concrete keel. You could cast the scrap lead in the bottom of the keel
> (plombo-cement?!) but that would make recovery of the lead difficult in case of failure.
> But it would solve the much dreaded lead melting problem.
> Maybe a rebar/concrete keel to planned size with the lead bolted on as a shoe to optimize righting moment. Could maybe get by with less lead weight too.
> Build a cheap stuff keel sort of to plan and that is your form (in order to match curve of bottom accurately). Just use the Lenihan keelson , and cast your keel and shoe bolts in the concrete.
>
> I am assuming long-term afloat suggests trailering weight may be of reduced importantance.
>
> Justin
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
> My only suggestion is to glass every surface. Not for strength but because it facilitates making the epoxy thicker, slowing the migration of water on the molecular level.Gotchya. Thanks.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "alefoot" <dgw@...> wrote:
I've come across Swallow Boats 'Bayrider 17' instructions for the water ballast tank internal surfaces before permanent closing up. They apparently call for two additional coats of some WEST System (I assume all ply surfaces already have one coat) followed by two pack epoxy paint suited for continuous immersion.
Is such a two pack paint step really needed, I wonder. Extra insurance?
> Although it seems many Micros are used as trailer boats, I don't recall brief immersion being mentioned as part of the original design spec.The Wolfard ad is suggestive of intermitent immersed recreation time use: "She is easy to trailer and can be pulled by a four cylinder compact car." I recall something also La Rowe wrote about commisioning the design and requesting an easy launch and retrieval amongst the other things for older folk.
> Maybe my poor memory. Anyway, I recall PCB writing that the idea was to avoid unhelpful swelling stresses and unwarranted expense. Our Micro has happily spent months [entire summers] on a mooring, builtThat's good to hear.
> more or less to spec.
> Liberal epoxy coating of the inside of the flooded cavities before closure, exterior glassing below waterline. Doug. fir and MerantiAgain good to hear that.
> marine ply. I would do the same again. Micro is well proven.
I've come across Swallow Boats 'Bayrider 17' instructions for the water ballast tank internal surfaces before permanent closing up. They apparently call for two additional coats of some WEST System (I assume all ply surfaces already have one coat) followed by two pack epoxy paint suited for continuous immersion.
Is such a two pack paint step really needed, I wonder. Extra insurance?
>Speak a the devil... look who's dropped by.
> >...Was Peter's more for perceived increase in strength/durability than to do with continuous immersion? To fill or not to fill?<
>
> You would have to ask Peter for a real answer [he's active on the WoodenBoat forum], but I recall him writing something [I'm paraphrasing] about wanting to do things the 'right way' when he built Lestat.
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Pat <patjah@...> wrote:
In the Long Micro, the 532 pounds of 'down low' lead ballast is
'negated' by 150 lbs of 'down low' air buoyancy, and made less
effective.
The flooded keel can be seen as being as water ballast in the Micro designs.
>This extra flotation is down low, exactly where you don't want it.
>
>
> mousture on the interior. By sealing you gain 150lbs of extra
> flotation which could be offset by internal ballast in the form of
> water tanks or sand bags ect.
In the Long Micro, the 532 pounds of 'down low' lead ballast is
'negated' by 150 lbs of 'down low' air buoyancy, and made less
effective.
The flooded keel can be seen as being as water ballast in the Micro designs.
I decided to seal up the flooding holes in my LM keel. I did this
because when I laminated the ply sides of the keel to the internal
frame I did not get a perfect seal. I found this out later when the
boat was complete and out of curiosity I filled the keel with water. I
imagined that the screws piercing the plywood would expose the ply to
mousture on the interior. By sealing you gain 150lbs of extra
flotation which could be offset by internal ballast in the form of
water tanks or sand bags ect. She is not in the water yet but will let
you all know how she floats
Cheers Pat
because when I laminated the ply sides of the keel to the internal
frame I did not get a perfect seal. I found this out later when the
boat was complete and out of curiosity I filled the keel with water. I
imagined that the screws piercing the plywood would expose the ply to
mousture on the interior. By sealing you gain 150lbs of extra
flotation which could be offset by internal ballast in the form of
water tanks or sand bags ect. She is not in the water yet but will let
you all know how she floats
Cheers Pat
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
> Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"Right you are Bruce - and let's not forget the time factor. When I started building my micro, coming from a background of fine strip canoe and kayak building, I still felt the need to improve on things and make my minimalist plywood sailboat into a gold-plater. But deviating from the plans means lots of time rethinking many things that the designer already took care of for you; following the plans means you can work much more quickly. If I'd stuck to the original plans and scantlings I'd probably have had many happy years sailing my micro by now, instead of having a nearly finished boat still lurking in the boatshed by the garage.
> Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
>
> Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
>
> Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
> isn't always wise.
>
> Isn't good enough good enough?
>
I'd Like to have a LM at a dock!
it's so easy to repair a ply boat......cut out the rot, make a plug,
make a larger backing plate, gube it all up w/epoxy and screw it all
together....better technique reaps better finish
That Micro keel is a typical Bolger jab @ traditional construction...1/4
in ply for a keel! It's Bolger it works
Mike in Catskills
William wrote:
it's so easy to repair a ply boat......cut out the rot, make a plug,
make a larger backing plate, gube it all up w/epoxy and screw it all
together....better technique reaps better finish
That Micro keel is a typical Bolger jab @ traditional construction...1/4
in ply for a keel! It's Bolger it works
Mike in Catskills
William wrote:
>
> For the past three years I have kept my LM at a dock for approximately
> 6 months each year. I have not seen rot in the flooding keel. I did
> just cut a chunk of rot from the side of my LM, at the water-line near
> the aft, free-flooding well. But so far the keel is as solid as the
> day I made it.
> Bill, in Tejas
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of
> keels such as those on the Micro...
> >
> >
> > Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
> > Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
> >
> > Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
> >
> > Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
> > isn't always wise.
> >
> > Isn't good enough good enough?
> >
>
>
For the past three years I have kept my LM at a dock for approximately 6 months each year. I have not seen rot in the flooding keel. I did just cut a chunk of rot from the side of my LM, at the water-line near the aft, free-flooding well. But so far the keel is as solid as the day I made it.
Bill, in Tejas
Bill, in Tejas
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
> >
> > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro...
>
>
> Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
> Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
>
> Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
>
> Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
> isn't always wise.
>
> Isn't good enough good enough?
>
If a little added depth would be acceptable I think a Micro would be a good candidate for a concrete keel. You could cast the scrap lead in the bottom of the keel
(plombo-cement?!) but that would make recovery of the lead difficult in case of failure.
But it would solve the much dreaded lead melting problem.
Maybe a rebar/concrete keel to planned size with the lead bolted on as a shoe to optimize righting moment. Could maybe get by with less lead weight too.
Build a cheap stuff keel sort of to plan and that is your form (in order to match curve of bottom accurately). Just use the Lenihan keelson , and cast your keel and shoe bolts in the concrete.
I am assuming long-term afloat suggests trailering weight may be of reduced importantance.
Justin
(plombo-cement?!) but that would make recovery of the lead difficult in case of failure.
But it would solve the much dreaded lead melting problem.
Maybe a rebar/concrete keel to planned size with the lead bolted on as a shoe to optimize righting moment. Could maybe get by with less lead weight too.
Build a cheap stuff keel sort of to plan and that is your form (in order to match curve of bottom accurately). Just use the Lenihan keelson , and cast your keel and shoe bolts in the concrete.
I am assuming long-term afloat suggests trailering weight may be of reduced importantance.
Justin
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
> >
> > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro...
>
>
> Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
> Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
>
> Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
>
> Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
> isn't always wise.
>
> Isn't good enough good enough?
>
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
isn't always wise.
Isn't good enough good enough?
>Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
> What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro...
Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
isn't always wise.
Isn't good enough good enough?
> There's Peter Lenihan's documented approach, if still available online...Peter's articles are in the Duckworks archives:
>
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro2/index.htm
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro/index.htm
-Paul
> What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro and Long Micro if they aren't only immersed periodically for relatively short durations? Would there be any noticeable difference in requirements for permanent immersion (6 months plus, say) in either salt or fresh water environments?I'm still building a micro following Lenihan's approach - been at it for nearly 10 years now with home maintenance and business travel continuing to get in the way, but I'm not ready to give up just yet. I am following Peter's laminated deadwood keel approach for strength - there are strong currents and shallow rocks in my area, as there are in Peter's home waters on the St. Lawrence river, so I wanted a solid keel for many of the same reasons he did. My boat will be trailered, but I know Peter kept Lestat in the water near Montreal all summer for years, and when I saw the boat after several years of such treatment it still appeared very solid.
>
> There's Peter Lenihan's documented approach, if still available online, which, if memeory serves, was approved by PCB. Are there others? Was Peter's more for perceived increase in strength/durability than to do with continuous immersion? To fill or not to fill?
>
I'm laminating the deadwood out of 2" mahogany with epoxy; I settled on these dimensions after reading Devlin's Boat Building which addresses such things.
Am hoping to pour my lead in the next month or so... get the birdsmouth mainmast together in the basement over winter. Next year.... always next year...
Paul Lefebvre
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@> wrote:My only suggestion is to glass every surface. Not for strength but because it facilitates making the epoxy thicker, slowing the migration of water on the molecular level. This may mean glassing plywood before assembly, and wrapping edges. Obviously it complicates the building process.
> >
> > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro and Long Micro if they aren't only immersed periodically for relatively short durations?.....<
>
Don
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
>Although it seems many Micros are used as trailer boats, I don't recall brief immersion being mentioned as part of the original design spec. Maybe my poor memory. Anyway, I recall PCB writing that the idea was to avoid unhelpful swelling stresses and unwarranted expense. Our Micro has happily spent months [entire summers] on a mooring, built more or less to spec. Liberal epoxy coating of the inside of the flooded cavities before closure, exterior glassing below waterline. Doug. fir and Meranti marine ply. I would do the same again. Micro is well proven.
> What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro and Long Micro if they aren't only immersed periodically for relatively short durations?<
>...Was Peter's more for perceived increase in strength/durability than to do with continuous immersion? To fill or not to fill?<You would have to ask Peter for a real answer [he's active on the WoodenBoat forum], but I recall him writing something [I'm paraphrasing] about wanting to do things the 'right way' when he built Lestat.
What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro and Long Micro if they aren't only immersed periodically for relatively short durations? Would there be any noticeable difference in requirements for permanent immersion (6 months plus, say) in either salt or fresh water environments?
There's Peter Lenihan's documented approach, if still available online, which, if memeory serves, was approved by PCB. Are there others? Was Peter's more for perceived increase in strength/durability than to do with continuous immersion? To fill or not to fill?
There's Peter Lenihan's documented approach, if still available online, which, if memeory serves, was approved by PCB. Are there others? Was Peter's more for perceived increase in strength/durability than to do with continuous immersion? To fill or not to fill?